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Laslow
Jul 18, 2007



The funny thing about AVX512 is that RPCSX3 and Cemu get some mileage out of it and that stuff is kind of my jam. So despite largely being outside of the typical use-case, itís still a feature thatís firmly in the ďnice to have for a few bucks moreĒ category for me. Itís kind of in the $30 or less range personally though. Like if the equivalent i9/Xeon were $30 more than a Ryzen R9/Threadripper without AVX512 or significantly less AVX512 performance, I just might reach for it because Iím an enormous idiot.

Anand says that thereís no such thing as bad products, just bad prices which is what I judge by. So if Alder Lake is a technological embarrassment for being so late for what it ultimately is doesnít matter to me one iota if itís priced appropriately. But thereís plenty of time for AMD to match Intel in AVX512 between now and then.

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Fame Douglas
Nov 20, 2013

RELY NOT ON MY HONOR!!! FOR WHEN I OFFER MY WORD OF BOND, I TAKE NOT THAT VOW TO HEART!! CASUALLY, I BRING SHAME TO MY HOUSEHOLD AND RUIN TO THOSE WHO RELY ON MY COMMITMENT, BY SHIRKING MY AVOWED DUTY

Fauxtool posted:

extremely good news. Not having a gpu might end up being fairly tolerable.

I used one of those Lenovo ThinkCentre Tiny systems with two 4k screens for a while, 6th generation CPU, the iGPU really wasn't powerful enough to run that satisfactorily. A video running on the second screen would noticeably lag when doing things on the first screen.

But maybe the experience is better with newer CPUs and a full desktop-TDP.

Fauxtool
Oct 21, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!


Fame Douglas posted:

I used one of those Lenovo ThinkCentre Tiny systems with two 4k screens for a while, 6th generation CPU, the iGPU really wasn't powerful enough to run that satisfactorily. A video running on the second screen would noticeably lag when doing things on the first screen.

But maybe the experience is better with newer CPUs and a full desktop-TDP.

I can only hope. Its 2 1440p screens but purely for work, mostly word and excell. 10fps would be totally fine.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

I get to see into the procurement side of things in my work and it's interesting that A. we're still buying up hundreds of workstations to meet scaling-up demand, B. Intel is still the brand to go to for these kinds of orders (I've never seen an AMD system in our offices) and C. at this point, the machines being bought are enterprise/prebuilt 10th gen i5's. That's a six-core/12-thread part that still turbos up to 3.2 GHz even with the T-model low-TDP variant. It's honestly a lot of CPU to be doling out for driving spreadsheets, and it's interesting to think about what the second-hand market is going to be like in a few years.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



Itís overkill until your heavily outsourced IT department throws a bunch of mandatory bullshit at it

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

WhyteRyce posted:

Itís overkill until your heavily outsourced IT department throws a bunch of mandatory bullshit at it

Carbon black suckin down 3 cores just on its own no doubt.

mdxi
Mar 13, 2006

to JERK OFF is to be close to GOD... only with SPURTING



gradenko_2000 posted:

That's a six-core/12-thread part that still turbos up to 3.2 GHz even with the T-model low-TDP variant. It's honestly a lot of CPU to be doling out for driving spreadsheets

Before I became an addict and went ham on BOINC, the T series was my drug of choice for a handful of upgrade cycles (i3-6100T was my last before I caught the fever for MORE CORE). I haven't paid any attention in a couple years, but I'm sure they're still pretty great as efficient workhorses. No one ever talks about them.

Edit: Just looked up the i3-10100T. The only issue I see is the ridiculously small amount of cache, but I guess that's how the market segmentation crumbles.

mdxi fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Apr 9, 2021

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014




The office computer I use at work now is a little SFF thing with a i5-9600T. It has a whiny laptop fan thanks to HP and is used to run some very poorly designed software, but is respectably quick at everything else.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



I poo poo on heavily outsourced IT departments but some internal to the company IT guy yelled at me and a co-worker for riding some 2-drawer wheeled filing cabinets down an inclined hallway/breezeway about being safe so I don't like the internal ones either.

WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Apr 9, 2021

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


There just really isn't any reason to cheap out on business hardware. It's so cheap compared to what you pay an employee.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Oh yeah to be clear I don't think it's excessive for office computers to be six-core i5s, I just think it's a cool marker of how far we've come that such hardware is even being considered basic

And esp. when their single drive is also a 256 GB SSD

It's like it was only two years ago when I was managing a project to get all our dual-core i3 4 GB RAM workstations to 8 GB so that we could upgrade all of them to Windows 10, and here we are

B-1.1.7 Bomber
Feb 19, 2005

THE DARK SIDE OF SCIENCE BREEDS A WEAPON OF WAR


Buglord

Right, I noticed during our firm's last upgrade cycle that the default laptop offering had gotten to the point that everything I could conceivably need to do in an office setting, I could do without worry. We went with AMD for our latest; that was supposed to go out to us quite some time ago, but we're still waiting for that order to be filled, surprise surprise.

Fame Douglas
Nov 20, 2013

RELY NOT ON MY HONOR!!! FOR WHEN I OFFER MY WORD OF BOND, I TAKE NOT THAT VOW TO HEART!! CASUALLY, I BRING SHAME TO MY HOUSEHOLD AND RUIN TO THOSE WHO RELY ON MY COMMITMENT, BY SHIRKING MY AVOWED DUTY

gradenko_2000 posted:

I get to see into the procurement side of things in my work and it's interesting that A. we're still buying up hundreds of workstations to meet scaling-up demand, B. Intel is still the brand to go to for these kinds of orders (I've never seen an AMD system in our offices) and C. at this point, the machines being bought are enterprise/prebuilt 10th gen i5's. That's a six-core/12-thread part that still turbos up to 3.2 GHz even with the T-model low-TDP variant. It's honestly a lot of CPU to be doling out for driving spreadsheets, and it's interesting to think about what the second-hand market is going to be like in a few years.

Intel being able to deliver more units than AMD thanks to their older process alone should give them a leg up over AMD, even when Intel's CPUs are worse. There's also a ton of inertia with these things.

LightRailTycoon
Mar 24, 2017


Off -lease $200 haswell i7s with 16gb of ram and an ssd for $200-$250 are pretty nice, too.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

Fame Douglas posted:

Intel being able to deliver more units than AMD thanks to their older process alone should give them a leg up over AMD, even when Intel's CPUs are worse. There's also a ton of inertia with these things.

It's true, I sell a lot of business machines and nothing but Intel right now, i3s or i5s, whatever is in stock and both are pleeeenty fast.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


This'll probably end up a hypothetical question, but is there a chance of a reasonably cheap processor upgrade that would give me a "meaningful" FPS boost? I have a 6400 with a GTX 970. Changing settings often doesn't make much of a performance difference. I hover around 60 in a lot of games, but dips are frequent. Would just like a near locked 60 at 1080p.

I know nothing about buying old CPUs or their price patterns.

This is a small form factor pc with a limited PSU (330W) so that might be another limiting factor.

ConanTheLibrarian
Aug 13, 2004


dis buch is late

Fallen Rib

redeyes posted:

It's true, I sell a lot of business machines and nothing but Intel right now, i3s or i5s, whatever is in stock and both are pleeeenty fast.

It helps that you have to go out of your way to get an Intel CPU without integrated graphics, while it's the other way around for AMD.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

Rinkles posted:

This'll probably end up a hypothetical question, but is there a chance of a reasonably cheap processor upgrade that would give me a "meaningful" FPS boost? I have a 6400 with a GTX 970. Changing settings often doesn't make much of a performance difference. I hover around 60 in a lot of games, but dips are frequent. Would just like a near locked 60 at 1080p.

I know nothing about buying old CPUs or their price patterns.

