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I think you guys are overrating Ultima's reputation a bit. For us who were raised in the 80s or 90s playing a ton of RPGs, Ultima/Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy were the foundation with stuff like Romancing Saga and Breath of Fire on the relative periphery. Now it's completely different--do you think that even close to half of game reviewers have ever played a Dragon Quest game outside of the new DS stuff, let alone a BoF or SaGa game? In the same way, a lot of people who review FPS games might not know about Wolfenstein 3D. I think you're overrating the historical video game knowledge needed to be a game reviewer.
bearic fucked around with this message at 05:53 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 05:50
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Bongo Bill posted:If you purport to be an authority on video games, you should at least know the drat name. Beyond indignant gamer rage, can you explain why? If you primarily cover Starcraft 2 tournaments, why do you need to know about Ultima? If you're news site talks to people who play modern FPS games? What if you're gaming interest lies entirely in PC wargaming? Why would any of those people need to know or care about Ultima? And if you agree they shouldn't, which then implies that Larian Studios shouldn't talk to anyone who doesn't know what Ultima is, why should Larian Studios limit their news coverage when people are willing to talk to them about their game?
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May 18, 2012 05:51
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Larian Studios should talk to anyone who'll listen, but I'm very curious how anybody could deem someone competent to cover RPGs who has never heard the name "Ultima" before.
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May 18, 2012 05:56
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nessin posted:Beyond indignant gamer rage, can you explain why? If you primarily cover Starcraft 2 tournaments, why do you need to know about Ultima? If you're news site talks to people who play modern FPS games? What if you're gaming interest lies entirely in PC wargaming? Why would any of those people need to know or care about Ultima? How would you feel about someone who covers FPSs who has never heard of DOOM? edit: I see your point that a person who covers a different genre might not need to know about Ultima. But if that journalist covers RPG, he better drat well know. theblackw0lf fucked around with this message at 06:02 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 05:59
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Bongo Bill posted:Larian Studios should talk to anyone who'll listen, but I'm very curious how anybody could deem someone competent to cover RPGs who has never heard the name "Ultima" before. I already said it once, but I'll say it again, this is not fantasy land, it's reality. People who write articles (either independently or as part of a organization) have focus areas, but sometimes they branch out of that focus area without having time to research the background (which they don't usually need anyways). Or it could be random chance, a guy writing FPS articles his entire career goes to PAX and runs across the Larian booth during downtime and for some reason it peaks his interest even though he's never played RPGs. Also can I assume you agree that every games journalist needs to know about Ultima, or did you just decline to answer? Edit: theblackw0lf posted:How would you feel about someone who covers FPSs who has never heard of DOOM? So you agree that Larian Studios shouldn't talk to anyone who doesn't know about Ultima and that not every gaming journalist needs to be aware of its history? Good, I'm glad were in agreement. Except about the first part, I think Larian should talk to whoever will listen.
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May 18, 2012 06:00
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theblackw0lf posted:How would you feel about someone who covers FPSs who has never heard of DOOM? 1) What exactly would that change in the coverage? 2) I would be much more upset if they had never heard of Call of Duty because that's far more relevant to the modern industry.
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May 18, 2012 06:01
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nessin posted:That's a poor analogy, because you're comparing an entire industry to a genre of another industry. Not to mention Tolkien has had a mass market revitalization due to the movies. Yeah, I'd expect a journalist who is focused or interested in RPGs to know about Ultima, and ideally any journalist that would be discussing Project E would have that background. However, this is the real world and the gaming industry goes beyond just RPGs. That's dumb. If someone is a gaming journalist you would think they would be familiar with it's most important works. Imagine if a film critic had never heard of Stanley Kubrick vegaji posted:I think you guys are overrating Ultima's reputation a bit. For us who were raised in the 80s or 90s playing a ton of RPGs, Ultima/Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy were the foundation with stuff like Romancing Saga and Breath of Fire on the relative periphery. Now it's completely different--do you think that even close to half of game reviewers have ever played a Dragon Quest game outside of the new DS stuff, let alone a BoF or SaGa game? In the same way, a lot of people who review FPS games might not know about Wolfenstein 3D. I think you're overrating the historical video game knowledge needed to be a game reviewer. What the hell kind of lovely standard is this? In any other field, people writing on a subject are expected to know that subject with a reasonable amount of depth. No wonder gaming journalism is a joke. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 06:15 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 06:10
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TurnipFritter posted:1) What exactly would that change in the coverage? You're missing the point by a wide margin. It has to do with the fact that if you cover a genre/medium, you should know the history. Ultima is a big part of that history. It's really just another reason why game journalism is a loving joke.
