|
It's been quite a while since I've seen a thread about DSMs in AI. That's probably because in 2003 the Lancer Evolution finally made it to the US shores and in turn made the poor trio of cars from Diamond Star Motors completely obsolete. Everything the DSM could do, the Evo does better. Pretty soon the annual DSM Shootout became the DSM and Evo Shootout. Every aftermarket parts company worth a drat switched to the new platform and basically stopped producing new cutting edge performance parts for DSMs. Even David Buschur, one of the biggest and earliest contributors to the DSM community, has been quoted saying that DSMs are junk compared to the Evo and that the Lancer is the car we should have had all along. (quoting from memory because I can't find the actual post at the moment). It's a pretty sad time for a platform that put a turbocharged all wheel drive car in your driveway for well under $20k in 1989. Their resale value has dropped so much over the last 10 years that you can find low mileage versions of the flagship model 1999 Eclipse GSX for a few thousand dollars, and 1st gen cars are going for next to nothing. So why am I spending so much time on such an outdated and obsolete platform? I just love em. I love the 80's styling, the wedge shaped design, the goofy dashboard, and the fact that the first DSM to roll off the assembly line is now approaching 22 years old. So here is my quick (not really) story. I bought my 1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD in December, 2000. Here it is in Summer, 2001 while it was still mostly stock next to my other mostly stock 91 Eclipse GSX. The Eclipse had 215k miles when I bought it with a friend a few months earlier. We put a JDM 4G63 long block in the car to replace the very tired stock engine and it ran like a top. He still owns the car which now has a built engine along with all the best go-fast parts you could buy in 2004.  It didn't take long before it looked like this: (please excuse the gaudy wheels. I bought them in 1999 for my old Eclipse GS. I was young and didn't know what I was doing ok.) I know the car looks almost unchanged except for the intercooler, but there is a lot of changes under the hood.  And here I am launching at the 2002 DSM shootout: (again, gaudy wheel warning)  And then in the winter of 2002 I got caught in a sudden blizzard in northern PA on summer tires and no ABS, and well this happened.  I happened to have purchased a wrecked red 91 AWD talon shell for $200 that summer from which I sourced a new hood, fender, headlight pieces, radiator, etc. So a few months later and $400 at a body shop to pull the radiator support back out, I had it back and doing this:  The summer of 2003 I graduated college and needed reliable transportation for work. The Talon was on its third (used) transmission and needed a slew of things fixed, so I parked it for a year while I worked and saved up money. It made a triumphant return to the DSM Shootout in 2005 with a brand new Shepherd racing transmission. The engine was definitely getting tired though after running 26psi through a Forced Performance Green turbo for 10,000 miles, and that mixed with a slowly dying S-AFC, it was destined for a rebuild. The compression in one cylinder was a bit low, so I parked it for a while until I could get the money together for the rebuild. Little did I know that wouldn't happen for 6 years. I moved to Los Angeles from Maryland in 2005 following my dream to work in the film industry. The Talon sat at my mother's house under a car cover for a year and a half before it would be shipped to her new house in San Francisco in 2006. I flew back to Maryland to help with the move and to load the Talon onto a flatbed which would take it to Baltimore where it would be transferred to a car carrier for the cross country trip. I got a call mid way through the week telling me the car stopped working. I figured the guy just messed up the turbo timer and cut the ignition or something. I got to San Fran to meet the driver of the car carrier to find the Talon unable to turn over and body damage on the front where they seem to have ran it into something. So, with me having no money and nowhere to put the car, it sat in a garage in San Fran for 4 more years. Then in November 2010, my mother got a job offer and had to move, which coincided with me moving to a place that had a two car garage in LA. Boom, I rented a u-Haul and picked the old girl up.  In its new home:  So I finally began the tear down this weekend to figure out exactly what went wrong, and it turns out quite a bit. I figured since the car had no more miles on the odometer between Maryland and California that the car haulers let it overheat somehow and blew the headgasket. Turns out the headgasket is perfectly fine, and it just decided to drop a few valves into the cylinders: (you can see the still new shiny race transmission from 2005 with around 800 miles on it.) Also the turbo here is the same one in my avatar pic before I installed it.    