This is a small form factor pc with a limited PSU (330W) so that might be another limiting factor.

6400 what? What motherboard? How much memory? How much are you willing to spend?

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


LRADIKAL posted:

6400 what? What motherboard? How much memory? How much are you willing to spend?

It's an alienware prebuilt. 8GB of 2133Mhz ram, dual channel.

I don't know how much this might cost, that's why I'm asking. But I don't think I want to spend more than a 100 dollars.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

A 6700k is much faster and can probably be found cheaply, 8GB RAM is a bit low nowadays. Better off saving up, I'd say.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Rinkles posted:

It's an alienware prebuilt. 8GB of 2133Mhz ram, dual channel.

I don't know how much this might cost, that's why I'm asking. But I don't think I want to spend more than a 100 dollars.

A 6400 is a locked 4 core, in very modern titles it's going to be holding you back, as will that slow-rear end ram. The motherboard will support faster ram, and a 6700k might be affordable since the 7700k takes top dog for the family, but saving for a total rebuild is probably the better choice.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Yeah I don't want to be spending $200 on a six year old cpu.

Ok Comboomer
Oct 20, 2007



I'd like to be able to run Adobe CS (most taxing thing is premiere) and Ableton and my 2013 quadcore i7 Macbook Pro is really showing its age. It's time to replace it with Apple Silicon, but I'm stuck waiting for the new MBPs to come out, although the existing M1 Air would likely be plenty of computer for my needs (wanna see how that rumored 14" looks).

Meanwhile, I've been wanting a desktop since like 2018, and here's a place where I probably could/maybe should get something now, especially if we're going to be entering a really prolonged chip shortage.

I've narrowed my options to this HP here, or an M1 Mac Mini (which would be pricier as I'd want to load it out with more storage and 16gb RAM from the factory, whereas I could upgrade the HP's RAM + storage piecemeal down the road, and for less money).

I'm leaning toward the HP, both for cost reasons, and because I'd like to be able to play my library of Windows/Xbox games and use GamePass, which I can't do on Apple Silicon. Another option here might be to wait for new Xboxen to become available again and to try and snag one, but that seems like a bit of a tall order. In terms of work, I have zero doubt that an M1 Mini could handle it perfectly (esp if I switch to FCP for video stuff instead of Premiere), but I'd be greatly limiting myself in terms of games/access to gamepass, plus it would be nice to keep a Windows/Linux machine around, especially now that Apple Silicon Macs can't currently bootcamp.

Is the HP that I'm looking at a good computer to pick up? I don't really see better options until you're spending $1300+, which I seriously don't want to do. Obviously trying to build a PC right now or buy a retail GPU is a nonstarter. Retail components and prebuilts are both getting harder to find and I'm legit worried that hardware will continue to be super scarce for the next year or two.

However, I'm concerned that it's only ("only") a 1650 and that I'm setting myself up for an eventual dead end, especially when an M1 machine that sips power, weighs like 2 pounds and barely gets warm seems to give it a run for its money everywhere except software availability. My initial plan WRT getting a PC to run GamePass games on was to get a refurb Optiplex and slap a 1650 in it for a total of $350-400. That was in the halcyon days of Fall 2020 when you could still get a 1650 for $180, nevermind MSRP.

For $700 I'd be getting a 10th gen 6 core i5--so a much newer CPU than the 4th-6th gen most commonly available on ebay, a 1650, and a 400W power supply. Does this thing look reasonable?

