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MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


Maybe it's an economy of scale thing, a 600W brick for this thing would be super niche and probably cost more than two relatively higher volume 280W bricks.

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JnnyThndrs
May 29, 2001

HERE ARE THE FUCKING TOWELS

mdxi posted:

I'm not an EE, but my first guess would be that there are limits to the power you can push through a passively-cooled (and, in fact, sealed-in-plastic) transformer before it starts setting everything on fire.

I believe modern high-powered(over a few watts) power bricks are all switching-type power supplies; a transformer that puts out enough juice to power a modern PC would be massively huge and heavy(and expensive).

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


JnnyThndrs posted:

I believe modern high-powered(over a few watts) power bricks are all switching-type power supplies; a transformer that puts out enough juice to power a modern PC would be massively huge and heavy(and expensive).

They still use transformers for isolation purposes but they're high frequency transformers switching in the tens to hundreds of kHz which allows them to be much smaller than a 60Hz transformer.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



MaxxBot posted:

Maybe it's an economy of scale thing, a 600W brick for this thing would be super niche and probably cost more than two relatively higher volume 280W bricks.

I'm guessing it's this, they're already making the smaller brick, no sense in engineering a solution or setting up a manufacturing line for a super low volume product.

BurritoJustice
Oct 9, 2012



JnnyThndrs posted:

I believe modern high-powered(over a few watts) power bricks are all switching-type power supplies; a transformer that puts out enough juice to power a modern PC would be massively huge and heavy(and expensive).

Linear ATX power supplies do exist, they are basically just marketed towards idiot audiophiles who think that switching noise on the 12v line is somehow going to make it to their music.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

So pat yourself on the back and give yourself a handshake
'Cause everything is not yet lost




Pillbug

What kind of bricks does falcon northwest use for the DRX? You can get desktops i9ís in those and have been able to for a while.

Helter Skelter
Feb 10, 2004

BEARD OF HAVOC



Ugly In The Morning posted:

What kind of bricks does falcon northwest use for the DRX? You can get desktops i9ís in those and have been able to for a while.

Same as the Clevo, because they're the same laptop.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Helter Skelter posted:

Same as the Clevo, because they're the same laptop.

Yeah, for everyone elseís info basically every ridiculous gamer laptop with desktop components in it has Clevo as the ODM.

Palladium
May 8, 2012


BurritoJustice posted:

Linear ATX power supplies do exist, they are basically just marketed towards idiot audiophiles who think that switching noise on the 12v line is somehow going to make it to their music.

Even by .~*true*~. audiophile standards they make no sense anyway, when batteries exist which can deliver DC power without a iota of ripple.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Palladium posted:

Even by .~*true*~. audiophile standards they make no sense anyway, when batteries exist which can deliver DC power without a iota of ripple.

If you think about it isnít a battery discharging just one big ripple?

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



https://twitter.com/VideoCardz/status/1390314082893451274

Some interesting language from Kingston here. Was wondering how the power moving to the DIMM was going to work with memory overclocking:

quote:

Kingston engineered its DDR5 modules with a preset XMP profile, but also enabled our motherboard partners to manually adjust the power management integrated circuit (PMIC) beyond the 1.1V DDR5 spec, thus allowing maximum flexibility to overclock.

"Our motherboard partners". Hope this doesnt get messy...

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Where's ECC?!
https://nullrouted.org/bongocatsmash.mp4

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

Buy DDR4 now while it's still cheap! They're gonna stop making it soon and the price will go up forever!

Nam Taf
Jun 25, 2005

I am Fat Man, hear me roar!



Got another 16GB (2x8GB DIMMS) for my 6700k / z170 system after hitting some limits on my existing 16GB. Throw it in, system boots, but firefox crashes a couple of times and hten it freezes on a memory error. gently caress, faulty DIMMs I guess. Time to do some memtest and juggling DIMMs and slots to work out the bad combo.