So thanks to the new hole in the head where a valve used to be, this head is shot. I am on the hunt for a 4G63 head to start my rebuild. I'm planning on a mild rebuild for the bottom end with 2g DSM pistons which will raise the compression ratio to 8.5 from 7.8. The head will get some upgrades though to make it more reliable and hopefully less willing to dump the valvetrain into the cylinders again. I've not yet decided on what parts I'll be using there, so I'll update later with that info. This thead will be updated as I can with pics and info on bringing my little obsolete Talon back to life after a 6 year hiatus. I managed to find a turbo '91 Laser in a local junkyard with a near mint stock 14b turbo that I got for $80, so I will probably switch to that once the new engine is assembled to help get it to pass SMOG and help break it in. Once those processes are over with, I'll probably upgrade to an Evo III 16g turbo and be happy with around 350hp. There are three reasons for this: #1 91 octane gas in CA sucks. I am building this for reliability and I don't want tuning for high boost on a big turbo to be a huge headache. #2 The current wastegate setup is an o2 housing mounted 40mm TiAL external wastegate with a dump tube. It is LOUD. I don't want to never be able to go WOT around LA in fear of being pulled over by a cop because he could hear me coming from 3 miles away with his windows up. #3 In its previous incarnation, it was a street/drag car. Having 450~ horsepower is ok when you are just trying to go fast in a straight line. This version will be geared more towards autocross and road course racing, so a smaller and faster spooling turbo will be much better suited for those purposes. It will probably be slower than my 09 STi, but you don't see many 1st gen DSMs in good condition on the road these days and I'll just love driving a reliable(ish) DSM again. While on the topic of DSMs, and this will be my last note for this post, my dream DSM, and one that I will own some day is probably the rarest kind ever made. A 1994 Plymouth Laser RS AWD with the gold package. Only 5,284 Lasers were made in 1994, with production ending on February 9th. Of that, very few were turbo, even fewer were AWD, and probably a handful had the gold package, which consists of gold wheels, gold lettering and pinstriping on the sides, and gold badges on the rear. It's very possible that none of these exist anymore, but it's my DSM wet dream to find one. Here is a pic of a '93 with the gold package. I know it's pretty gaudy, but the rarity makes it irresistible for me.  Feel free to discuss my DSM, or your DSM, fun DSM experiences, or anything DSM related. BoostCreep fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Jan 10, 2011 |
#
?
Jan 10, 2011 07:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 08:01 |
|
|
I did the Timing Belt/Water pump on a 1994 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo with the gold package in November, so they are still around. I didn't know they were so rare. This one was Red/Gold and all original(Even the head unit/CD player). Mint shape too. It was a FWD Variant.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 05:06
|
|
|
What's up DSM grave awriser! I wish you well in your project. My 2G GSX is still sitting under car covers (almost six years at this point  ) at my parents house with blown JICs, some really old Azenis, and still starts perfect if you give enough charge to the battery. I think my DSM Link computer is still around somewhere.Maybe this will inspire me to pull it out one of these days and spend some cash on the old money pit. I know what you mean though not having money/space at all. I feel so "out of it" as far as tech/tuning stuff/etc. Has anything really changed that much in the last 5-6 years of DSMs?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 05:47
|
|
|
People make 400hp on 2.0L WRX engines all day on 91 octane, so its plenty doable. Just call a friend named Aquamist and the sky is the limit. Also I have a bent-valve 1G head thats all yours if you want it, that and a 90 GS-T brand new starter. And most of a 1G spoiler.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 05:53
|
|
|
Very nice cars! I have a 1G myself and love the looks of them as well. I have a '91 GST because I am a sucker for the pop-ups. Please keep us updated on any work. This is the first car I've ever really worked on and its surprisingly pretty easy. Just did a lot of maintenance like the alternator, power steering pump, radiator and stuff like that. Will be doing a minor engine rebuild once its warmer out. What do you think about the balance shaft eliminator kits?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 06:11
