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BurritoJustice
Oct 9, 2012

BIG HEADLINE posted:

I'm looking at a laptop with a 13700HX so hopefully its shared pedigree with the 14th gen might make the laptop WiFi 7-capable.

That said, every WiFi 7 router seems to be eye-wateringly expensive at the moment and if I recall the first consumer products hitting the channel/shelves aren't fully-certified, either.

The original post is slightly mistaken, there's a follow-up from the same person saying it's working for 12th/13th gen too not just 14th. So it seems like a weird chipset limitation so far.

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Wild EEPROM
Jul 29, 2011


oh, my, god. Becky, look at her bitrate.
i upgraded from a xeon gold 5120 to a 6138 and its really cool just thought i would share

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009



movax posted:

Is it one of those things like the AX200/201 where it was PCIe vs. CNVi or something?
That was my first thought, and apparently also the first thought of the person who tweeted it, because they mention it.

It doesn't seem like it, at least according to this one report - but I'd like to have it cooperated, because it seems a pretty wild stance to take for Intel all of a sudden.
There's technical reasons why CNVi is the way it is with respect to exclusivity, and whether someone likes those or dislikes them is a matter of opinion, but I don't think it's up for discussion that if Intel are really doing some of the nonsense they're being accused of, they're probably gonna get a fair amount of bad press from it.

SamDabbers
May 26, 2003



Is there a technical benefit from CNVi over regular PCIe? They just split out the MAC block and moved it into the southbridge so only the PHY is still on the M.2 card, right? Power savings? Cost for integrators? Platform lock-in for Intel?

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

SamDabbers posted:

Is there a technical benefit from CNVi over regular PCIe? They just split out the MAC block and moved it into the southbridge so only the PHY is still on the M.2 card, right? Power savings? Cost for integrators? Platform lock-in for Intel?

I'm sure cost. Same as how the ethernet chips on most Intel mobos used to be just PHY chips. I guess now that wifi is more popular than ethernet, they've switched to putting wifi MAC & processing on the chipset instead of ethernet?

Also I would not be surprised if the RF signal processing stuff preferred a different process, so you have a mismatch between the RF wanting bigger transistors and the data processing that works fine with normal ones. Which would again be cost, but if you're already making the chipset chip it's way cheaper to add more stuff to that than make a second chip on the wifi module.


Only technical benefit I can think of is saving PCIe lanes, now that those have value.

Definitely not platform lock-in: nobody's gonna say "well I have to stick with Intel for my next upgrade so I can re-use my $25 wifi card". The only people really affected are those buying cheap ebay wifi modules that turn out to be platform-specific.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009



SamDabbers posted:

Is there a technical benefit from CNVi over regular PCIe? They just split out the MAC block and moved it into the southbridge so only the PHY is still on the M.2 card, right? Power savings? Cost for integrators? Platform lock-in for Intel?
I was sort-of hoping it'd mean that we'd move to softMAC in the long-term, but that hasn't really happened - so in short, no.

Mayne
Mar 22, 2008

To crooked eyes truth may wear a wry face.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISl-QQ5lWI4

Beef
Jul 26, 2004
imo it's just as likely that there was a bug or limitation in the Thread Director block than it's Intel Sales trying to artificially differentiate. But seeing how it's only the K products supporting APO I'm leaning towards the latter.

BurritoJustice
Oct 9, 2012

Beef posted:

imo it's just as likely that there was a bug or limitation in the Thread Director block than it's Intel Sales trying to artificially differentiate. But seeing how it's only the K products supporting APO I'm leaning towards the latter.

The 14th gen non-K processors don't support it because they don't exist yet.

Beef
Jul 26, 2004
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

Mental Hospitality
Jan 5, 2011

Intel Meteor Lake Iris Xe iGPU with 128 EUs trades blows with Radeon 780M and Apple M2 on Geekbench. I usually take these kinds of early benchmark leaks with a grain of salt but it looks like the iGPU of the new Meteor Lake mobile chips may offer a substantial improvement (at least in some cases) over the current mobile intel graphics. AMD's RDNA2/3 integrated graphics have held a comfortable lead, especially with driver support, but Intel could close this gap which would be a win for mobile users that enjoy some light gaming from time to time.

