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Hello, and welcome to the new Roller Derby Megathread! This thread intends to be a one-stop shop for any information you need on the sport of roller derby in its current incarnation. In this post you will find current events and news. In the second post you will find information about roller derby including important points to know, key roller derby terms, and links of interest. Please find the original GBS thread here, and read on for everything you need to know about derby today: Last Updated on 1/25/2013 This post: Upcoming Events, News/Announcements Next post: Roller Derby 101, Basic Rules, History, WFTDA, Derby Organization, Links  <--- Read this if you have not seen roller derby recently, because it's not like wrestling anymore No really, it isn't. It kind of looks like it still but that's because roller derby is still dumb Roller derby in Minnesota Upcoming Major Events April 19-21 - Derby Ink Invitational - Probably the biggest derby event this year, if not ever, it's a $20,000 jackpot banked track tournament for both men and women. $8,000 go to each of the winning teams. It's put on by MADE, the co-ed derby organization based in the east coast, but many WFTDA skaters are already confirmed to be going, including Team Bionic and a WFTDA mash-up of skaters from Gotham, Philly, and Charm City. It will be live-streamed, but streaming details are not yet available. Do not miss this one. May 17-19 - Spring Roll - The biggest men's flat track derby (MRDA) event of the regular season, with 10 teams playing in various games over the three-day weekend. (There will also be WFTDA and Juniors games.) Considering the insanity at MRDA Champs, this is probably going to be must-see-Internet-TV as well. June 7-9 - Battle on the Bank VI - Banked track derby's (RDCL) big event. This year will be extra-significant since it will be played under a new rule set that is no longer a derivative of WFTDA rules. So that right there is reason to check it out. June 28-30 - East Coast Derby Extravaganza - The WFTDA's big "regular season" finale, with a lot of great teams coming together to play a lot of games. This is the last weekend before playoff rankings are locked in (see below), so it's always crazy-busy as far as action goes. News/Announcements Hello, 2013! It's the biggest year yet for roller derby. First, some major news. The WFTDA has announced a big shake-up with its new national rankings system, a switch from regional polling. This has allowed the WFTDA to introduce divisions to break up teams by skill level (sort of) and compel them to better schedule games. Details on the change can be found here. Oh yeah, and everyone is releasing updated rules for 2013, too. Freakin' finally, the WFTDA has updated their rules after a 2½ year wait. With no more minor penalties and some major housekeeping changes, most of the bad stuff has been removed. But it's a big unknown if it will be an overall improvement. RDCL (banked track), USARS, and MADE have updated rules out or coming out soon as well, so everyone is slowly but surely (but some faster than others) figuring things out. WindyMan fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jan 26, 2013 |
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 Roller derby in Seattle What is roller derby? In a nutshell, roller derby is an American-invented contact sport that involves two teams of five players each, all on roller skates, attempting to pass each other on an oval track for points. I like to call it a combination of football, hockey, and NASCAR; there are very similar traits of those sports found in roller derby. The Basics of Roller Derby In all forms of roller derby, two teams of five skaters each compete against each other on a specially marked oval track. The goal of the game is for a team’s designated point scorer, called the jammer, to overtake and then lap the skaters on the other team, while the other team’s jammer tries to do the same thing at the same time. This happens during a timed scoring cycle known as a jam. A team gets one point for every skater of the opposing team that their jammer can lap on each scoring pass. The jammers wear a star on their helmets so you can see that they are the scoring player on a team. The non-scoring group of skaters, known collectively as the pack, consists of up to four blockers from each team. The blockers attempt to help their jammer get through the pack, while simultaneously trying to prevent the other team’s jammer from doing the same, effectively making the blockers play offense and defense at the same time. A specially designated blocker, known as the pivot, is traditionally considered the boss of the pack for a team and can become a jammer under certain circumstances. Pivots wear a striped helmet. Roller Derby History 101  Roller derby in Chicago's Comiskey Park in 1973 Although various skating competitions have been taking place in the U.S. since the 1880s, contemporary roller derby got its start in the 1930s when Leo Seltzer organized a simulated cross-country rollerskating race held on a banked skating track, featuring teams of male-female pairs. What was planned to be just an hours-long endurance race turned into a more physical affair when slower skaters started blocking the advances of faster skaters to prevent being lapped. Although this wasn't originally a part of the rules it turned out to be the most exciting part of the event, and because of its popularity Seltzer ultimately devised what is now known as the sport of roller derby. Due to its roots, pro roller derby teams have always had both men and women on them (alternating periods in a game) making derby unique in sports. Derby continued to thrive up through the 1960s, during which time Leo's son Jerry took over to become the head of roller derby. During these years, roller derby was being played in front of crowds upwards of 16,000 in Madison Square Garden; 28,000 in Oakland Coliseum; 50,000 in Comiskey Park in Chicago. Part of the reason for derby's sheer popularity around this time was due in part to it starting to become more "sports entertainment" (a la the WWE) instead of just a straight sport. There would be fighting, hair-pulling, and more or less "illegal" things going on during some games, all of which was distracting from the actual sport of roller derby. Jerry Seltzer eventually shut down roller derby in the early 1970s due to financial and other reasons. However, derby still stuck around in various mutations between then and now. In the late 80s there was a made-for-TV version of roller derby called Rollergames, wherein skaters had to skate on a figure-8 track, survive the highly-banked "Wall of Death," launch off of a jump for points, had a bitchin' rad 80s-futuristic scoreboard and, most famously, had an alligator pit in the infield. That only lasted for a year. In 1999, a modernized made-for-TV roller derby series called Rollerjam featured professional skaters using inline skates around a larger, faster track. This was awesome for all of half of the first season, but then it quickly devolved into wrestling on roller skates (almost literally, since TNA wrestling preceded it on the network it was on) and was cancelled after four TV seasons. The modern revival of roller derby—that derby you've heard about recently and why you're probably reading this thread—started in 2002. A group of women in Texas thought it would be cool to try out the roller derby they remember watching while growing up, but actually make rules and play it legit. That has grown from an idea to over 1200 leagues in the United States and around the world. All roller derby leagues are completely skater-owned and operated on a volunteer basis. All players are amateurs (in that they don’t do derby exclusively and are not paid) and do it primarily for love of the game. The Women's Flat Track Derby Association (WFTDA) sanctions interleague women's play in the U.S. and is growing internationally. The Men's Roller Derby Association (MRDA) was recently organized to handle the initial organization of the few men's derby teams that are starting to pop up. Unlike all past forms of traditional roller derby, modern roller derby (at least for now) separates men and women into distinct and altogether separate leagues and teams. Traditional derby games also took place on the banked track, but nowadays (with a few exceptions as noted below) modern derby is played on a flat track due to cost and setup reasons. Any legit derby game you will go to will more than likely play under standardized rules created for the women’s flat track game. The Modern Roller Derby Game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2W2b1WBmm4 Flat track roller derby rules In flat track games using standardized WFTDA rules, games last 60 minutes and are broken up into two 30-minute halves. Jams last two minutes. Pack skaters line up in a standing start with the pivots up front, the other blockers behind them. The two jammers start 20 feet behind the pack. At the start of a jam, one whistle sends the pack around the track, and a second whistle starts the jammers. The first jammer that can make their initial (non-scoring) pass through the pack without committing a penalty is declared the lead jammer. This is a special jammer status that allows said jammer to stop the jam early, to either stop the other jammer from scoring or for other strategic reasons, by placing their hands on their