Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Ria
Sep 21, 2003

yeah, i have no idea either

Dominion posted:

I have a question about back blocking vs tripping. Take the following situation:

Red Jammer skates directly into the back of Blue Blocker. Blue Blocker stumbles and falls, causing Red Jammer to then trip and fall over her.

Is that a backblock on Red or a tripping on Blue? Because I have seen it called both ways. I would think it would be backblock on Red, since she was the one who initiated the whole situation, but maybe I am wrong.

The legality of a block resides with the initiator of that block. The red jammer would get a major back block due to it being of a "major" intensity (the phraseology escapes me at the moment, both in losing relative position within the pack and for making the skater fall).

The only way blue blocker* would get a penalty is if she didn't "fall small" or flailed around, or intentionally tripped the red jammer. If the red jammer just stumbled over her because she knocked the blocker down, then the blocker wouldn't be assessed anything.

Edit: *heh, blueblockers. Like the sunglasses.

Ria fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Feb 18, 2011

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

Ria posted:

The legality of a block resides with the initiator of that block. The red jammer would get a major back block due to it being of a "major" intensity (the phraseology escapes me at the moment, both in losing relative position within the pack and for making the skater fall).

The only way blue blocker* would get a penalty is if she didn't "fall small" or flailed around, or intentionally tripped the red jammer. If the red jammer just stumbled over her because she knocked the blocker down, then the blocker wouldn't be assessed anything.

Edit: *heh, blueblockers. Like the sunglasses.

Does the situation change if, say, the Red jammer is significantly better than the blue blocker, such that Blue attempts to booty block Red, but bounces/slides off, falls, and Red trips over her? Assume the block itself was legal but ineffective.

Is it basically the ref's call on whether Blue was falling as safely as she could?

Ria
Sep 21, 2003

yeah, i have no idea either

Dominion posted:

Does the situation change if, say, the Red jammer is significantly better than the blue blocker, such that Blue attempts to booty block Red, but bounces/slides off, falls, and Red trips over her? Assume the block itself was legal but ineffective.

Is it basically the ref's call on whether Blue was falling as safely as she could?

Yeah, she wouldn't get a penalty.

As far as falling is concerned, "Falling Small" is usually "In the fetal position with forearms and shins towards the floor." Kind of like the "Duck and Cover" position.

Even if it's not exactly that, as long as she's not sprawling and not flailing, there is not usually anything that is called. I hate to say it's ref's discretion, because there are ways of telling the difference between "someone who's controlled falling" and "Someone who's being a danger to others on the track." So, I guess, the answer to your second question is... Kinda?

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

Dominion posted:

I have a question about back blocking vs tripping. Take the following situation:

Red Jammer skates directly into the back of Blue Blocker. Blue Blocker stumbles and falls, causing Red Jammer to then trip and fall over her.

Is that a backblock on Red or a tripping on Blue? Because I have seen it called both ways. I would think it would be backblock on Red, since she was the one who initiated the whole situation, but maybe I am wrong.

If I saw that, I would call it as a back block on Red as the initiator, but I'm still new to officiating. By the rules, it very well could be that both should be assessed majors. If you go by impact, though, since Red should get called off to the box for her back block, the low block doesn't impact her position (though it does still cause her to fall, which is specifically called out in the rules).

There's a hierarchy of penalties, but given that these are both illegal target zone penalties, one doesn't take precedence over the other (at least from the hierarchy).

edit: Oh, hey, there's another page here.

edit: Reading the above, I forgot about the falling small provision.

carticket fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Feb 19, 2011

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

Dominion posted:

I have a question about back blocking vs tripping. Take the following situation:

Red Jammer skates directly into the back of Blue Blocker. Blue Blocker stumbles and falls, causing Red Jammer to then trip and fall over her.

Is that a backblock on Red or a tripping on Blue? Because I have seen it called both ways. I would think it would be backblock on Red, since she was the one who initiated the whole situation, but maybe I am wrong.

Both get penalties. An old rules clarification stated that there is no carte blanche for penalties, but it's still relevant in this situation.
At least assuming that the blue blocker didn't fall small.
If she falls small then no penalty.


As for no more minors, if WFTDA is trialing something like that we won't know until they make it public. It would be covered by their NDA.
Ask a WFTDA ref, if they say no that's silly we're not doing that then they probably aren't. If they say I can't answer that, then... who knows?

Dancingthroughlife
Dec 15, 2009

Will dance for cupcakes
Well, I missed today's practice but still plan on seeing next week's. Looking at skates the Sure-grip Invaders seem to be a good newbie cheap skate. What about the Riedell Rogue's? I like the look of the lace covers.
Wish I could afford some Vanilla Brass Knuckles.

Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.

Spookydonut posted:

As for no more minors, if WFTDA is trialing something like that we won't know until they make it public. It would be covered by their NDA.
Ask a WFTDA ref, if they say no that's silly we're not doing that then they probably aren't. If they say I can't answer that, then... who knows?

I'm gonna go ahead and quote this and leave it at that.

Ria
Sep 21, 2003

yeah, i have no idea either

Aericina posted:

I'm gonna go ahead and quote this and leave it at that.

Pretty much. Or perhaps some of us are WFTDA plants that want to confuse the issue, cloud the public's ideas, and make people stop guessing and wait until a new rule set comes out...

:tinfoil:

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

Ria posted:

Pretty much. Or perhaps some of us are WFTDA plants that want to confuse the issue, cloud the public's ideas, and make people stop guessing and wait until a new rule set comes out...

:tinfoil:

If I were a plant, I would be bound by an NDA not to reveal whether or not I am a plant.

Psychobabble!
Jun 22, 2010

Observing this filth unsettles me

Dancingthroughlife posted:

Well, I missed today's practice but still plan on seeing next week's. Looking at skates the Sure-grip Invaders seem to be a good newbie cheap skate. What about the Riedell Rogue's? I like the look of the lace covers.
Wish I could afford some Vanilla Brass Knuckles.

A warning about lace covers: they're not all they're cracked up to be, and eventually they fall apart. After having my riedell 965 for a year the cover is falling off on both skates and looks like poo poo. I'm probably gonna cut it off.

Anyone gonna check out Wild West Showdown this year?

Dancingthroughlife
Dec 15, 2009

Will dance for cupcakes
Thanks Orpheus.
XL-55 vs. Rebels?

Dancingthroughlife fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Feb 25, 2011

Ria
Sep 21, 2003

yeah, i have no idea either

Mr. Powers posted:

If I were a plant, I would be bound by an NDA not to reveal whether or not I am a plant.

Yess... Yessss.... Exxxxcellent. *steeps fingers* All is going according to plan.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind
Hey derby peeps, don't forget about the big game Saturday night!!

http://www.derbynewsnetwork.com/2011/02/its_east_vs_west_flat_vs_banked_gotham_takes_bank_against_ladd

Dancingthroughlife
Dec 15, 2009

Will dance for cupcakes
Thanks Windyman, I'll be watching tonight. :)

overthefalls
Apr 17, 2005

"They called you exotic, which is just people talk for awesome!"
http://wftda.com/news/3-1-11-ap-grads

A lot of work went into it, but we're officially WFTDA now.

Now to see what I need to be a certified NSO/ref... god I hope I don't have to wear those horrid salmon shirts.

Dancingthroughlife
Dec 15, 2009

Will dance for cupcakes
Congratulations, Overthefalls. :)

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

overthefalls posted:

http://wftda.com/news/3-1-11-ap-grads

A lot of work went into it, but we're officially WFTDA now.

Now to see what I need to be a certified NSO/ref... god I hope I don't have to wear those horrid salmon shirts.

If you want to get your level 2 certification, wait until you can pass all the stuff you need to pass. If you get your level 1, you are locked into it for a year before you can graduate to level 2.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind
First post updated. March will be busy, with Wild West Showdown starting this weekend, March Radness and the special LA/SD game on the banked track also this Saturday, a bunch of WFTDA games sprinkled all around, and then the big one to cap off the month: Rocky Mountain on the banked track.

I hope some of you caught the LA/Gotham game, because it was fantastic. It was definitely in the top three games I've seen on the banked track. Bonnie Thunders can skate, that's for drat sure.

If you missed her last weekend, you'll probably get another chance on Saturday since the LADD/SDDD exhibition game will feature about six or eight guest skaters from other leagues, who are attending LA's March Radness training camp. No one will know who those skaters will be until the game gets going, but they'll be good skaters worth seeing on the bank.

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

Dominion posted:

Absolutely. I do the same, and my girlfriend has a similar struggle, being a home-league caliber player who is in a city/league very focused on travel team and national ranking type things.

She wants to skate because it's fun, doesn't really care about rankings or travel, and it seems there's less and less room for that as time goes on. At least in our local league.

quote:

And etc.