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

700 USD for an i5-10400F, a GTX 1650, 8 gigs of RAM and a 256 GB SSD is very reasonable

the RAM might be a single stick of 8 GB, so think about getting a second stick of 8 GB just so you're running at dual-channel memory

the CPU is probably going to last you a good long while

the GPU is... entry level, to be completely honest, but it's not like we have a wealth of options, and it's still enough to drive most games at 1080p 60 FPS with some tweaks

Ok Comboomer
Oct 20, 2007



gradenko_2000 posted:

700 USD for an i5-10400F, a GTX 1650, 8 gigs of RAM and a 256 GB SSD is very reasonable

the RAM might be a single stick of 8 GB, so think about getting a second stick of 8 GB just so you're running at dual-channel memory

the CPU is probably going to last you a good long while

the GPU is... entry level, to be completely honest, but it's not like we have a wealth of options, and it's still enough to drive most games at 1080p 60 FPS with some tweaks

Am I better off waiting for a Series X to become available for $500 instead and just doing everything off of a Mac notebook (and maybe adding a Mini or iMac or different windows PC down the road? I feel like Iím overthinking this but the ďentry levelĒ status of the 1650 gives me pause)

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

if it's going to be a pure gaming box AND the kinds of games you're playing are only controller-driven then a console is a good alternative, but personally I like playing RTSes and Paradox mapgames and aiming with a mouse so I still have a "gaming" computer

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


Rinkles posted:

This'll probably end up a hypothetical question, but is there a chance of a reasonably cheap processor upgrade that would give me a "meaningful" FPS boost? I have a 6400 with a GTX 970. Changing settings often doesn't make much of a performance difference. I hover around 60 in a lot of games, but dips are frequent. Would just like a near locked 60 at 1080p.

I know nothing about buying old CPUs or their price patterns.

This is a small form factor pc with a limited PSU (330W) so that might be another limiting factor.

Old top-end "for the socket" Intel cpus have painfully inflated prices. There's not much you can do without wasting money unless you find someone locally who's splitting a system for dirt cheap

Bofast
Feb 21, 2011



Grimey Drawer

I would mostly be wondering about the power supply. Many (not all) GTX 1650 models run without an additional PCI-e power connector because they only need the power that the motherboard slot can provide, so it's hard to say what kind of power supply HP put in that thing and what it could handle in terms of future GPU upgrades. CPU should be fine, though.

Ok Comboomer
Oct 20, 2007



Bofast posted:

I would mostly be wondering about the power supply. Many (not all) GTX 1650 models run without an additional PCI-e power connector because they only need the power that the motherboard slot can provide, so it's hard to say what kind of power supply HP put in that thing and what it could handle in terms of future GPU upgrades. CPU should be fine, though.

not sure but itís supposed to be rated for 400W and thereís at least a 500W version available from HP. When this chassis is/was available on HPís BTO site it could be optioned with a 3060 or 3070 so Iím assuming that at minimum something like a midrange rtx card would work in the future

K8.0
Feb 26, 2004

Her Majesty's 56th Regiment of Foot

Ok Comboomer posted:

Am I better off waiting for a Series X to become available for $500 instead and just doing everything off of a Mac notebook (and maybe adding a Mini or iMac or different windows PC down the road? I feel like Iím overthinking this but the ďentry levelĒ status of the 1650 gives me pause)

Consoles are a poor substitute for a PC, but in this circumstance it does sound to me like your best option. I think part of the decision has to involve asking yourself where you see your financial situation going down the road.

Ok Comboomer
Oct 20, 2007



K8.0 posted:

Consoles are a poor substitute for a PC, but in this circumstance it does sound to me like your best option. I think part of the decision has to involve asking yourself where you see your financial situation going down the road.

I mean, if the addition of a $700 computer is going to gently caress up my financial situation at some unspecified time down the road then I have way bigger problems than ďXbox or PC?Ē

Edit: I think a more salient question might be ďdo I see myself successfully grabbing a Series X any time in the next year?Ē

Ok Comboomer fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Apr 10, 2021

Hasturtium
May 19, 2020

A VAST WIFE WING CONSPIRACY

Question born of lurid curiosity: I have a Core i9-7940x and it's been great. But outside of fixing the AVX clock scaling issue with Rocket Lake, what additional AVX512 improvements have been made with this new implementation?

edit: Also, will AVX512 optimizations for Rocket Lake at least partially apply to my Skylake-X chip?

