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screamin and creamin
Sep 15, 2003



Mr.PayDay posted:

Intel was there when all evolutions and innovations happened the last 2 decades

Yeah, they're losing their edge to well-run companies with better ideas and more talent.
And they're actually really, really nice. In contrast, Intel don't know what they really want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUjDMdSwefk

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PC LOAD LETTER
May 23, 2005
WTF?!

Slippery Tilde

Mr.PayDay posted:

In reality the Enterprise and Server market prints money and Intel owns 90 % of the Cloud, Data Center and 24/7 High end critical business SLA infrastructures and dominates the virtualization backends.
The server market is slow to change and even with a superior product its widely acknowledged that AMD would take years to get decent market share.

The general rule of thumb is to go by the Opteron days and point out it took them ~2yr to get ~20% of the x86 server market and so its assumed it'll take about that long to do the same today. Epyc has been out for a while now but also didn't start ramping production well apparently until 2018-ish and since then AMD has been getting more market share slowly but steadily over time.

Due to their fab limitation I don't think they'll ever be able to kick Intel out of the x86 server market (or any market other than consoles apparently) and perhaps its also slowing them down some now too but its faaar from unreasonable to assume at this point that they can take a big chunk of the x86 server market away from Intel for at least a year or 2 going forward.

Mr.PayDay posted:

Beside that, every tech and gaming magazine labels Intel as the fastest gaming CPUs
Usually not enough to be worth the price/heat particularly if you game at 1440p which lots do and have for a long time which is why AMD has been doing well even in gaming. For desktop productivity stuff they'll also still meet or beat Intel's desktop/HEDT things for less or the same price too.

If you want to ignore value and focus on 1 or 2 things Intel can still eke out some thin wins here and there but otherwise they're rather disappointing to buy right now in general for desktop/HEDT and even laptops are starting to look better for AMD (though that is a very recent change and not many models are out there still).

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

PC LOAD LETTER posted:

The general rule of thumb is to go by the Opteron days and point out it took them ~2yr to get ~20% of the x86 server market

Was Opteron as bad for servers as Bulldozer was for the consumer market? I tend to imagine that an architecture that runs as hot as FX did wouldn't be a good fit for servers.

Or was this a case of AMD getting a chunk of the market just because they were an alternative to Intel at all?

orcane
Jun 13, 2012



Fun Shoe

Opteron was their first x64 server CPU similar to the Athlon 64, and got a bunch of market share when the Intel options were Xeon furnaces based on Netburst, or Itanium if you wanted 64bit

They started to lose market share again when Xeons went Core-based, the new Opterons couldn't quite compete because Phenom was okay but not as competitive. Bulldozer came after that.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

orcane posted:

Opteron was their first x64 server CPU similar to the Athlon 64, and got a bunch of market share when the Intel options were Xeon furnaces based on Netburst, or Itanium if you wanted 64bit

They started to lose market share again when Xeons went Core-based, the new Opterons couldn't quite compete because Phenom was okay but not as competitive. Bulldozer came after that.

ohhhhh okay. They were still branding the Bulldozer-era CPUs as Opterons so I guess I got the timeline wrong. But what you wrote makes sense.

orcane
Jun 13, 2012



Fun Shoe

Yeah they kept the Opteron name for server CPUs until Zen/Epyc. Previously they were just Athlon too, just with a different suffix I think.

PC LOAD LETTER
May 23, 2005
WTF?!

Slippery Tilde

Yeah Opteron was a long term branding that spanned multiple architectures.

I suspect they retired it because of the stink that stuck to the brand after the Bulldozer versions tanked their x86 market share to nothing.

The K7 and K8 based Opterons did quite well though and did offer significant performance and value advantages over the Intel competing chips of the time.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


PC LOAD LETTER posted:

Yeah Opteron was a long term branding that spanned multiple architectures.

I suspect they retired it because of the stink that stuck to the brand after the Bulldozer versions tanked their x86 market share to nothing.

The K7 and K8 based Opterons did quite well though and did offer significant performance and value advantages over the Intel competing chips of the time.

One of them I recall, was a favourite among overclockers and was great value. Opteron 140? 145? I can't remember exactly

Malcolm XML
Aug 8, 2009

I always knew it would end like this.


PC LOAD LETTER posted:

The server market is slow to change and even with a superior product its widely acknowledged that AMD would take years to get decent market share.

The general rule of thumb is to go by the Opteron days and point out it took them ~2yr to get ~20% of the x86 server market and so its assumed it'll take about that long to do the same today. Epyc has been out for a while now but also didn't start ramping production well apparently until 2018-ish and since then AMD has been getting more market share slowly but steadily over time.

Due to their fab limitation I don't think they'll ever be able to kick Intel out of the x86 server market (or any market other than consoles apparently) and perhaps its also slowing them down some now too but its faaar from unreasonable to assume at this point that they can take a big chunk of the x86 server market away from Intel for at least a year or 2 going forward.