NOT TO GET OFF TRACK BUT
I know how this is. This happened when I was playing paintball. It seems like the more you play and the more serious you get about wanting to play, the less fun it gets. People suddenly become very concerned with winning and losing and doing things right or wrong, and it's... just not as fun anymore. I eventually ended up quitting because of it. Shooting at people stopped being fun. :( Hopefully this doesn't become the case with roller derby.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Redfont posted:

It seems like the more you play and the more serious you get about wanting to play, the less fun it gets. People suddenly become very concerned with winning and losing and doing things right or wrong, and it's... just not as fun anymore. I eventually ended up quitting because of it. Shooting at people stopped being fun. :( Hopefully this doesn't become the case with roller derby.

This is true for anything competitive, not just paintball or roller derby. And because of that, eventually there will be separation with players/leagues who want to do more and win more, instead of just play roller derby and have fun.

That's what I was talking about in one of my earlier posts, the differences between recreational, amateur, and professional players. If you start to get a situation where the derby stops being "fun," then you may be reaching a point where the time and effort required to stay involved with the sport is becoming too great to stay with the group that you're playing derby with.

If this were any other sport, you could step down a ladder on the rung and just play it recreationally, but that goes back to the problem I mentioned earlier. There's only one level right now, and you're either in it, or you're not. Really good players can't go up a level, and the not so good ones can't go down a level.

Everyone is lumped together, and the drawback to that is you can't cater to everyone equally. You're either going to keep back the good skaters so it's fair to the bad ones (relative term), or you're going to leave the bad skaters behind to cater to the good ones.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

WindyMan posted:


Everyone is lumped together, and the drawback to that is you can't cater to everyone equally. You're either going to keep back the good skaters so it's fair to the bad ones (relative term), or you're going to leave the bad skaters behind to cater to the good ones.

And the latter is more likely to happen than the former, because the "good" skaters are almost by definition the ones who have a more serious drive to play and compete and win, while the recreational skaters are only going to fight so hard for what they want to be recreation.

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

WindyMan posted:

This is true for anything competitive, not just paintball or roller derby. And because of that, eventually there will be separation with players/leagues who want to do more and win more, instead of just play roller derby and have fun.

That's what I was talking about in one of my earlier posts, the differences between recreational, amateur, and professional players. If you start to get a situation where the derby stops being "fun," then you may be reaching a point where the time and effort required to stay involved with the sport is becoming too great to stay with the group that you're playing derby with.

If this were any other sport, you could step down a ladder on the rung and just play it recreationally, but that goes back to the problem I mentioned earlier. There's only one level right now, and you're either in it, or you're not. Really good players can't go up a level, and the not so good ones can't go down a level.

Everyone is lumped together, and the drawback to that is you can't cater to everyone equally. You're either going to keep back the good skaters so it's fair to the bad ones (relative term), or you're going to leave the bad skaters behind to cater to the good ones.

You're right, and it's lovely. I wish it wasn't the case, but I guess roller derby is one of those sports that you can't just go out and... Actually that was already mentioned too. All the important stuff was covered, I just wanted to toss in my "hey this sucks." Roller derby is great, and it's too bad there's nowhere you can just stick to keep having fun.

At least it's getting some attention, though. Maybe eventually there will be a point where there are enough people interested that you could just find some strangers and pick something up. ... Seems like a far shot, though.

In other news, sweet, name registration. I can find out what names I can't use and at the same time perhaps be struck by inspiration to think of a good one.

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~
My league is going down the path of split levels of play.

The 'normal' level of public bouting.
Interleague team (drawn from the above).
Casual level of friends and family spectators only.

The 3rd level being brought about by safety concerns about some barely bout-level skaters.

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

So, I got to jam ref last night for the first time. It was during our tryouts which they ran without the ability for the lead jammer to call off the jam. It was a lot of fun, though. :)

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

Mr. Powers posted:

So, I got to jam ref last night for the first time. It was during our tryouts which they ran without the ability for the lead jammer to call off the jam. It was a lot of fun, though. :)

What'd they do that for? That seems like an important thing, to be able to recognize the point at which it's better to cut the whole thing off as opposed to letting the other team get any more points. Just curious.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

Redfont posted:

What'd they do that for? That seems like an important thing, to be able to recognize the point at which it's better to cut the whole thing off as opposed to letting the other team get any more points. Just curious.

For tryouts, it's more important to watch people skate for two minutes than it is to use strategic jam calls or clock management.

It's so they can say "tryouts involve skating for 3 jams" or however many, and be sure that won't be three 10 second quick called jams.

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

Dominion posted:

For tryouts, it's more important to watch people skate for two minutes than it is to use strategic jam calls or clock management.

