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Booty Pageant
Apr 20, 2012
can sakamoto be considered modern classic?? i feel like this is the closest thread to post about his recent and probably last work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYYTWeRhI5U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHyvqLhbjf8
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lW2OUA7SCGY2otEstz0ul1JDoj-ldpHuc

e:
also i wonder how izumi tateno doing these days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOKhZZ_ugkA

Booty Pageant fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Jan 18, 2023

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Buttchocks
Oct 21, 2020

No, I like my hat, thanks.
This is a fun piece. Those sideburns are actually a listed requirement in the score. It's part of the music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VqMyqGNrNw

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
dead thread

I love Janacek so goddamn much, I'm probably going to take the plunge into his operas when I have the time. nobody on earth sounds like mature janacek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV6GI3ROj8c


also he's not the most fashionable guy to like but anyone else like Strauss? I never liked his tone poems but I got hooked on his operas recently and the orchestration in Frau Ohne Schatten is just astonishing

webcams for christ
Nov 2, 2005
I played Příhody lišky Bystroušky a couple seasons ago and recently did a run of Rosenkav. both were absolute highlights

What took Rosenkavalier from quite good to Masterwork for me was getting better acquainted with Hofmannsthal's libretto and realizing how deeply ironic much of the opera is, in a very funny, very mean way. It's such a staple of the Grand Opera canon that I find it often loses it's teeth to opulent productions. As with all of his recordings, Carlos Kleiber's stands out as one of the best in my opinion.

The Wiggly Wizard
Aug 21, 2008


Feels Villeneuve posted:

also he's not the most fashionable guy to like but anyone else like Strauss? I never liked his tone poems but I got hooked on his operas recently and the orchestration in Frau Ohne Schatten is just astonishing

I've never heard of Richard Strauss haters. He wrote some badass double bass lines that show up on excerpt lists frequently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr4T2d7G92M

I love the choreography in this scene of Salome
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oVaIuMI0II

e: oh yeah the whole nazi germany thing

The Wiggly Wizard fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Feb 14, 2023

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
I don't think he was ever hated, more like, not fashionable to like ever. Especially with Wagner people.

webcams for christ
Nov 2, 2005

Feels Villeneuve posted:

I don't think he was ever hated, more like, not fashionable to like ever. Especially with Wagner people.

not sure I have the same impression, among opera fans at least

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
I have a feeling that a lot of it is old received wisdom when he was seen as backwards compared to the early 20th century modernists but I think more people appreciate his orchestration skill now that people are far less "factional" about modern classical music

webcams for christ
Nov 2, 2005
that makes sense. as a performer who generally doesn't get to choose my own repertoire, I've long ago distanced myself from most music criticism and aesthetic discourse. I kind of forgot how toxic different camps can be / were.

as mentioned before, I also feel like a lot of folks misinterpret the waltz sequences from Rosenkavalier as being musically conservative. of course by 1911 waltzes were long ago considered passé, but Strauss used them to hearken to the past without going all the way back to the 18th century in which it's set, and to illustrate how much of an out-of-touch buffoon Baron Ochs was and the old penniless Viennese aristocracy in general were

Buttchocks
Oct 21, 2020

No, I like my hat, thanks.
I feel a pining for some Slavonic Dances. One of the things I love about them is the rhythms are deceptively complex. You think something is just a simple 3/4, but then you look at the score and it's in 3/4 but still a hemiola somehow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z592H6t0q8

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:
Soiled Meat
Playing Scheherazade in my orchestra this season, how have I never actually listened to this before? Piece owns-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY4w4_W30aQ

The Wiggly Wizard
Aug 21, 2008


C-Euro posted:

Playing Scheherazade in my orchestra this season, how have I never actually listened to this before? Piece owns-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY4w4_W30aQ

I am very very fond of this piece but I've met a few professional musicians who dislike it for being too corny, and consider it their least favorite thing to play.

gently caress the haters, I say. Give me "IV. Festival at Baghdad. The Sea. The Ship Breaks against a Cliff Surmounted by a Bronze Horseman" any day

While we're on programmatic music, "IV. Marche au supplice (March to the scaffold)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxcRfyzBfyU

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it
Grimey Drawer

C-Euro posted:

Playing Scheherazade in my orchestra this season, how have I never actually listened to this before? Piece owns-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY4w4_W30aQ

It's one of my favourite pieces ever. This is my absolute favourite rendition, it's an oldie but a Goldie. Pulled from an old LP and remastered in 1999, Beecham with the Royal Phil. Just... Marvelous

(in order of source quality/"fidelity")

https://youtu.be/oFcyqZhhrb8

https://open.spotify.com/album/12gqWnkhIOszwytW6jKcMY?si=8VWt5qb6SEO4z34luCU-1Q

https://tidal.com/album/1390777

webcams for christ
Nov 2, 2005

webcams for christ posted:

contemporary composers can be so gimmicky with their scoring, yeah. pain in the rear end if you ask me (even though some of it is really good)


see this is a great example. very specific instrumentation but what a lovely payoff

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.
\
Perhaps a dumb question:

I found a playlist of Mozart's complete works in chronological order by Kochel number and am listening to it because why not.

