Canadian internet access gets shittier

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > Canadian internet access gets shittier

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

ToxicFrog posted:

E: these commands successfully put the modem in bridge mode and everything is much better now.

You're welcome.

That was a weeks worth of mucking through the firmware source and every foreign language forum that dealt with similar modems to figure out. Luckly I've been home with a wicked cold and nothing much else to do.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2013 00:46

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 17:32

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

8ender posted:

You are correct but Bell mandates these turds for anyone using the higher speed dsl, even the third parties.

Unfortunately some of Bell's FTTN nodes are pre-final VDSL spec, they use some custom firmware hacks to get a decent sync rate out of the modems. If you're on a "stinger" DSLAM you have to use Bell's Cellpipe or Sagemcom modems to get the proper sync rates for the VDSL profiles. The newer 7330 DSLAMs don't have this issue and any VDSL2 capable modem can be used.

Of course the stinger units were the first wave of Bell's fibe roll out so they're still relatively new, odds are they won't be replaced anytime soon.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2013 07:28

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Sprawl posted:

... fire to the home Internet.

That sounds dangerous.

# ¿ Apr 16, 2013 02:55

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

No problem. I just got the 50/10 VDSL service from Teksavvy a couple weeks ago, the Sagemcom was driving me up the wall with the sync-no-surf thing.

A few people on DSLr are still looking into alternative modems. There are some that will work on the Stinger DSLAMs (anything with an Ikanos chipset) but without the Bell modded firmware they're stuck with only about 60% of the normal upload rate. Of course if you're on a 7330 DSLAM you can use pretty much any VDSL2 modem you can find (there aren't many so far).

# ¿ Apr 18, 2013 05:04

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Any 50/50 service is probably FTTH so you only have the one lovely modem to worry about. And the Sagemcom can be put into bridge mode for FTTH too.

I think if you have fibre service you can actually just hook up your router directly to the FTTH CPE box, as long as you have a router that supports VLAN tagging on the WAN port (any DD-WRT/Open-WRT/Tomato capable router).

Of course if you want to use Bell's Fibe TV service too you can't do any of this.

# ¿ Apr 18, 2013 23:33

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Well, there's not really a lot of messing around you have to do. Right now Bell mandates that all customers rent one of their VDSL modems, they only offer the Sagemcom 2864. There are some intermittent issues with the Sagemcom modem but if you just hook it up and don't touch anything else it'll generally work.

Things only start getting complicated if you want to use your own modem/router.

# ¿ Apr 19, 2013 19:32

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Backov posted:

Is there any firmware fuckery I can do to this thing to make it not suck quite so much?

You could try putting the modem into bridge mode using the instructions here: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r28203965-DSL-Sagemcom-F-ST-2864-bridge-mode-guide You'll need to have a router to handle the connection once you do that though.

Running the modem in bridge mode often resolves the sync-no-surf issue you're describing. It's not perfect though and some people report that they still run into the problem, albeit less frequently.

# ¿ May 14, 2013 22:38

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Stanley Pain posted:

Sounds close to the issue I had. Pretty sure it's Bell loving something up on their end where you'll just start getting rolling disconnects.

It's worth checking, but the Sagemcom has a known issue where it will cease creating new connections when there are a (somewhat) large number of active connections (e.g. bittorrent). If the existing streaming connections aren't dropping then it's definitely not a line sync issue. Google "Sagemcom 2864 sync no surf" to see what I mean.

# ¿ May 17, 2013 01:07

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Teksavvy has broken my internet in an exciting new way. I have the 50/10 VDSL service, since Monday despite the modem syncing at 50/8 I've been unable to get speeds better than 11Mbps down. The speedtest.teksavvy.com site shows 5Mbit down.

About a dozen people in my area of Toronto have been complaining about the problem for the last week (on DSL Reports). Teksavvy went from denying the problem existed to saying "our NOC team is looking into it", for a week apparently. No updates, no further acknowledgement of the issue.

The best part is, a number of users tried reverting their modems to the built in credentials that are used by the Bell installers to activate the service, and what do you know? The problem disappears. To top it of there are a couple of new hops on the network that weren't there last week, but somehow these were not the first thing they started to investigate when the issue showed up, they just tried to blame the users and denied that there could be a problem like the one we described.

Honestly, this is why I've stopped recommending Teksavvy to my clients. I've run into a number of issues like this, where they just deny the problem exists or try to pass the blame to Bell or Rogers.

