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Bleck posted:yeah but he made her take her makeup off!!! "remove that ridiculous makeup" was the very first thing he said to his estranged daughter upon being reintroduced from being missing for six years. Context, c'mon.
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May 13, 2021 17:50
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Tony cried until he passed out thinking about what he did to Annie that first day, there's not really any sense in downplaying it.
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May 13, 2021 18:19
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Reacting poorly at seeing your daughter after 6 years while her future is being held hostage by some weird creeps and also she looks identical to the dead woman you almost died trying to rescue from the afterlife actually warrants the death penalty, sorry tony lovers.
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May 13, 2021 18:25
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I see we're back to the "people who inexplicably think the fictional character of Anthony Carver is not liked enough by the fans making really weird bad faith arguments to try to prove some point that only makes sense to them" part of the thread cycle.
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May 13, 2021 18:29
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Anthony Carver tweaks his enourmous W shaped moustache. "Now to kill my daughter to ressurrect my wife! Just the the psychopomps explicitly told me! I sure hope no demon girls stop my devious plan!"
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May 13, 2021 18:51
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God, when did this thread become nothing but insufferable hyperbolic straw man arguments? Not that I haven't contributed to that once or twice. Gross. ...gonna maybe unsubscribe and check back in a chapter or three. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 19:05 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 19:00
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It happens pretty much any time the comic is even lightly criticized. It's either that or a bunch of "No we swear this will be explained/is setting up for something later!"
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May 13, 2021 19:07
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Lurdiak posted:bad faith arguments Ditocoaf posted:straw man arguments I see we're in big brain posting time
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May 13, 2021 19:27
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This is what happens when we are deprived of the correct number of Annies (two).
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May 13, 2021 19:49
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its actually three annies when you count original (dead) annie, who is narrating
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May 13, 2021 19:58
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Maybe Annie actually went into a coma on the bridge and the whole comic since has been an increasingly weird figment of her imagination. Like Homer Simpson.
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May 13, 2021 20:14
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Hodgepodge posted:Yeah, they're basically scum because they contribute in a minute and accidental manner to the stigmatization of mental health issues. This inadvertantly increases, and in fact contributes to, abuse. Me: I have mental illness not dissimilar to Tony's. I was abused by my father. I want that to be taken into account when reading my opinions about Tony. Some clown car: So you want to stigmatize mental illness and contribute to abuse Okay! Maybe that's enough of ever expressing opinions about this comic if its fans are going to act like this every time I do. Irukandji Syndrome fucked around with this message at 20:56 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 20:52
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At this point I'm less interested in hearing about Tony, who I feel I have a pretty good grasp of, and more interested in understanding what's going on with the adults who are enabling and exploiting his mental illness for some reason.
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May 13, 2021 21:27
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you think at his old workplace people ever made jokes about him being a surgeon named carver
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May 13, 2021 21:56
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Rand Brittain posted:At this point I'm less interested in hearing about Tony, who I feel I have a pretty good grasp of, and more interested in understanding what's going on with the adults who are enabling and exploiting his mental illness for some reason. Yeah, for real, whatever your feelings about the dude it should be clear that he's not capable of being a caregiver to annie in his current state, and they should not be living together. I mean, poo poo the dude literally cannot separate the ideas of his wife and his loving daughter, which is super hosed up and creepy on a whole bunch of levels. I really don't know what Tom's going for in exploring this incredibly hosed up dynamic, but it definitely feels like the comic is at its lowest point with all this tony bullshit. Annie being happy now because shes found a way to rationalise the neglect and abuse is a weird moral for this chapter, and the longer this bullshit drags on the less confident I am that this is actually going somewhere that's going to payoff in the long run in a satisfying way
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May 13, 2021 22:30
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Idk why you guys assume that Annie saying a thing, a character famous for deluding herself, in the middle of an incomplete chapter means that her take away is the objective moral of the story. Because Annie has always been such a perfectly rationale person. Like a bunch of people reacted like Annie fusing was definitely being completely brushed off and based on this chapter it clearly isn't so "wait and see" isn't a completely unreasonable approach. Riot Bus fucked around with this message at 22:38 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 22:36
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Irukandji Syndrome posted:Me: I have mental illness not dissimilar to Tony's. I was abused by my father. I want that to be taken into account when reading my opinions about Tony. Yeah, I'm sorry for that post. I was being extremely sarcastic, but this isn't a thread where it's really appropriate to prioritize humor or sarcasm over people's ability to feel safe expressing their feelings. The emotional weight of the subject matter means that people's investment in it is often strong for very good reasons. At least, a straightforward indication that I wasn't being entirely serious was needed.