|
|
|
Nice Project! I love DSM's, My parents had an NA 93' Plymouth Laser when I was kid, I loved that car, I learned how to drive stick on that car, but they sold it in 2000 to a DSM nut, My dad and I followed him home to deliver the car and he had a 91 AWD turbo completely torn apart in his garage. So at least it found a good home. The EVO might be a "better" car from a technical standpoint, but I've always thought those things are ugly as poo poo. The DSM's (esp the 1st gens!) were just really cool looking cars.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 06:31
|
|
|
DJ Commie posted:And most of a 1G spoiler. Why do you keep "most" of a spoiler laying around? Does it have to be less than 50% of something to be considered garbage?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 06:44
|
|
|
oRenj9 posted:Why do you keep "most" of a spoiler laying around? Does it have to be less than 50% of something to be considered garbage? I'm trying to remember if I have the outer ends, I know I have the middle section. It was destined for a LeMons car but people really like the Giant 1G hatch spoiler.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 06:48
|
|
|
Just curious but what makes the Evo such a better car? More rigid chassis? Better suspension options? I love the looks of the 2Gs and would love to have one as a project but the stories I've heard in the past have scared me... a lot.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 08:21
|
|
|
D. melanogaster posted:Just curious but what makes the Evo such a better car? More rigid chassis? Better suspension options? That and the EVO's had other engine and driveline options that rock. Everytime I see a DSM thread, makes me wish for another Galant VR4.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 10:07
|
|
|
I had the bastard stepchild of the DSMs, the Dodge Avenger. Mine was a 1995 ES with the Mitsu 6G73 engine in it (iirc). It was a fun enough car, but auto and FWD meant it wasn't really ever going to be much more than a transportation device. It was also quite prone to understeer. Good luck with your DSM!
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 17:01
|
|
|
Technical advice might be a little inappropriate for your project thread, but here goes (second-hand). One of the guys in the Subaru club picked up a '91 Talon TSI for super cheap recently. It doesn't start - he's bench tested the fuel pump, checked the coolant temperature sensors, replaced spark plugs and done the engine timing but it just won't kick over. He will probably replace the coolant temperature sensor anyway even though the tests bore it out - when he removed one of them the car sputtered a little bit more than usual like it was trying to actually turn over and start. I'm guessing there's something cutting the fuel pump off - I know that some Saturns have the oil pressure sensor inline with the fuel pump so that you can't start the car without oil in it, for instance. I remember in high school that everyone had a CRX and wanted a 2G turbo. Coincidentally, I've always wanted a 1G as well, although the WRX is a significantly better car. There's just something about how brash and bizarre it is, like a domestic muscle car transported into the future. edit: Oh he has a thread here on dsmtuners. Please take a look if you can. Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jan 11, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 17:29
|
|
|
U MAD posted:I had the bastard stepchild of the DSMs, the Dodge Avenger. I used to have a '98 Avenger. It has the 420a engine. Slow as balls, but since it was so heavy it did well in the snow.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 17:42
|
|
|
D. melanogaster posted:Just curious but what makes the Evo such a better car? More rigid chassis? Better suspension options? The DSM cars were the engine and driveline from a Galant VR4 from the late 80s, and the engine series from the early 80s. The Evos were stiffer, lighter, had better suspension geometry, safer, better brakes, more power, but otherwise weren't much different until the Evo IV. The engine switched around, electronics started appearing, and they still were lighter. The Evo 8 RS is lighter than even the most stripper of turbo-awd DSMs. A Convertible Turbo Eclipse is heavier than an EvoX. I had a 90 Laser RS Turbo, it was the best $150 car I ever sold for $650 and kept all the spares, which I probably sold for $1000 over a few years. That and kept the wheels and tires, they ended up on my Toyota pickup for years and years and still were good when I sold it to some Guatemalan guy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 18:18
|
|
|
