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leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

I live. I die. I live again.

It is really weird to see a guy described as "one of the leading authorities on LeBron James".

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Dick Williams
Aug 25, 2005


The culture at ESPN is basically the sports version of Network

morestuff
Aug 2, 2008

You can't stop what's coming


I CHALLENGE THEE posted:

It has nothing to do with coverage. It reads like they want full editorial control, something they're not going to get from an affiliated blogger.

Then why agree to the TrueHoop Network in the first place? They didn't dissolve the network; they just replaced Hot Hot Hoops with their internal Heat Index.

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

I live. I die. I live again.

If THN is like the Sweet Spot for baseball, it was probably started as a labor of love by one of their basketball writers. Now the dudes in suits have decided that they have to give the Heat Index all of the possible Miami Heat related traffic and welp.

Dick Williams
Aug 25, 2005


morestuff posted:

Then why agree to the TrueHoop Network in the first place? They didn't dissolve the network; they just replaced Hot Hot Hoops with their internal Heat Index.

Part of it is what leo said but I believe that it has more to do with the fact that ESPN has invested a ton of time into the LeBron brand and have been working extremely hard to protect him despite all of the recent PR gaffes, including completely killing stories that cast him in a negative light.

After seeing who they're bringing on, including the aforementioned "LeBron expert", it seems like ESPN is nervous about what a blogger with full independent control would write about him. It's not about the rest of the TrueHoop network at all, the rest are irrelevant.

ESPN has a monopoly on information and they don't want anyone, no matter how small, infringing on it, especially when it comes to their hottest commodities.

Dick Williams fucked around with this message at Oct 6, 2010 around 17:45

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?


OK, if anyone wants to get angry really fast, listen to the Dino Costa show on Mad Dog Radio (on XM) one night. It's so terrible. Basically the host is one of those guys who hates everyone else on the network, to the point where he hijacks the sports updates they do every 30 minutes or so just to prove that he can get away with it.

That, and he's a really racist and bigoted guy, who attracts lots of callers who are the same way.

By some miracle he hasn't quite been fired yet.

barkingclam
Jun 20, 2007


This might be too inside baseball for even this thread, but here's a memo detailing what what Gawker Media - Deadspin, in particular - pays for scoops.

Personally I'm a little iffy on this. I used to work in an online newsroom, so I have an idea what an exclusive can mean in terms of revenue, but I'm entirely uncomfortable with paying for news. If you're giving money for a hot tip, there's always the idea that people are giving you want they want or trying to juice up a story a little to get some extra dough. That said, Deadspin is basically the tabloid of sports journalism and their history of paying for exclusives is nothing new. But I've never seen it laid down as editorial policy, either.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


Do blogs by well known stupid people count as Sports Journalism?

Here's a piece by Will Carroll that starts off mentioning that Roy Halladay doesn't know what his xFIP is, so advanced statisticians don't know how to tell stories... or something?

http://presscoverage.us/soapbox/the...g-the-simpsons/

Will Carroll posted:

Statheads will never let a good story get in the way of a fact, a decimal place, or a holier-than-thou snark. Don’t know how to do a multivariate regression or a pivot table in Excel? Heathen. They’d certainly never let a good game get in the way of their viewpoint. Put up against Joe Morgan, ex-players, and an entrenched viewpoint ripe to be questioned, statheads might have figured out the right algorithms, but they never figured out the right formula for capturing anyone’s attention. I’m sure some out there – a small, rounding-error kind of niche – like their baseball on an 8-bit platter but most are captured by stories. The statheads never had one.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010

DUMB FUCK

Did he actually write that or did he get his dad to do it for him?

chutwig
May 28, 2001

BURLAP SATCHEL OF CRACKERJACKS

I feel like the anti-SABR types think that watching baseball to a stathead is like staring into the Matrix, where all we see are glowing green lines of numbers. They seem to have trouble recognizing that it's something that adds to the game-watching experience and that nobody but the most Stallmanesque of sabermetricians, if they even exist, would seriously suggest that it is in any way a substitute for watching the game or that people find statcrunching to be more fun than watching a game.

