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Joe Slowboat
Nov 9, 2016

Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements





I'm honestly not fond of the way the comic frames the Paz thing, because honestly... Paz thinking Annie is bad for Kat, or a bad friend, is not that hard to understand! Jealousy may compound it but Annie has not been the greatest friend to Kat around the 'going to the forest' thing, or more generally leaning a ton on Kat. Kat has kind of a martyr thing going on for Annie, and while that's not Annie's fault, Paz getting that impression wouldn't help.

This isn't to say Annie deserves Paz' enmity, just that Paz isn't acting totally irrationally, this is the sort of thing that happens. But since we very much inhabit Annie Perspective, Paz is cast into a worse light.

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cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

Paz always had a dark side. Remember when she drowned that puppy, when nobody else was around?

Strawberry Pyramid
Dec 12, 2020


Joe Slowboat posted:

I'm honestly not fond of the way the comic frames the Paz thing, because honestly... Paz thinking Annie is bad for Kat, or a bad friend, is not that hard to understand! Jealousy may compound it but Annie has not been the greatest friend to Kat around the 'going to the forest' thing, or more generally leaning a ton on Kat. Kat has kind of a martyr thing going on for Annie, and while that's not Annie's fault, Paz getting that impression wouldn't help.

This isn't to say Annie deserves Paz' enmity, just that Paz isn't acting totally irrationally, this is the sort of thing that happens. But since we very much inhabit Annie Perspective, Paz is cast into a worse light.

And yet, the comic recently has outright stated that Annie is probably responsible for helping Kat develop into the good person Paz became enamored with in the first place.

On the subject of the comic, is this the "I'm sorry I did a bad thing" or "I'm sorry I got caught doing a bad thing"?

Kikas
Oct 30, 2012

EAT THE FISH!
EAT THE BERRIES!
TO THE CAVE!
HIBERNATE


AGDQ 2018 Awful Block Survivor



I think it's "I know I did a bad thing but I don't know to who or how should I apologize so I just feel bad", which is a lot of teenage drama.

madjack
Dec 31, 2013


Strawberry Pyramid posted:

And yet, the comic recently has outright stated that Annie is probably responsible for helping Kat develop into the good person Paz became enamored with in the first place.

On the subject of the comic, is this the "I'm sorry I did a bad thing" or "I'm sorry I got caught doing a bad thing"?

IF: Annie dies falling off the bridge:

Then: She never leaves her fingerprint on the moon > Chang'e never visits the Court > Matt never becomes enamoured with her > Awkward conversation with Kat never happens > Neither Paz nor Kat have cause to doubt their sexualities, at least for a while.


Paz outright says she's feeling bad about the handling of the confrontation, but I don't think for a second she's feeling bad about seeking it out, just how it went. Her opinion of Annie is still somewhere below sea level.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I stab at thee

I thought paz was Portuguese

Joe Slowboat
Nov 9, 2016

Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements





I don't mean Paz is a saint, nor that she's right about Annie - just that her perspective is pretty understandable. Kat and Annie's friendship has been tumultuous, and Annie is not good at communicating what is going on with her at the best of times.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.


Strawberry Pyramid posted:

On the subject of the comic, is this the "I'm sorry I did a bad thing" or "I'm sorry I got caught doing a bad thing"?

I think she's sorry she did it, though I'm sure that'll be gone into later. She saw Kat getting absorbed in the situation to possibly destructive ends and tried to fix it by bullying Annie and Annie.

maswastaken
Nov 12, 2011



Splicer posted:

I thought paz was Portuguese
Galician.

Daktar
Aug 19, 2008

I done turned 'er head into a slug an' now she's a-stucked!


Splicer posted:

I thought paz was Portuguese

She's from Galicia. It's part of Spain, but the local language is something between Spanish and Portuguese.

efb

CJacobs
Apr 17, 2011

Death Defied.


Yknow the village where RE4 takes place? Paz is from just down the road near the coast where the buildings are more hilly but there's still zombies

edit: Yknow the castle from DMC? Paz was created by Mundus to lure Kat down the path paz of darkness and that's why they have the same haircut now

Macaluso
Sep 23, 2005

I HATE THAT HEDGEHOG, BROTHER!