So far have made it to K67, and while it's all incredibly impressive from a composer who isn't even shaving yet, it's also pretty bland and undifferentiated.

Is there a relatively distinct point in the chronology where things start to get more unique and interesting, or is it just a slow build and I should shut up and enjoy the ride.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
Man, don't listen to Mozart that way. You're going to go insane listening to all that classical period stuff way before you get to the good poo poo like the viola quintets.

I mean I think people who do that with Haydn symphonies are kinda nuts but at least all of those are mature works lol

Mr. Mambold
Feb 13, 2011

Aha. Nice post.



stealie72 posted:

Perhaps a dumb question:

I found a playlist of Mozart's complete works in chronological order by Kochel number and am listening to it because why not.

So far have made it to K67, and while it's all incredibly impressive from a composer who isn't even shaving yet, it's also pretty bland and undifferentiated.

Is there a relatively distinct point in the chronology where things start to get more unique and interesting, or is it just a slow build and I should shut up and enjoy the ride.

Puberty maybe?

tbf, I've listened to virtually none of his early stuff, like pre-K...oh hahaha....

The Wiggly Wizard
Aug 21, 2008


If I were to undertake such a neurotic project, I would at least have some self-respect and listen in backwards order.

Kaiser Schnitzel
Mar 29, 2006

Schnitzel mit uns


stealie72 posted:

Perhaps a dumb question:

I found a playlist of Mozart's complete works in chronological order by Kochel number and am listening to it because why not.

So far have made it to K67, and while it's all incredibly impressive from a composer who isn't even shaving yet, it's also pretty bland and undifferentiated.

Is there a relatively distinct point in the chronology where things start to get more unique and interesting, or is it just a slow build and I should shut up and enjoy the ride.
Alot of Mozart music is just pretty, but when he really gets good its just so pretty it hurts. It doesn't to me have the emotional depth that Beethoven had, and having all heard Beethoven and other more emotional composers, Mozart can definitely sound a little bland? But it's just so freakin pretty.

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it
Grimey Drawer
Yeah, only Mozart's very latest works move me deeply the same way Beethoven does. It's a drat shame we didn't get to hear him develop and push further due to his early death.

Honj Steak
May 31, 2013

Hi there.
Mozart is an interesting challenge to musicians because it only sounds good if it seems easy and natural to the listener, but its actually often really difficult to play with very demanding articulation and phrasing. The beauty is often in small structures and details, bird song and cheeky contrasts. Beethoven is often much more „massive“ in comparison.

Honj Steak fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Feb 25, 2023

80k
Jul 3, 2004

careful!

Honj Steak posted:

Mozart is an interesting challenge to musicians because it only sounds good if it seems easy and natural to the listener, but its actually often really difficult to play with very demanding articulation and phrasing. The beauty is often in small structures and details, bird song and cheeky contrasts. Beethoven is often much more „massive“ in comparison.

This is so true. As someone who plays the piano, I played Mozart my entire life and found it easy as a child, but as an adult, it frustrates me to no end. Last year, I made a vow to not play Mozart anymore, but just last month started playing it again (starting picking up K281). I would way rather learn and play a Beethoven sonata than a Mozart one, yet listeners always think the Beethoven is so much more impressive.

webcams for christ
Nov 2, 2005
I think a chronological Köchelverzeichnis tour can be fun. not all classical music has to be Great Music, or "art with a capital K," as I've heard others joke.

it's swell that with classical music we have the benefit of hindsight to construct a canon of the "best" works to perform and listen to, but in the process you're surrending your taste to others, and I think it can limit your capacity to develop your ear and own aesthetic preferences.

I also don't think we should worry too much about always capitalizing on our time every second and only concerning ourselves with Art that's met a certain arbitrary threshold

finally, if you visit any art museum dedicated to a single artists, a great number of exhibits are of sketches and early works. and you'll see the rooms filled with guests and even guided tours. it can be edifying to watch an artist with a significant output develop over time

BWV
Feb 24, 2005


One thing I adore about Mozart is the way you think you know where he's going with it but then he does something wonderfully clever and elegant that you never expected but makes complete sense.

Other composers may be more moving or affecting but (to me) Mozart delights like no one else. As a result I often find myself chuckling during playing/listening. He also has this tendency to just sneak in these wonderful melodies in unexpected places like the end of a development or in a closing theme; this is especially true in the later piano concerti.

I don't know if it still holds up but Mozart's Grace by Scott Burnham really speaks to this. You can find a pdf pretty easily online.

Kaiser Schnitzel
Mar 29, 2006

Schnitzel mit uns


BWV posted:

One thing I adore about Mozart is the way you think you know where he's going with it but then he does something wonderfully clever and elegant that you never expected but makes complete sense.

Other composers may be more moving or affecting but (to me) Mozart delights like no one else. As a result I often find myself chuckling during playing/listening. He also has this tendency to just sneak in these wonderful melodies in unexpected places like the end of a development or in a closing theme; this is especially true in the later piano concerti.

