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Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)


Honestly I don't remember Joshua being particularly mean to Estelle at all.

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Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

This avatar helped buy Lowtax a new back.



I've only played a bit of Sky 1, but everyone kinda treats Estelle like she has a serious cognitive disability and couldn't get dressed in the morning without Joshua when she's just basically an ordinary shonen protagonist but a girl. I'm guessing it doesn't get much better over the rest of the series?

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

He isnít really, someytimes he chastised her when she is being ditzy but it only comes up a couple times

Honestly him and the main cast praise her far more than make fun of her. Though no where near where the series goes later.

Though that might be because dual protagonists spread the compliments out which made it more bearable. I think going back to that would make me feel a bit better about it.

I am not sure where the idea people are overly mean to her comes from but it isnít the games

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

I mean, no, that's exactly the opposite of what I said. Like SC has some issues of its own but they're far more tolerable ones that are more just "Joshua is still kind of dull and having him be as important as he is is a boring choice" rather than Estelle no longer being able to walk two feet without getting told off.

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

I LIKE TO MAKE VAGUE THREATS TO PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET BECAUSE I AM TOUGH GUY. P.S. ASK ME ABOUT THE TIME A GIRL BEAT ME UP IN GRADE SCHOOL. HER NAME WAS SUZIE SHE DREW A BIG WEINER ON MY FOREHEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tired Moritz posted:

Honestly I don't remember Joshua being particularly mean to Estelle at all.

He's not viciously insulting or anything but he lectures her constantly like he's got twenty years' experience on her.

Commander Keene posted:

I've only played a bit of Sky 1, but everyone kinda treats Estelle like she has a serious cognitive disability and couldn't get dressed in the morning without Joshua when she's just basically an ordinary shonen protagonist but a girl. I'm guessing it doesn't get much better over the rest of the series?

It actually gets a lot better in Second Chapter, almost immediately.

Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Oct 17, 2020

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


CharlestheHammer posted:

I am not sure where the idea people are overly mean to her comes from but it isnít the games
Lol dude you arent the definitive source on objective fact

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Sakurazuka posted:

Star Ocean 3 has the worst combat I've ever played in a videogame
I got it from the store used back when it was fairly new and got to the first drat fight and went "wow this feels horrible" and took it back right away. I didn't even get to the structural issues with like mp death and stuff, it just felt horrible to make your character do things.

Motto
Aug 3, 2013



I agree with criticisms of Sky insofar that it's not some immaculate masterwork that the later games betrayed and is just as willing to delve into some boring standbys from time to time, but yeah, I don't get the idea that it's unceasing negative interactions. Even just within FC, the last chapter has everybody deferring to Estelle.

Honestly the way people talk about the series here made me put it down entirely a few hours into SC and ~30 into CS1, and it took seeing people play both elsewhere to remind me that oh yeah, those games were pretty fun actually.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007


best moment of SC (and the one that made getting all those bracer points worthwhile) was estelle pulling rank on the entire erebonian army

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


Motto posted:

and it took seeing people play both elsewhere to remind me that oh yeah, those games were pretty fun actually.

Summary of goon thread

Tales of Woe
Dec 17, 2004



the trails games are all good, i don't think there's any like major fluctuations in quality over the series thus far, most of this stuff is pretty nitpicky. even cold steel 2 which is my least favorite still has good combat and some cool bits. and duvalie.

people balking at cold steel has a parallel in like half a dozen other jrpg series where for some reason it takes moving to full 3d for people to realize they were playing a trope-heavy anime game all along

Mirello
Jan 29, 2006
The Nameless One


I mean not to be like "you guys missed the point" but estelle is supposed to be much more competent than the others treat her as. it's the journey over 2 games of others realizing that rather than being in josh or her dad's shadows, she can reach them and even surpass them. beyond that joshua isn't really treated like a god to the extant of rean. His decision at the end of 1 is supposed to be seen as pretty lovely, but understandable due to his trauma.

just background on my opinions, I think estelle is the best protagonist, followed closely by lloyd, and I despise rean so much it makes me not really look forward to cs4. estelle and lloyds relationships with those around them really make the games, however the worship of rean by others (really starting in cs2 and then getting much worse in 3) really turns me off. He also just has so many amazing traits it's a bit unbelievable.

FractalSandwich
Apr 25, 2010


Tales of Woe posted:

people balking at cold steel has a parallel in like half a dozen other jrpg series where for some reason it takes moving to full 3d for people to realize they were playing a trope-heavy anime game all along
Just imagine how they'll react to Disgaea 6!

corn on the cop
Oct 12, 2012

Break what must be broken, once for all, that's all, and take the suffering on oneself.