I had this DSM-ish car back in the day.   1990-91 Galant GS-X. NA-4g63 AWD 5speed. ECU issues got so bad I carried a spare in the trunk. Plans were to turbo the NA or do a 4G63T swap but nothing ever happened due to constant repairs just to keep it running ate all funding. Finally the trans went out and it took a few months to track one down. The trans had a different final gear ratio than any other AWD DSM or the VR4, and couldnt swing cost to convert everything to DSM spec. I was young and dumb and had to part the car for a little bit of nothing but to this day I still want a Galant VR4.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 18:36
|
|
|
Octopus Magic posted:I feel so "out of it" as far as tech/tuning stuff/etc. Has anything really changed that much in the last 5-6 years of DSMs? It seems like you are in the same place as me. I was heavily in the DSM "scene" and doing all of my modding a few years before DSMlink was available. People were still relying on S-AFCs and DSMchips or whatever the other company was at the time. I am extremely out of the loop and really don't know how much has changed since I parked the car in 2005. One thing I have noticed is that people are switching from DSM specific turbos like the Forced Performance products and going with Holset turbos from Cummins diesel engines. They are apparently very fast spooling, can produce 500+hp with a 2.0 4G63, and can be had used from junkyards for $80. And they essentially bolt right up to the manifold and o2 housing with little work. Holset HY-35 (2002+ Dodge Ram) on the right, 14b on the left.  So there do seem to be a lot of changes in the last 6 years. I have a lot to catch up on. DJ Commie posted:People make 400hp on 2.0L WRX engines all day on 91 octane, so its plenty doable. Just call a friend named Aquamist and the sky is the limit. I am still thinking about keeping the Green. I will need to route the external dump back into the downpipe though if I do that. However I'm not really a fan of using any type of injection system, whether it be water or other. I'll have to think about that. And I will absolutely take that head off your hands. You are a life saver. I remember talking to you about your Laser years and years ago when I was still living in Maryland. It'd be nice to finally meet you. I'll send you a PM. Super Aggro Crag posted:What do you think about the balance shaft eliminator kits? Nice GS-Turbo! They are pretty easy to work on once you get the hang of their quirks. I learned pretty much everything I know on the silver '91 GSX in my first post. You can learn quite a bit and quite fast with these cars. (if you don't you'll have a huge pile of repair bills.) As for the eliminator kits, they are great for a couple reasons. For one, they remove the balance shaft belt giving you zero chance for it to break and take out the timing belt. It also blocks off the oil hole for the balance shaft bearings so you get better oil pressure according to RRE. The only downside is you will feel more vibration at certain RPMs in the car while driving. I will be adding the kit to my engine while doing the rebuild or sure. Huggable Bear King posted:The EVO might be a "better" car from a technical standpoint, but I've always thought those things are ugly as poo poo. The DSM's (esp the 1st gens!) were just really cool looking cars. Well I have owned two Evos, a 2003 Evo 8 and a 2006 Evo 9. They are fantastic cars, and easily the best cars I have ever owned or driven. The problem I had with them, and it sounds stupid, is that they are too perfect. I found no faults with the Evo as a daily driver as far as performance goes. It stopped faster than needed on the street, accelerated faster than most cars out there, handled better, etc. I drove Evos for 5 years total and never modified either of them at any time. I just didn't feel the need. The only problem I had with them is that they got really slow and boggy when the A/C was on or when there were more than two people in the car. I'm driving an '09 STi as a daily driver now and the 2.5L engine fixes the issues I had with the Evo's 2.0L 4G63. And the Subaru is much more comfortable on the road as a daily driver compared to the Evo. Jeremy Clarkson was right. The Evo is the obvious choice on the track, but I prefer the Subie for daily driving. D. melanogaster posted:Just curious but what makes the Evo such a better car? More rigid chassis? Better suspension options? Other people have already chimed in, but it was better in every way. It is a 4 door car that weighed about the same as the 2 door AWD DSM. That is thanks to the aluminum fenders, hood, roof, control arms, and probably other panels as well. The DSM is mostly steel compared to the mostly aluminum parts of the Evo. The Evo comes with a larger turbo, injectors, intercooler, wheels, tires, brakes, has HIDs, basically racing seats, electronic stability