However, I suspect they do this because they have trouble actually attacking the notion of advanced statistics, so instead they set up this strawman of a basement-dwelling STATA geek who doesn't even watch games but just compiles numbers all the time and attack that instead. Whether or not advanced stats capture everyone's attention is not and has never been the issue. It's whether it can capture the attention of people whose baseball decisions matter that's important. I don't give a crap whether Will Carroll knows anything about SIERA or xFIP, but I would like it a lot if Ruben Amaro understood and used them in his pitcher evaluations.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


I have never heard of Will Carroll before, that guy must not be able to tell stories.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010

DUMB FUCK

chutwig posted:

they set up this strawman of a basement-dwelling STATA geek who doesn't even watch games but just compiles numbers all the time

I am the strawman.

Groucho Marxist
Dec 9, 2005

Do you smell what The Mauk is cooking?


MassRayPer posted:

I have never heard of Will Carroll before, that guy must not be able to tell stories.

This isn't usually his racket, his thing is asking his dad how ACLs work and passing himself of as an injury expert.

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


I wonder what Will Carroll thinks of the Sterger/Favre affair....

injuryexpert posted:

I once underestimated Jenn Sterger too: http://thejuice.baseballtoaster.com...ves/433202.html

I don't ever use :stare:, but uhhhh

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010

DUMB FUCK

Yeah that poo poo was weird as hell.

seiferguy
Jun 9, 2005

FLAWED
INTUITION




Toilet Rascal

I CHALLENGE THEE posted:

The culture at ESPN is basically the sports version of Network

Tony Kornheiser is Howard Beale?

chutwig
May 28, 2001

BURLAP SATCHEL OF CRACKERJACKS

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

I am the strawman.

Confession time: I don't know much about Excel and certainly don't know how to do a multivariate regression.

jeffersonlives posted:

I don't ever use :stare:, but uhhhh

"Wow, I thought since she's not ugly she'd have to be really stupid! What a wondrous discovery that she wasn't Paris Hilton after all!"

Medical Sword
May 23, 2005

Goghing, Goghing, gone


I think Will Carroll is probably the kind of human being who is so completely loving dumb and removed from reality as to believe that those kind of statements about a person are endearing to her as a woman rather than sexist and degrading.

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


chutwig posted:

"Wow, I thought since she's not ugly she'd have to be really stupid! What a wondrous discovery that she wasn't Paris Hilton after all!"

I'm more :stare: that Carroll actually posted that article himself, usually that's the article that third parties link to show how much of a nimrod he is.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010

DUMB FUCK

chutwig posted:

Confession time: I don't know much about Excel and certainly don't know how to do a multivariate regression.

SHUN.

Don't worry Excel is not great.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


chutwig posted:

Confession time: I don't know much about Excel and certainly don't know how to do a multivariate regression.

The only thing I understand in this sentence is


Is Sabermetrics right for me?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010

DUMB FUCK

Badfinger posted:

The only thing I understand in this sentence is


Is Sabermetrics right for me?

best stick to the bunting cages son

Tender Bender
Sep 17, 2004



Badfinger posted:

Do blogs by well known stupid people count as Sports Journalism?

Here's a piece by Will Carroll that starts off mentioning that Roy Halladay doesn't know what his xFIP is, so advanced statisticians don't know how to tell stories... or something?

http://presscoverage.us/soapbox/the...g-the-simpsons/

This is amazing, each separate paragraph is a different detached thought that never quite completes itself. I wish FJM was still around just for this.

quote:

Geek met geek when Bill James’ animated self showed up on The Simpsons this weekend. While that was happening, I was at a baseball game.

Something about baseball stats was on tv last night. Fortunately I wasn't watching tv because I love baseball

quote:

The Phillies are headed deeper into the playoffs and somewhere in their front office, they have a guy that understands the most advanced numbers, has Fangraphs bookmarked, and will help Ruben Amaro this offseason. The players? They just have their big paychecks, big houses, and might someday sit where Joe Morgan or Mitch Williams is sitting now. The statheads? Unless they find their story or their storyteller, right where they are now.

Players and front office types make money off baseball. The statheads... what? And where do normal fans fit in? Do they get mansions or do they "right where they are now"?

quote:

Me? I was never one that followed and now, Prospectus in my rear view, I can easily reject that false god. I’m not rejecting facts, just the inability to tell a story, see beyond a spreadsheet, or acknowledge that other people have some things to teach me, whether it’s a scout, a Trainer, or a writer who’s been watching ball games since before VORP was a twinkle in Keith Woolner’s eye.