√ʬĬē Corey Dostoyevsky

Tales of Woe posted:

the trails games are all good

Yes

Looper
Mar 1, 2012




i was kinda expecting him to be a bland generic protagonist boy but ended up really liking kou from tokyo xanadu ex+. he's a depressed workaholic and doesn't understand why, and keeps putting up barriers between himself and other people despite also being a colossal busybody who knows everyone in town. i enjoyed getting to know his personal history and place in the setting

tokyo xanadu is great

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



wish it was fun to play tho

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013

I commute by bike!


i don't think tokyo xanadu plays badly it just doesn't have any variety and there are only like two characters with movesets that don't feel a bit stiff

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?



Outside of some crappy platforming I never had any issues with the gameplay.

A Sometimes Food
Dec 8, 2010

Relinquish your foolish
delusions of control.





I pretty much agree with the issues raised about Sky. But even if Estelle was maybe done a bit dirty by the games she was still a fun protag. Whereas even if Coldsteel was better written, Rean would still be Rean no matter how he was handled.

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013

I commute by bike!


wouldn't a theoretically better written cold steel focus harder on the more interesting aspects of rean as a character overall

Bland
Aug 31, 2008


Winner Of The TRP I dont actually remember the contest im pretty high right now here's your venkys tag




On the what now?

multijoe
Oct 15, 2007

NYO~HO


Fun Shoe

A Sometimes Food posted:

I pretty much agree with the issues raised about Sky. But even if Estelle was maybe done a bit dirty by the games she was still a fun protag. Whereas even if Coldsteel was better written, Rean would still be Rean no matter how he was handled.

Yeah, I always thought Rean Coldsteel's writing came off as a little juvenile

(spoilered for slurs)

booksnake
May 4, 2009

we who are crowned with the crest of wisdom

I'm playing Cold Steel 3 right now and I'm enjoying his little teaching moments so the direction of these past few pages feels excessively hostile to me. But I suppose I've not been exposed to a critical mass of problems since I only just got to where Olivier joins the party.

e: maybe this is specific to CS1-2 Rean in which case, uh... well, I have low standards for shonen protagonist teenagers and stuff like his motivational speeches becoming a running joke felt endearing?

booksnake fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Oct 17, 2020

END ME SCOOB
Mar 27, 2007

Like, I shoulda known the dog would smell it, man. I was way too high to bury him deep enough! I guess we gotta do this, huh? Alright, Scoob, get ready for my full power! DON'T HOLD BACK, PAL!

ZOINKS!

Looper posted:

i was kinda expecting him to be a bland generic protagonist boy but ended up really liking kou from tokyo xanadu ex+. he's a depressed workaholic and doesn't understand why, and keeps putting up barriers between himself and other people despite also being a colossal busybody who knows everyone in town. i enjoyed getting to know his personal history and place in the setting

tokyo xanadu is great

Amppelix posted:

wish it was fun to play tho

Definitely where I'm at. A buddy of mine just blazed through it and said it has a good payoff but god, playing TX feels like so much more of a slog than Cold Steel. Especially since the dungeons haven't really changed since chapter 2.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Mirello posted:

I mean not to be like "you guys missed the point" but estelle is supposed to be much more competent than the others treat her as. it's the journey over 2 games of others realizing that rather than being in josh or her dad's shadows, she can reach them and even surpass them
idk, i dont think this is ever really sold. again in sky 2 the plan for defeating the big bad literally depended on estelle not knowing about it or having any involvement in coming up with it, and its kevin who actually kills him. there's just never really any big moment where estelle goes all out and asserts herself in that way. emotionally maybe, but not in any kind of like, moving the story or affecting the setting way, and her empathy was always something she had over josh so its not any big shift.

Motto posted:

I agree with criticisms of Sky insofar that it's not some immaculate masterwork that the later games betrayed and is just as willing to delve into some boring standbys from time to time, but yeah, I don't get the idea that it's unceasing negative interactions. Even just within FC, the last chapter has everybody deferring to Estelle.

Honestly the way people talk about the series here made me put it down entirely a few hours into SC and ~30 into CS1, and it took seeing people play both elsewhere to remind me that oh yeah, those games were pretty fun actually.
I love the Cold Steel games and think they're amazing, and Sky is pretty alright.

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013

I commute by bike!


most of why i complain about older trails games is just because i have no idea why people get super hostile towards lots of stuff in cold steel and not because i actually think any of the games are bad fwiw. like a lot of stuff in sky does bug me but not enough that i actually dislike it, just enough that i don't get why it's held up so high so often, and i would like another female protag like estelle, i just dunno why people have a super intense hatred of rean for existing when the games have had characters like joshua since day one, none of his problems are actually that unique to him

the only things relating to sky itself i actively dislike are like, the manga, entirely because it, actively leans into joshua being cooler to the point of rewriting scenes where estelle is supposed to be the one in the right lol

The Colonel fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Oct 17, 2020

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

A lot of Trails fans engage in a bizarrely extreme amount of mutual exclusivity and whataboutism, using it as both deflection for any criticism on the games they like and a means to undermine the rest. And I think this is true for any part of the franchise, whether it's Sky, Crossbell, or Cold Steel.