hips. Once given, lead jammer status cannot change, but there are situations where neither jammer is a lead jammer and a jam will go the full two minutes. Referees can peg skaters for different types and severities of penalties during gameplay. If a skaters does something illegal but it doesn’t affect gameplay, they are issued a minor penalty and get to continue skating. If a skater does something illegal that immediately affects gameplay for their own advantage or to the other team’s disadvantage, they get whistled for a major penalty and are sent immediately to the penalty box for a one-minute penalty. The skater is also sent to the penalty box for a minute if they collect four minor penalties. After getting seven majors during one game, the skater gets a penalty ejection and can’t return. Ejections can also occur for gross misconduct, throwing punches, fighting, or other majorly bad stuff. During which time a skater (or skaters) for a team is in a penalty box, that team needs to skate shorthanded for the duration of the penalty. If a jammer gets a penalty, the other team will enjoy a power jam situation, wherein they will be the only team that can score (as the other team’s jammer can’t score from the penalty box). Any skaters sitting in the penalty box become points—that is, ghost points—for the other team once the other team’s jammer scores on someone from the other team during a scoring pass. Players can only legally block with their shoulders and booty, and can only hit people in their upper body region. Common penalties involve use of arms or elbows during blocks; passing someone out of bounds (cutting the track); intentionally breaking up the pack, which must stay together; blocking out of play, which is normally 20 feet outside of the defined pack; and blocking someone in their back (ramming from behind). The current WFTDA ruleset allows for skaters to stop on the track and skate the wrong way (clockwise), but all blocking must happen in a forward (counter-clockwise) direction. Women’s Flat Track Derby Association (WFTDA)  2012 WFTDA Playoffs in San Francisco Formed in 2006, the WFTDA is the major sanctioning body in women’s flat-track roller derby. As of late 2012, they have about 170 sanctioned leagues primarily located in the U.S., but leagues from Canada and Europe are also starting to get sanctioning. About 90 more are in WFTDA apprentice leagues awaiting full sanctioning. Leagues were previously divided by region, but now the WFTDA uses a division system that ranks all teams regardless of geographic location. For the most part any roller derby league, sanctioned or not, will have different teams within their home league. These home teams play against each other and have their own league championship. Leagues will then pool together their best skaters from within their local teams into all-star travel teams, which play against other travel teams within their region and inter-regionally. The results of these games to determine official WFTDA regional rankings. These rankings determine seeding for the end-of-year playoffs, known as The Big Five. The top ten teams from each region get invited to the four regional tournaments to determine final regional ranking, and then the top three winners from regionals qualify for If you want to see flat track roller derby at its best, the regionals and the championships are the best times to watch it. Luckily, games can be seen for free streaming over the Internet, and a lot of times games are archived for posterity. If you need to see a high-quality game of derby to truly understand what it’s about, I recommend reviewing the 2009 Eastern Regionals final between Gotham and Philly to see one of the better games in modern derby history, which you can start watching here. There are far too many WFTDA teams to list here, but you can easily find a fully-sanctioned league or up-and-coming apprentice league near you at the WFTDA website. You can also see regional rankings (and unofficial national rankings) for top teams in the first post. Men’s Roller Derby Association (MRDA) For whatever reason, modern men’s roller derby didn’t get organized until 2008. Back then, the loose collection of men's derby leagues formed the Men's Derby Coalition. The MDC was not exactly a sanctioning body per se, but at the time were the only group available for men’s leagues to turn to to help organize leagues and inter-league play. Since then, the MDC has, according to their website, "grown up." As of March 2011 the MDC has been upgraded to the Men's Roller Derby Association (MRDC), the de facto sanctioning body for men's derby leagues. They are effectively the male equivalent to the WFTDA. However, although they use the WFTDA ruleset for consistency’s sake and many of the male skaters help organize, referee and coach WFTDA leagues and teams, the MRDA is otherwise unaffiliated with the WFTDA, although they collaborate with each other for the purposes of helping to grow the sport of roller derby. As of January 2011 the MDC only has eleven sanctioned leagues in the U.S. However, much like women’s derby that number is likely to skyrocket in the next few years. Some of the better-known men’s teams are the New York Shock Exchange, Harm City Homicide (Baltimore, MD), St. Louis Gatekeepers (MO), and Puget Sound Outcasts (Tacoma, WA). A full list of known men’s leagues can be found on the MDRA website. Modern Banked Track Roller Derby  Although flat track derby is the most prevalent form of the game being played right now, a few leagues are lucky enough to be in a position to play derby the way it has always been played historically: on the banked track. Games on a banked track are faster and harder hitting due to the nature of the banked skating surface and elevated outside railing. It’s also waaaay more expensive to run a banked track league since you need to both build the track (not cheap) and put it somewhere, either in storage or in a permanent venue (also not cheap). Remember, even banked track leagues are run by volunteers! Because there are so few banked track leagues around the country, local banked leagues generally play within their local teams only, using their own rulesets. However, for the most part banked track games have slightly different rules on account of its nature. While games are still 60 minutes, there are instead four 15-minute quarters, and jams are only 60 seconds each. The lead jammer is always literally the jammer in the lead, so if one jammer passes the other on the track lead jammer status will change immediately. Skaters are not allowed to stop moving skate backwards under any circumstances. There are still minor and major penalties, but major penalties are not served until the start of the next jam and only last for the duration of the jam. Because of that, the last jam of a banked track game has different rules for penalties and scoring ghost points. Other than that, the game is effectively the same as flat-track derby. Banked track all-star travel teams very rarely play each other outside of the Battle on the Bank banked-track roller derby tournament, which started in 2008 and takes place every summer. During this tournament they play under a standardized ruleset formed under a loose organization of banked leagues called the World Organization of Roller Derby (WORD), but outside of that there is no national sanctioning body for banked track leagues. However, starting this year (2011) banked track teams are starting to play against each other more than they have been. In addition, many established WFTDA teams are trying their luck against top banked track teams in full games using WORD rules. If you’re mostly familiar with the flat track game or would just like see what roller derby on the high banks is all about, I highly recommend the 3rd place game between LA and Texas in this past summer’s Battle on the Bank tournament. This particular game is more physical than your normal game would be, but it’s still pretty freakin’ awesome. Start watching it here. Some of the better-known banked track leagues in the country are the Derby Dolls (Los Angeles/San Diego), TXRD (Texas), Tilted Thunder (Seattle), the Arizona Derby Dames, and others. Battle on the Bank also has its own website. Other Organizations USARS, or USA Roller Sports, is the recognized sanctioning body for roller sports in the USA. (If you play inline or rink hockey, it's them.) The recently came out with their own roller derby rules (which I helped write, sort of) and are attempting to advance the game to a new level, potentially an Olympic level. They just got started with their first games in 2012, but will come out with more exposure this year. Keep an eye out for these guys. MADE, or the Modern Athletic Derby Endeavor. Based on the east coast, these guys are co-ed and play both flat track and banked track. Their rules are a modernized update to the classic roller derby rules, but played legitimately. Unrelated is the OSDA, the Old-School Derby Association, which plays by classic rules untouched, but still legitimately, although OSDA leagues are few and far between. Renegade derby is a billed as a no-holds barred style of game, where there are fewer rules (if any) and is generally more wild and out of control. Do not mistake this for real, legit roller derby, because it is not...though it's an interesting way to watch the game being played. You’ll also still hear about the old, classic banked track derby teams like the Bay City