It's so they can say "tryouts involve skating for 3 jams" or however many, and be sure that won't be three 10 second quick called jams.

This. We did it again tonight, but we didn't have jam refs. Just IPR and OPR, and we were all calling the penalties we saw.

I'm not sure if it was just a messy scrimmage, or if I am really getting that much better, but I was calling stuff left and right and seeing way more than I have in the past.

Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.
I caught this video this morning, and what a great way to stop the idiotic dancing at the line after the jam whistle blows.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Aericina posted:

I caught this video this morning, and what a great way to stop the idiotic dancing at the line after the jam whistle blows.

I wonder why more teams don't try flooring skaters that start a jam on a knee. The second their knee leaves the ground they should be fair game for a hit, no? That they're starting a jam off-balance and in a vulnerable position should be something the other team should exploit.

But I still hate slow starts.

scorpiobean
Dec 22, 2004

I'll have one sugar coma drink, please.

Dominion posted:

For tryouts, it's more important to watch people skate for two minutes than it is to use strategic jam calls or clock management.

It's so they can say "tryouts involve skating for 3 jams" or however many, and be sure that won't be three 10 second quick called jams.

Thirding this. It's good endurance, though sometimes we have jammers make a small motion like they're calling off the jam to denote that they know when they should call it off. Sometimes we do ten minute megajams with people in a line to go in. If somebody gets called off for a penalty or gets tired they can go out and the next person goes in. If the person coming off is the jammer or pivot, well let's say it's a good way to get people jamming or pivoting when they don't normally.

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

Aericina posted:

I caught this video this morning, and what a great way to stop the idiotic dancing at the line after the jam whistle blows.

This video is hilarious.

Dancingthroughlife
Dec 15, 2009

Will dance for cupcakes
If anyone is in the Colorado area the RMRG are having a boot camp in May, not for beginners.
Search for Rocky Mountain Rollergirls Bootcamp on Facebook. Suzy Hotrod and Urrk'n Jerk'n will be there. :)

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

WindyMan posted:

I wonder why more teams don't try flooring skaters that start a jam on a knee. The second their knee leaves the ground they should be fair game for a hit, no? That they're starting a jam off-balance and in a vulnerable position should be something the other team should exploit.

But I still hate slow starts.

Misconduct. Unless they are in an upright and skating position it's unsafe to hit them.

You should at least try to understand slow starts instead of just blindly hating them.
When people say "I hate slow derby" all I hear is "Derby isn't being played the way I want it".
Gone is the time when entire bouts would be slow-game. Now it's just another card in the deck of team strategies. Skaters seem to be okay with slow derby, and they're running things. Everyone else just has to :dealwithit:

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

Spookydonut posted:

Misconduct. Unless they are in an upright and skating position it's unsafe to hit them.

You should at least try to understand slow starts instead of just blindly hating them.
When people say "I hate slow derby" all I hear is "Derby isn't being played the way I want it".
Gone is the time when entire bouts would be slow-game. Now it's just another card in the deck of team strategies. Skaters seem to be okay with slow derby, and they're running things. Everyone else just has to :dealwithit:

I hate slow derby because as a pack ref, it usually means I need to stop and turn around to face the pack, which I haven't yet mastered. I haven't seen it come up that often.

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

Mr. Powers posted:

I hate slow derby because as a pack ref, it usually means I need to stop and turn around to face the pack, which I haven't yet mastered. I haven't seen it come up that often.

So what you actually hate is that you haven't yet mastered backwards skating transitions.

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

Spookydonut posted:

So what you actually hate is that you haven't yet mastered backwards skating transitions.

Exactly. I am getting better at it, but I'm still stumbling a high percentage of the time.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Spookydonut posted:

You should at least try to understand slow starts instead of just blindly hating them.
When people say "I hate slow derby" all I hear is "Derby isn't being played the way I want it".
Gone is the time when entire bouts would be slow-game. Now it's just another card in the deck of team strategies. Skaters seem to be okay with slow derby, and they're running things. Everyone else just has to :dealwithit:

I've iterated this in the thread previously. I understand why there are slow starts. I understand that a shorthanded team wants to try to burn clock in an attempt to get their penalized skaters out of the box. I understand why skaters take a knee before the pivot whistle so they can force an immediate jammer start. I understand why teams are reluctant to charge to the front of the pack, because they want to control the rear of the pack to ensure they're not caught out at the wrong side of a split no-pack situation.

I understand all of those things, and that is exactly why I hate slow starts.

