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reflir
Oct 29, 2004

So don't. Stay here with me.

A Nice Boy posted:

I liked you better a few years ago when you were the quirky Harry Potter guy I cheered for during that one TV show. :(

:(

It's just that the more time passes, the more I loathe having read the Mistborn books. The first one started off really well so I stuck with it till the end of the series, but when I made that decision I didn't yet know the end was buried underneath a mountain of bloody feces and medical waste. The quotes about Sanderson's inability to be funny really drive home what I hated so much about Vin (as well as most of the peripheral characters). Now see, he just can't write real people, my dear boy. Compare Vin to how Joe Abercrombie writes Ferro Maljinn. If Sanderson was capable of living in reality, that's what Vin would've been like. Instead we get this weird and immature half-person who worries about stupid poo poo no one cares about. Also loving Sazed jesus christ. There were some good things, like how he subverted the 'I must sacrifice my power because that's always the best option' trope, or how he initially characterized Vin, but they were buried in mounds of crap and things that pissed me off and it just wasn't worth it in the end.

I actually picked the books up because I liked his work on WoT, but now I realize that's because he's only capable of writing one kind of female character. Egwene = Vin = Nynaeve = that princess from Elantris, which works the first time you read it in a world where it makes sense (and with a character that already has a well established persona so that it's just another layer rather than the entirety of her being) but then that credibility goes over the edge of a cliff as soon as you see it again.

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A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

reflir posted:

:(

It's just that the more time passes, the more I loathe having read the Mistborn books. The first one started off really well so I stuck with it till the end of the series, but when I made that decision I didn't yet know the end was buried underneath a mountain of bloody feces and medical waste. The quotes about Sanderson's inability to be funny really drive home what I hated so much about Vin (as well as most of the peripheral characters). Now see, he just can't write real people, my dear boy. Compare Vin to how Joe Abercrombie writes Ferro Maljinn. If Sanderson was capable of living in reality, that's what Vin would've been like. Instead we get this weird and immature half-person who worries about stupid poo poo no one cares about. Also loving Sazed jesus christ. There were some good things, like how he subverted the 'I must sacrifice my power because that's always the best option' trope, or how he initially characterized Vin, but they were buried in mounds of crap and things that pissed me off and it just wasn't worth it in the end.

I actually picked the books up because I liked his work on WoT, but now I realize that's because he's only capable of writing one kind of female character. Egwene = Vin = Nynaeve = that princess from Elantris, which works the first time you read it in a world where it makes sense (and with a character that already has a well established persona so that it's just another layer rather than the entirety of her being) but then that credibility goes over the edge of a cliff as soon as you see it again.

I completely agree on basically all points, although I don't think it bothers me overall as much. I think he's very good at worldbuilding, and his plots are interesting enough to make the books worth reading, but they're nowhere close to the level of the genre greats who're working right now, like Abercrombie/Erikson/Martin. In ten years, I'll be rereading the Malazans or A Song of Ice and Fire, but I doubt I'll ever reread Mistborn.

And I was kidding about liking you better before. :)

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


Yeah I really really like the Mistborn series, i'm halfway through the third book, very much looking forward to steampunk mistborn in Alloy of Law.

kissyboots13
Feb 16, 2010

WHY is this HAPPENING to me?!


A Nice Boy posted:

I completely agree on basically all points, although I don't think it bothers me overall as much. I think he's very good at worldbuilding, and his plots are interesting enough to make the books worth reading, but they're nowhere close to the level of the genre greats who're working right now, like Abercrombie/Erikson/Martin. In ten years, I'll be rereading the Malazans or A Song of Ice and Fire, but I doubt I'll ever reread Mistborn.

And I was kidding about liking you better before. :)

I wonder if writing the epic Stormlight Archives will give him time to develop his character writing skills? I really enjoyed the first one (even though it was insanely long) and am interested in seeing where it all goes, and maybe writing such a long series will give him a chance to build on the skills he has.

pakman
Jun 26, 2011



kissyboots13 posted:

I wonder if writing the epic Stormlight Archives will give him time to develop his character writing skills? I really enjoyed the first one (even though it was insanely long) and am interested in seeing where it all goes, and maybe writing such a long series will give him a chance to build on the skills he has.