I don't know if it still holds up but Mozart's Grace by Scott Burnham really speaks to this. You can find a pdf pretty easily online.
This has kind of always been my take on Mozart too. It's just pretty but its so pretty its substantial beyond just pretty. It's sublime, it's genius, it's beautiful, it's emotional, plenty of it makes me want to cry, not from any emotion the composer has injected into the score, but because it's just so freakin pretty. I love Haydn too, and Haydn can certainly be very pretty (and funny) but he very rarely reaches transcendence in the way that Mozart does.

e: mozart is also really consistently good. I'm not super familiar with his early stuff, but pick basically any Mozart symphony and it's gonna be fantastic.

Kaiser Schnitzel fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Feb 26, 2023

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.

webcams for christ posted:

I think a chronological Köchelverzeichnis tour can be fun. not all classical music has to be Great Music, or "art with a capital K," as I've heard others joke.

it's swell that with classical music we have the benefit of hindsight to construct a canon of the "best" works to perform and listen to, but in the process you're surrending your taste to others, and I think it can limit your capacity to develop your ear and own aesthetic preferences.

This is the opposite of what doing this is, though, it involves listening to a lot of undistinguished and uninspired classical period work that is specifically only ever recorded because a famous person with a reputation wrote it


like seriously if you want to expand your idea of what the canon is, i can't think of a worse way to do it than listening to a lot of mediocre Mozart.

Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Feb 27, 2023

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.
\
Yeah, if I keep doing this harebrained gimmick, its going to be background music while I work until something catches my ear.

I'm coming at this more from a "Pokémon: gotta catch em all" mindset than trying to broaden my horizons of music.

It just kind of struck me that Mozart has 626 works and in more than 4 decades of listening to and playing classical music I've come across maybe 20% of them.

Which is probably true of every composer I like. But they don't have a convenient numbered catalog created by completist nerds that ensures scraps of music they composed when they were 5 are available as streaming recordings in my pocket 250 years later.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
the official mahler symphony rankings are 6>9>1>2>3>4>7>5>8. i researched this extensively. thank you

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
anyway its time to get into Elektra and the Berg operas

Buttchocks
Oct 21, 2020

No, I like my hat, thanks.
rolling a 100-sided die to choose which Haydn symphony to listen to

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
bad move because 102 is the best one


(other than 45/the farewell)

Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Mar 5, 2023

The Wiggly Wizard
Aug 21, 2008


Mahler rules and his symphonies don't need ranking, but I like 1 the best and I'm surprised you put 5 so low!

There are two full docs on Mahler by Michael Tilson Thomas that are very much worth watching. They have concerts after the doc which are recorded really nicely.

Mahler 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DfYcT5icY

Songs of a Wayfarer, No.5 Adagietto, No. 7 Scherzo, No. 9 Rondo Burlesque
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qv_vCHZkcg

Also Urlicht from No. 2 is just perfect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulu0ztNldlc

Buttchocks
Oct 21, 2020

No, I like my hat, thanks.
Keeping Score looks like an interesting series.

ferroque
Oct 27, 2007

I got to perform Mahler 1 for the first time a few weeks ago. Definitely a marathon but it's so worth it by the end

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
5 is just structurally weird to me in a way I haven't gotten my hands on yet. Then again I think that about Beethoven 3, and everyone loves that one so hey.

I probably should read up on it a bit, it seems like your normal "darkness to light" symphony but it goes about it in a weird way where it all seems to hinge on that long rear end central scherzo which I still haven't quite understood yet

zenguitarman
Apr 6, 2009

Come on, lemme see ya shake your tail feather


The tenors in No. 2 get to sing the 3rd in that Eb major chord during "Auferstehen - Ja, Auferstehen!" and it feels soooooooooooooo good.

The Wiggly Wizard
Aug 21, 2008


Buttchocks posted:

Keeping Score looks like an interesting series.

It is! All free on YouTube for the last couple years

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
re: Haydn 102 it's always kinda funny that the "the popular Haydn symphonies are the ones with nicknames" rule holds except for the one apart from 45/"Farewell" that's usually considered his best

also it should have had a nickname, 96/"Miracle" was called that because a chandelier collapsed on the audience during the premiere but nobody was hurt, except scholars now believe that happened during the premiere of 102

webcams for christ
Nov 2, 2005
Caught Mahler 5 and Adès' The Exterminating Angel Symphony on Friday. Sublime.

in other news, classical music in the UK is looking grimmer and grimmer. BBC announced that they were axing their entire choir last week:

https://twitter.com/piercepenniless/status/1635299713468727302

Guardian Story

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saladscooper
Jan 25, 2019

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019
Hi all, young aspiring opera singer here

My question is, does anyone appreciate Wagner, and if so, why and how. I likely will never sing Wagner unless I'm in the chorus (which restricts me to like half his output anyway) but he's obviously a major part of the rep and it would be nice to learn how to vibe with him at least a little bit. Most of the time when I listen to him, even in the shorter works, I'm just think "shut up" the whole time lmao

For reference, some of my favorite composers are Brahms/Ravel/Copland in the non-operatic division and Britten/Massenet/Sullivan in the operatic division

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