Intel will always be a player in the x86 space. AMD is now back to being a competitor which at the least puts pricing pressure on Intel. Intel doesn't have the bulldozer issue of a poo poo arch on a trailing process, but they don't have their process advantage anymore. Since servers are very concerned with PPW having an extra 20% advantage is huge. These things take time so expect any real change to take years. That said, with interest rates low, future cash is more valuable which does explain why PE ratios are higher now.

movax
Aug 30, 2008



HalloKitty posted:

One of them I recall, was a favourite among overclockers and was great value. Opteron 140? 145? I can't remember exactly

I thought it was the 140 but I was never an AMD person around that time.

Echoing (as always) the surprising 9, soon to be 10 year run on my 2600K computing didn't really change for us on the edge as fast as it used too.


PC LOAD LETTER posted:

The server market is slow to change and even with a superior product its widely acknowledged that AMD would take years to get decent market share.

The general rule of thumb is to go by the Opteron days and point out it took them ~2yr to get ~20% of the x86 server market and so its assumed it'll take about that long to do the same today. Epyc has been out for a while now but also didn't start ramping production well apparently until 2018-ish and since then AMD has been getting more market share slowly but steadily over time.

Due to their fab limitation I don't think they'll ever be able to kick Intel out of the x86 server market (or any market other than consoles apparently) and perhaps its also slowing them down some now too but its faaar from unreasonable to assume at this point that they can take a big chunk of the x86 server market away from Intel for at least a year or 2 going forward.

Usually not enough to be worth the price/heat particularly if you game at 1440p which lots do and have for a long time which is why AMD has been doing well even in gaming. For desktop productivity stuff they'll also still meet or beat Intel's desktop/HEDT things for less or the same price too.

If you want to ignore value and focus on 1 or 2 things Intel can still eke out some thin wins here and there but otherwise they're rather disappointing to buy right now in general for desktop/HEDT and even laptops are starting to look better for AMD (though that is a very recent change and not many models are out there still).

I think Intel's move here is to maintain OEM wins at all costs and play pricing games / nearly dumping games because office / business machines don't care as much, as someone pointed out a few pages back. AMD went for the right sector first limited capacity targeting a lower volume / higher margin industry.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

I will NEVER become THE PIRATE KING!!! I am just a lazy, hypocritical idiot.


movax posted:

I thought it was the 140 but I was never an AMD person around that time.

Echoing (as always) the surprising 9, soon to be 10 year run on my 2600K — computing didn't really change for us on the edge as fast as it used too.

Super controversial but I feel a big reason is that most games don't demand more power in order to advanced. Sure massive open world games could always use power but most fighting games and action games don't need any more power under the hood to achieve their peak vision.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001

A Very Useful Person



Fun Shoe

Wrong, and short sighted.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

punk rebel ecks posted:

Super controversial but I feel a big reason is that most games don't demand more power in order to advanced. Sure massive open world games could always use power but most fighting games and action games don't need any more power under the hood to achieve their peak vision.

And part of that reason is consoles: even at stock, a 2500k is faster than the Jaguar-powered PS4 CPU by a considerable margin. Over clocking the 2500k to 4.0+ and beyond and it's not even close.

Since most games are built with the intent to run on consoles, that's been a huge limiter in how crazy they can get with stuff, and has kept the 2500k in the game for so long. By comparison, the new consoles are going to have CPU performance about on par with a Ryzen 7 3700X, which is about 5x faster than the 2500k in multi-thread, and about 1.75x faster in single thread. With that sort of power being the "baseline" for new games, I think you'll see that even your fighting games find ways to make use of it.

wargames
Mar 16, 2008

official yospos cat censor


orcane posted:

Opteron was their first x64 server CPU similar to the Athlon 64, and got a bunch of market share when the Intel options were Xeon furnaces based on Netburst, or Itanium if you wanted 64bit

They started to lose market share again when Xeons went Core-based, the new Opterons couldn't quite compete because Phenom was okay but not as competitive. Bulldozer came after that.

Guess who's company STILL uses Itanium?

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


wargames posted:

Guess who's company STILL uses Itanium?

Itaniums are still shipping, right? Is Intel still taking new orders?

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Twerk from Home posted:

Itaniums are still shipping, right? Is Intel still taking new orders?

I thought HPE had been just stockpiling them for when Intel stops production end of the year or so.

No new orders accepted for chips by intel though.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-t...its-core-series



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDBq-OU1rHo#t=115s

movax
Aug 30, 2008




I kinda like the new ones, actually. Doesn't do poo poo for their problems right now though!

"evo" is the big.LITTLE stuff?

Zedsdeadbaby
Jun 14, 2008

You have been called out, in the ways of old.


Those are some painfully early 00s powerpoint slide style logos. Just seems like grasping at straws to me.

Nomyth
Mar 15, 2013

And if a Nyto get a attitude
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot


Destroy all marketers

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011




engineer: "we're losing our enormous lead and have been for three straight years, what do we do sir"
ceo: "ha ha marketing department budget go brrrrr"

~Coxy
Dec 9, 2003

R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

They got up to 10th gen, law of marketing says you have to rebrand now.

See also: NVidia, ATi.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

movax posted:

I kinda like the new ones, actually. Doesn't do poo poo for their problems right now though!