I have to hand it to Tom with regards to drawing Jones. I feel like it must be difficult to get Jones to always have that exact same expression in every panel she's in. Like obviously CAD had the problem of the characters always having that face, but that was just incompetence, I feel like it must be hard to draw Jones with that same expression and make it look almost 100% consistent across the whole comic, when you're drawing all the other characters in various ways. I can really think of only one panel where it looks like he slipped a bit with her eyebrows, during The Stone when it shows the flashback of her and Elgamore and she tries to comfort him.

Bonster
Mar 3, 2007

Keep rolling, rolling

I'm not liking how every character is "new Annie is so awesome!" We're getting total "tell, don't show".

Also, it seems like the two Annies were being seen increasingly as separate, unique people. You'd think someone might be a little bit bummed about their other friend vanishing (I know they combined, but it seemed they were becoming more identical twins than two parts of a whole).

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I stab at thee

Do you mean you don't like it because you think it's poor storytelling or do you mean you do like the storytelling and you're saying "I don't like where this is going "

I'm in the latter camp.

CYBEReris
Dec 15, 2007



I think how almost word-for-word identical the consensus is about annie and tony is supposed to be somewhat disturbing

GunnerJ
Aug 1, 2005

Do you think this is funny?


Bonster posted:

I'm not liking how every character is "new Annie is so awesome!" We're getting total "tell, don't show".

Not really, no. That applies to statements the audience knows are authorially correct. "Characters saying stuff about another character" is being shown what they think, not necessarily told what's the actual case. If a narrator popped up to say all the same things, that would be telling and not showing.

It's highly relevant how uncomfortable Annie looked when asked about her mental state, I think we are being shown that everyone thinks Annie is fine but that this is just an effective pretense.

GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Apr 5, 2021

GunnerJ
Aug 1, 2005

Do you think this is funny?


CYBEReris posted:

I think how almost word-for-word identical the consensus is about annie and tony is supposed to be somewhat disturbing

Jones' stonefaced non-reaction to all this testimony also gives a very big "we'll see about that" vibe to the whole thing, even though that's just how her face is.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I stab at thee

I think Zimmy has Zimmy'd everything and Jones is unaffected because Jones and she's noticed something is off

Depicted: Jones vs all this nonsense
https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=839

e: Or this is all in Annies' heads and Jones represents her somethings not right here feelings. Or both!

Splicer fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Apr 5, 2021

CJacobs
Apr 17, 2011

Death Defied.


Splicer posted:

I think Zimmy has Zimmy'd everything and Jones is unaffected because Jones and she's noticed something is off

This seems clear as of this page imo. Zimmy did her Zimmy-ing without consulting anyone about it first and only Renard was 'inside' when it happened.

edit: Perhaps she's seeking Tony not because he treats Antimony differently after her "recombining", but because he is the only one who WOULDN'T be treating Annie differently as he already both paid attention to and disregarded her at the same time, technically! Tony's like the perfect litmus test for "is the whole world screwed up in a metaphysical sense right now" as it turns out!

CJacobs fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Apr 5, 2021

Darth TNT
Sep 20, 2013


Bonster posted:

I'm not liking how every character is "new Annie is so awesome!" We're getting total "tell, don't show".

Also, it seems like the two Annies were being seen increasingly as separate, unique people. You'd think someone might be a little bit bummed about their other friend vanishing (I know they combined, but it seemed they were becoming more identical twins than two parts of a whole).
Big twist. No one actually likes any of the Annis and now they’re ready to start over.

madjack
Dec 31, 2013


Splicer posted:

e: Or this is all in Annies' heads and Jones represents her somethings not right here feelings. Or both!

I like this idea...

All these characters keep just bringing up her dad treating the Annies differently, almost unprompted, don't they?

CJacobs
Apr 17, 2011

Death Defied.


Note also that Jones said to Annie "people wonder about your mental state" when only Parley really spoke about that and it was with the same "oh yeah I'm sure she's totally fine but her DA' now that guy's a piece of work" as everyone else

J.A.B.C.
Jul 2, 2007

There's no need to rush to be an adult.