# ¿ Jun 14, 2013 00:17

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Teksavvy update, we've now moved on to the "it's a Bell equipment problem" phase of the troubleshooting. There's been a ticket open with Bell for four days now, somehow Parkdale and random chunks of nearby areas (only using Teksavvy, of course) are still experiencing the same problem, with no resolution time line from Bell. They replaced the supposedly faulty hardware, but it didn't fix anything, now they need to "run a script" to fix it but they can't, because of magic or something.

The weird thing is I've been using Teksavvy since about 2005, I can't remember Bell (or Rogers) ever having so much negative impact on their network until the last couple of years.

I've been moving my clients to a little three man operation out of Port Credit because they're somehow able to offer better service and much faster issue resolution than Teksavvy. If they offered home service I'd switch myself.

It seems Canadian internet access is indeed getting shittier.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2013 02:27

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

What version of the firmware do you have? You can see it in the About page.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2013 04:50

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

That's the same version I've had since April. Maybe they changed your DSL profile to interleaved? That's what most people do to work around sync-no-surf. It adds about 11ms of latency to the first network hop though.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2013 22:48

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

rhag posted:

... I have an OpenBSD Pentium 4 in the basement acting as a gateway (for some reason that is really strange to support guys, do people actually use those best buy routers and put them besides some computer in the house????). I just ssh into it and do anything that I would want.

I can set my MAC to anything that I want, but I hardly believe that's remotely advisable (unless you know a safe range). You can get into some weird networks (certainly not the one you're supposed to be into).

Three things:

1) If you're going for sperg cred why not just get one of these and save the power draw from the least power efficient CPU on the planet?
2) You do realize that consumer routers have allowed free form MAC spoofing for literally more than a decade right? Hell, you can use any WRT based firmware and get SSH too, again without paying for 200+watt continuous draw just to route packets.
3) Regarding that last one, please, do tell.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2013 05:41

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

rhag posted:

I have my P4 because i bought it a decade ago and I just dont wanna throw it away. Why do I have a computer instead of a router? Http , mail, database, various programs that i wrote myself are running on that. I heard some linksys routers can run some heavily modified version of linux, but i never tried them. The flexibility a pc provides is way too tempting. I am writing my own poo poo on my own desktop pc, uploading it to the basement and it just works. What's not to love? Why would I wanna change that?

You can cross compile for the ARM/MIPS environments that the Linksys/Buffalo/ASUS routers use and run your own stuff on an embedded device that already runs a Linux kernel with a busybox shell. If you're writing open source with standard libraries there's nothing stopping you unless you need proprietary binary blobs for something. But yes, as long as your time and the electricity you use has no cost, sure, why not. Just as long as you don't marvel about how people actually use those best buy routers and put them besides some computer in the house.

rhag posted:

In what way? Any cpu made in the last 6 years would be faster than an old p4, but ... what would i need it for? To provide routing packets to the 10 ips in the network? The mail, http, etc. traffic that i get is not that demanding any way you slice it. My programs at mostly do some traffic counting and monitoring, nothing too much. Why would I spend 100$ when I can spend 0$? What would a new cpu provide that i dont already have (and I would need)?

So, you don't actually need a P4 either, and the cost savings in power would offset the one time cost of a WRT compatible router in less than a year.

I'm still curious about the networks you got into by spoofing your MAC though.

infernal machines fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Jul 27, 2013

# ¿ Jul 27, 2013 06:51

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

rhag posted:

...For now, that's all that I need.

About my MAC spoofing..I didnt get anywhere, it was a lovely provisioning by the ISP. Why am I on CIK Telecom? your guess is as good as mine. I cant wait for them to fix it though.

Fair enough. I was just saying it doesn't make any kind of sense in any scenario other than "because I want to".

Regarding the CIK thing, that's probably an upstream issue, your router/PC's MAC isn't likely to make a difference as far as your ISP's DHCP server is concerned unless it's already registered elsewhere (actually, this may have happened, check for packet loss). I had the same kind of performance drop with an unaffected upload on Teksavvy DSL, apparently caused by a faulty fibre interconnect at the Bell node for my neighbourhood.

edit:

rhag posted:

...I have an UPS in the basement that reports a grand total of 60KWh for everything thats in there (a switch, a wireless thingy, a NAS with 2 HDDs, etc.)

Holy poo poo. That seems a bit high...

infernal machines fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Jul 27, 2013

# ¿ Jul 27, 2013 07:48

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

There are a lot of good, robust, consumer grade solutions that offer monitoring and QOS and filtering without having to reinvent the wheel. If you prefer to roll your own that's cool, but why be smug about it? There are better options these days, you just have to do a bit of research.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2013 08:24

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Smug?

rhag posted:

(for some reason that is really strange to support guys, do people actually use those best buy routers and put them besides some computer in the house????)

rhag posted:

I see in my neighborhood dozens of wifi networks, secured by bell, dlink or linksys, surely in their default configuration. Why would anyone do this is beyond me, but as you said, maybe some people dont wanna teach themselves a terribly documented OS.