control, two electronically controlled limited slip differentials compared to the optional mechanical rear only diff on the DSM, and the list keeps on going. There is literally nothing the DSM has that is better, save maybe for the fact that the 2G Eclipse and Talon does come with 4 wheel independent double wishbone suspension. The Evo uses a similar mcpherson strut suspension setup as the 1st gens. But this has its own problems such as upper balljoints blowing out if not properly maintained. One interesting thing to mention while on the topic of 1st gen suspension is that the rear subframe used was sourced from the Galant VR-4 which had 4 wheel steering. The subframe has rubber mounts that let it slightly sway horizontally left and right. While this helps keep the rear wheels in alignment while turning in the Galant, it actually hurts handling performance. 1st gen AWD race guys actually weld the subframe to counteract this which improves handling substantially. U MAD posted:I had the bastard stepchild of the DSMs, the Dodge Avenger. Fun little fact is that the early 95 Avengers and Sebrings actually say DSM on the manufacturer sticker on the firewall. If you ever want to piss off a DSM guy, start claiming that your Avenger or Sebring is just as much a DSM as their Eclipse or Talon. Then when they start to argue you can show them your Diamond Star Motors sticker on the firewall.  Seat Safety Switch posted:Technical advice might be a little inappropriate for your project thread, but here goes (second-hand). I've never heard of a coolant temperature sensor causing starting problems with a DSM. However, there are a lot of little quirks that DSMs have been known to have that can cause this problem. The number 1 cause is bad capacitors in the ECU. Back in the 80's, Mitsubishi decided to place 3 caps in the ECU which after driving around in a hot dashboard for 10 years started to go bad. They can burst open and leak acid on the ECU's board which eats away at connections and causes all sorts of weird starting problems. I would check that first. For some reason your friend's problem sounds like it is ignition related. I would check the plug wires and coil pack after the ECU. I have seen wires arc through the rubber coating to the head and shorting itself out. Coil packs are also problematic on 20 year old cars. I'll read through that thread later and see if I can get any more info. evilnissan posted:I had this DSM-ish car back in the day. Nice GSX! I never knew they existed until I saw one in a junkyard with the roof cut off. I stole the GSX badge to prove to my DSM buddies that an NA AWD Galant GSX existed. They were actually rarer than the VR4 if I remember correctly.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 21:19
|
|
|
DJ Commie posted:The DSM cars were the engine and driveline from a Galant VR4 from the late 80s, and the engine series from the early 80s. The Evos were stiffer, lighter, had better suspension geometry, safer, better brakes, more power, but otherwise weren't much different until the Evo IV. The engine switched around, electronics started appearing, and they still were lighter. The Evo 8 RS is lighter than even the most stripper of turbo-awd DSMs. The suspension geometries of the first gen dsms and early EVOs is more or less identical. You can bolt up older (Evo 1-3) suspension to to a 1G and change the rear coil heights and it'll work, although why you would want to hook up most of the junky crap that's out there is beyond me. The 2G's got the more sophisticated (and their own barrel of issues) multilink. An RS Evo 8 is an unfair match as it's a designated stripper model with no radio, wind up windows, etc, and the only way you could have a DSM stripper model equal to the RS is if your last name ended with Archer. All and all it's really not fair to compare them as they were targeted at very different markets (sport compact versus all out sporting specialized vehicle) and wah wah wah my butt hurts because my car is fat and slow. Octopus Magic fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jan 11, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 21:33
|
|
|
Can you go over the differences in the various 4G63 iterations? I'm sure the Evo 4G63s incorporate various changes, since it doesn't seem to suffer from the crankwalk that Eclipses' motors had.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 22:12
|
|
|
kimbo305 posted:Can you go over the differences in the various 4G63 iterations? I'm sure the Evo 4G63s incorporate various changes, since it doesn't seem to suffer from the crankwalk that Eclipses' motors had.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 22:30
|
|
|
I'm in love with DSMs and especially their close relative, the Galant VR4. This is what the garage of a person with a 4g63 sickness looks like... 