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May 18, 2012 06:10
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nessin posted:Also can I assume you agree that every games journalist needs to know about Ultima, or did you just decline to answer? If you're covering RPGs, you should know about RPGs. That's all I said.
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May 18, 2012 06:13
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Azraden posted:You're missing the point by a wide margin. It has to do with the fact that if you cover a genre/medium, you should know the history. But why? Amethyst posted:What the hell kind of lovely standard is this? In any other field, people writing on a subject are expected to know that subject with a reasonable amount of depth. No wonder gaming journalism is a joke. Video games are a relatively new, rapidly changing medium. It absolutely occupies a different sphere from film and literature and music.
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May 18, 2012 06:15
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TurnipFritter posted:But why? What a completely arbitrary and meaningless thing to say. "I'm content to swallow sub-standard coverage from people who don't know what they are talking about. Basically, if journalists read me PR releases, I'm good." Do you think cinema is a static medium that suffers from having a highly knowledgeable body of criticism?
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May 18, 2012 06:18
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Bongo Bill posted:If you're covering RPGs, you should know about RPGs. That's all I said. Yeah, but that isn't an answer to anything. If you should know about Ultima to cover RPGs, then why shouldn't a company talk to someone who doesn't know about Ultima but does cover an RPG? Or, conversely, if everyone covering RPGs should know about Ultima then why don't they? The only answer to that has been "game journalism has gone to hell", but that is an excuse because knowledge of indirect historial events is not a requirement to detail, discuss, or provide general coverage of a product in any industry.
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May 18, 2012 06:20
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Amethyst posted:That's dumb. If someone is a gaming journalist you would think they would be familiar with it's most important works. If I am a football columnist, who writes on just football, how much do I need to know about professional snowboarders?
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May 18, 2012 06:23
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nessin posted:Yeah, but that isn't an answer to anything. If you should know about Ultima to cover RPGs, then why shouldn't a company talk to someone who doesn't know about Ultima but does cover an RPG? Or, conversely, if everyone covering RPGs should know about Ultima then why don't they? The only answer to that has been "game journalism has gone to hell", but that is an excuse because knowledge of indirect historial events is not a requirement to detail, discuss, or provide general coverage of a product in any industry. This isn't a matter of a company choosing to talk to an individual or not. It's about a bunch of lazy publications who are content to publish any old garbage, and an audience that isn't nearly critical enough to call them on it. Having writers that don't know what they are talking about is one problem of many, but it's a big one. Eurogamer is the only mainstream commercial gaming publication I can think of that is worth anything whatsoever.
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May 18, 2012 06:23
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Amethyst posted:Do you think cinema is a static medium that suffers from having a highly knowledgeable body of criticism? What I'm saying is I don't expect everyone who talks about movies to have sat through Birth of a Nation or Battleship Potemkin.
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May 18, 2012 06:24
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Defiance Industries posted:If I am a football columnist, who writes on just football, how much do I need to know about professional snowboarders? We are literally talking about a journalist who interviewed an RPG developer you dunce.
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May 18, 2012 06:24
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TurnipFritter posted:What I'm saying is I don't expect everyone who talks about movies to have sat through Birth of a Nation or Battleship Potemkin. Anyone who gets paid to write about movies sure as poo poo better know about those, otherwise they will be writing garbage.
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May 18, 2012 06:24
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Amethyst posted:Anyone who gets paid to write about movies sure as poo poo better know about those, otherwise they will be writing garbage. And why is that? Do they have to reference those two films in every piece of writing they do? Enlighten me.
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May 18, 2012 06:27
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TurnipFritter posted:And why is that? Do they have to reference those two films in every piece of writing they do? The Birth of a Nation and Battleship Potempkin. The two films that pioneered modern narrative and editing techniques, respectively. Meh, unimportant. Just hire bobby he likes those matrix flicks.