So I run memtest on the whole lot and get a bunch of errors as expected. I shut down, remove the old set and start testing the new set in each of the 2 sets of slots. It boots, so I memtest and it passes fine. I swap the DIMMs to the other set of slots, boots again fine and passes fine. What the gently caress, the new set is fine in both sets of slots, and the old set never gave me issues, what's going on?

I throw all 4 DIMMs back in and try to boot. It now tries multiple times before showing a message that it failed to boot, and to hit DEL to go into my BIOS to change settings but otherwise it'll boot. So it boots, and looks all good. I run a memtest and it passes fine. At this stage I'm confused as gently caress.

I reboot, and it does the exact same pattern - fans spin up and down a few times, then the BIOS complains it couldn't boot and to go into it to change settings but continues to boot afterwards. Then the penny drops - when it's showing that message, it's telling me that it's changed some settings in order to boot.

Lo an behold, it was undong my XMP 3200 profile back to the stock 2133 and booting fine under that. However, it wouldn't permanently disable XMP, so the next reset it'd go through the process of failing several times before showing a relatively non-descriptive message and proceeding to boot fine. Suddenly it all makes sense. Skylake only supports 2133, but can generally do 3200 fine. However, it appears my combo of CPU + mobo can do 2 DIMMs at 3200, but not 4 DIMMs, under the XMP profile that lifts the RAM voltage to 1.35V. That's ok, easy fix is to manually give it some more juice.

So I set it to 1.36V and it boots fine. Hurrah! Time to find the balance point. Set it back to 1.355V, boots fine. Cool, let's go to 1.35V and work up from there.
Set it manually to 1.35V, boots fine. What the gently caress.
Set it to auto, so it uses the XMP profile.
Boots fine. What. The gently caress.

It's 1:30am and I had an 8:30 meeting so at that stage I went to bed, figuring it'd poo poo the bed in the morning. But nope, it's now booting with absolutely auto XMP profiles. I have no idea what has changed to make it work. All I can put it down to is little nano-beavers built up a dam across a gate somewhere in the RAM and upping the voltage washed away whatever blockage they'd built and now at 1.35V the electrons can flow freely again. Seriously though, clearly it's right on the edge of what's stable such that something changed to make it pass but it will probably start playing up again. Those sort of intermittant issues are a bitch to try to diagnose.

I'll run memtest on it overnight tonight to see whether it's stable at 1.35V. If so, I'm going to write this off as a bizarre mystery. Otherwise, at least I have a good way to start resolving the issue.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

I've never had a fully-populated DIMMed system not get wiggy after a while. 2x* for me from now on.

Prescription Combs
Apr 20, 2005
   6


Doesn't DDR5 have ECC built in?

taqueso
Mar 8, 2004









Palladium posted:

Even by .~*true*~. audiophile standards they make no sense anyway, when batteries exist which can deliver DC power without a iota of ripple.

The on-motherboard power supplies (VRM) are going to chop it up anyway so it's extra pointless.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Prescription Combs posted:

Doesn't DDR5 have ECC built in?

It doesn't mandate the thing everyone currently considers ECC which is CPU->RAM and called "side band ECC". DDR5 has "on die ECC" which is error correction within the module itself.
Way more detail: https://semiengineering.com/what-designers-need-to-know-about-error-correction-code-ecc-in-ddr-memories/

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



hobbesmaster posted:

It doesn't mandate the thing everyone currently considers ECC which is CPU->RAM and called "side band ECC". DDR5 has "on die ECC" which is error correction within the module itself.
Way more detail: https://semiengineering.com/what-designers-need-to-know-about-error-correction-code-ecc-in-ddr-memories/

There are rumors that the gamer ram is gonna have even the on-die ECC off too, so lol woops.

So the DDR5 choices at launch may be:

-High frequency gamer ram with worse latencies than DDR4, no ECC, certain sticks only overclocking on certain motherboards due to the PMIC interface, and insane prices.
-Green stick ram with ok frequencies, atrocious latencies, on-die ECC but no DIMM level ECC, no overclocking, and double insane prices.
-Bulk server platform with ok frequencies, atrocious latencies, full ECC, no overclocking, and triple insane prices (plus you need a server platform).