The only character I didn't like in Way of Kings was Shallan. She just seemed to incredibly flat. With her newfound soulcasting like Jasnah, she will be fleshed out into something more than a girl looking to fill a family debt and killed her father in the process. I also hope that the characters don't become a mouthpiece for his personal beliefs like Terry Goodkind did with the Sword of Truth series.

treeboy
Nov 13, 2004

James T. Kirk was a great man, but that was another life.


pakman posted:

I also hope that the characters don't become a mouthpiece for his personal beliefs like Terry Goodkind did with the Sword of Truth series.

They haven't so far in any of his books, I'd be surprised if they suddenly started now. The lack of sex and swearing is about the only tell for that.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



treeboy posted:

They haven't so far in any of his books, I'd be surprised if they suddenly started now. The lack of sex and swearing is about the only tell for that.

Which isn't too terribly out of place for fantasy either, although a bit old fashioned.

NicelyNice
Feb 13, 2004

citrus


treeboy posted:

They haven't so far in any of his books, I'd be surprised if they suddenly started now. The lack of sex and swearing is about the only tell for that.

The lack of sex in fantasy is kind of refreshing considering how it's usually written

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


My only complaint is that sex is a normal human activity that happens all the loving time. The only time it really appeared in Mistborn, it was rape through prostitution that almost always resulted in murder. Sex is only portrayed negatively. In Way of Kings, it's the noble and honorable thing to deny sex. Yeah, this kind of thing really does happen, but there's no counterweight to it.

I think there was a brief mention of Vin and Elend doing something after they got married, but it was really subtle.

It's not just the lack of sex, it's the lack of realistic relationships between the characters.

Wheel of Time is probably not the best example, but Jordan doesn't pretend that the people don't have sex. He doesn't let his Catholic sensibilities mar his writing. The sex is barely described on the page, but it's obviously there, and it only gets weird once.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!



Haraksha posted:

My only complaint is that sex is a normal human activity that happens all the loving time. The only time it really appeared in Mistborn, it was rape through prostitution that almost always resulted in murder. Sex is only portrayed negatively. In Way of Kings, it's the noble and honorable thing to deny sex. Yeah, this kind of thing really does happen, but there's no counterweight to it.

I think there was a brief mention of Vin and Elend doing something after they got married, but it was really subtle.

It's not just the lack of sex, it's the lack of realistic relationships between the characters.

Wheel of Time is probably not the best example, but Jordan doesn't pretend that the people don't have sex. He doesn't let his Catholic sensibilities mar his writing. The sex is barely described on the page, but it's obviously there, and it only gets weird once.

There was sex behind the scenes in Mistborn too. There were brothels mentioned all over the place, Elan and Vin certainly got it on, Spook was chasing girls, Ham is married with kids, Breeze and that one annoying noble girl were an item, one of Elan's friends was a notorious womanizer...and so on.

The negative rape/murder aspect was marked as a failing of society rather than 'sex is bad' as well.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


The brothels were mentioned, but in almost all cases they were mentioned in the context of being places nobles went for sport and all of the prostitutes were murdered after a couple of years.

Characters were definitely couples, but everything was handled with kiddy gloves. There's basically only one sentence in the books that makes mention of the fact that Elend and Vin had a sex life. The closest thing to an intimate scene with them was the nauseating dance sequence in Hero of Ages.

Spook chased two girls in the book, Vin and that Misting sister who was sent to kill him. There is never anything physical between these characters.

Ham is an even worse example. He had a wife, and children, and they were constantly kept off screen. They're not part of the story. They're not part of his life. They're basically there just to give him character background. They're a trait on his character sheet that provides some penalty or bonus.

I don't need detailed descriptions of sex. I want acknowledgement of human behaviors. I want society to reflect reality to some degree. Just because characters are couples doesn't really fix the problem in the first place. Male and female characters constantly act weird and unnaturally around each other. The romances are all incredibly naive and feel like the kind of thing I would have written in junior high.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Uh, Dalinar and Navani do get together in Way of Kings. It's clear that the "noble and honorable thing" you refer to is Dalinar's own expressed opinion which he, by the end of the book, ends up feeling was misplaced/misguided.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



Haraksha posted:

I don't need detailed descriptions of sex. I want acknowledgement of human behaviors. I want society to reflect reality to some degree. Just because characters are couples doesn't really fix the problem in the first place. Male and female characters constantly act weird and unnaturally around each other. The romances are all incredibly naive and feel like the kind of thing I would have written in junior high.