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May 18, 2012 06:28
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Defiance Industries posted:If I am a football columnist, who writes on just football, how much do I need to know about professional snowboarders? Nothing, but if you don't know who the fuckin' Buffalo Bills are you're gonna be in some deep poo poo.
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May 18, 2012 06:29
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Quick- without comparing video games to another form of media, explain how playing ultima makes any shred of difference to a review of skyrim.
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May 18, 2012 06:29
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MARTIN SCORSESSE: As a child, I remember going to see films with my grandmother. I remember when I first saw the battleship potempkin, and I lost myself, I was there, in the moment, with- JOHNNY GAME JOURNALIST: Wait, wait - what movie? I've not seen that one was it at canne this year?
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May 18, 2012 06:30
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Amethyst posted:This isn't a matter of a company choosing to talk to an individual or not. It's about a bunch of lazy publications who are content to publish any old garbage, and an audience that isn't nearly critical enough to call them on it. Having writers that don't know what they are talking about is one problem of many, but it's a big one. And that has what to do with knowing about Ultima? So if a games journalist covers an RPG and knows about Ultima their article will suddenly be better? Sweet, what else can we apply that type of logic to? What if the article was on Final Fantasy? If they know the history of Final Fantasy it will be crap, but if they know the history of the entire RPG gaming industry, including Ultima, they'll instantly make a better article? Keep your argument straight, we're not talking about the state of the gaming journalism at large, we're talking about how ridiculous it is to assume that historical knowledge of Ultima is connected to a journalists ability to write a quality article about an RPG.
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May 18, 2012 06:31
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Amethyst posted:The Birth of a Nation and Battleship Potempkin. The two films that pioneered modern narrative and editing techniques, respectively. No one said they were unimportant. Try again. Also, read this post: nessin posted:And that has what to do with knowing about Ultima? So if a games journalist covers an RPG and knows about Ultima they're article will suddenly be better? Sweet, what else can we apply that type of logic to?
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May 18, 2012 06:31
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nessin posted:Yeah, but that isn't an answer to anything. If you should know about Ultima to cover RPGs, then why shouldn't a company talk to someone who doesn't know about Ultima but does cover an RPG? The company being covered doesn't get to choose which reporters the news outlets send to hear about their announcements. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. Are you asking why I'm not saying that Larian Studios should've ejected the journalists in the crowd who had never heard of Ultima before? (It's because that would be an idiotic thing for me to say.) nessin posted:Or, conversely, if everyone covering RPGs should know about Ultima then why don't they? The only answer to that has been "game journalism has gone to hell", but that is an excuse because knowledge of indirect historial events is not a requirement to detail, discuss, or provide general coverage of a product in any industry. I'm not sure how it happens that a person can be paid to write about RPGs without knowing enough about RPGs to have heard about one of the most successful and influential RPGs that ever existed. It's hardly unreasonable that specialist writers should be knowledgeable in the specialization about which they're writing; never having even heard of one of the most influential and successful RPGs is compelling evidence that a person doesn't know much about RPGs, which means that somebody hosed up in asking such a person to write about RPGs. It does reflect poorly on the entire profession.
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May 18, 2012 06:32
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pw pw pw posted:Quick- without comparing video games to another form of media, explain how playing ultima makes any shred of difference to a review of skyrim. Breadth and depth of experience. If you're a professional RPG video game reviewer and you've only ever played FF13 and JRPGs released after 2009, then your review of Kingdom Hearts 69/420 Mickey Gets Graphically Anally Penetrated On Screen is going to be loving glowing because you don't know what a good video game is like. The relevance of your opinion is diluted and skewed because you have very limited experience in a field. If you are unfamiliar with your medium's history, then you're basically going off of blockbuster releases with no relevant knowledge of older storytelling techniques or groundbreaking developments in delivery; I know about the Ultima series, but only upon reading about it further tonight did I learn that it was the progenitor of the Player Morality-Driven RPG. No Ultima --> no Mass Effect. I don't give a rat's rear end how volatile you think your industry is, you better fuckin' know your poo poo. Fur20 fucked around with this message at 06:39 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 06:32
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pw pw pw posted:Quick- without comparing video games to another form of media, explain how playing ultima makes any shred of difference to a review of skyrim. It puts the game in a historical context. Ultima was an open world rpg. The VERY FIRST open world rpg. Many of the structural elements in skyrim were directly influenced by Ultima. With knowledge of this, and rest of the 30 year historical lineage of RPGs that culminated in the release of Skyrim, you can evaluate what Skyrim contributes to the genre, how well it evolves existing concepts, how it could change the rpg landscape etc. Or, you can just talk about the cool kills and graphics I guess. The fact that you are a poster on a video game forum and need this poo poo explained to you demonstrates why people look down on gamers. This kind of discussion would never happen in a film, general art, or even a sports discussion board.