Cygni fucked around with this message at 20:09 on May 7, 2021

Shrimp or Shrimps
Feb 14, 2012




LRADIKAL posted:

Buy DDR4 now while it's still cheap! They're gonna stop making it soon and the price will go up forever!

Is this genuine advice? Because I want to upgrade my ram but perhaps incorrectly assumed prices would drop once DDR5 was released but yeah if they stop making it entirely then it obviously won't.

E: and would the same apply to pcie 3 nvme drives as pcie4 are on the market now?

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!



Shrimp or Shrimps posted:

Is this genuine advice? Because I want to upgrade my ram but perhaps incorrectly assumed prices would drop once DDR5 was released but yeah if they stop making it entirely then it obviously won't.

E: and would the same apply to pcie 3 nvme drives as pcie4 are on the market now?

Only kind of. Looking at what previous generations of DDR have had happen, it seems like the production dies down as everyone moves to the new stuff, but it doesn't stop completely. There's also a lot getting sold used in the secondary market as people get rid of their old systems over the next few years. For example, for something like DDR3, 1333 and 1600 are everywhere and dirt cheap. It's mostly the faster modules that become expensive because there's less of it and people will have theirs slowly crap out over time and want to replace like for like. Eventually it all becomes super cheap until it's basically an antique like DDR or DDR2 at which point it's kind of a specialized market of stuff that hasn't gotten recycled yet. At that point it'll only be used in retro systems or whatever.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

Won't the NVME be forwards/backwards compatible?

I'm kind of serious, but it depends on what kind of computer nerd you are... If you have a system that you're going to hang on to and maybe upgrade down the line or plan on turning a desktop into a server you might want to put large, fast DDR4 in it. Like the above user said, that stuff is going to get rare. If you were actually somehow investing in DDR4 futures the best time would have been last fall, but my GUESS would be that prices aren't going to get much cheaper in our current climate of high IC demand. Especially with DDR4 being on the way out.

picked a pretty big, fast piece of kit for an example.
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/w3FKHx/gskill-trident-z-neo-32-gb-2-x-16-gb-ddr4-3600-cl16-memory-f4-3600c16d-32gtznc?history_days=730
Here's another popular long for sale kit
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/kXbkcf/gskill-memory-f43200c16d32gvk?history_days=730

LRADIKAL fucked around with this message at 01:43 on May 9, 2021

Shrimp or Shrimps
Feb 14, 2012




Thanks for the replies. Actually I just want to move from some crappy 2933 cl21 oem samsung d-die stuff that can't oc to even 3200 without corrupting my OS to a nice fast 32gb kit as I'll be keeping this rig (10th gen Intel) for like 5 years at least assuming nothing breaks. drat yeah the prices last fall were much better but I didn't have this rig back then.

Good point on NVME compatibility, hadn't considered that.

Shrimp or Shrimps fucked around with this message at 01:50 on May 9, 2021

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



NVMe is to PCI-Ex what AHCI is to SATA - as long as it's supported, there shouldn't be any versioning differences.
The main difference between them is that NVMe has 2^16 queues where AHCI has 1, NVMe has 2^11 MSI-X interrupts where AHCI has a single IRQ interrupt, and NVMe has no locking where ACHI requires a synchronization lock. Oh, and NVMe is full-duplex while AHCI is half-duplex.

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 09:52 on May 9, 2021

Drakhoran
Oct 21, 2012



Apparently it does matter which B560 motherboard you choose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3AEj3x39vQ

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Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



The VRM throttling on that bad MSI board aside, the power limit situation has been happening since the 8700 launched but the reviewers never really seemed to figure it out, probably because they generally only use K SKU parts.

If you are sticking a 6, 8, or 10 core non-K part in a board and you have sufficient cooling, you are likely going to need to go into the bios and remove the TDP limits to get anywhere close to the numbers you might see in reviews. Thatís true regardless of which board or generation it is.

There are some boards that will turn the power limits off by default with a non-K part, but honestly thatís a bad design because the user very well could be using the tiny box fan in a sealed case with those tier of parts.

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