Bombers or the LA Thunderbirds. Nowadays these teams merely play exhibitions, make appearances, etc. Much like the Harlem Globetrotters, they’re just there for the show, and not so much actual competition. You should also not mistake this kind of derby for real roller derby, although the history of teams like these should definitely be appreciated. Find Roller Derby in your Area If you live in a major city, or near a major city, or like to pretend you live near a major city, then there is a high probability you live near a local roller derby league or two. If you do a search for "<your location> roller derby" you’ll find something easily. However it’s very important to realize that since roller derby is still expanding, the league you find or the game you go to may not be representative of the overall quality of derby today. For example, a league’s games may be held in a warehouse or a full-blown sports arena. A game could be very competitive between two good teams, very competitive between two bad teams, or a blowout of a bad team by a good team. You could see one game, a double-header, or multi-game tournament at one event. If you just go to one game and don’t like it, you shouldn’t immediately put it off. (You wouldn’t like basketball all that much if you only saw the Clippers and Nets play each other, right?) But for the most part, you’ll like derby if you like sports, and a lot of people that don’t generally like sports can enjoy (and play!) roller derby. Because of its grass-roots revival, anyone can play roller derby. Even you! Women will have an admittedly easier time finding a league to try out for, but before not too long even you lazy-rear end guy goons will be able to find a male league looking for man-skaters. If you can’t wait, women’s leagues need referees and volunteers of all genders, so find your local league and get involved! Derby News Network DNN is the go-to info site for everything roller derby. They try to cover as many games as humanly possible, with live streaming video, in conjunction with the individual leagues’ own in-house production teams. Much like roller derby itself, DNN is supported financially by its audience. Basically, if you want to watch roller derby but can’t see it in person, you can watch it for free through their website when it’s available. DNN also keeps an unofficial top-25 power rankings list for all derby teams regardless of region, and carries scores and other derby news. If you want to see derby streaming live online, in addition to most games DNN covers, I highly recommend watching the webcasts for the Derby Dolls (Los Angeles and San Diego; banked track), Rose City Rollers (Portland, OR; flat track) or Gotham Girls Roller Derby (New York; flat track) since they have the best video quality and highest production values out there at this moment in time. Also, they’re some of the best derby leagues in the country. You can find upcoming game and webcast schedules on the individual websites for the leagues or on DNN. Links of Interest http://wftda.com - Women’s Flat Track Derby Association (league and sanctioning info, rules, rankings) http://www.mensderbyassociation.com - Men’s Roller Derby Association (formally MDC; leagues and organization info) http://www.derbynewsnetwork.com - Derby News Network (live streaming games, news, rankings, scores) http://flattrackstats.com/ - Flat Track Stats (statistics and rankings) http://www.derbydeeds.com - Derby Deeds podcast (news and views) http://www.rollerderbyjesus.com/ - Personal blog of Jerry Seltzer, main promoter of derby through the 70s (derby history and insight) http://windyman.net/ - My personal derby blog, WindyMan's Roller Derby Notes http://www.derbyroster.com/ - Listing of all known roller derby leagues in the world http://www.twoevils.org/rollergirls/ - Roller derby skater name registry WindyMan fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jan 26, 2013 |
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Oct 14, 2010 03:11
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Jiminy Krimpet posted:I will point out that "games" are called "bouts." I've never heard anyone who was familiar with derby call them "games," but you seem to know your stuff, perhaps they call them "games" in LA? No, they're called games. If Jerry Seltzer, the Jesus* of roller derby, calls them games, then they're called games. Always have been. Jerry Seltzer posted:I was at Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis and we sold out weeks in advance for this 10,000 seat facility. A writer from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch was at the game (not bout, dammit) and was amazed. Jerry Seltzer posted:After several years we started to expand our operations and as our television network grew, we were able to play games (not bouts) in more and more cities. He makes reference to this fact all the time on his blog. *The Son of The Father of Roller Derby
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Oct 14, 2010 05:42
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In response to "legitimate" derby, as much as I've always dreamed of seeing roller derby played legitimately, I still can't help but think what it "should" be now. Watching YouTube videos of roller derby in the 70s, seeing the hair-pulling and fighting made me long for legit derby. My first exposure to roller derby, Rollergames, made me (even when I was a kid) long for legit derby. I thought it would come with Rollerjam in 1999, but when that started becoming fake, I went back to longing for legit derby. Now that we actually have real roller derby, part of me still longs for "legit" derby insofar as much as skaters not using their real names, dressing skimpily, and so on. I've read in places that part of the reason (some) girls dress they way that they do was partially because of the culture derby spawned from, and also to help get a paying audience in the stands. I don't know if that second part is necessarily true anymore, but you can't deny that's what may initially get some people to give derby a look-see. I'm the type of fan that wants to see pro roller derby—legitimate pro roller derby—come back. Like Monday Night Football on ESPN, but roller derby. If it ever gets to that point, it'd have to start with real names on the skaters. I can't ever envision a scenario where Al Michaels, Joe Buck, or any other play-by-play man brodcasting to a live national audience say people's derby names and anyone take them seriously. Still, I think it can be the best of both worlds. If there was ever a legit pro derby league, they could be all of that, and WFTDA and all the individual amateur leagues can keep doing their thing. However, the feeling I get is that, especially with women's leagues being the face of derby at the moment, people are going for the spectacle and staying for the sport. What I want them to do is go for the sport and stay for the sport, if you know what I mean. I'm very curious to see what will happen when men's derby starts taking more equal footing, to see if that will help with this, and also what will happen with women's derby and derby in general because of it. Dominion posted:Seltzer may call them games, but basically everyone else involved in the sport calls them bouts. Seltzer calls them "games" because his father called them "games." His father—Leo Seltzer—called them "games" because he invented roller derby. I would take it upon the inventor of the sport to know what to call his own games. You can call them whatever you want, but they've always been called games from day one. (I jokingly call Jerry the Jesus of Roller Derby, because the father of roller derby is Leo, and Jerry is his son. He is literally the Son of the Father of Roller Derby. Get it?) emoltra posted:Has Beavis casted any more games? That's Dumptruck. He's probably the best-known derby announcer there is, partially for his voice (which is his real, normal voice) and partially because he wears eccentric clothing and is one hell of a partier. He normally calls games for Denver but is as much a part of the national roller derby scene as anyone. He'll be doing the championships with DNN, too. I met him at that tournament, the Battle on the Bank, and that was actually his first-ever banked track derby event, seeing or announcing. He loved it.
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Oct 14, 2010 22:23
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Vintage Vixen posted:Thanks for mentioning the Arizona Derby Dames in the OP under the banked track section. We just completed our first season of banked track to much bigger, louder crowds that we had when we were flat track for four seasons prior. We're also the hosts of Battle on the Bank IV tournament in 2011. It will be held at Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum (our usual venue) in Phoenix June 10 - 12th. Yes, I know you ladies just got your banked track setup this year and LA helped you out a lot with that. The SoCal area is starting to see more banked track derby, too. LA and San Diego are well-established, but I also hear that Long Beach (CA) and Sugartown (Oxnard, CA) are starting to make plans for banked tracks. That would give our area four banked track leagues/venues within a two-hour drive. We're totally spoiled here. By the way, since I now know where BotBIV is going to be, I need to start making plans for that. It's a seven hour drive for me (awesome). Anyone want to come with?