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014


does anything other than Geekbench actually use OpenCL

repiv
Aug 13, 2009

nothing ever used opencl really

Hasturtium
May 19, 2020

And that year, for his birthday, he got six pink ping pong balls in a little pink backpack.

Wild EEPROM posted:

i upgraded from a xeon gold 5120 to a 6138 and its really cool just thought i would share

Tell us why itís cool, OP

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Mental Hospitality posted:

Intel Meteor Lake Iris Xe iGPU with 128 EUs trades blows with Radeon 780M and Apple M2 on Geekbench. I usually take these kinds of early benchmark leaks with a grain of salt but it looks like the iGPU of the new Meteor Lake mobile chips may offer a substantial improvement (at least in some cases) over the current mobile intel graphics. AMD's RDNA2/3 integrated graphics have held a comfortable lead, especially with driver support, but Intel could close this gap which would be a win for mobile users that enjoy some light gaming from time to time.

Intel having competitive iGPUs with AMD APUs is a long time coming and I hope it's real

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

FuturePastNow posted:

does anything other than Geekbench actually use OpenCL

does anything other than mac reviews and headline-baiting "leaks" actually use Geekbench?


Upcoming Product Spotted on Geekbench with BIGNUM Score is not something I'd base any expectations on

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Klyith posted:

does anything other than mac reviews and headline-baiting "leaks" actually use Geekbench?

Yes. Actual serious CPU design company Nuvia (which got acquired by actual serious silicon company Qualcomm, and whose CPU cores are appearing soon in WoA SoCs from QC) used to post lots of material on their company blog based on Geekbench. When people like you gave them poo poo about it, they wrote a long post proving in detail that GB5's single thread scores correlate extremely well with SPECint/SPECfp single thread - you could use GB5 scores to predict SPEC scores with reasonable accuracy. They went on to point out that GB5 is a shitload easier, cheaper and quicker to run than SPEC, particularly for curious members of the public, which is why they were using it.

(And if you don't think CPU architects love themselves some SPEC, boy have I got news.)

The GPU stuff in GB (like the OpenCL test) is not that great, and I don't think anyone should pay much attention to it yet - overall it's way less mature than the CPU tests. The CPU tests in GB are way better than many people believe, though. Like all benchmarking tools, GB CPU has strengths and weaknesses, some of them deliberate choices, but it is legitimately useful.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

BobHoward posted:

(And if you don't think CPU architects love themselves some SPEC, boy have I got news.)

tpc-d found rowhammer like 5 years before the infosec community did

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week
"Correlates well with SPECint" is not as big a plus to me as you seem to think. SPECint is also high on my list where, if someone showed me one number being lots bigger, I'd shrug and wait for real desktop application benchmarks. And doubly so when those numbers were provided by a marketing department.

CPU designers are free to love themselves whatever tools they like. You could design a CPU using Chip's Challenge 95 as the performance target. I'm not a CPU designer and I don't run specint or geekbench for fun. It's not that the tool is objectively bad, it's that it is:
a) trying to test a vague general performance that is not necessarily correlated to any particular real app (spec say this themselves)
b) much easier for marketing departments to abuse by putting their fingers on the scales than real apps

And that second bit is the part where geekbench, and more particularly tech news that reports the appearance of pre-release submitted benchmarks in the geekbench database, is utterly worthless. Nuts if you believe that some engineer ran geekbench and then was like "oops I accidentally clicked upload score, now everyone knows about our secret prototype!" That's the marketing department uploading it, and they could be immersing the thing in a tank of liquid nitrogen for all you know. And it is totally deniable -- if the Meteor Lake GPU turns out to suck, nobody who pre-ordered based on news hype can say false advertising.