CJacobs posted:

Note also that Jones said to Annie "people wonder about your mental state" when only Parley really spoke about that and it was with the same "oh yeah I'm sure she's totally fine but her DA' now that guy's a piece of work" as everyone else

Maybe the 'people' Jones mentioned is Tony, and he is the only one actually worried.

CJacobs
Apr 17, 2011

Death Defied.


I'll believe Tony has worried about something other than Surma when I see it

Edit: if you wanted to go full-on tinfoil-hat you could see this chapter as a reflection of the previous one. Antimony's old chums spitting disgruntled hearsay at Tony like the elf kids chasing down Zimmy saying she was spider climbing walls n poo poo (not that I doubt it)... Hell, the chapter even started with Annie and Renard leaving home, turning a corner and walking face first into someone again. Just that Kat is here instead of another Annie.

CJacobs fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Apr 5, 2021

rannum
Nov 3, 2012



Parley was kind of like: this is weird, but also stronger? Confident? That could be helpful. man gently caress tony tho
The secondary friend squad was: this is weird, i was kind of getting used to there being 2 of them, they were even kind of different people. man gently caress tony tho.
Paz: yeah i kind of hosed up when there were two of them. Kat seems shockingly okay now there's only one of them? Way better than the rest of us. man gently caress tony tho


I get the vibe of "this is all really weird, and we dont know how to handle it" and trying to be polite about it.



Side note it's nice to see the selfreflection on Paz. After her comments right after the norn chapter I wasnt sure she realyl got it.

Cavatica
Nov 2, 2010



The self-reflection is nice to see, but it still has me wondering exactly what she intends to apologize for. She keeps saying that how she went about it was bad and embarrassing, and that she didn't mean for it to go "like that." Which, fine. But it's a bit of a leap to say "I handled that badly" when you screamed "you do not deserve to be her friend."

That kind of vitriol came from somewhere, and honestly that's the meat I want to see explored.

cropoval
Feb 16, 2020



rannum posted:

Parley was kind of like: this is weird, but also stronger? Confident? That could be helpful. man gently caress tony tho
The secondary friend squad was: this is weird, i was kind of getting used to there being 2 of them, they were even kind of different people. man gently caress tony tho.
Paz: yeah i kind of hosed up when there were two of them. Kat seems shockingly okay now there's only one of them? Way better than the rest of us. man gently caress tony tho


I get the vibe of "this is all really weird, and we dont know how to handle it" and trying to be polite about it.

Yeah this was my vibe too, it's not that people aren't worried but when Annie is acting so happy on the surface it's hard to tell whether this is actually bad or not. Everybody has picked up that Tony is a jerk at this point, though, so they're more confident saying that.

I've never really hated Paz for her going after Annie. It was definitely bad and unjustified, but I always got the impression it was a realistic thing for a teenager to do in that scenario. I imagine it might have worked better if we got a tidbit of her perspective at some point- if she'd been seeing her girlfriend be consistently obsessed and worried over what's going on with Annie for a few months, I could see how Paz's (still bad) reaction would be "Annie's being such a jerk if she doesn't notice Kat being that worried." Happy she's reflecting on it now.

Hempuli
Nov 15, 2011



Definitely happy to see Paz understanding that she wasn't being nice to Annies; although yeah, ganging up on them with bad intent needs a bit of extra apologizing even if nothing came out of it :/

Willias
Sep 3, 2008


J.A.B.C. posted:

Maybe the 'people' Jones mentioned is Tony, and he is the only one actually worried.

I think this makes sense. Tony sensed something different between the two versions of his daughter, which is why he was nice to one and cold to the other.

Now that both are merged, I wonder how Tony is handling it? Annie seems happy, so I suspect he's acting warm but secretly freaking the gently caress out.

Wittgen
Oct 13, 2012

We have decided to decline your offer of a butt kicking.


Yikes. Really don't think Tony's emotional abuse has anything to do with Annie herself. If it ends up being some difference on the two Annies end that drove the different treatment rather than something in Tony's head, that would really suck.