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Oct 20, 2010 20:11
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Dominion posted:I really, really hate stopped packs and clockwise skating. I know it's legal, and I know it's sometimes good strategy, but to me it feels like it's not in the spirit of roller derby and it sort of breaks the game flow for a lot of spectators because it's counter-intuitive and they don't really get it. I agree with this 100%. The perfect analogy for this is what Hurt Reynolds of DNN said on an episode of the Derby Deeds podcast, which I'll paraphrase: Hurt Reynolds posted:In baseball, baserunners have to stay in the baselines for a reason. Imagine if the rules were setup so baserunners could run all around the field in an attempt to avoid getting tagged while running between the bases. There would certainly be strategy involved in doing this, but is that really how baseball is supposed to be played? Same thing with roller derby. Stopping and skating backwards on the track creates creates or is created by certain strategies, but is that necessarily how derby is supposed to be played? From a historical standpoint, skating backwards in roller derby has always been illegal. Stopping is only allowed when you go too far forward in front of the pack and wait for it to catch back up (because the pack always moving forward). I never completely understood why doing derby on a flat track somehow made it okay to deviate from this. I also don't see why it isn't considered dangerous from a saftey standpoint. If you have a fast jammer breaking from the pack at the same time a high blocker is skating backwards toward it, there could be a potential for a collision. Same thing with skaters skating backwards from the penalty box, where they could hit a ref or a skater getting flung out of bounds.
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Oct 22, 2010 17:10
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Aericina posted:You know what else I hate? No pack starts on the first whistle and dancing on the line. Combine both into this video and it makes me seethe a little. I agree, but I have facts to support the argument. Let's dig out the rulebook. quote:4.1.2 - When two or more groups of Blockers equal in number are on the track; are more than 10 feet from one another; and no single group meets the pack definition, no pack can be defined. Skaters will be issued a penalty for intentionally creating a no pack situation i.e. destroying the pack (see Section 6.10.2). Both teams are responsible for maintaining a legally defined pack. A skater or group of skaters is always responsible for the consequences of their actions. If their actions create a no pack situation (except those covered in Section 6.10.2.3), they should be penalized as directed in Sections 6.10.9–6.10.24. You know those situations where blockers take a knee at the start line to force a no-pack and start the jammers right away? It's clearly a penalty, and it's not being called. Plus, I'm pretty sure the rules contradict what slow-play teams are doing, if not the rules themselves: quote:4.3.3 - Blockers who are out of play must slow or speed up to re-enter the Engagement Zone. That's rule 4.3, Jam Positioning. The major point of this rule is that if a blocker goes too far forward, they should slow to re-enter the pack. There's no provision for backwards/clockwise/counterflow skating in this rule, or anywhere in rule 4, yet it seems as if skaters (and refs) are taking "drop back" to mean "skate back," especially when you consider this the blocking rules... quote:5.1.1 - Blocking is any movement on the track designed to knock the opponent down or out of bounds or to impede the opponent’s speed or movement through the pack. Blocking includes counter-blocking. Blocking need not include contact. By creating stop-walls on a goated blocker, teams are committing a penalty per rule 5.1.1.3, are they not? They don't need to contact them, just the fact that they're impeding the progress of the player behind is the definition of "blocking" by the WFTDA's own rules. Besides, if the wall didn't move, wouldn't any contact by the player being blocked behind the wall be a back block on them? Either way, it sets up too many situations where penalties should be called, according to the rules, but they never do. If you want to simplify things about this rule and also kill two birds with one stone, all the WFTDA needs to do is require skaters remain skating forwards (counter-clockwise) at all times. This will force blockers to move forward off the pivot line (since remaining still is not skating forwards) and make stop-blocks illegal (as they are already should be in the current rules) because you need to be moving forward at all times. Refs should also be given discretion to instruct the pack to have stopping/slower players return to "forward skating speed" if someone tries to hold back the pack. I know rules 6.9.3 and 6.9.4 directly permits general skating and clockwise skating, but the rules I referenced above seem to either conflict with the wording there or aggrevate general skater movement with what they're allowed to do while blocking. Can I get a comment from the refs about the rules I pointed out, or am I missing something? (Or are you missing something?) WindyMan fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Oct 22, 2010 |
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Oct 22, 2010 21:18
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I updated the first post with the new WFTDA regional rankings. Championships are this weekend, people!
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Nov 1, 2010 23:00
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I don't know about that, there were a ton of great games Friday and Saturday. Gotham/Rocky was probably one of the best games of flat-track derby I've seen in a while. It was very physical, very fast, and Rocky is starting to show how much they want it all in a very convincing win. That game totally wrecked my bracket, though. It's going to be rematch central for the last two games, Philly vs Gotham for 3rd place at 3pm ET, and Rocky vs Oly for 1st at 5pm ET. So sad it's going to be over so soon.
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Nov 7, 2010 18:23
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Totally TWISTED posted:Anyone else watch the live streams? Any comments on that? The streaming was great for the most part, but the late games on Friday and Saturday had some problems. DNN was saying that a lot of that had to do with Justin.tv not being able to handle the higher demands of feeding the video to as many people as tuned in, and plus they're apparently cutting back staff at that website so it was hard to get any answers as to why. That's why for Sunday they switched to a different provider, which I'm hearing wasn't exactly cheap. However, when the same streaming issue popped up in the 2nd half of the Oly/Rocky game, they were corrected quickly. Things happen when 3000+ people from all over the world are trying to tune in. All things considered, DNN is doing great when you realize they're trying to do all of this on a shoestring donation budget. DNN isn't happy with the problems and is looking on a way to improve on things for next season. And so with the WFTDA season over, the only thing worth mentioning that's left this year is the LA Derby Dolls banked track season, which has two games left in it, which will both be streamed (naturally). Fight Crew vs. Varsity Brawlers this Saturday for pride, but then December 4 will be San Diego Swarm vs. LA Tough Cookies for the championship. These two teams have a big history, and when they played each other last month it was pretty epic. I'll update the first post later this week with more details, but trust me—you won't want to miss this one.
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Nov 9, 2010 00:58
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First post updated, please check them out. Chicago, you guys are lucky bastards.  Click here for the full 600x900 image.