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May 18, 2012 06:35
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Bongo Bill posted:I'm not sure how it happens that a person can be paid to write about RPGs without knowing enough about RPGs to have heard about one of the most successful and influential RPGs that ever existed. It's hardly unreasonable that specialist writers should be knowledgeable in the specialization about which they're writing; never having even heard of one of the most influential and successful RPGs is compelling evidence that a person doesn't know much about RPGs, which means that somebody hosed up in asking such a person to write about RPGs. It does reflect poorly on the entire profession. All other factors that have been covered aside, the Ultima series is apparently so successful that they had to stop making major releases in 1999 or else they'd destroy the market. I guess all the series which have progressed (Fallout, D&D, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, need I go on) are just filling in the void Ultima left for them. Sounds like a ridiculous statement to make because Ultima was important to RPGs and was successful for it's time, but then again we're having a discussion about how someone needs to know about a video game that hasn't been "popular" in over a decade in order to write about a game that hasn't even been released yet.
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May 18, 2012 06:36
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The White Dragon posted:Breadth and depth of experience. If you're a professional RPG video game reviewer and you've only ever played FF13 and JRPGs released after 2009, then your review of Kingdom Hearts 69/420 Mickey Gets Graphically Anally Penetrated On Screen is going to be loving glowing because you don't know what a good video game is like. I don't agree with that though. I had never played a beat-em-up before battletoads, but I could still recognize bullshit when I saw it.
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May 18, 2012 06:36
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nessin posted:And that has what to do with knowing about Ultima? So if a games journalist covers an RPG and knows about Ultima their article will suddenly be better? Sweet, what else can we apply that type of logic to? Heh, knowlege of a subject could lead to better writing on a subject? What planet are we on, DUMB ILLOGIC WORLD?! You are a simpleton.
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May 18, 2012 06:37
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Amethyst posted:Heh, knowlege of a subject could lead to better writing on a subject? What planet are we on, DUMB ILLOGIC WORLD?! Jesus christ, step away from your keyboard and breathe. Ed: Amethyst posted:Insults on a web forum? Well I never.  Yes, a perfect excuse to act like a petulant child.Amethyst posted:The fact that you are a poster on a video game forum and need this poo poo explained to you demonstrates why people look down on gamers. Unsmart fucked around with this message at 06:47 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 06:41
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Insults on a web forum? Well I never. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 18, 2012 06:42
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pw pw pw posted:I don't agree with that though. I had never played a beat-em-up before battletoads, but I could still recognize bullshit when I saw it. Your opinion is perfectly valid, however If you wrote an article about battle toads and why it's bullshit, it wouldn't be as good as one from a guy who has a great wealth of knowledge about the genre and it's history.
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May 18, 2012 06:44
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nessin posted:All other factors that have been covered aside, the Ultima series is apparently so successful that they had to stop making major releases in 1999 or else they'd destroy the market. I guess all the series which have progressed (Fallout, D&D, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, need I go on) are just filling in the void Ultima left for them. Ten years isn't that long. There's nothing wrong with a consumer or fan not remembering a game from that long ago, but if your job requires you to know about RPGs, then not knowing what Ultima is is an indication that you're bad at your job. I agree that if your job is to take a game publisher's press release and rewrite it, then you don't need to know about Ultima, but is that really what we want game journalism to be?