Well what do you want though? Should Vin be telling people she got railed last night? It's either on camera or it isn't, and when it is, well, "Ahh. Urrr. Ahhh. Urrrr." is about the average fantasy novel sex scene. I.e. loving painful to read. I'd rather it just be alluded to that it happened rather than it just be bad.

I'm really not bothered by the lack of sex or whatever in Sanderson's novels, particularly Mistborn which, while it isn't exactly YA, isn't that far from it, so it's sort of to be expected.

Sort of the same thing goes for Elantris. Yeah Sanderson does these sort of fairy tale romances where everyone acts all old fashioned, but that's a pretty big part of this genre before Gurm and a few other modern fantasy writers came along.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


arioch posted:

Uh, Dalinar and Navani do get together in Way of Kings. It's clear that the "noble and honorable thing" you refer to is Dalinar's own expressed opinion which he, by the end of the book, ends up feeling was misplaced/misguided.

I guess what I mean mostly is that I'm really sick of these long drawn out romances or the whole, "Will they, won't they," schtick. I'm sure some romances in medieval times really were drawn out, courtly affairs, but that doesn't account for all of the daily encounters men and women are going to have.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

So let me get this straight: you want nothing more or less than random casual sex in your fantasy series? And it doesn't have to be detailed, anatomically correct, emotional, or anything, but something like "a golden lily flower bloomed in the night" ala Robert Jordan will do? (Never mind that that was about 9 books worth of "will they, won't they")

Can you just like, get out of this thread already? Go back to your lemoncakes and incestual child molestation or whatever the gently caress sexually healthy thing Martin's doing, he's a king of good writing anyway, not like us plebian Sanderson fans.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Jun 27, 2011

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!



I'll hand you Ham's relationship as being "a note on his character sheet" but the rest... what do you want? I personally like sex handled with some class instead of GRRM and his Mryish swamps.

And you completely ignored the two people I mentioned who are blatantly getting it on: Breeze and that friend of Elan's whose name I can't recall.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



arioch posted:

Can you just like, get out of this thread already? Go back to your lemoncakes and incestual child molestation or whatever the gently caress sexually healthy thing Martin's doing, he's a king of good writing anyway, not like us plebian Sanderson fans.

Jesus dude, who had graphic fantasy novel sex in your cornflakes this morning? Lighten up.



Haraksha posted:

I guess what I mean mostly is that I'm really sick of these long drawn out romances or the whole, "Will they, won't they," schtick. I'm sure some romances in medieval times really were drawn out, courtly affairs, but that doesn't account for all of the daily encounters men and women are going to have.

Arioch's outburst aside, do you read much fantasy that isn't Gurm? What you are describing right there is basically a staple of the genre. It's ok if you don't like it, but it's legitimately A Thing. Sanderson has his faults, but this really isn't one of them.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


I have said plenty of times that there's lots of things about Sanderson I like, but as others have echoed his dialog and characterizations are weak and sometimes stuff leans close to YA.

I don't expect random casual sex. In WoT, there was lots of stuff going on with different characters, it was never explicit, but it was there, and it was there pretty early (just not with Rand or Perrin immediately).

Sanderson frequently relies on long, drawn out romances that are punctuated by cheesy dialog while sex itself is often vilified. That's all I'm saying.

People meet each other. They get together after a short period. Sometimes they stay together, sometimes they don't. Yes, this is fantasy. Things aren't going to be like the real world. I should probably just get over it.

His world building is fantastic. His magic systems are interesting. He's fantastic at putting together a plot. I just want him to work on some of the things in the middle so I have a reason to keep caring about the big details.

Edit: Also, I'm certainly not heralding GRRM's perspectives on sex as the pinnacle of the genre. I just like the fact that he doesn't mind making mention of it or acknowledging the fact that people in positions of power gently caress a lot. But this isn't particularly constructive so let's just drop it and talk about pushing flared metal or something.