I’d rather watch Halladay pitch anyway.

Statheads will never know the joy of watching Halladay pitch.

Actually with the frequent mentions of leaving BP behind it feels like he watched Mad Men last night and thought "Oh that's cool I too will write an open letter about how I have evolved beyond my former employer/client".

Okposolypse
Jan 1, 2009

by Debbie Metallica


I didn't find that article to be so bad. Yeah, its basically telling fans to not read into stats cause its a waste of time, but its focus is on the idea that as fans we should focus on the story, as players they should focus on creating the story, and as journalists we should focus on telling it. The stats behind it all are the GM's job. I disagree, I think understanding the stats makes for a more informed fan, but its not straight up saying its all BS.

Though I am also much more optimistic.

Medical Sword
May 23, 2005

Goghing, Goghing, gone


Any article that tells fans how they "should" enjoy the game is loving stupid by default.

quote:

I’m not rejecting facts, just the inability to tell a story, see beyond a spreadsheet, or acknowledge that other people have some things to teach me,
There is absolutely no merit in this. "Straw man" is a term that gets used and abused in goony ways sometimes but this is basically the definition of it. He is making up people in his head and deciding that they are a representative majority of people who do not think like he does.

Medical Sword fucked around with this message at Oct 11, 2010 around 21:30

stuart scott
Mar 9, 2007



Okposolypse posted:

I didn't find that article to be so bad. Yeah, its basically telling fans to not read into stats cause its a waste of time, but its focus is on the idea that as fans we should focus on the story, as players they should focus on creating the story, and as journalists we should focus on telling it. The stats behind it all are the GM's job. I disagree, I think understanding the stats makes for a more informed fan, but its not straight up saying its all BS.

Though I am also much more optimistic.

But if you know what stats to look at and how much trust to invest in them, you end up knowing way more of the story.

Medical Sword
May 23, 2005

Goghing, Goghing, gone


And furthermore, even if there were some overwhelming majority of people who were totally disinterested in the mystique and aura of baseball (there isn't), who loving cares? Who is Will Carroll to tell those people that what they enjoy is wrong?? If he's not disputing the legitimacy of the stats, what is his point about anything at all. Even granting him the straw man, what he's saying is stupid.

Tender Bender
Sep 17, 2004



A drat FOG posted:

And furthermore, even if there were some overwhelming majority of people who were totally disinterested in the mystique and aura of baseball (there isn't), who loving cares? Who is Will Carroll to tell those people that what they enjoy is wrong?? If he's not disputing the legitimacy of the stats, what is his point about anything at all. Even granting him the straw man, what he's saying is stupid.

ON top of that the entire article is wholly incoherent and reads like the ramblings of a crazy man. It opens with the implication that watching The Simpsons means you are less of a baseball fan than someone who attended the NLDS last night, and it ends with the implication that if you enjoy stats you cannot watch Roy Halladay pitch.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


Okposolypse posted:

I didn't find that article to be so bad. Yeah, its basically telling fans to not read into stats cause its a waste of time, but its focus is on the idea that as fans we should focus on the story, as players they should focus on creating the story, and as journalists we should focus on telling it. The stats behind it all are the GM's job. I disagree, I think understanding the stats makes for a more informed fan, but its not straight up saying its all BS.

Though I am also much more optimistic.

If the point of the article was that people that are into stats sometimes aren't great writers and people that are very good writers don't understand stats then it'd be spot on. If it was something along the lines of "This is a blueprint for how to make stats mainstream!" that'd be pretty cool.

But it doesn't actually have a point. He never manages to finish a thought and the only thing that comes across is spite.

Okposolypse
Jan 1, 2009

by Debbie Metallica


Badfinger posted:

If the point of the article was that people that are into stats sometimes aren't great writers and people that are very good writers don't understand stats then it'd be spot on. If it was something along the lines of "This is a blueprint for how to make stats mainstream!" that'd be pretty cool.

But it doesn't actually have a point. He never manages to finish a thought and the only thing that comes across is spite.