"evo" is the big.LITTLE stuff?

This SUCKS. Didn't they bother to notice samsung brands poo poo EVO and now I thought the Core i5 has a SSD in it somehow.

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.




~Coxy posted:

They got up to 10th gen, law of marketing says you have to rebrand now.

See also: NVidia, ATi.

Also Samsung.

Dr. Fishopolis
Aug 31, 2004

ROBOT

and mac os

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

...then shalt thou count to ten, no more, no less. Ten shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be ten. Nine shalt thou not count, neither count thou eight, excepting that thou then proceed to ten. Eleven is right out! Once the number ten, being the tenth number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Series Renaming towards thy foe, who, being the marketing department, shall go brrrrrr.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



I actually think marketing is very important but I also don't understand what they come up with half the time

Beef
Jul 26, 2004



Not as much changing the name as repainting the store's window frame.

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007




DrDork posted:

...then shalt thou count to ten, no more, no less. Ten shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be ten. Nine shalt thou not count, neither count thou eight, excepting that thou then proceed to ten. Eleven is right out! Once the number ten, being the tenth number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Series Renaming towards thy foe, who, being the marketing department, shall go brrrrrr.

Three, sir!

Nomyth
Mar 15, 2013

And if a Nyto get a attitude
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot


WhyteRyce posted:

I actually think marketing is very important but I also don't understand what they come up with half the time

High-profile marketing is inevitably tied to fostering a consumer culture to make future marketing even easier. This culture, much like in leadership, can be manipulated to promote unhealthy practices in the name of (the admittedly important) profit, including but not limited to taking advantage of lack of customer knowledge to sell GARBAGE

movax
Aug 30, 2008



Is it time for the MHz war again? Bigger number, better? Works for stonks.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

THERE IS NO WAR BUT THE GAME OF CORES. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE AS MANY AS SCIENTIFICALLY POSSIBLE.

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



movax posted:

Is it time for the MHz war again? Bigger number, better? Works for stonks.
Dennard scaling has been dead for almost a decade, so it's not happening.
The proverbial "noticable" speedup happens at around 700MHz difference on a single-thread, and unless you're stuck on a very old processor like me with my i7-2600, when you upgrade you're just not gonna see that kind of performance increase.
IPC is also not a good way to get reliable speedup, because it turns out that for basically all workloads from HPC all the way down to embedded, most CPUs that expose hardware performance monitoring counters end up averaging at around 1IPC over a long enough timescale.

wargames
Mar 16, 2008

official yospos cat censor


Twerk from Home posted:

Itaniums are still shipping, right? Is Intel still taking new orders?

yes

priznat posted:

I thought HPE had been just stockpiling them for when Intel stops production end of the year or so.

No new orders accepted for chips by intel though.


and we are buying up some i4s and i6s because once these things break there will be NO replacements. so in about 6-8 years we plan to make away from Itanium

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



....ah. So that's how Apple is going to play this.

ARMbook rumors: https://hexus.net/tech/news/laptop/...ch-date-leaked/

quote:

The first MacBook with Arm-inside will have the following specs, according to Komiya:

A14X SoC
RAM 8GB, 16GB
SSD 256GB, 512GB, (1TB)
12-inch Retina Display
15hr~20hr battery life
720p Facetime HD Camera
Single USB-C port
Lighter than 1kg
4th gen Butterfly Keyboard
$799(at least)~

NewFatMike
Jun 11, 2015



They're not even going to bring over the fixed keyboard? Jesus.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Seems like a certain 'tuber fond of tech tips was right.... they're just gonna drop an ARM chip into something of an existing chassis or with minimal engineering, and watch everyone marvel at what a difference shaving 20W off the TDP makes, shave off $200 to drive early adoption, and make people wonder just exactly why they were paying the extra clams for Intel in the first place.

SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Aug 3, 2020

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

NewFatMike posted:

They're not even going to bring over the fixed keyboard? Jesus.

This honestly pisses me off. ANOTHER class action lawsuit inbound.

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



SwissArmyDruid posted:

Seems like a certain 'tuber fond of tech tips was right.... they're just gonna drop an ARM chip into something of an existing chassis or with minimal engineering, and watch everyone marvel at what a difference shaving 20W off the TDP makes, shave off $200 to drive early adoption, and make people wonder just exactly why they were paying the extra clams for Intel in the first place.
I mean, that was always going to be the most probable and easiest-to-guess thing, so it's hard to not be right. It's sort of the equivalent of guessing that the sun is going to rise tomorrow - we don't know for sure, but on the other hand there's not exactly of wealth of evidence that it won't happen, so the working assumption is that it is.

Apple revolutionized the world with the iPhone, but a revolution like that doesn't come around very often - especially not from the same company within 2 decades of each other.

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necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

It pains me to see these Apple laptops being so lackluster. It's one thing to conflate form into function, it's another thing to outright reject the basic functionality at high business costs in terms of user unfriendliness, repair costs, etc. I don't see how the heck crap like their keyboard debacle is good business in any way anymore and their business mostly rides upon branding placement rather than product competition.

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