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Endorph posted:literally my only complaint with duvalie is that weird line in cs3 where she kind of has a crush on rean and its never acknowledged again, and the random bit towa has about angelica and george is way weirder than that so its forgivable Dang, Crow has a line about that in CS1 and I was really hoping it was just never going to come up again. Which I guess it sounds like it doesn't outside of one other time, but it's still really strange it happens twice.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 08:56 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 08:59 |
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Endorph posted:literally my only complaint with duvalie is that weird line in cs3 where she kind of has a crush on rean and its never acknowledged again, and the random bit towa has about angelica and george is way weirder than that so its forgivable I kind of took it as them poking fun at her for being into Rean, when it's less of a physical attraction thing and more of a respect/acknowledgement thing. I know absolutely nothing of 4 and have tried to stay as spoiler free as possible so I can theory craft with my friends, but it always seemed to me that Duvalie was kind of isolated from the bad side of Ouroboros. She idolized the Steel Maiden who was a savior, a teacher, and a saint to her, and also wanted to be a strong heroic figure, but was sort of slowly realizing that maybe they were the baddies and Rean was sort of the thing she wanted to be. Her blind faith in the Steel Maiden helped her to justify the bad things they were doing, because obviously if the Steel Maiden is doing them then they are good and right, because the Steel Maiden is perfect and great. She sees these same qualities in Rean, a person she is pitted against time and time again, and doesn't really know what to do with those feelings, especially as it becomes more and more apparent she is the bad guy. Or maybe it's just anime being anime making every girl be into the main character, I don't know. The Steel Maiden always seemed like a surrogate mother to Duvalie, and I was never sure how I felt about her being so into her, but like, that's not even close to the weirdness with Elise, so it's not really something I give much thought. edit: I forgot about Laura, I think she makes a more interesting pair to Duvalie Also it's like 4 in the morning I hope that was coherent CubeTheory fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Oct 17, 2020 |
# ? Oct 17, 2020 08:56 |
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the saddest character in all of trails is the one lady in mainz who sees noel seeker and says "wow you're hot. Unfortunately, after seeing that you are a woman, my interest in you has vanished."
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:04 |
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CubeTheory posted:I kind of took it as them poking fun at her for being into Rean, when it's less of a physical attraction thing and more of a respect/acknowledgement thing. I know absolutely nothing of 4 and have tried to stay as spoiler free as possible so I can theory craft with my friends, but it always seemed to me that Duvalie was kind of isolated from the bad side of Ouroboros. She idolized the Steel Maiden who was a savior, a teacher, and a saint to her, and also wanted to be a strong heroic figure, but was sort of slowly realizing that maybe they were the baddies and Rean was sort of the thing she wanted to be. Her blind faith in the Steel Maiden helped her to justify the bad things they were doing, because obviously if the Steel Maiden is doing them then they are good and right, because the Steel Maiden is perfect and great. She sees these same qualities in Rean, a person she is pitted against time and time again, and doesn't really know what to do with those feelings, especially as it becomes more and more apparent she is the bad guy. The Colonel posted:the saddest character in all of trails is the one lady in mainz who sees noel seeker and says "wow you're hot. Unfortunately, after seeing that you are a woman, my interest in you has vanished."
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:04 |
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Endorph posted:I definitely got the read Duvalie had a crush on Arianrhod. I mean, Duvalie's only like 22ish in CS2, it's not exactly that weird for her to have a crush on a mentor figure she met when she was like 14-15. If my read of the timeline is right anyway. Honestly, it's kind of late and I might be misremembering, and I'm quite frankly not going to risk spoilers to look it up, but I thought when they showed sepia tone flash back Duvalie in 3 when she met her she was a lot younger, 6 or 7, but I absolutely do not remember for sure. If she was 14/15 the crush thing makes a lot more sense, if she was a literal child it's a little weird but I'm still not really that concerned about it. I just want Duvalie to be happy, and I don't think that's gonna happen with Arianrhod!