Edit2:

IRQ posted:

Arioch's outburst aside, do you read much fantasy that isn't Gurm? What you are describing right there is basically a staple of the genre. It's ok if you don't like it, but it's legitimately A Thing. Sanderson has his faults, but this really isn't one of them.

Yeah, I get that. I read enough fantasy, less than a lot of you guys though, and some stuff is cross genre (like Stephenson). I guess I dislike when things become A Thing and like when authors try to break from the norm is all. If it's not strictly a Sanderson thing, then whatever.

Atlas Hugged fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jun 27, 2011

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



Haraksha posted:

Sanderson frequently relies on long, drawn out romances that are punctuated by cheesy dialog while sex itself is often vilified.

Where does he vilify sex?

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Cartoon Man posted:

Where does he vilify sex?

It's fine to disagree with me on this, but I just found it odd that during the Mistborn books the only times sex was really ever prominently discussed it was in the context of prostitutes being pimped out to the degenerate nobility and then murdered. Later, we find out that this was done to allow Mistings to be born to produce new Inquisitors, so it was a tool of Ruin.

If you think I'm reading too much into it, fine. It was just something that caught my attention and it seemed relevant to discuss when someone made mention of Sanderson doing his best not to let his own beliefs leak into the books.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



I don't think basically raping the Skaa counts as vilifying sex so much as it does vilifying the nobility.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Like I said, I'm probably reading too much into it.

treeboy
Nov 13, 2004

James T. Kirk was a great man, but that was another life.


IRQ posted:

I don't think basically raping the Skaa counts as vilifying sex so much as it does vilifying the nobility.

i would have to agree. I think in this instance you're using the absence of evidence as evidence of absence. You've taken "The only sex he mentions is rape with a side of murder" and turned that into essentially "all the sex in his books is rape and murder" and then further into "he wants us to think that sex is evil like rape and murder"

Never once did i think "drat sex is evil" i did however comment more than once on how hosed up the society was.


edit: i should probably take this random opportunity to point out that mormons actually love sex, it's just the unmarried kind they have a 'problem' with, so he doesn't really have much of an agenda anyway...

treeboy fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jun 27, 2011

pakman
Jun 26, 2011



I've never had a problem with sex in fantasy/sci-fi, I have a problem with the way it is clumsily handled or the way that it feels like the author is living out his or her own fantasy through the characters. In my opinion, I think that it more often detracts from the story rather than add anything significant.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


Affi posted:

Yeah I really really like the Mistborn series, i'm halfway through the third book, very much looking forward to steampunk mistborn in Alloy of Law.

Having read the end of the series I just can't look forward to it as much :( Victorian tech mistborn sounds really loving awesome but if there isn't mist and ashes then it ruins the whole "wow this is a really cool dystopian world" feeling I had starting the books.

edit; Which Sanderson book should I get next? Warbreaker? Way of Kings? Elantris?

Affi fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jun 27, 2011

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



There is mist, but no ashes.

You can read the preview chapters if your curious.
http://www.tor.com/stories/2011/06/the-alloy-of-law-excerpt

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

Don't forget about Warbreaker. It had some pretty clearly stated sex stuff, such as when the princess who has to marry the God King is simulating the sex night every night, moaning and bouncing on the bed. He even describes in detail how she builds, then kind of screams at the end or whatever, then stops. So, it's not like he's not acknowledging that sex and orgasms and such exist. He just chooses not to write about it all the time.

If he truly did pretend that sex didn't exist or something, I'd be way more irritated about it. He knows it's there, he just doesn't go off on it for pages.

McGrady
Jun 27, 2003

The greatest lurker of all the lower class lurkers.

College Slice

Affi posted:

edit; Which Sanderson book should I get next? Warbreaker? Way of Kings? Elantris?

I think The Way of Kings is his best book so far.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


McGrady posted:

I think The Way of Kings is his best book so far.

But.. that is book 1 of 10 right? Which ones are finished? Warbreaker is complete right? That's only one book right? I somehow don't want to read Elantris.. so i'll postpone it.