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May 13, 2021 22:39
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I just don't understand why everyone feels the need to be so snide and combative and make hyperbolic posts around this topic. I understand mental illness and possible child abuse are very serious topics that cut close to the bone of people's real life experiences, but there's no need to be so antagonistic to people who disagree about you about a fictional character's moral fiber, especially in a story that has yet to resolve. This isn't a thread about a contentious political topic or anything like that, the posters who disagree with you are not negatively affecting your life.
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May 13, 2021 22:47
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Right now I feel that the only satisfying conclusion to this chapter would be seeing Jones make a phonecall to CPS (or whatever the UK equivalent is)
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May 13, 2021 22:49
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Riot Bus posted:Idk why you guys assume that Annie saying a thing, a character famous for deluding herself, in the middle of an incomplete chapter means that her take away is the objective moral of the story. Because Annie has always been such a perfectly rationale person. Basically yesterday's comic is about Annie feeling a lot better about herself because she overcame the psychological defense mechanism referred to as splitting. (This is, in fact, extremely on the nose to the point of feeling like a pun). That's a really great sign; splitting is for example associated with Borderline Personality Disorder, which is highly associated with emotional neglect and abandonment (this was the case for my father). It doesn't mean she's okay though. She's grown in one sense, but her behaviour is still ultimately predicated on unconditional, one sided acceptance of her father. At the same time, she probably does legitimately feel like she can contextualize his behaviour much more easily now and probably does need time to develop that new and (in itself) healthier perspective. But even that's tragic, because what we've just been told and Annie hasn't is that not even her dad wants their relationship to be this way. And while we've been quite down on people not taking this seriously, in this case Jones is actually a metaphor for a social worker and removal from custody was likely on the table the moment Tony's behaviour came up as a significant concern from multiple sources reporting a consistent pattern.
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May 13, 2021 23:06
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The real reason why people react so strongly to Tony is that he was originally cloned more or less directly from Gendo Ikari. It's in his memes- he's the (other) Son of Bad Dad.
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May 13, 2021 23:13
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I think that people have a lot of different ideas about what kind of story is being told here. For myself, I will wait and see where this is all going, wisely.
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May 13, 2021 23:47
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I'm much more interested in the subplot hinted at of the Court's manipulation of Tony and Annie, and Diego and Paz's descent into jealous madness of "science makes monsters of men because it destroys their ability to feel empathy and compassion for those they wish to use for their own ends, or see as obstacles to those ends." He pretty came out and said with Zimmy "science worship is for dumbs!"
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May 14, 2021 00:30
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btw if anyone wants to read the story of the first Kat, Qualia of Purple is basically that.
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May 14, 2021 01:32
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a cartoon duck posted:you think at his old workplace people ever made jokes about him being a surgeon named carver I was going to say that The Carver would absolutely be a Batman villain but then I googled the name and it's a Nip/Tuck villain instead.