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:08 |
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also idk i like estelle on her own but my liking of her has been permanently tempered by how sky just kinda treats her weirdly and i have never really cared about joshua in any form so i don't really care for 90% of her character being tied to him and i think a lot of the best parts of sky are the parts where, they aren't, together like on a basic level she's a more interesting character than lloyd or rean but in execution i think kevin is like. kind of. the only trails protag. who's ever 100% worked within the context of his story without any particularly annoying decisions around writing him
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:09 |
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CubeTheory posted:Honestly, it's kind of late and I might be misremembering, and I'm quite frankly not going to risk spoilers to look it up, but I thought when they showed sepia tone flash back Duvalie in 3 when she met her she was a lot younger, 6 or 7, but I absolutely do not remember for sure. If she was 14/15 the crush thing makes a lot more sense, if she was a literal child it's a little weird but I'm still not really that concerned about it. I just want Duvalie to be happy, and I don't think that's gonna happen with Arianrhod! Totally agreed on the second point, mind, and I def. don't think Arianrhod would reciprocate for a whole host of reasons, I just think Duvalie having a romantic motivation is kind of interesting for her character.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:13 |
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The Colonel posted:also idk i like estelle on her own but my liking of her has been permanently tempered by how sky just kinda treats her weirdly and i have never really cared about joshua in any form so i don't really care for 90% of her character being tied to him and i think a lot of the best parts of sky are the parts where, they aren't, together
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:13 |
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Starting SC has definitely increased my enjoyment of Estelle, I was expecting the lack of Josh to make an impact but like more's done with Estelle in the first chapter of SC then the entirety of the first game. It's been fun. Though, i'm a good ways into CS2 as well and i'm still not really understanding all the complaints about Rean i've seen. Like, yeah he's kinda lame and there's some writing around him that's pretty obnoxious but he's largely fine I feel? Maybe something will click later but after probably spending over 100 hours with him he's alright. Not as fun as Estelle though.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:19 |
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Starting SC has definitely increased my enjoyment of Estelle, I was expecting the lack of Josh to make an impact but like more's done with Estelle in the first chapter of SC then the entirety of the first game. It's been fun.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:22 |
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Rean really has two issues: -he is kinda bland personality wise (and this gets worse in CS3 as XSEED punched up his script more) -almost every female character fawns after him and it's completely unearned in most cases Edit: /\ though I agree with Endorph. It's pretty obvious which character she's talking about. That particular character is just strong out of the gate.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:23 |
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Endorph posted:CS3 ramps up the harem stuff with Rean a bit but otoh the character whos the most forward about her crush on him is also my favorite of the new characters, so. I kinda figured it'd be something like that, just because i've seen a bunch of complaints about harem stuff but while I know there's a relationship system in the first two games the writing only really seems to push Alisa and to a lesser extent Towa. There's some stuff in a couple bonding events I suppose, and they always feel really out of place when they happen but most bonding events feel strangely disconnected from like the actual story. E: Oh and Alfin's crush which is always pretty bad when it comes up. SyntheticPolygon fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Oct 17, 2020 |
# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:29 |
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It's kind of funny. I'd argue 3 actually does the potential romance bonding events better even if they had to make Alisa X Rean semi-canon. The console generation shift has them basically soft reset that part and it almost works out better for it.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:33 |
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Joshua sucks so much goddamn
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 09:57 |
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Eder might be the best party member in all of western CRPGs. Every bit and joke with him hits so perfectly in Pillars 2. Aloth is like a good 25% fail rate on jokes landing for me and most of the new cast is still finding their legs at this part of the plot but Eder just always puts a smile on my face. The bit at the very beginning where you flip off the pirate attacking you and the next text box is just "Eder smiles like he's seen an old friend". Yeah I missed you too.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 11:16 |
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Eder might be the best party member in all of western CRPGs. Eder's great because his entire narrative role is to be your buddy. He's got a backstory and motivations and all that, but he's really just there to be your himbo pal who is up for anything.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 11:30 |