As for geekbench itself, any time I've noticed a results lineup for geekbench with x86 CPUs I have other performance metrics of, my reaction has been "well that's not the order I'd put those CPUs in". That's not an indictment of geekbench at all, there are plenty of other CPU benchmarks like sci compute and server that I don't give a poo poo about and gloss over. But geekbench gets extra prominence in mac reviews so I notice it more.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

FuturePastNow posted:

does anything other than Geekbench actually use OpenCL

Embedded image processing

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Klyith posted:

CPU designers are free to love themselves whatever tools they like. You could design a CPU using Chip's Challenge 95 as the performance target. I'm not a CPU designer and I don't run specint or geekbench for fun. It's not that the tool is objectively bad, it's that it is:
a) trying to test a vague general performance that is not necessarily correlated to any particular real app (spec say this themselves)
b) much easier for marketing departments to abuse by putting their fingers on the scales than real apps

I think you've got some very weird and counterfactual ideas about SPEC. They do not say (a) about themselves because SPEC is a suite of benchmarks derived from real applications. For example, one of the SPECint benchmarks consists of a version of GCC compiling itself. Same applies to Geekbench - it tries to be similar to SPEC CPU in a lot of ways, and this is one of them, right down to one of the integer tests being a C compiler (but iirc GB uses Clang).

Oh, and yes, of course it's silly to think every early 'leak' of scores through GB's online results database is real. I don't even think it's usually marketing departments, there's tons of clearly faked results in their DB. Who cares? Doesn't have anything to do with the validity of scores you generate for yourself, or those you know the provenance of.

Kivi
Aug 1, 2006
I care

SamDabbers posted:

Is there a technical benefit from CNVi over regular PCIe? They just split out the MAC block and moved it into the southbridge so only the PHY is still on the M.2 card, right? Power savings? Cost for integrators? Platform lock-in for Intel?
There's some nifty things for SIs, like you can lock out things like bands and frequencies at UEFI level, and it allows use of bluetooth keyboards in UEFI by using some sort of GPIO magic instead of USB.

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.
https://videocardz.com/newz/chinese-black-market-already-flooded-with-unreleased-intel-14th-gen-core-desktop-cpus

It looks like Intel is still doing two separate silicon versions, one with 2MB L2 cache and the other 13th Gen improvements, and one without. I thought that only the i5-K parts and higher got the new silicon, but it looks like the 14600 and 13600 got it too?

I also can't remember the last time when Intel sold identical cores with only very slight clock boosts for 3 years straight, I guess 6th/7th/8th/9th/10th but at least core counts were going up then. The i3s have been completely static for 12-14th gen.

Edit: I've also never seen Intels previous generations cannibalize the new ones anywhere near this much before:

Twerk from Home fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Nov 23, 2023

SpaceDrake
Dec 22, 2006

I can't avoid filling a game with awful memes, even if I want to. It's in my bones...!

Twerk from Home posted:

Edit: I've also never seen Intels previous generations cannibalize the new ones anywhere near this much before:


It's a god drat feeding frenzy out there. I get the distinct impression that Newegg and other retailers were not ready for Amazon to start liquidating their slow-moving Alder Lake parts, and now everyone's trying to match or exceed the already slashed-to-the-marrow deals on the 12600K/KF and 12700K/KF. I have a feeling this Friday is going to be absolutely wild.

...And the best part is, I still don't know if it'll be enough to counter the incredibly good deals on some of the 5000 parts and/or the 7600X, which got discounted a few days later, lol. The 12600KF sold enough on Amazon to get slightly backordered, but all other relevant SKUs are still seemingly fully in stock and able to be delivered.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Kivi posted:

There's some nifty things for SIs, like you can lock out things like bands and frequencies at UEFI level, and it allows use of bluetooth keyboards in UEFI by using some sort of GPIO magic instead of USB.

Nifty thingsÖ

Imagine the ptsd dog gif except instead of Vietnam itís scrolling through an entire yearís worth of weekly firmware drops from the baseband vendor that each will totally work this time.

Thatís me reading this post.