Clinton1011
Jul 11, 2007


Affi posted:

But.. that is book 1 of 10 right? Which ones are finished? Warbreaker is complete right? That's only one book right? I somehow don't want to read Elantris.. so i'll postpone it.

Warbreaker and Elantris are complete, he might release follow ups later on but right now they are stand alone books. Warbreaker is free on his site and Elantris was his first book. People say Elantris is his weakest book but it is my favorite book next to The Way of Kings.

Jorenko
Jun 6, 2004

I think you're just mad 'cause you're single.

A Nice Boy posted:

Don't forget about Warbreaker. It had some pretty clearly stated sex stuff, such as when the princess who has to marry the God King is simulating the sex night every night, moaning and bouncing on the bed. He even describes in detail how she builds, then kind of screams at the end or whatever, then stops. So, it's not like he's not acknowledging that sex and orgasms and such exist. He just chooses not to write about it all the time.

If he truly did pretend that sex didn't exist or something, I'd be way more irritated about it. He knows it's there, he just doesn't go off on it for pages.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm 100% on your guys' side about this: he shows it enough, and all that. But it's interesting to note that Warbreaker was the first book he wrote after he lost his V card (on his honeymoon, no less), and that it had the most explicit and close to on-screen sex yet.

404GoonNotFound
Aug 6, 2006

The McRib is back!?!?


Affi posted:

But.. that is book 1 of 10 right? Which ones are finished? Warbreaker is complete right? That's only one book right? I somehow don't want to read Elantris.. so i'll postpone it.

He's got a Warbreaker sequel planned and it's on his "stuff I'll get to eventually" list. After the second mistborn trilogy and Stormlight books two and three.

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



Clinton1011 posted:

Warbreaker and Elantris are complete, he might release follow ups later on but right now they are stand alone books. Warbreaker is free on his site and Elantris was his first book. People say Elantris is his weakest book but it is my favorite book next to The Way of Kings.

I agree with this man. Hrathen is one of my favorite Sanderson characters in all of his books, but I didn't feel this way untill I re-read Elantris a second time.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



McGrady posted:

I think The Way of Kings is his best book so far.

It's his weakest book so far, mostly because it's 99% world building, setup, and pointless flashbacks. When there's 2-3 more Stormlight books out it will be a solid recommendation though.

kissyboots13
Feb 16, 2010

WHY is this HAPPENING to me?!


404GoonNotFound posted:

He's got a Warbreaker sequel planned

Awesome, because it is actually my favorite. I really liked it, but felt like it was somehow incomplete and wanted to know more about the magic system and the world so a Warbreaker sequel is the best news I've had all day.

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

kissyboots13 posted:

Awesome, because it is actually my favorite. I really liked it, but felt like it was somehow incomplete and wanted to know more about the magic system and the world so a Warbreaker sequel is the best news I've had all day.

No poo poo, and right at the end he introduces some awesome stuff about what Nightblood can do, and then never comes back to it! Blargh!

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



A Nice Boy posted:

No poo poo, and right at the end he introduces some awesome stuff about what Nightblood can do, and then never comes back to it! Blargh!

The next book is tentatively titled Nightblood so your in luck.

kissyboots13
Feb 16, 2010

WHY is this HAPPENING to me?!


Cartoon Man posted:

The next book is tentatively titled Nightblood so your in luck.

Amazing. I'd be down for a prequel, honestly. Although if it's a side project we might not see it for a long time.

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



He's finishing up WoT the rest of this year and possibly most of next year from the way things are going. Then he said he plans to write Stormlight book 2 (of 10). After that he will alternate writing new stuff with a Stormlight book every year or so. And by new stuff, it could mean sequels to Mistborn/Elantris/Warbreaker, or it could be brand new stuff in the overall multiverse cosmere.

This is the blog post you should read for more info, though its starting to get a little dated. He may of changed his mind about things since then.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/925/Another-Long-and-Rambling-Post-on-Future-Books

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Streebs
Dec 6, 2003

RIP

IRQ posted:

It's his weakest book so far, mostly because it's 99% world building, setup, and pointless flashbacks. When there's 2-3 more Stormlight books out it will be a solid recommendation though.

I thought it was his best book by far. Yes there is a lot of world building and setup but there is a contained storyline and the world building is pretty loving awesome

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