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May 14, 2021 02:16
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Riot Bus posted:Idk why you guys assume that Annie saying a thing, a character famous for deluding herself, in the middle of an incomplete chapter means that her take away is the objective moral of the story. Because Annie has always been such a perfectly rationale person. e: my assumption is the chapter will close out with reynardine talking to annie
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May 14, 2021 03:42
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Strawberry Pyramid posted:I'm much more interested in the subplot hinted at of the Court's manipulation of Tony and Annie, and Diego and Paz's descent into jealous madness of "science makes monsters of men because it destroys their ability to feel empathy and compassion for those they wish to use for their own ends, or see as obstacles to those ends." I agree that my frustration with Tony time is more that I was pulled into this comic by the layered intrigue about the morally obtuse Court itself and what felt like a rising conflict with the Forest. Even though things have gotten weird and volatile, the discoveries and developments there have stalled out pacing-wise in favor of exploring Annie and her father’s psyches in what sometimes (to me) feel like repetitive and stagnant ways. Mixed with occasional resolutions of other tensions that (to me) feel too clean and magical. Such as this Annie fusing or the Norn time puddle. I am overall still a fan of the comic, have no doubts I will continue reading, and still love the art and characters, but I haven't been feeling that excitement for a new page for a while, to be honest. e: Also I am sorry if my occasional flippant shitposts have been frustrating to people for whom this subject strikes a raw nerve. I empathize with both Tony and Annie and feel a solid amount of disappointment that (going by this panel) the beginnings of healing from Tony's harm are coming not from his own growth and efforts at breaking through his cage, but from "Annie is totally fine with this situation". This panel feels like an earnest attempt at catharsis and does the opposite for me. And frankly I don't want this to "not be the end of it" for Annie's feelings on her dad or her fusing, even though it doesn't feel like an earned or emotionally resonant end, because I just want to read about other things at this point. Fecha fucked around with this message at 04:34 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 04:24
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Fecha posted:Even though things have gotten weird and volatile, the discoveries and developments there have stalled out pacing-wise in favor of exploring Annie and her father’s psyches in what sometimes (to me) feel like repetitive and stagnant ways. Mixed with occasional resolutions of other tensions that (to me) feel too clean and magical. Such as this Annie fusing or the Norn time puddle. Yeah, this is how I feel too. I get the same vibes from the fusion as I did waiting for the other shoe to drop during the Norns chapter, which is why I'm pretty skeptical of all the "no just wait, they're going to address it for real any minute now" stuff.
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May 14, 2021 05:12
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The problem with Tony is that he was far more interesting when he wasn’t there in person. Turns out the guy who went on a quest to reverse death and helped pioneer weird physics defying things like that satellite that teleported a rocket or whatever... is just a damaged, emotionally neglectful father who can’t move past his wife’s death and has instead disassociated. Which wouldn’t be so bad if this was explored in ways other than pages of exposition with comic panels that are literally drawings of what’s being explained in the text.
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May 14, 2021 05:19
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drkeiscool posted:The problem with Tony is that he was far more interesting when he wasn’t there in person. Turns out the guy who went on a quest to reverse death and helped pioneer weird physics defying things like that satellite that teleported a rocket or whatever... is just a damaged, emotionally neglectful father who can’t move past his wife’s death and has instead disassociated. tbf you could read tony as a brutally honest deconstruction of rick, or more broadly the mad scientist (maybe with, again, gendo ikari as the most direct target). like instead of this grand romance about their great genius they're actually all just sad men who cant or wont get over their dead wives. and can't even do the one thing their dead wife would absolutely want them to do.
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May 14, 2021 05:39
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the fundamental issue is that according to the text of the comic, tony is an abuser, and even though the comic has not said that its okay he's an abuser because he has really bad brain problems explicitly, by spending so many words on exploring his motives it effectively has implied that via subtext. like, tony is a child abuser, that's the long and short of it. he has reasons for behaving that way, but the facts of his abuse remain, and the fact he has not taken steps to stop that abuse makes him insanely destructive to annie's mental and emotional well being.