Sorry, I obviously took that too far. I appologize, and I'll drop the point.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2013 08:59

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Nitr0 posted:

lol.

My time is just worth more than the petty crap people do to get a small refund.

Yes if I signed up and it was a month and never got service I would ask for all the money to be refunded and go to a different provider. It's the small outages that causes all the bitching and moaning that gets me.

I suppose it depends on what you define as small, reasonable, etc.

There is a certain school of thought that suggests that if you can't offer a service reliably, even if it's due to factors outside of your control, perhaps you shouldn't offer it at all.

If you do, at least put up a very large disclaimer for the customer stating that you have no control over the network between you and the customer and that there is no guarantee that the service will work in any particular capacity. And, of course, charge appropriately.

Teksavvy had amazing support and resolution times for years. That all went out the window about two years ago, for whatever reason. While their communication through the DSL Reports forum is excellent, it's not great that you have to go there and kick up a fuss to get an issue looked in to. Their phone support is useless and issues in the direct forum are often brushed off until a public thread appears with numerous people complaining about the same issue.

# ¿ Aug 21, 2013 02:13

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Just cancelled my Rogers and signed up with Tekksavvy a week ago - cable 45/4 plan. Are the majority of outages happening on the DSL service, cable or both? A little concerned now.

I don't think it's that bad really, but there have been ton of cable outages, in various regions, reported over the past couple weeks. It looks like they're being resolved within a day or so though.

Have a look here to get a better idea of what's going on.

Stuff like this has been happening fairly regularly since the ATPIA migration began, they're dealing with the issues but it's not quick.

infernal machines fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Aug 21, 2013

# ¿ Aug 21, 2013 16:13

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

teethgrinder posted:

Nice ... will try it immediately.

Out of curiosity, how do I know which "POI" I'm on with TekSavvy anyway?

You can use this as a rough guide, it's not terribly accurate due to the way Rogers has structured their network.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2013 15:41

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

That's a re-seller's flyer but the meme-macro campaign is from Bell. There are at least two others in that campaign, they've had posters up in a local bar washroom since the end of August. Even without the re-seller markup the prices are terrible.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2013 01:13

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

teethgrinder posted:

Woke up to Teksavvy Cable dead as a door nail. Not much on their Twitter stream. Who wants to bet they/Rogers disconnected me early? The service was supposed to be ended October 8, switching to fibre on the 6th.

They've had some pretty big outages in Toronto as of yesterday, depending on where you are it might be related.

See:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r28681195-Outages-Outage-Report-Cable-DSL-09-23-2013-7-38PM
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r28679631-Outages-Outage-Report-September-23rd-2013-2-05PM

# ¿ Sep 24, 2013 17:07

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Chris Knight posted:

gg, TekSavyy, now I have to have 3 separate logins for your site.

I was already signed up for this, but since the relaunch I've had to re-register my account. I have no idea what they're doing with the constant customer portal rebuilds.

Regarding start.ca, I just got my girlfriend set up with their 25/2 cable service, using an old SB6120 I had used with Teksavvy a couple years ago. They managed to correctly activate the modem and the tech showed up on schedule. It was amazing.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2014 22:00

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Chris Knight posted:

Fibe is not FTTH.

Sometimes it is, it's all branded Fibe whether it's FTTH or FTTN here in Ontario.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 03:05

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

I just switched from Teksavvy's 50/10 DSL to the 150/15 cable. Activation went perfectly and the service is goddamn fast.

This is the second time I've done cable service with Teksavvy, the first being their initial 15/1 cable option a few years ago. Both times I've has no problem with the activation.

Now to see how it holds up during peak hours. My neighbourhood just got several new HFC nodes so I'm cautiously optimistic.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2014 17:19

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

flakeloaf posted:

No, it's just not hard to explain this particular turd in a much larger pool of sewage.

Someone needs to update the thread title

# ¿ Jul 22, 2014 12:30

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

less than three posted:

TELUS is still in the game thanks to VDSL, but the newer 50mb+ packages require two copper runs per dwelling, so if you're living somewhere old (or new and cut corners) it's a pain to get service.

Is Telus only offering those packages if pair bonding is available? Here in Ontario Bell is still only using a single pair AFAIK, most areas get 15 or 25Mbps service only, but if you're in a higher density area you can get 50Mbps VDSL2 off a single pair.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2014 15:49

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

It also refers to the hybrid fibre coax nodes they use. Basically it's fibre to your neighbourhood node, then coax cable to the demarc.