SRQ
Nov 9, 2009

Kivi posted:

There's some nifty things for SIs, like you can lock out things like bands and frequencies at UEFI level, and it allows use of bluetooth keyboards in UEFI by using some sort of GPIO magic instead of USB.

You've been able to use BT keyboards in MacOS firmware for going on a decade.
Like this isn't a LOL MAC BETTER just- why has it taken this long?

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

SRQ posted:

You've been able to use BT keyboards in MacOS firmware for going on a decade.
Like this isn't a LOL MAC BETTER just- why has it taken this long?

Apple knows which BT firmware blob to include in their firmware and that it works. For some definition of works anyway.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002

by Fluffdaddy
I got a 13700k about a year ago combined with a Asus Z790-P wifi board. Worked pretty good but would entirely blue screen with a Hardware watchdog timeout error running ONE program which was latencymon.exe. After replacing nearly everything in the system slowly over the year I finally got around to RMAing the 13700k with Intel who approved it because they seemed to be curious why latencymon would do that. Got new cpu, installed, zero lockups but also the voltages are a hell of a lot lower. I remember over 1.2v @ idle with my older cpu and assumed it was normal. This one dips down to .7-.8v at idle and low clocks, does not get that hot at max loads (under 100c) and also has less loving DPC latency spikes.

It could have just been a POS defective CPU which would be my first Intel ever, but also I got to thinking maybe the CPU pads wernt making good contact with the pins and/or the cpu substrate was warped slightly leading to bad pin contact.

Reading around, there are indeed folks getting defective 13700ks... not a lot but it seems to be a thing.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/content-details/794505/core-truths-how-the-latest-technology-is-not-always-what-it-seems.html









calling AMD snake oil and used car salesmen is... strong language, but it's also kinda funny because they sort of did this to themselves?

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

gradenko_2000 posted:

calling AMD snake oil and used car salesmen is... strong language, but it's also kinda funny because they sort of did this to themselves?

Selling an old CPU with a model number that hides the fact that it's a warmed-over refresh in the third digit: bad.

Selling an old CPU and calling it the new "14th generation" to hide the fact that it's a warmed-over refresh: fine.


(AMD's model number thing is bullshit, but lmao)

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/content-details/794505/core-truths-how-the-latest-technology-is-not-always-what-it-seems.html









calling AMD snake oil and used car salesmen is... strong language, but it's also kinda funny because they sort of did this to themselves?

Game recognize game.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014

by sebmojo
pot, kettle, black.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/content-details/794505/core-truths-how-the-latest-technology-is-not-always-what-it-seems.html









calling AMD snake oil and used car salesmen is... strong language, but it's also kinda funny because they sort of did this to themselves?

I suspect there is a version of this floating around inside intel about 13th vs 14th gen

Arzachel
May 12, 2012

Klyith posted:

Selling an old CPU with a model number that hides the fact that it's a warmed-over refresh in the third digit: bad.

Selling an old CPU and calling it the new "14th generation" to hide the fact that it's a warmed-over refresh: fine.


(AMD's model number thing is bullshit, but lmao)

Maybe laptop GPU naming schemes have given me brain damage but I can deal with the rebranding as long as it's consistent and somewhat human readable

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

Ok Intel enough poo poo talking I want to see the actually new i7-whatever Meteor Lake do something IRL

Perplx
Jun 26, 2004


Best viewed on Orgasma Plasma
Lipstick Apathy
Amd has depetive naming for laptop chips, intel has deceptive naming for everything.

Beef
Jul 26, 2004
Marketing chuds gonna chud

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post

Beef posted:

Marketing chuds gonna chud

i think my fav type of catty tech marketing is the "pointing out something lovely a competitor does while also doing the same thing recently/currently". such a classic of the genre.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.
Is it recent that amd passed intel in market cap because I saw that today and was surprised. Maybe I just havenít been paying attention.

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Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.
Speaking of branding, just remember not to buy an Intel Processor, they're cheap garbage and slower than anything else on the market.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/09/the-new-intel-processor-will-replace-pentium-and-celeron-cpu-branding-in-2023/

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