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 22:32
|
|
|
DJ Commie posted:The Evo 8 RS is lighter than even the most stripper of turbo-awd DSMs. The 8 RS comes to 1400 kgs. A 1G Laser is 3073lb = 1393 kg. The RS EVO X is somewhere in the reality of 1500 kgs, the GSR closer to 1600 kgs. From what I can find the Spyder is about 1450 kgs. Now the early EVO's of the same time, those are light. Kerb of a EVO 2 is 1150kgs. HOWEVER unlike the later EVO's, the early DSM / Galant VR4 can be light weighted big time and still retain carpets and seats. The VR4 for instance can be pared down to 1330kgs with interior. They just have more poo poo in them to work with.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 22:35
|
|
|
Seat Safety Switch posted:I'm not sure, but I seem to remember hearing the Evo 1 is susceptible to crankwalk as well. No, all EVO 1-3 (and the reversed 4-5 motors, for that matter) will all walk. A guy I know pulled his EVO 2 motor out and it was walking. You usually don't hear about Evo's walking because they weren't available stateside and they usually had low mileage in Japan/were built up into rally/N1/touring cars. Mitsubishi really didn't get ahold of the crankwalk issue until until the 1998-1999 year model when they moved to a different thrust bearing design that aided the prevention. To my knowledge, I really haven't heard much of the late 98/99 DSMs crankwalking ever.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 22:57
|
|
|
I had a 98 GS-T 5spd. Great car, I bought it from a cop down in Virgina on ebay for $4500 in early 2006 (I lived in Michigan at the time). Checked it out, belts looked a little worn, but I figured they would make the trip home and I could just replace them when I got it back to Flint. Maybe running 120 on the Pennsylvania Turnpike on the way home accelerated the demise of those belts or something because about 3 hours from home (Sandusky, Ohio to be precise) I lost the accessory belt and had to tow it to a garage at 3 am on a Sunday morning in the middle of a pretty good snowstorm. Had to sell the car about 7 months later before I moved to Kansas.  Wish I still had it, even if it is a bitch to get in and out of for someone as tall as I am. Bone stock it was fast enough for anything I ever wanted to do with it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 23:20
|
|
|
If you want to really tick off people, You could just put a Evo 4 onwards drivtrain into the car, ( Your block with a Evo 4 up head and spin the drivetrain 180 Degree's. With the Evo Drivetrain of course.) Its certainly possible with a VR4 ( Its been done) and The largest bit of fabrication appears to Involve installing the RHS Engine mount onto the Lhs. This gives you the Stronger 2 shaft transmission. I havent heard of it being done to a DSM but it may be worth doing if you want to keep the car to beat up on Evo's And go get a Autronic, They are soo much more fun than the standard ECU! ( If you are nice ive even got some Grp A maps!) Comedy head option? The head from a Hyundai ... Slightly smaller ports ( because the Mitsubishi VR4 head ports are actually too big...) And its all the same stuff! Bet thing is... They are a plague at the wreckers, So nice and cheap.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2011 23:40
|
|
|
evilnissan posted:I had this DSM-ish car back in the day. These are awesome, and quite rare. No VR-4 but they are are still solid.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 00:44
|
|
|
kimbo305 posted:Can you go over the differences in the various 4G63 iterations? I'm sure the Evo 4G63s incorporate various changes, since it doesn't seem to suffer from the crankwalk that Eclipses' motors had. There were a bunch of changes through the years. It is part of the "Sirius" family of 4 cylinder engines first produced in the early 70's by Mitsubishi. The 4G63 officially showed up as the 2.0 DOHC Turbo in 1987 for the Galant VR4. That was the "6 bolt" version that is identified by the 6 bolts that are used to secure the flywheel to the crankshaft. That model had a lot of small variations such as 450cc injectors and the TD04 14b turbo for manual versions and 390cc injectors and a smaller 13g turbo for automatic cars. This version of the engine is not considered at high risk for Crankwalk. There have been a very small number of cases reported, but last I read into it they were very high horsepower engines with nitrous and other power adders and were basically pretty abused. These were seen in the US from 1990-1992.5 years and is the most sought after. The next version was the 7 bolt engine. These started appearing half way through '92 on DSMs and remained unchanged through '94 in the US and other cars around the world. They had a number of minor changes such as smaller connecting rods, smaller head studs, and other little differences. They were still about as stout as the 6 bolt engines and can still be made just as powerful without any changes. These engines were also mostly crankwalk free. Again there were a handful of complaints, but not enough to become a nationwide problem. Early '95 cars (2g) used leftover '94 short blocks with a redesigned head (mostly just smaller diameter intake ports) and were not very prone to crankwalk. Starting about half way through '95 is when the new 7 bolt blocks started showing up, and along with it came the serious reports of crankwalk. Crankwalk was a fairly big problem among enthusiasts from mid '95 through late '97 to early '98 