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Crowetron posted:Eder's great because his entire narrative role is to be your buddy. He's got a backstory and motivations and all that, but he's really just there to be your himbo pal who is up for anything. And tbf his story stuff is done really well. This sweet earnest man struggling with this faith that was so important to him and his family and what all this means in the face of his god starting a war and now being a world striding colossus destroying half a country. You feel for the guy. I am 100% defending him from Xoti's flirtations though. That is...that lady has Problems. Gonna try and romance Kana's Sister because the idea of just showing up to their family home one holiday as a surprise tickles me. EDIT: Boy this game is LOUSY with Critical Role VA's isn't it? I know the Cast of that first campaign is dlc but like, you can't go 10 feet without hearing an NPC voiced by Marisha or Sam.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 11:34 |
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:And tbf his story stuff is done really well. This sweet earnest man struggling with this faith that was so important to him and his family and what all this means in the face of his god starting a war and now being a world striding colossus destroying half a country. You feel for the guy. I don't actually know how the Maia romance shakes out because the one time I tried it was the run where I sided with the New Blood pirates and she did not like that very much. Neither did Pallegina, actually. But you know who absolutely had my back while I became the Pirate Queen of the Deadfire? My dude, Eder.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 11:47 |
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Eder might be the best party member in all of western CRPGs. It's not even really close. Eder's just so drat lovable.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:05 |
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Eder was cool. As I said when I played POE earlier this year, he reminded me of Alistair as he's the clear bosom buddy character who is also far less morally ambiguous than all the other party members. I kept him devoted to the Eothosian faith when I played POE1. I also romanced Maia. I liked it a lot.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:16 |
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Maia would go for the bat for a Shark-man Henry Kissinger. Her realpolitik actions are very concerning.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:28 |
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Estelle and Joshua were the last Trails protagonists where they felt comfortable giving them actual faults instead of the next two being functionally perfect player ciphers. Considering people here get mad Estelle dares to have a fault I guess I understand the shift but it makes me sad
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:32 |
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Eder & Alistair are great buds. More games should have companions like them. But gay, so I can romance them.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:33 |
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CharlestheHammer posted:Estelle and Joshua were the last Trails protagonists where they felt comfortable giving them actual faults instead of the next two being functionally perfect player ciphers. I think what people don't like is that Joshua seems to be written as if the writer is unaware of his faults and thinks that being a low-key rear end in a top hat to Estelle is actually supposed to be endearing to the audience. Like, he's supposed to be a perfect (broody) boyfriend who everyone instinctively loves, but they paper over his faults without addressing them.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:40 |
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CharlestheHammer posted:Estelle and Joshua were the last Trails protagonists where they felt comfortable giving them actual faults instead of the next two being functionally perfect player ciphers. Some banter is fine, but Joshua acts like she'll get her head stuck in a plastic bag if he leaves her alone for five minutes, mocks her for not knowing things she'd have little reason not to know, etc. And again, this'd also be fine if you were meant to think Josh is an rear end in a top hat, but nobody ever calls him on it and this arc is resolved with Josh saving Estelle from the heart-attack inducing terror of Gilbert, a comedy relief butler with a submachine gun.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:42 |
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Clarste posted:I think what people don't like is that Joshua seems to be written as if the writer is unaware of his faults and thinks that being a low-key rear end in a top hat to Estelle is actually supposed to be endearing to the audience. Like, he's supposed to be a perfect (broody) boyfriend who everyone instinctively loves, but they paper over his faults without addressing them. I mean the literal opening is overtly blunt against that and she tells him off when they meet again but I guess people wanted them to sever completly? I dunno people here are really weirs about Joshua in general
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:43 |
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean the literal opening is overtly blunt against that and she tells him off when they meet again but I guess people wanted them to sever completly? And iunno. Sky 2 is meant to be Estelle coming into her own but it just never feels like she does at all. Schera or Agate lead her around for most of the first half of the game and she has to get bailed out by Josh, and then the rest of the game is mostly a group effort. There's moments where Estelle really takes charge sure but they're just that, moments. Heck, the entire reason the final boss is defeated literally depended on her having no knowledge of the plan for defeating him.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:45 |
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Endorph posted:My problem with Estelle isn't that she's impulsive and dense. Those are good things. My issue is that the entire rest of the cast points this out incessantly and vastly exaggerates how badly she has those traits, which makes them come across as assholes. Especially Josh, who's ostensibly supposed to be her love interest. That’s just trails writing, they love hammering a point home. I vastly prefer that to hammering the point that wow loyd/Rean, you sure are cool and attractive. I wish I could kiss you
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:46 |