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Nov 10, 2010 03:55
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Dominion posted:The "Slow Derby Sucks" people at Nationals were hilarious. And by hilarious I mean hilariously wrong and not even internally consistent. But they had a literal manifesto they were handing out. And a bad website. "Slow derby" doesn't suck. It's not doing a goddamn thing for a minute after the start whistle. The Gotham/Philly 3rd place game, with those three jams when nothing happened for 30sec~1min is exactly the evidence the "slow derby sucks" people need to start making a case for that sort of nonsense to get thrown out of the game. I see two major things wrong with it: 1) Penalties don't really penalize a team, and in fact, can give the penalized team an advantage in certain circumstances. If Team A has a 4-2 pack advantage over Team B, logic and strategy should point to Team A having pack dominance over Team B. Problem is, if Team A wants to control the rear of the pack at the start, there's nothing they can do if Team B doesn't leave the line on account of wanting to burn off as much penalty time as they can for their penalized blockers. Team A doesn't want to leave the line right away because then Team B will get the rear of the pack, which both teams perceived as an advantage at that point. This therefore gave pack control to the shorthanded Team B, which logically makes no sense whatsoever. On top of that, Team B's penalized skaters don't really give Team A an advantage in any way, shape or form in this situation. Sure, Team A could have just skated out to start the jam and forced no pack, then skate back to retake the rear. They could have taken a knee at the beginning to force a jam start, and then do the same. (Either way, there's no guarantee Team A would get the pack control they want, but by all rights should have by default.) But my point is that the current rules are not robust enough to account for scenarios like this, and the fact like something like this can legally happen at all should be considered for future rules revisions. If you're in the penalty box, you should be giving your team a disadvantage at all times, just like in any other legitimate sport. 2) Consider this from the perspective of the average joe. Yes, you're a roller derby fan, and you're going to like roller derby no matter what. But what if you were not a derby fan, heard about this derby thing on the news, paid money to see top-tier roller derby, and saw several minutes of nothing happening during a game? Is that really entertaining to people? Is that entertaining enough for major sports networks to put money into it, or big-name sponsors to brand their name on it? All sports have evolved over the decades to make them more entertaining for the paying customers. Football, remember, didn't have forward passing a long time ago. Ever since that was introduced, rules were subsequently relaxed to give offensive receivers more freedom and make bigger, more entertaining plays feasible. Basketball didn't use to have a shot clock, so teams would just hold the ball and do nothing to keep leads. Fans didn't like that, so the NBA made people do something with the ball or lose possession. Now there's constant action in basketball. Roller derby—at least, flat track roller derby—is likely going to go through a similar transition to make sure it's more accessible and entertaining to the average person, and not just roller derby fans. And just so I head this off at the pass, "strategy" has nothing to do with this. Strategy just means a team is using the tools at their disposal to best take advantage of the rules in their favor. Thing is, that's the same for everyone, and if the rules are changed, it effects everyone equally. It's not the teams' fault that people call them out for playing "slow." They're just doing the best they can. Maybe it's better to call out the rules and see about maybe tweaking them in everyone's best interests.
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Nov 11, 2010 03:46
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Dominion posted:Yeah, I'm sure that both those rules (no-start and taking a knee) will get changed in the next few months at the latest. I don't have a problem with them but a lot of people do. I don't have a problem with the taking a knee start, insofar as much as it actually forces a start and speeds the game up, like you said. However, that doesn't change the fact that teams find it necessary to do this in the first place, due to how the rules are drawn up. People shouldn't be criticizing the players or teams that do this, but instead should be criticizing the rules that cause the need for them to do it. However, there is a difference between "slow" derby and "not moving" derby. If a team can manage to slow a pack to a crawl, then that team is showing pack dominance and is playing well. What's really at issue, what "slow" derby opponents are probably actually criticizing, is when the skaters stop moving altogether. Or worse, start skating backwards. It's ugly to watch, confusing as hell to an uneducated outside observer. Would it be so difficult to just mandate that skaters are attempting to move forward at all times? You don't need to make them skate fast, you just need to make them skate, period. Skating, after all, implies forward motion by its definition. This would also eliminate the need to do the no-pack start since skaters wouldn't be permitted to burn clock by not moving. Traditional roller derby has never, ever, ever allowed stopping on the track during a jam. Skaters have always been made to move forward at all times. There are times they've moved really fast, and there are times they've moved really slow. But they've always been moving. And they've never moved backwards, either. Like I've previously said (I think) I don't know why being on a flat track somehow makes it logical to allow stopping and backwards skating when it was never a part of derby in the first place.
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Nov 11, 2010 05:39
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Dominion posted:I guess we just disagree then. I have no problem at all with clockwise skating within the current rules. You can't block from a standstill or while moving clockwise, so that's a pretty big restriction. I don't think it's ugly at all, and it being confusing to an uninformed outsider doesn't bother me at all. If they like derby they can learn the rules and then they won't be an outside anymore. That's fine, but if too many share that mentality the sport's growth will be restricted. You can't make the assumption that the population at large will want to learn anything more than the basics of derby, because if the basics are too complicated then they'll just move on to something else. Dominion posted:For what it's worth, though, yes, it would be difficult to mandate that you always have to move forward. Would it apply if you were out of play? All the time people get blocked out and have to skate backwards a little while out of bounds to avoid cutting track. I should have been more clear about that: Skating forward only while in play. In banked track (aka traditional) rules if you're out of play too far forward, you need to stop and wait for the pack (which is always moving forward) to catch back up to you. Conveniently, that would also eliminate skaters stopping and then back-tracking to trap a jammer who got pushed out, which I absolutely hate. The spirit of the rule has always been for the player getting pushed out of bounds to not gain a positional advantage when re-entering the track. At least with how I interpret the rules, if a blocker skates backwards to prevent a jammer from coming back in from the same point on the track she left, that should be a backwards block; Rule 5 states that a block need not include contact if said block is positional. The same rules say it is illegal to block while at a standstill, yet players and teams get way with that all the time. Again, the WFTDA's own ruleset says you don't need to contact someone to be blocking them; if you're in their way, it's a block. Is it not?
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Nov 11, 2010 06:18
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Dominion posted:I like rulesets that allow for strategic depth and a variety of valid styles and tactics. It should not be that speed is the only way to win. WindyMan posted:And just so I head this off at the pass, "strategy" has nothing to do with this. Strategy just means a team is using the tools at their disposal to best take advantage of the rules in their favor. Thing is, that's the same for everyone, and if the rules are changed, it effects everyone equally. It's not the teams' fault that people call them out for playing "slow." They're just doing the best they can. Maybe it's better to call out the rules and see about maybe tweaking them in everyone's best interests. In other words, any ruleset will call for strategic depth and a variety of valid styles and tactics. That argument is invalid.
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Nov 11, 2010 06:37
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Bump to remind everyone about a few banked track goings-on this weekend and beyond... Tomorrow (Saturday) night is the LA Derby Dolls championship game. Please see the first post for details on its epicness. You can watch the game via DNN or directly from the Derby Dolls website. Feed starts at 7:30p PT/10:30p ET, and the game itself is at 8p PT/11p ET. Also, Tilted Thunder up in Seattle will be having their very first banked track game at the same time. Hooray for them! They'll be coming down to play one of LA's local teams, the Sirens, next September. I've heard that there will not be live video of this game, but that some may be made available at a later date. Here's hoping! Also coming to LA next season is Gotham Girls Roller Derby. Yessiree, February 26 will be the LA Derby Dolls vs. Gotham on the banked track. Ho-lee-poo poo, that's going to be sweet. As well, Rocky Mountain is tentatively scheduled to come down in March, but I'm not sure if that's actually set in stone. I hope it is, because DeRanged is even more so when skating banked. No kidding.