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May 14, 2021 06:17
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Gunnerkrigg always struck me as setting out to be a YA fantasy/boarding-school bildung narrative, and not a darker and edgier deconstruction of it I don't think it was ever meant to be a misery lit abuse narrative. the Return of Dad is not a setup for a big cathartic showdown but is instead just further exploration of Antimony's(') own maturation as a person likewise it wasn't setting out to be high-concept fiction around primer.jpg time travel, or prestige.jpg identity
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May 14, 2021 06:29
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Hodgepodge posted:Yeah, I'm sorry for that post. I was being extremely sarcastic, but this isn't a thread where it's really appropriate to prioritize humor or sarcasm over people's ability to feel safe expressing their feelings. The emotional weight of the subject matter means that people's investment in it is often strong for very good reasons. At least, a straightforward indication that I wasn't being entirely serious was needed. A big flaming stink posted:the fundamental issue is that according to the text of the comic, tony is an abuser, and even though the comic has not said that its okay he's an abuser because he has really bad brain problems explicitly, by spending so many words on exploring his motives it effectively has implied that via subtext. Like sure you can point to the lead-up of a bunch of characters having polarized (and mainly negative) opinions on him, but we know they don't have the whole story. Ultimately the reader-proxy (Annie) with the most knowledge of all of them seems to be accepting his actions to some degree. It's a really common narrative setup to have a bunch of characters show varying opinions on something from various sides without all the information, then at the end have one character with a better understanding present a more fully rounded opinion that we're more likely to absorb as the last word and the correct take. The comic has devoted like three whole chapters to Tony's inner emotional complexities and none chapters to him writing an apology to the daughter he's chronically neglected (or getting therapy, or like, literally any kind of attempt to amend the pain he's caused). Tony also focuses a lot on his own pain. He claims to love Annie but doesn't seem to talk about or empathize with how much his words and actions have hurt her emotionally, only the physical aspects, like his regret over nearly killing her on accident. How much does he understand he's harmed her psychologically? How much does he even know her as a person?
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May 14, 2021 07:00
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Getting the answer to that question will entail more chapters about him. Is that what you want?
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May 14, 2021 07:04
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Bongo Bill posted:Getting the answer to that question will entail more chapters about him. Is that what you want? I want one of those one-page chapters like the one where he gives Renard back. It's just him agonizing over then putting a sticky note on the fridge that says "I'm sorry I was gone for years" and Annie smiles looking at it and sure it's small but shows he's trying. Literally just a little bit of anything in that direction and I would be satisfied. 
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May 14, 2021 07:12
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Irukandji Syndrome posted:I want one of those one-page chapters like the one where he gives Renard back. It's just him agonizing over then putting a sticky note on the fridge that says "I'm sorry I was gone for years" and Annie smiles looking at it and sure it's small but shows he's trying. Well we're getting that in this chapter, only Tony is aware of the fact that he literally can't do that. He was so overwhelmed by the fact that he has an issue that it never ocurred to him what to do to solve it.
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May 14, 2021 07:16
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Irukandji Syndrome posted:Thank you, I appreciate it. Sorry for taking it so seriously, I am having a bad day. It happens, hope you're feeling better. quote:This hits the nail on the head for me. I suspect that part of the issue is that the comic presents a very progressive society in many regards, but this seems to be implicitly very much not the case for mental and emotional health issues. That's not even really so out there. Also, while I hesitate to use an implicit assumption of progress to explain something like this as "in the past," there is a semi-autobiographical element here as I understand it. It probably shows the most in no one using cells phones or the internet much, if at all. Basically I don't know how things are now, but within the last few generations at least mental health and emotional issues just Not Being Talked About was very much a thing anywhere near the upper class of Britain. (This is also implicit in Harry Potter where all Harry's abuse just sort of goes away completely or gets expressed as comical revenge sequences; literally no one cares including Harry). Also it may help to reiterate that we're basically seeing Jones be a social worker. That this is happening because of a tangentially-related incident which Annie is totally fine with and is motivated more by the Court's investment in Annie than concern for her wellbeing as a child in their care is pretty on point here. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 07:53 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 07:49
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Ah, I see. Annie is coming to terms not only with the fact that her father wronged her, but also the fact that she can see through him enough to understand what led him to do so. The time of one's life when a parent becomes a person.
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May 14, 2021 08:33
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May 14, 2021 09:19
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Welp, daddy issues solved. (Dusts hands) Next!
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May 14, 2021 12:42
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