Hempuli
Nov 15, 2011



My interpretation was definitely that Tony saw one of the Annies as "the" Annie and consequently had his usual difficulties with that one, while the other one wasn't "the" Annie and thus he could feel more relaxed. That said, I 100% would've expected Tony to be cold towards this combined Annie again because, well, she'd be "the" Annie again.

Annointed
Mar 2, 2013



just split into two annies and reform to vicariously feel loving parents

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007


either way we’re probably going to see a conversation between a stone-faced humanoid entity insensate to emotions as mortals comprehend them, and Jones

Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Apr 6, 2021

Lurdiak
Feb 25, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.




I think we can all agree that Paz is nice and people should stop saying mean things about her.

CJacobs
Apr 17, 2011

Death Defied.


I picture Tony's treatment of Annie & Annie as having a little more to do with his neuroses, personally. Not really a "this is not my Antimony" thing so much as a "I do not know this Antimony" thing. Time and time again we've seen that he cannot relate in any way to someone he hasn't known for a long period of time with at least some of that time being spent alone one-on-one. We know from Annie herself that they didn't have this relationship when she was a child ("My father is a... quiet man"), but one Annie has/had lived with him since Loup's power trip and thus has spent that time, and the other had not. Tony seems to have never reconciled them as one individual according to Annie's('s) wishes like everyone else did, so he clams up around the Annie he sees as not having spent as much time around. But once you're cooped up together, actually spending that time is gonna take... time. Sorry for saying time so much

edit: And like Court Annie said when this came up in the comic a while back, it's a step by step thing with Tony and it's not like either of the Antimony's just forgot that. For father's day hopefully she gets him some nice fatherly New Balance slip-on's.

CJacobs fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Apr 6, 2021

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I stab at thee

CJacobs posted:

I picture Tony's treatment of Annie & Annie as having a little more to do with his neuroses, personally. Not really a "this is not my Antimony" thing so much as a "I do not know this Antimony" thing. Time and time again we've seen that he cannot relate in any way to someone he hasn't known for a long period of time with at least some of that time being spent alone one-on-one. We know from Annie herself that they didn't have this relationship when she was a child ("My father is a... quiet man"), but one Annie has/had lived with him since Loup's power trip and thus has spent that time, and the other had not. Tony seems to have never reconciled them as one individual according to Annie's('s) wishes like everyone else did, so he clams up around the Annie he sees as not having spent as much time around. But once you're cooped up together, actually spending that time isn't gonna happen instantly.

edit: And like Court Annie said when this came up in the comic a while back, it's a step by step thing with Tony and it's not like either of the Antimony's just forgot that. For father's day hopefully she gets him some nice fatherly New Balance slip-on's.
I thought it was court Annie he can't talk to?

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


They also did stuff when she was a kid. Hence her memories of them doing martial arts together and her holding his gi.

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



If anything I'd have said it's the opposite. Tony knows exactly how bad a father he is, and just how much he needs to make up for for the harm he's done to Annie and her life up to this point. But he has no idea what he can do to make things up to her, so he freezes up, and can only really manage the stern disciplinarian attitude that was such a problem in the first place and only making things worse.

But with Forest Annie, if she was just a creation of Loup's or pulled in from another timeline then that's an Annie he doesn't owe that debt to - perhaps some other Tony in another world does, but it wouldn't have been him, and he could get over himself and actually treat her like the daughter he'd always wanted and needed to treat her as. Perhaps later he'd have learned that Forest Annie is no less real or his than Court Annie but by that point he'd already got past that awkwardness barrier, while he still hadn't with Court Annie (after all, he still hadn't done anything to make amends for his past abuse).

It's an open question how he treats the combined Annie now. Is she the girl he still needs to make things right with, or the one he learned to talk to?

maswastaken
Nov 12, 2011



It really could just be as simple as the moment being right. It happened once and it could keep on happening.

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Irukandji Syndrome
Dec 26, 2008


New page:

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2451

And it comes with a coloring error! Look at Idra's hand on Eglamore's waist.

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