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Dec 4, 2010 02:58
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New DNN Power Rankings are out. I updated the first post with them.Aericina posted:There was a lot of slow derby/not passing the pack line and at one point the crowd booed. Once one of the Naptown boxed skaters joined the pack, everyone cheered. You can't please them all. Shockingly, there were also quite a few "slow" starts during the LA Derby Dolls game. This is extremely odd for banked track derby, since there's really no benefit to stalling. The jam timer doesn't start in banked rules until the jammer whistle, and there's no penalty time to burn off. Plus, banked rules have a "start box" for the pack (everyone starts behind the pivot line and in front of the rear pack start line five feet away) so there's not much positioning to be done. People were booing, obviously. The only reason I could figure out why they did it was to keep down the rolling distance/closing speed between the jammers and the rear of the pack. Seems like a small advantage to want to have, but during a championship scenario, when every point counts and when rule sets are really tested, whatever you can do to squeeze out an advantage will be exploited. I don't agree with everything people hate about the so-called slow derby, but hating non-starts and inaction is one of the things I do agree with them on. There will come a point when the people harping "strategy" in slow derby will realize that unless rulebooks are written more robustly to account for these extreme situations you're going to lose the entertainment value from the persepective of the paying crowd. In other words, if it's turning people off from wanting to watch derby, is it ultimately worth it for derby's long-term health and potential? WindyMan fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Dec 6, 2010 |
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Dec 6, 2010 21:44
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I would think the Gotham/Philly gap will return to the level it was in late 2009, where Philly and Gotham were effectively equal. It will be interesting to see how Gotham losing a top-tier jammer and Philly picking one up affects things in the East and nationally. Philly has been stuck as fourth best in the country this year, but certainly has the potential to take it to anyone under the right circumstances.
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Dec 6, 2010 22:03
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Holllllly shiiiiiiiiiitttttt More pictures I've found so far on Twitter: http://twitpic.com/3eqf4i http://twitpic.com/3er0rh http://twitpic.com/3erikl Seriously, this is going to be awesome. DNN will have a textcast of it starting tomorrow at 8:45pm ET. No live video. However, Red Bull will likely be filming the game and will probably put together video highlights afterwards, like they do with their other crazy events. It should be noted that Redbull is starting to literally give tickets away, which could mean either they haven't been selling the event well, or they're looking to fill out as much of the arena that's left over as possible. Likely the latter. Also, I heard via Derby Deeds that Suzy Hotrod is not actually moving to Philly. This was apparently a rumor from the start that was assumed to be true by all who heard it (like DNN). Personally, I'm not 100% sure if she's staying or going either way, so I'm just going to wait to verify it personally when Gotham comes to LA to play the Derby Dolls on the banked track in February. Yes! Gotham on the banked track. We're very spoiled here in Los Angeles.
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Dec 11, 2010 02:27
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I've got a derby skating update of my own to throw in. The Sugartown Rollergirls in Oxnard, CA are just about done getting their banked track together. After the OC Rollergirls finish their track next year, there will be four banked track leagues in the Southern California area. Envy us. What's more, Sugartown is starting to recruit man-skaters. This means that they'll have the first and only men's banked track league in the world. Naturally, I jumped at the opportunity and will start training with them in January. I am literally besides myself with aniticipation. The tricky thing for me, as I've been finding out, is that although I'm more than comfortable on inline skates I haven't skated on quads for almost 20 years (I'm 28 now) so I'm having trouble getting my footing on them. I only got some quads last week and will only will get the chance to really start practicing on them this weekend, but I'm wondering if anyone was raised on ice skates/inline skates and had to deal with a similar transition. My best friend has been training with Sugartown since November and said she got used to the quads before she knew it, but I still don't know what to expect as I adjust.
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Dec 23, 2010 20:56
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First post updated about Team Legit vs. LA Derby Dolls. Also, Sugartown is finishing the build of our banked track:  We have both straights up, and we're hoping to start get the turns done by this weekend. The masonite and the painting and the padding will hopefully come after that, and by the end of the month we're going to have a brand spankin' new banked track to skate on. Although, as made apparent in the picture above, we've barely got enough room in our warehouse space to fit it in kitty-corner, meaning the insides of the ends of the straights will have a very dangerous post guarding them. Should make for some interesting practices.
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Jan 14, 2011 07:21
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First post updated again. Minnesota is shooting for a derby attendance record this weekend (although I think they're "cheating" to do it), and Wild West Showdown has announced its schedule for March. I also have an update about our banked track. It turns out that we weren't able to fit the whole thing in our warehouse space. We cut out two sections of the straightaway to squeeze it in there, so at least for now we're going to have something more like a bullring. At least we were able to fit it in around the posts so we won't have to deal with a face full of a steel pole heading into the turns. Should be wicked fun to skate on, though. ed-Almost forgot. Jam City Rollergirls, the roller derby video game, is being released today. It's a downloadble game on the Wii and it's $10. WindyMan fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jan 24, 2011 |
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Jan 24, 2011 20:42
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Totally TWISTED posted:How are they "cheating"? I say this in jest. They're hoping for a holdover crowd from the lacrosse game, which has a regular attendance of over 9,000. It'll be cool, regardless.
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Jan 24, 2011 23:13
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scorpiobean posted:Gotham and the LA Derby Dolls It will be streaming live. LA produces and webcasts all of their own games and DNN just carries them through their website and occasionally adds the textcast on their own. They're high-quality streams, too. Of the streams I'm aware of, only Rose City's streams are comparable in terms of video quality, and Gotham's in terms of production. You get both in LA. Admittedly the biggest reason why I'm pumped for this game is more to see what Gotham will do on banked track more than whether or not LA will beat them or not. Going by the Legit game LA's all-star roster is weaker than it has been in years past, but then again they only were thrown together a few weeks before the game and didn't get much practice in. Still, Gotham is a team force to be reckoned with. If they can get comfortable on the banked surface, watch out. And speaking of that, recent history proves that flat track teams playing on the banked track for the first time get off to a slow start and then fare better in the second half after they adjust to the surface and faster game. Which has got me thinking...when Rocky Mountain plays San Diego, they'll get a practice game the day before in LA first to sort that out. Rocky Mountain/San Diego, game of the year? Hmmm....
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Jan 25, 2011 21:50
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Redfont posted:Just out of curiosity, might I ask what sort of things there are that skaters aren't supposed to be learning? Sort of vaguely in general, I'd imagine. Oddly enough, they shouldn't be learning how to walk, run, or jump (without skates on). Our coach at Sugartown is a professional skater--he skated on Rollerjam, did skate-stunts in movies and commercials and has a coach chararacter in Whip It based on him--and he says that how we move without skates on is completely counter-intuitive to how we need to move with skates on. Long story short, everything you do during training or not should be done with skates on, if you can help it.