when it seemed that Mitsu started getting it under control. The cars that were most affected were 5 speed manual cars with aftermarket clutches, but even factory stock cars were known to have the crank walk as well. Cars that had the problem fixed under warranty often crankwalked again due to being replaced with the same faulty parts. Crankwalk was a problem among enthusiasts during the late 90's to mid 00's, but most DSMs are higher mileage now and have either had the problem already and had it fixed or never had the problem in the first place. Very very few auto cars were reported with the problem due to no sideways pressure being placed on the crankshaft bearings from the pressure plate. As big a deal that people like to make of it, crankwalk probably affected a lot less vehicles than people think. There are thousands of 2g turbo DSMs that are completely fine and never had the issue appear at all. It can be compared to the problems that Subaru had with their '07 STI and '09 WRX engines where there were several bad batches of parts that caused problems until enough people made a big enough stink to have it fixed. Crankwalk was mostly a problem for only about 3-4 model years from mid 95's to late 97's with a few random 98's and 99's having reported cases. But when so few show up for those years it's hard to call it an epidemic. Edit: Forgot to add the Evo motors. The Lancer Evo 4 showed up in 1996 with a redesigned 4G63. They flipped the engine around 180 degrees so the timing belt is on the passenger side of the car and the transmission is on the driver's side. To keep the turbo on the front of the engine and the intake at the back, they flipped the head around to match previous models. They did this for a couple reasons, mostly so they could go from a 3 axle setup to a 2 axle setup for the front wheels, reducing parts and making the drivetrain stronger and more reliable. This engine has remained mostly mechanically unchanged internally except with the addition of MIVEC in the mid 2000's. It is still referred to as a 7 bolt engine and is mechanically very similar. I've personally never heard of a US spec Evo 4G63 having any crankwalk issues. The new Evo X changed to a new 4B11 engine that is all aluminum and puts the turbo between the engine and the firewall. It is completely different than the 4G63 which shared most of its components going back to 1987. BoostCreep fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jan 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 01:59
|
|
|
Boostcreep do you know anything about the "Sirius Dash" motors found in JDM Starions? Was there ever a Twin-cam Starion? Info on the web seems to be unclear.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 02:15
|
|
|
exhaust heat posted:Boostcreep do you know anything about the "Sirius Dash" motors found in JDM Starions? I honestly don't know a whole lot about the Starion cars other than I get really excited when I see them on the road these days. I'm pretty sure they had a 2.6L SOHC engine in the US, but I've never heard of a Sirius dash engine before. I have seen DOHC 4G63 conversions quite often, but nothing like that from the factory.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 02:24
|
|
|
How are the DSM cars for rallycross? I've been wanting to get into it with a cheap learner car. This thread has made me check craigslist in my area and I see a couple of Talon Tsi's that just need minor work for really cheap. I'm sorely tempted...
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 03:27
|
|
|
I've got my own DSM project in the works, but it's on hold until i find a suitable shell. I've got a 1993 talon tsi fwd with a built 2.3l motor and broken 5 speed tranny. Looking for a galant vr4 or a clean 1g gsx/tsi awd shell to come up. Going to do some pretty big upgrades all at once, bigger injectors, walboro 255 pump, shep transmission, EPROM ecu with dsm link. I'm still not sure what size injectors to go with, or if my 16g evo 3 turbo is up to snuff of what I'm shooting for. I found a RHD galant vr4 shell for cheap, but it seems to be a LHD converted to RHD instead of a grey import. Not sure I wanna drive a rhd car anyways, I'm gonna be stupid and drive this thing everywhere for at least a little awhile. I've already got a large FMIC, balance shaft eliminator kit installed, fresh 60k tune up performed on the motor, with a fresh rebuild. This thing is going to be a monster, and I'm really hoping for it to be a sleeper. I'll have to post pics of my current fwd talon, fucker is primer grey and looks like its been through a war.That's why i want a galant vr4, 400 hp sleeper from hell. I love these cars way too much. Awesome thread.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 03:49
|
|
|
From Wikipiedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starion Engine capacity was 2.0 L with the Sirius 4G63 2.0 L engine, subsequently featured in DOHC form in the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution series of automobiles. However, American customers received the larger Astron G54B 2.6 L engine, but without any additional horsepower. Neither engines were DOHC No factory dohc starions.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 04:01
|
|
|
bargh posted:How are the DSM cars for rallycross? I've been wanting to get into it with a cheap learner car. This thread has made me check craigslist in my area and I see a couple of Talon Tsi's that just need minor work for really cheap. Just a wee bit on the decent side.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 04:14