Hasturtium fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Apr 10, 2021

K8.0
Feb 26, 2004

Her Majesty's 56th Regiment of Foot

Ok Comboomer posted:

I mean, if the addition of a $700 computer is going to gently caress up my financial situation at some unspecified time down the road then I have way bigger problems than ďXbox or PC?Ē

Edit: I think a more salient question might be ďdo I see myself successfully grabbing a Series X any time in the next year?Ē

I mean more along the lines of if you're going to be making solid money and you can say gently caress it and buy a nicer PC in a year or whatever, then I would probably be more inclined to buy the Xbox and resell it later if you want to or something.

Console availability is better than GPU availability and keeps getting better. It'll be easier to get a Series X at a decent price in a reasonable timeframe than a desirable PC at a decent price in a reasonable timeframe.

Ok Comboomer
Oct 20, 2007



K8.0 posted:

I mean more along the lines of if you're going to be making solid money and you can say gently caress it and buy a nicer PC in a year or whatever, then I would probably be more inclined to buy the Xbox and resell it later if you want to or something.

Console availability is better than GPU availability and keeps getting better. It'll be easier to get a Series X at a decent price in a reasonable timeframe than a desirable PC at a decent price in a reasonable timeframe.

If Iím spending $1000+ on a computer, especially a prebuilt, then dollars-to-donuts itís a Mac

I donít do the bulk of my day-to-day computing in Windows or Linux and donít plan to switch, but I do like keeping a box that can run them around and right now that means bootcamp on my MBP and a RPi 4 with Ubuntu thatís gotten a surprising amount of use during the pandemic.

If I could have a micro PC that ran games decently and didnít cost stupid money or a refurb Iíd probably have one of those. Since I canít really do that without spending close to this kind of money and making big trade offs then this doesnít seem so bad. I definitely donít want to spend $1300 to get an i7 with a 1660ti. Worst case scenario I wind up selling it in a year or two and if I only get $300 for it Iím still only out $400.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



K8.0 posted:

Consoles are a poor substitute for a PC, but in this circumstance it does sound to me like your best option. I think part of the decision has to involve asking yourself where you see your financial situation going down the road.
Modern consoles are PCs, that're a few generations old by the time they come out and are made with low-power parts, because the chassis don't allow for enough cooling to have the power of a high-end PC.

NewFatMike
Jun 11, 2015



You know drat well that's a statement about use case, not components. Nobody's doing spreadsheets on a PlayStation.

Bofast
Feb 21, 2011



Grimey Drawer

Ok Comboomer posted:

not sure but itís supposed to be rated for 400W and thereís at least a 500W version available from HP. When this chassis is/was available on HPís BTO site it could be optioned with a 3060 or 3070 so Iím assuming that at minimum something like a midrange rtx card would work in the future

Yeah, I mostly just wish there was more detail than "400 Watt".
I don't think it's a major concern, it's just the one thing that I would personally want to double check.

NewFatMike posted:

You know drat well that's a statement about use case, not components. Nobody's doing spreadsheets on a PlayStation.

Somewhere in the world, the one person running spreadsheets in Linux on a PS3 just felt a shiver down their spine

Fauxtool
Oct 21, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!


HalloKitty posted:

Old top-end "for the socket" Intel cpus have painfully inflated prices. There's not much you can do without wasting money unless you find someone locally who's splitting a system for dirt cheap

im about to part out a 7700k system and i can let these parts minus the gpu go for dirt cheap

mdxi
Mar 13, 2006

to JERK OFF is to be close to GOD... only with SPURTING



Bofast posted:

Somewhere in the world, the one person running spreadsheets in Linux on a PS3 just felt a shiver down their spine

That's not me, but I did once boot Linux on my Dreamcast. I just wanted to be able to say that I had run it on a SuperH CPU, because I've always been a sucker for weird architectures.

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BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



mdxi posted:

I've always been a sucker for weird architectures.
Heck, extremely

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