I don't have a problem with "slow derby," in that if blockers from one team has full control pack, they should get to dictate the speed of the pack and the blockers in it. If the team in control wants things slow, that's in their power to do so for being in an advantageous position. That's not slow derby, that's good derby.

This is not the case during the start. Consider a team that has a 4-2 pack advantage. During a jam, it would be relatively easy for them to speed up or slow down the overall pace of the pack due to their superior numbers. They should also be able to position their players within the pack pretty much wherever they want. It makes sense, therefore, that the team with the superior numbers has a much easier time of doing what they want to do.

At the start for jam, however, there's nothing they can do that won't give the short-handed team an advantage of some kind, thereby creating a situation where their superior numbers puts them at a disadvantage. To make a point, instead of describing hypothetical scenarios, I want to ask the thread:

What should a team with four blockers do at the start of a jam against a team with two blockers, when the team with four blockers:

1) Wants the jam to start immediately (because it is an advantage to the shorthanded team if they burned penalty time before the jammer start),
2) Wants to immediately dictate the speed of the pack, in the same way a team with a 4-2 pack advantage should be able to do quite easily while they are rolling during a jam (because it would be an advantage to the shorthanded team if they controlled whether or not the pack was moving or stopping or fast or slow),
3) Wants to position their skaters within the pack mostly wherever they want, as a team with a 4-2 pack advantage should be able to do pretty easily (because it would be an advantage to the shorthanded team if they were able to get the positioning they wanted despite their inferior numbers), and
4) Will do no action that will provide the shorthanded team with any advantage whatsoever?

I'm genuinely curious to hear your solutions and justification for them.

WindyMan fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Mar 9, 2011

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

WindyMan posted:

At the start for jam, however, there's nothing they can do that won't give the short-handed team an advantage of some kind, thereby creating a situation where their superior numbers puts them at a disadvantage. To make a point, instead of describing hypothetical scenarios, I want to ask the thread:

What should a team with four blockers do at the start of a jam against a team with two blockers, when the team with four blockers:

1) Wants the jam to start immediately (because it is an advantage to the shorthanded team if they burned penalty time before the jammer start),

You've already descibed how to do this

quote:

2) Wants to immediately dictate the speed of the pack, in the same way a team with a 4-2 pack advantage should be able to do quite easily while they are rolling during a jam (because it would be an advantage to the shorthanded team if they controlled whether or not the pack was moving or stopping or fast or slow),
3) Wants to position their skaters within the pack mostly wherever they want, as a team with a 4-2 pack advantage should be able to do pretty easily (because it would be an advantage to the shorthanded team if they were able to get the positioning they wanted despite their inferior numbers), and
4) Will do no action that will provide the shorthanded team with any advantage whatsoever?

I'm genuinely curious to hear your solutions and justification for them.

This can be done by some strategic positioning and movement, at least in my mind.
But the points you raise are interesting. There aren't really any easy solutions.
Though it may become like chess, in that there are standard openings and standard responses to them.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Spookydonut posted:

This can be done by some strategic positioning and movement, at least in my mind.
But the points you raise are interesting. There aren't really any easy solutions.
Though it may become like chess, in that there are standard openings and standard responses to them.

I'm looking for specific strategic positioning and movement. But I'm confident no one will be able to find anything that doesn't hurt the team with four blockers. If you're saying all the full team has to do is points 2-4 to avoid 1, you're forgetting that all the team with two skaters has to do is not move at the start, which will prevent the pack from moving, thereby enabling them to burn penalty time and control the speed of the pack. Advantage: shorthanded team.

WindyMan fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Mar 9, 2011

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Psychobabble!
Jun 22, 2010

Observing this filth unsettles me

WindyMan posted:

you're forgetting that all the team with two skaters has to do is not move at the start, which will prevent the pack from moving, thereby enabling them to burn penalty time and control the speed of the pack. Advantage: shorthanded team.

You're forgetting that the other four blockers can move forward, which I believe would mean they are setting the pace of the pack but I'm not exactly sure. They keep moving forward until they get a no pack situation from the refs, which forces the other team to move forward.

On my league most teams won't typically burn time for too long(5-10 seconds, 15 absolute max, but never 30 like the video above), but one team started burning the clock for longer this season. In our season opener the team they were playing against didn't really know how to react to it, so they just sat around until the other team decided to move. I suggested the strategy above, and we tested it in a few scrimmages against them and it works like a charm, because if they don't make an effort to rejoin the pack, they risk being penalized.

(Hope I worded this right :ohdear:)

Also, on an unrelated note, hooray for my derby name(Das Wunderkind) being approved!

  • Locked thread