IMO I prefer both Sky and Crossbell to the Cold Steel games and it's just, how I feel. It's subjective. Some of that is which games I played first, where to me I think of even a flawed game like Sky FC in the same sort of light I do with the quirky, small PC games Falcom was doing at the time and how novel it was that the Ys developer was trying their hand at a very wordy and decently length turn-based JRPG. Some of that is that I think the artstyle in the older games is more appealing to me than the feeble attempts at a 3D engine with Cold Steel. And some of that is just that I like that the Sky and Crossbell games were in and out with their stories with relative brevity, as opposed to Cold Steel being so languidly paced it necessitated four long games to tell its story. Obviously there are "extenuating circumstances" that people love to bring up with how Falcom was very clearly inexperienced with making 3D games of that length but that doesn't, make it all of a sudden Actually It's Good in that regard IMO. To me all the stuff with Rean and his harem shenanigans is white noise that I largely don't think that much about, and the idea that he by himself is somehow ground zero for where the games have to be pitted against one another is honestly quaint because my issues or preferences with him and the other protagonists is pretty low on the reasons I do or do not prefer one game to another.

They're all good JRPGs IMO. They also all have faults of various stripes. It's not a very complex conversation yet people insist on making this big howtodo every time that is so exhausting.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Nate RFB posted:

A lot of Trails fans engage in a bizarrely extreme amount of mutual exclusivity and whataboutism, using it as both deflection for any criticism on the games they like and a means to undermine the rest. And I think this is true for any part of the franchise, whether it's Sky, Crossbell, or Cold Steel.
no, i just have opinions lol

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


me: i like wendy's more than mcdonalds. mcdonalds burgers give me a headache.

quote:

A lot of hamburger fans engage in a bizarrely extreme amount of mutual exclusivity and whataboutism, using it as both deflection for any criticism on the burgers they like and a means to undermine the rest. And I think this is true for any part of the industry, whether its McDonalds, Burger King, or Wendy's.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


imagine liking burger king tho

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

I LIKE TO MAKE VAGUE THREATS TO PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET BECAUSE I AM TOUGH GUY. P.S. ASK ME ABOUT THE TIME A GIRL BEAT ME UP IN GRADE SCHOOL. HER NAME WAS SUZIE SHE DREW A BIG WEINER ON MY FOREHEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Snooze Cruise posted:

imagine liking burger king tho

appropriate, for the crossbell games

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013

I commute by bike!


the alternate universe where tio plato got a job testing the orbal spatula

babypolis
Nov 4, 2009


Endorph posted:

idk, i dont think this is ever really sold. again in sky 2 the plan for defeating the big bad literally depended on estelle not knowing about it or having any involvement in coming up with it, and its kevin who actually kills him. there's just never really any big moment where estelle goes all out and asserts herself in that way. emotionally maybe, but not in any kind of like, moving the story or affecting the setting way, and her empathy was always something she had over josh so its not any big shift.

I love the Cold Steel games and think they're amazing, and Sky is pretty alright.

her big moment in trails 2 is the aformentioned pulling rank on the whole erebonian army, but that also depends on your bracer ranking so its not a sure thing. and yeah, the plan to take down the big bad is cool but estelle gets completely shafted storywise

once again i think trails 1 does the same thing at the end but better. the part where everyone tells estelle and joshua that this is their operation and they are charge is a very cool character growth moment

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Ziggy Hero!
Ziggy! Save! Everyone!



quote:

A lot of Kingdom Hearts fans engage in a bizarrely extreme amount of mutual exclusivity and whataboutism, using it as both deflection for any criticism on the genre they like and a means to undermine the rest. And I think this is true for any part of the fandom, whether it's Yaoi, Yuri, or Vanilla

Bland
Aug 31, 2008


Winner Of The TRP I dont actually remember the contest im pretty high right now here's your venkys tag




Endorph posted:

no, i just have opinions lol

It's telling that you felt targeted by that. Also your analogy doesn't remotely work lmao.

That is something I've noticed as well though. People saying "here's what I didn't like about Cold Steel/Crossbell/whatever" and being responded to with "Actually, that bad thing is in Sky as well, you fool!". Like, OK? I still didn't like it.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Bland posted:

It's telling that you felt targeted by that.
yeah its telling, that im cool. just straight up the coolest person in this thread.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


i assure you ive looked high and low and there is regrettably no yuri in the kh fandom

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Ziggy Hero!
Ziggy! Save! Everyone!



Bland posted:

It's telling that you felt targeted by that.

Endorph was literally having a conversation about that topic that Nate RFB was responding to! Of course Endorph would reply to it as if it was a reply to the ongoing conversation. That's how talking works.

Endorph posted:

i assure you ive looked high and low and there is regrettably no yuri in the kh fandom

It's me Endorph. Namine is the gay Kairi and Xion is trans Sora and they're dating. I have many stories in the pipeline for this.

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The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013

I commute by bike!


https://files.catbox.moe/vgrg50.mp4

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