Right now the independents do have access to it. I have a 150/15 package from Teksavvy that uses an HFC node.

# ¿ Oct 16, 2014 18:34

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Migishu posted:

I kinda wished I lived in Toronto now, because goddamn those prices are insane (100mbps d/u for $45/m, 250mbps for $75)

500mbps for $200 seems a bit... odd...

You'd also have to live in a lovely condo that costs $375k+ to get those speeds.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 18:37

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

You were expecting them to pull fibre to your house?

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 18:46

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Zigmidge posted:

Fibre isn't the only option anymore, so no.

Well then good news!

You can get reasonably good speeds through a Rogers or a TPIA provider like Teksavvy. Up to 150/15 is available in many Toronto neighborhoods.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 18:55

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

37th Chamber posted:

As far as I know, all 150Mbps packages aren't being sold by TPIA (I know TekSavvy isn't for sure) in Rogers territories until 24 channel cable modems are certified/being sold.

They've been taken down at the moment but they were sold through TPIA for at least six months now. They don't actually require the 24 channel DOCSIS 3 modems to work, but Rogers is refusing new activations without them.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 23:13

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

This is a continuation of a conversation from another thread, I'm moving it here because it was getting to be a tedious derail there and it's far more appropriate in here.

Basically, for anyone considering switching to Teksavvy cable internet service in an area serviced by Rogers cable, don't (for now).

Marc Gaudrault, CEO of Teksavvy posted:

There continues to be an underlying capacity issue that we are trying to rectify, related to provisioning timing and volume, but it has cascaded into a whole new challenge that we are now working on. Additional capacity we have been adding has been chewed up instantly. The cold weather has led to a shift of user behaviour that has put additional pressure on that capacity provisioning issue, and we have not been able to respond as quickly as we would like to. Part of the provisioning challenge is this. There is still a hard division between different sides of the provisioning equation so that in practice, even where you have multiple spare links pre-provisioned and waiting on the side lines, turning them up is still a separate matter. Essentially these are stresses along the fault lines on where some of the existing rules simply don�t scale well. For instance, right now there are CRTC-approved max timelines/guidelines for some processes, but there isn�t any incentive for trading partners to move more quickly than the max timeline, so the maxes end up looking a lot like minimums instead.

Some have raised the dis-agg versus APOI issue, and as you know this is a separate issue that we have been pretty vocal about. By way of background, back in 2009-10 we asked the CRTC to have both models on both the cable and DSL sides. The aggregated model lets new competitors enter the market, the dis-agg gives us back more control over the network and lets us fix a lot of these issues ourselves (more granular control for example). Back then, the CRTC decided to go one way only, aggregated. We have been asking for the same thing in the CRTC wireline proceeding that I was at last week � leave aggregated but add dis-aggregated so that we can address issues along these fault lines as we scale � and we will simply have to see where the CRTC lands.

TL;DR: Their APOI links are over saturated (i.e. they've way oversold the network), they are aware of this and several of the NOC staff have chimed in to corroborate this. For various reasons they can't bring new capacity online reactively enough to address the issue. This is a known problem and one they cannot at the moment properly address, so for the foreseeable future rCable service from TSI is going to be a crapshoot and will have performance issue during peak hours (sometimes big ones).

infernal machines fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Dec 14, 2014

# ¿ Dec 14, 2014 23:48

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

At least you're not running off some shared LOS microwave system located on top of someone's grain silo.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2014 08:04

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Content providers still don't understand the internet, news at 11.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2015 01:36

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Zigmidge posted:

How do you even stop vpn traffic without loving around with people's actual roaming?

Block the netblocks registered to known VPN providers?

# ¿ Jan 7, 2015 21:00

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

mewse posted:

Splice CAT5??

Terminate

# ¿ Jan 17, 2015 08:19

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Frankly, in Ontario at least Teksavvy's service (both the actual internet service and the support provided for it) has not been that great for some time.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2015 08:01

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

That's for a business connection with an SLA, a semi-guaranteed MTTR and unlimited data, so yeah that pricing isn't particularly unreasonable at all.

Even for 10Mbit you're not likely to get a business class service for under $350/mo.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2015 04:39

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 17:32

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

There aren't any, presumably because they don't feel there's a sufficient ROI. Basically if you want fibre it's a business class service.

Hell, even here in Toronto there's only a dozen blocks or so in very high density new condo developments that have FTTH. It's relatively expensive to build and 99% of consumers are just going to compare the price to whatever DSL or Cable service they have now, practically speaking no one cares about symmetrical connections for home use.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2015 16:02

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