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Feb 2, 2011 20:33
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Spookydonut posted:You're also questioning the decision of the tournament head refs in rostering him for that game. If they didn't think it would be an issue, they wouldn't have rostered him for that game. You are making the assumption that the WFTDA knew about their personal relationship. When skaters and refs alike use their skate names, the person assigning refs to games is more than likely not going to know all the details of relations between skaters or refs or NSOs. They just connect the dots to make sure games are staffed. At least, that's my assumption of how it works. If anything, they would have known that ref and skater would have been from the same league. While this alone is very unlikely to cause a problem or conflict... quote:If you ask WFTDA about this, I guarentee they'll stand by the decision of the tournament head refs. Of course they will. But you're missing the point entirely. Referees in any sport, by their definition, must be neutral. This applies in the "call 'em as you see 'em" sense as well as an individual's associations or actions outside of games they call. Remember Tim Donaghy? He was the NBA official that got caught in a gambling scandal. Long story short, he tried to alter the outcome of games to the benefit of gamblers by not calling them fairly. Obviously, that's a huge conflict of interest. NBA refs are perceived as a shady bunch to begin with, but that just blew the whole thing up. I bring him up as an extreme example. Obviously, what this guy was doing was bad for officiating and made the league look bad. But where do you draw the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior by a ref? -A ref who is affiliated with a gambling ring may try to change the outcome to his favor. -A ref who would benefit from one team winning over another may try to change the outcome. -A ref who knows someone that would benefit from one team winning over another may try to change the outcome. -A ref who knows someone on a team that would benefit from one team winning over another may try to change the outcome. Feel free to fill in other shades of grey between those examples, but surely you can understand why any of those above would be bad for the ref and the league that ref works for. If you can't, where do you draw the line and why would one situation not be worse than the other? Going back to the "Refgate" incident at Champs, that ref may have well called a perfect game, made no mistakes, and not done anything to compromise his neutrality. Great, good for him. But that's still not the point. The point is that other people outside of the derby circle who found that out may think, "hey, that ref and that skater are related. Maybe that ref gave that skater a break with calls?" The "maybe" plants the seed that says that perhaps, just maybe, the officiating isn't 100% fair because of that. From the perspective of an outside viewer, just that they are related could put a 0.01% amount of doubt into their head, and 99.99% fair isn't 100% fair. Just the fact that people are talking about it at all is proof enough to raise doubt. The only way to prevent this doubt from cropping up in the first place is to prevent it from happening in the future. And if you want to go even further, you can make sure absoultely sure it won't be an issue in this year's Championships (and regionals too, if possible) that all the refs/NSOs from a league can't staff a game that has their team in it, or to pick them last if no other are available. Surely there are enough refs around to ensure that. fake edit: Plus what Dominion said. WindyMan fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 20:44
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Dominion posted:I get that at home bouts, normal travel bouts, and maybe even at regionals you might simply not have enough refs to go around to make sure no one refs their own team, but nationals didn't have that excuse. This is the other side of the argument. Refs who call games for their home league, as neutral as they are, still have at least some connection to their home league. They do games between two local home teams, and by doing a good job they are helping their league, which is ultimately beneficial to everyone involved. (This still doesn't change the fact that if a league ref has a relationship with someone on one of a league's local teams, that ref shouldn't call games featuring that team, if at all possible, to ensure fairness and transparency for all involved.) Although refs are good at being neutral, when it comes to a national tournament or league, there needs to be zero chance at someone calling out a conflict of interest. Refs for the pro sports leagues are contracted part-timers (NFL) or separetely unionized (NHL, MLB) so they have no reason to side with any team, just do the best job they can to keep it fair. Because derby is still a regional game, you're going to get minor conflicts like Refgate, but they can be addressed by changing policies in the future.
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Feb 3, 2011 21:09
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Right, naturally no one is paying off a roller derby ref. But the point I made there was if there is any kind of connection between a referee and a player, an outsider could state that maybe that ref is trying to change the game in favor of that player (regardless of the reason) because of their connection. It's understandably not that big of a deal since everything is volunteer-run and it's still a grassroots sport, roller derby. But Dominion summed it up perfectly: Dominion posted:The rules of the game need to be clear, understandable, and shown to be enforced and handled fairly and without bias whenever possible. Removal of the doubt is an important part of that, and it leads to the fanbase taking the game more seriously. It is what turns games into sports. Derby is eventually going to cross that bridge. So why not do something about it now?
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Feb 3, 2011 21:34
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Bananananana posted:Woah this is a neat thread, I had always thought roller derby was like pro wrestling and it was all corny acting. Something that's always bothered me though is why roller derby players use roller skates instead of inline skates, they seem so clunky and unmaneuverable. I'm assuming inline skates are against the rules, but why? They seem so much more fun. Anyone who grows up roller skating generally does it on quad skates, so for consistency and fairness they're mandated as the only type of skate derby players play on nowadays. Although I agree with you that inlines are better than quads. I've skated on inlines for years and only recently got quads because I need to learn how to use them for playing derby. I've always wondered why they just don't let people use whatever skates they want to, as long as they're safe to use.
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Feb 3, 2011 22:53
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OrpheusFaust posted:In response to an earlier question of why quads over inlines, I've heard it's because it is much easier to snap your ankle in inlines, especially with tight pack work. That's ridiculous. You're just as safe/in danger on inlines than you are on quads. While quads may give you more stability on your feet in some respects, inlines are more stable in others, such as when turning or stopping. In fact, inline skates generally have a boot that's harder and goes higher up the ankles, so if anything you're more protected from ankle injuries. For someone that's spent years on inlines I see no merit in what you've heard. OrpheusFaust posted:Personally I prefer quads. Can't do my fancy turn around toe stop stop on inlines The turn-around toe stop is a very bad way to learn how to stop, in my opinion. First of all, it assumes you have toe stops on in the first place, which are crutches that inexperienced skaters rely on to accelerate and slow down. Secondly, if you're in the middle of a pack and you need to come a dead stop in a hurry, do you really want to turn your back to do it? You really should learn how to do a hockey stop. Yes, you can do them on quads. They stop you instantly and let you change direction in a flash. Although, you need to be seriously good at skating before you can do them since doing them wrong or doing them while inexperienced will not go well. Hence me typing this with a limp and an ice pack around my left knee.
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Feb 6, 2011 17:30
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Dominion posted:Absolutely. I do the same, and my girlfriend has a similar struggle, being a home-league caliber player who is in a city/league very focused on travel team and national ranking type things. This is a good example of the structural problems roller derby is going to face in the next few years. If you think of popular team sports, they exist on many different levels, like recreational, amateur, professional, etc. Even within them there are other sub-levels, as it were. Like, if you wanted to play basketball you just need a park court and some friends to play pick-up games, or you could go to your local Park&Rec and join a rec league. Roller derby currently only exists in the amateur state. Obviously, there isn't currently a professional option (although people are working on that) and there isn't a recreational option for people to turn to, for the most part. I know the LA Derby Dolls have a rec league, but those are only for people who pass the 8-week training classes. If roller derby is going to be big again, there needs to be options available on every rung of the ladder. If you focus too much on the top level, the lower levels become neglected and you lose out on new, experienced skaters coming in or sticking around for the long haul.
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Feb 16, 2011 21:52
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Ria posted:I mean, I don't even know how that'd work, if they're trying to become more "like all the rest of the sports, WE GOTTA B SUPR SRS, U GUYZ," then getting rid of minors? The accumulation of minors is just "well, we can't get you on a major but since you keep doing them we might as well call you on them in aggregate the same way we would if you acted once at a higher severity." In old-school roller derby, they also had major and minor penalties. Yes, they did call penalties back then, but they were less frequent and more severe. Major penalties were 2 minutes and minor penalties were 1 minute, and considering jams lasted for 60 seconds, penalties became more significant. This is, of course, relative to the time they were out there on the track, not the actual result on the track. Although I absolutely love the fact that skaters get whistled off of the track immediately for major penalties—this is one of the disadvantages of banked track derby—I think the fact that so many penalties are called on the flat track speaks to the inexperience of skaters than anything else. I like how the WFTDA went from 5 penalties per half to 7 per game for a penalty ejection, because no one likes to see sloppy roller derby. I think if minors were going to be taken out, it should be a no harm-no foul situation. For instance, if someone commits a minor back block, if the person in front doesn't get knocked down or lose position, and the person behind does't gain an advantage, then why should it a penalty at all?