|
|
|
BoostCreep posted:They did this for a couple reasons, mostly so they could go from a 3 axle setup to a 2 axle setup for the front wheels, reducing parts and making the drivetrain stronger and more reliable. bargh posted:How are the DSM cars for rallycross? I've been wanting to get into it with a cheap learner car. This thread has made me check craigslist in my area and I see a couple of Talon Tsi's that just need minor work for really cheap.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 04:41
|
|
|
kimbo305 posted:Can you explain (or show via a diagram) how tranverse engines power the front wheels? I can't picture really picture what either setup (3- or 2-axle) looks like. Does one integrate the transmission and transfer case? It's actually harder than I thought to find the right pictures online for reference, so hopefully these will work. The driver side axle goes into the far passenger (back) side of the transmission next to the end case. The center axle goes into a hole on the driver side of the transmission next to where it bolts to the engine block and right above where the transfer case bolts to the transmission. The center axle bolts to the block on the far side from the transmission where it goes through a carrier bearing to the driver side axle which goes to the driver side front wheel.   Does that make sense? BoostCreep fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jan 13, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 21:26
|
|
|
 
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 21:48
|
|
|
OP, I have a few questions for you. Once its warmer out I'll be doing more work on the car. I have a blown head gasket at the moment. While I'm replacing that, I want to replace a few more things such as the timing belt, water pump, 3G lifters and balance shaft eliminator kit. However, I'm shooting for an overall goal of about 250HP. Given that it comes with 195HP stock, I feel like this is a reasonable goal. What mods would you recommend to give me a number close to this? It seems like everyone on DSMTuners is rocking 300+HP and I don't really want my FWD car to have that much power, nor do I have the resources to accomplish that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 22:23
|
|
|
BoostCreep posted:
A fully loaded AWD Talon from 1998 is probably a bit rarer, 4,307 total production, with the AWD turbo versions being a small number of that. <fake edit> Wow, only 10 Eagle Talons made in 1989. I'd say that would make them "rarest DSM". I've owned both a 1991 Talon AWD (blew the motor and sold it to a DSM friend), and a 1997 Talon AWD (Still own).
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 23:14
|
|
|
BoostCreep posted:
The top label in the quoted pic should be Passenger side axle, shouldn't it? One thing that's not clear to me is why there needs to be an intermediate axle. The Passenger side axle goes into a CV joint, right? Why can't there be a single long axle that goes into the same CV joint for the driver's side (which seems to be how Throatwarbler's diagram is showing it)? Is there too much flex between the motor, mounts, and chassis to use an axle that long? e: maybe I'm hanging up on the terminology. quote:The center axle bolts to the block on the far side from the transmission where it goes through a carrier bearing to the driver side axle which goes to the driver side front wheel. From reading this...the piece labeled Driver side axle is the last axle in the driveline before the wheel hub? Whereas the piece labeled Passengery side axle is not the analogous piece on the other side, correct? I'm going by the fact that it doesn't have CV joints on both ends. In this interpretation, the intermediate axle and the passenger side axle have the same function, they're just different lengths to accomodate the offset front diff. kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jan 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 23:17
|
|
|
Having an intermediate shaft keeps axle tramp down, unsprung weight down, tripod-joint travel down, torque steer down, and tons of other things. Axles can be too short, but with an indermediate, you can design in optimal lengths. FWD cars with massive power and tendency to wheel-hop are nigh undrivable without at least equal-length driveshafts.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 23:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 08:01 |
|
|
Yea, I think that's labeled wrong. You're looking at the Driver's side of the trans, so the passenger axle would be on the opposite side. The intermediate/center "axle" is technically called the intermediate shaft. It's just a metal shaft, it bolts up to the back side of the engine block with a carrier bearing assembly. Without the intermediate shaft, the two axles would be wildly different lengths, as well as have different angles on the CV joints. Using an intermediate shaft, the two CV axles themselves are roughly the same length, and have the same angles on the joints at the same suspension setting. The intermediate shaft can be thought of as just an extension of the differential assembly, as is doesn't move at all except in a rotational sense. If you've ever seen one of those FWD GM transmissions with the big case extension that goes under/behind the engine, it's the same principle, just a different method of application.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2011 23:50
|
|