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I think the Rean thing is totally fine tbh. Like I get why women would be into Rean. Women in real life, are into Rean. They overdo it in parts (Claire is a big example) but at least it's an angle I can understand.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:47 |
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CharlestheHammer posted:Estelle and Joshua were the last Trails protagonists where they felt comfortable giving them actual faults instead of the next two being functionally perfect player ciphers. I dunno man, I would personally say Rean’s self-loathing is a fault that has repercussions and is actively toxic to his family, at least in CS1. Its not like, Estelle being kinda airheaded and spacey where those are definitely personality traits, but as much cool poo poo Rean has going for him (sick sword moves, kaioken, girls fawning over him) it’s hard to read someone whose biggest enemy is themselves as a power fantasy, not to deny that he has those traits entirely.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:47 |
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Josh is bad because Estelle's a fun character but once you're out of chapter 1 in FC her only real arc is her relationship with him, and hoo boy is it real lame.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:50 |
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Endorph posted:I think the Rean thing is totally fine tbh. Like I get why women would be into Rean. Women in real life, are into Rean. They overdo it in parts (Claire is a big example) but at least it's an angle I can understand. To be honest after playing Zero I dislike Rean less now. I still think he’s boring but I also just think that the series is just turning towards blander protagonists. Especially with the introduction of harem mechanics. You can just project yourself into him. Especially when his only real fault is he doesn’t realize how cool he is. It’s just a series at this point where I am going to find more enjoyment out of the side characters I guess. Like Juna in 3 is interesting if a bit underused
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:55 |
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What non blood-related siblings are there who aren't set up to get in each other's pants?
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 12:56 |
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Honestly iunno if Rean is really a self-insert. I mean there's elements of that sure but Cold Steel was kind of designed to bring in more female fans, and largely succeeded at that. If anything the harem stuff might be a kind of self-conscious 'see, women, like this game, rean is cute' thing.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 13:00 |
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I mean, I think Rean is cute. Rean is cute.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 13:03 |
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Inspector Gesicht posted:What non blood-related siblings are there who aren't set up to get in each other's pants? The royal family, weirdly enough
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 13:24 |
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I would go so far as to call him, a 'snack'.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 13:26 |
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Every Trails protagonists have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to writing and I don't think any of them are like, actually bad. I like Lloyd a lot because I got really into the overall story in Crossbell and he becomes a big driving force in it, where the worse things get the more determined he becomes to do something about and not just let stuff passively wash over him. You might argue that he's less of a character in a certain sense than a stand in for the SSS in general and you might be right, but that works for me because the "relationship of the SSS to everyone else" is a strong heart for Crossbell to focus on. Estelle has a lot of individual fun traits and bits, being very headstrong, eventually confident, and proactive. However the Sky games don't do the best of job of writing around her and characters like Joshua drag her down a lot. I think she is able to muscle through most of this in FC and still come out being a fun person to have a primary perspective on the events, and by SC due to circumstances she's given a better supporting cast so it strikes a better balance. Excluding Kevin who is hard to really bring into this conversation, Rean I think does the best job of being a protag with actual flaws and a feeling of something he has to overcome internally. Estelle/Lloyd obviously have watershed moments of introspection but Rean's entire character is predicated on his debilitating lack of self-esteem and that's interesting. I think like Estelle he's let down by some of his supporting cast, but less so in that people are weird/lovely to him like Estelle and more that due to Cold Steel's huge cast and overall slow pacing it winds up feeling stretched thin and watered down. When combined with his romantic relationships being spread so far and wide, it doesn't feel like there's any one or even several anchors that would actually be needed to complement Rean's aforementioned negativity that (presumably) he will overcome.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 13:45 |
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Endorph posted:Honestly iunno if Rean is really a self-insert. I mean there's elements of that sure but Cold Steel was kind of designed to bring in more female fans, and largely succeeded at that. If anything the harem stuff might be a kind of self-conscious 'see, women, like this game, rean is cute' thing. The harem stuff looks like it started with Azure, CS just expanded it since they expanded the cast so much. So like I said I don’t hate Rean as much as most of the things dragging trails down started with Zero. Rean sadly is more a victim of the poor direction than anything else
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 13:49 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 08:59 |
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Honestly I don't remember Joshua being particularly mean to Estelle at all.
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# ? Oct 17, 2020 15:22 |