Oh its definitely horribly written, but beneath the meandering thought it didn't offend me as much as some other articles would have beyond the fact that essays I've written an hour before class are better and more coherent than that.

Medical Sword
May 23, 2005

Goghing, Goghing, gone


It's not a matter of being Offended As A Stathead so much as not having any idea what point he is trying to make. He claims his point isn't "stats are wrong and bad." Ok, what is his point? He says he's "rejecting being unable to look past a spreadsheet." He can reject whatever he wants, whether it's a real thing or not, but why is he writing an article about it? Did someone walk up to him and say "you know, Will Carroll, setting statistics aside completely, you're quite wrong to enjoy the narrative of baseball, please stop?" Does he actually think that's a thing, a real movement, or is he being a lazy/disingenuous shithead and writing populist drivel?

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


Okposolypse posted:

Oh its definitely horribly written, but beneath the meandering thought it didn't offend me as much as some other articles would have beyond the fact that essays I've written an hour before class are better and more coherent than that.

It doesn't need to be wrong about sports to be horribly written sports journalism.

It's ironic that the whole "can't tell stories thing" is kind of living in his article.

stuart scott
Mar 9, 2007



I think it actually did have potential for offense; it's pretty infuriating to have the limits of how much I can enjoy the sport that I love the most dictated to me by some anonymous rear end in a top hat on the internet who also happens to be a terrible writer. Couple that with the perception that it's the stats people that are arrogant and I would probably take offense were I not so used to reading garbage like that.

Kim Jong Il
Aug 16, 2003


Was it Will Carroll or Pete Abraham who tweets about porn stars all the time? Thinking back it might be both.

Nodoze
Aug 17, 2006

If it's only for a night I can live without you

Kim Jong Il posted:

Was it Will Carroll or Pete Abraham who tweets about porn stars all the time? Thinking back it might be both.

Will Carroll definitely

Tender Bender
Sep 17, 2004



Pete Abe tweets about his female coworkers which is even more uncomfortable.

The best part about his whole "can't tell a story" angle is that he himself doesn't seem able to tell a story. If I were reading this in a vacuum I would think "No wonder these 'statheads' ignore your stories, because those stories are pretty vague and boring."

The only "story" he offers is a quick blurb about something Curt Schilling did, followed by the imagined idea of what he wants to believe Curt Schilling was thinking, that Carroll is passing off as the truth. Which is a pretty great example of the kind of bullshit invented narrative that is driving people away from sports journalism. Go publish some poems or write a novel if you want to flex your creative muscle, don't get pissed that people ignore your made-up stories. He wants "baseball fans" to be "baseball fanfiction fans".


Skimmed it again because why the hell not:

quote:

Sciambi wrote a great article at BPro earlier this year, starting with a story about how a question about stats directed at Chipper Jones ended up with a nasty look up at the booth. It was a great anecdote … and precisely the kind of thing that statheads don’t understand. Moneyball wasn’t an amazing series of facts; it was an amazing story, told by one of America’s master storytellers.

A) Chipper Jones doesn't like being asked about stats.
B) This is what statheads don't understand.
C) Amazing stories are better than amazing series' of facts.

Try to connect A, B, and C into a coherent stream of thought.

Tender Bender fucked around with this message at Oct 12, 2010 around 03:11

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


Here's the article he's talking about.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/a...articleid=10101

So it's a mainstream broadcaster- he is on ESPN - talking about first pitch strikes. This is not an obscure stat. It gets brought up on basically every broadcast. True it doesn't generally get tracked over the course of a season in the broadcasts, but everyone pays attention to it. SO, not a sabermetric stat. All you need is time enough to watch the ballgames and the ability to do division. Then it sparks both a good story, by a guy who's done a good job telling it, and musings on how sabermetric stats can be more properly introduced into the mainstream without being 1) overwhelming and 2) smug as hell.

In conclusion, Will Carroll is a fat stupid rear end in a top hat.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010

DUMB FUCK

uhh wait did anyone read Moneyball and think "this is an amazing statistical revolution" because if so

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

I live. I die. I live again.

Badfinger posted:

In conclusion, Will Carroll is a fat stupid rear end in a top hat.

Been this way for a while!

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010

DUMB FUCK

repostin this from MLB

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/texa...-team-needs-now

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