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May 18, 2012 06:44
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pw pw pw posted:I don't agree with that though. I had never played a beat-em-up before battletoads, but I could still recognize bullshit when I saw it. One might say that Battletoads is the quintessential bullshit beat-em-up, though, after arcade games that were specifically designed to be quartermunchers with unavoidable deaths. Incidentally, Battletoads (or any game with Battletoads in the title) is an incredibly recognizable core title under the "bullshit" category even from memetics alone, you don't even have to know what system it was for if you're a younger reviewer to know that it exists and what it's notorious for. Let's say you read a review about a game with quote "bullshit" difficulty and it was no harder than Super Mario World for the SNES. Let's say this is because the hardest game a reviewer has ever played or even just generally known was SMW. Are you still confident in his/her competence to deliver you accurate reviews? I certainly wouldn't be.
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May 18, 2012 06:45
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Megaflare posted:Jesus christ, step away from your keyboard and breathe. Shut up you meta loving bore Bongo Bill posted:Ten years isn't that long. There's nothing wrong with a consumer or fan not remembering a game from that long ago, but if your job requires you to know about RPGs, then not knowing what Ultima is is an indication that you're bad at your job. It seems to me that many gamers don't just accept consumer recommendation/PR tracts in place of actual journalism - they expect it.
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May 18, 2012 06:49
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nessin posted:All other factors that have been covered aside, the Ultima series is apparently so successful that they had to stop making major releases in 1999 or else they'd destroy the market. I guess all the series which have progressed (Fallout, D&D, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, need I go on) are just filling in the void Ultima left for them. There's been a lot of dumb poo poo said in this argument, but this might be the dumbest. "Heh. It hasn't had a sequel in a while and isn't completely oversaturating the market with needless sequels? Clearly wasn't THAT important  "E: Basically, if you're a journalist, you should know what your talking about. To know what you're talking about, you should do research and know the history of your subject. Game journalism doesn't require this for some reason, which puts it on the same level as Fox News. VVVVV the rest of your quote was just as dumb Azraden fucked around with this message at 06:56 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 06:51
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Bongo Bill posted:Ten years isn't that long. There's nothing wrong with a consumer or fan not remembering a game from that long ago, but if your job requires you to know about RPGs, then not knowing what Ultima is is an indication that you're bad at your job. Do you even realize what you've said here? You're already breaking out of the "Ultima" mold and using it as an example instead of hard line in the sand. How much further do we have to argue over this before you take another step back? I actually agree with you that you should know something about RPGs, but it doesn't have to be the classics. and it certainly doesn't have to be Ultima. Not knowing about any RPG in existence is proof you shouldn't be doing the job, not knowing about Ultima is just a small aberation. In addition if a person is going to describe an RPG, in their own words formed from their own opinion, they absolutely can't do it without knowing the history of RPGs? How does knowing anything about Ultima prepare someone for being able to talk about the graphic or audio fidelity of a game? Even how they interact with the game, and the features presented in said game? Has the english language degenerated so much that you have to use analogies to games so old they're only conceptually related to the game you're talking about it to get a point across? Azraden posted:There's been a lot of dumb poo poo said in this argument, but this might be the dumbest. "Heh. It hasn't had a sequel in a while and isn't completely oversaturating the market with needless sequels? Clearly wasn't THAT important Read the rest of the post, I clearly pointed out it was a stupid comment and Ultima was successful/important in the exact same post you quoted but conveniently left out of your quote. nessin fucked around with this message at 06:56 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 06:52
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nessin posted:Do you even realize what you've said here? You're already breaking out of the "Ultima" mold and using it as an example instead of hard line in the sand. How much further do we have to argue over this before you take another step back? I actually agree with you that you should know something about RPGs, but it doesn't have to be the classics. and it certainly doesn't have to be Ultima. Not knowing about any RPG in existence is proof you shouldn't be doing the job, not knowing about Ultima is just a small aberation. An opinion without any knowledge behind it is, by definition, a stupid opinion, and an opinion not worth hearing.
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May 18, 2012 06:56
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If only there were thousands of other rpg's you might be well-equipped to compare a new title to. It sure sucks for rpg fans that the genre died with ultima 13 years ago.
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May 18, 2012 07:07
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