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Feb 18, 2011 20:05
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Hey derby peeps, don't forget about the big game Saturday night!! http://www.derbynewsnetwork.com/2011/02/its_east_vs_west_flat_vs_banked_gotham_takes_bank_against_ladd
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Feb 25, 2011 20:45
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First post updated. March will be busy, with Wild West Showdown starting this weekend, March Radness and the special LA/SD game on the banked track also this Saturday, a bunch of WFTDA games sprinkled all around, and then the big one to cap off the month: Rocky Mountain on the banked track. I hope some of you caught the LA/Gotham game, because it was fantastic. It was definitely in the top three games I've seen on the banked track. Bonnie Thunders can skate, that's for drat sure. If you missed her last weekend, you'll probably get another chance on Saturday since the LADD/SDDD exhibition game will feature about six or eight guest skaters from other leagues, who are attending LA's March Radness training camp. No one will know who those skaters will be until the game gets going, but they'll be good skaters worth seeing on the bank.
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Mar 3, 2011 19:50
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Redfont posted:It seems like the more you play and the more serious you get about wanting to play, the less fun it gets. People suddenly become very concerned with winning and losing and doing things right or wrong, and it's... just not as fun anymore. I eventually ended up quitting because of it. Shooting at people stopped being fun. This is true for anything competitive, not just paintball or roller derby. And because of that, eventually there will be separation with players/leagues who want to do more and win more, instead of just play roller derby and have fun. That's what I was talking about in one of my earlier posts, the differences between recreational, amateur, and professional players. If you start to get a situation where the derby stops being "fun," then you may be reaching a point where the time and effort required to stay involved with the sport is becoming too great to stay with the group that you're playing derby with. If this were any other sport, you could step down a ladder on the rung and just play it recreationally, but that goes back to the problem I mentioned earlier. There's only one level right now, and you're either in it, or you're not. Really good players can't go up a level, and the not so good ones can't go down a level. Everyone is lumped together, and the drawback to that is you can't cater to everyone equally. You're either going to keep back the good skaters so it's fair to the bad ones (relative term), or you're going to leave the bad skaters behind to cater to the good ones.
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Mar 3, 2011 22:11
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Hopefully this doesn't become the case with roller derby.
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Aericina posted:I caught this video this morning, and what a great way to stop the idiotic dancing at the line after the jam whistle blows. I wonder why more teams don't try flooring skaters that start a jam on a knee. The second their knee leaves the ground they should be fair game for a hit, no? That they're starting a jam off-balance and in a vulnerable position should be something the other team should exploit. But I still hate slow starts.
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Mar 8, 2011 17:43
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Spookydonut posted:You should at least try to understand slow starts instead of just blindly hating them. I've iterated this in the thread previously. I understand why there are slow starts. I understand that a shorthanded team wants to try to burn clock in an attempt to get their penalized skaters out of the box. I understand why skaters take a knee before the pivot whistle so they can force an immediate jammer start. I understand why teams are reluctant to charge to the front of the pack, because they want to control the rear of the pack to ensure they're not caught out at the wrong side of a split no-pack situation. I understand all of those things, and that is exactly why I hate slow starts. I don't have a problem with "slow derby," in that if blockers from one team has full control pack, they should get to dictate the speed of the pack and the blockers in it. If the team in control wants things slow, that's in their power to do so for being in an advantageous position. That's not slow derby, that's good derby. This is not the case during the start. Consider a team that has a 4-2 pack advantage. During a jam, it would be relatively easy for them to speed up or slow down the overall pace of the pack due to their superior numbers. They should also be able to position their players within the pack pretty much wherever they want. It makes sense, therefore, that the team with the superior numbers has a much easier time of doing what they want to do. At the start for jam, however, there's nothing they can do that won't give the short-handed team an advantage of some kind, thereby creating a situation where their superior numbers puts them at a disadvantage. To make a point, instead of describing hypothetical scenarios, I want to ask the thread: What should a team with four blockers do at the start of a jam against a team with two blockers, when the team with four blockers: 1) Wants the jam to start immediately (because it is an advantage to the shorthanded team if they burned penalty time before the jammer start), 2) Wants to immediately dictate the speed of the pack, in the same way a team with a 4-2 pack advantage should be able to do quite easily while they are rolling during a jam (because it would be an advantage to the shorthanded team if they controlled whether or not the pack was moving or stopping or fast or slow), 3) Wants to position their skaters within the pack mostly wherever they want, as a team with a 4-2 pack advantage should be able to do pretty easily (because it would be an advantage to the shorthanded team if they were able to get the positioning they wanted despite their inferior numbers), and 4) Will do no action that will provide the shorthanded team with any advantage whatsoever? I'm genuinely curious to hear your solutions and justification for them. WindyMan fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Mar 9, 2011 |
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Mar 9, 2011 06:49
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Spookydonut posted:This can be done by some strategic positioning and movement, at least in my mind. I'm looking for specific strategic positioning and movement. But I'm confident no one will be able to find anything that doesn't hurt the team with four blockers. If you're saying all the full team has to do is points 2-4 to avoid 1, you're forgetting that all the team with two skaters has to do is not move at the start, which will prevent the pack from moving, thereby enabling them to burn penalty time and control the speed of the pack. Advantage: shorthanded team. WindyMan fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Mar 9, 2011 |
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Mar 9, 2011 16:28
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OrpheusFaust posted:You're forgetting that the other four blockers can move forward, which I believe would mean they are setting the pace of the pack but I'm not exactly sure. They keep moving forward until they get a no pack situation from the refs, which forces the other team to move forward. What if the four-blocker team wants to control the rear of the pack? That's a very important place to be at the start of a jam, you know. Mr. Powers posted:So, based on my reading, one team could jump ahead of the pivot line ten feet to destroy the pack, thus starting the jammers, then immediately stop and back up a little. Backing up would reform the pack and avoid penalties for not immediately attempting to reform the pack. I used the 4-2 pack scenario for a reason. WFTDA rules define the pack as the largest group of blockers that is made up of skaters from both teams. If one, two or even three skaters from the four-blocker team takes off, it's not going to matter because as long as the two-blocker team stays still, there's nothing the four-blocker team can do to move them unless the force a no-pack situation by putting all four skaters forward. But to do that, as I asked above, what if the four-blocker team wants to control the rear of the pack? In addition to forcing the jam to start immediately, and to make the pack go at the speed they want it to go? As the team with the superior advantage, they should be well within their rights to do all of those things, don't you think?
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Mar 10, 2011 04:42
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Aericina posted:If the team with four blockers wants to control the rear of the pack in addition to starting the jam immediately, they can scoot off the pivot line and take their knee before the whistle, therefore forcing a no-pack and keeping themselves within distance of where they want to be in the pack. That is assuming the team with two blockers doesn't catch on and move back or can force the other team to not make it on their knee on time. That's a pretty big assumption. But even so, let me throw a wrinkle into it. Imagine the team with 4 blockers has their jammer in the penalty box, so the shorthanded team has a power jam. It's in the best interest of the shorthanded to start their jammer off immediately, so they'd be able to take a knee to start to force it. It would be in the four-blockers team's best interest to speed up the pack to get away from the other team's jammer. Question: How do you do that without creating a pack advantage for the shorthanded team, or worse, create a no-pack scenario that would give the shorthanded team's jammer a free pass? Don't you think a four blocker team with only two blockers to deal with, would be able to shut down the power jam with a combination of pack speed control and superior numbers? Important: Logically, a team's jammer being in the penalty box should not diminish any advantage (4-3 or 4-2) they may have in a pack, and therefore their control over that pack. A jammer penalty should only remove a team's ability to score points, and not necessarily give the other jammer a free pass (because they still need to deal with the blockers on the other team).
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Mar 11, 2011 02:00
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