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Psion posted:Speaking as someone from the peanut gallery: What I'm reading is that lying down in a mech is something you can do, but rarely should since mobility is really important to not getting flanked and stomped on? Is this about right? It depends on the map, where you're going, and what the TN to hit you is (and what's shooting, of course). Mobility is important, but on many maps, terrain is more so. The "players win initiative" element here makes general mobility even less key, as compared to the ability to influence the range brackets and LoS of the enemy. IF you're going to play around with dropping prone, you do definitely want a good piloting skill, unless emulating the Stooges is on your wish list.
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Jan 23, 2014 18:01
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The game also changes drastically depending on the tech level that you're playing. Pre-invasion IS 'Mechs are generally so slow that the game is dominated by occupying advantageous terrain features and camping them as long as possible. When you start putting XL engines onto 'Mechs then they start to get fast enough that movement modifiers are a more viable defense, so the game is more about figuring out movement paths to take advantage of cover while on the move. I genuinely believe the most fun game of Battletech is the one played between Clan heavy 'Mechs (5/8 movement and tons of guns). Terrain evaluation changes with era too. Parking in partial cover (behind a 1-level hill) can be great in low-tech games because the extra +1 to enemy attacks outweighs the risk of the punch table when damage values (and thus the chances of getting headcapped) are low. In the Clan era that completely changes: better gunnery skills, equipment gunnery modifiers (Targeting Computers and Pulse Lasers), and higher damage weapons (cERPPCs, Gauss Rifles) make partial cover a severe liability instead of a benefit. I remember people maneuvering specifically so that their opponent would be forced into partial cover, just so they could chop their head off with their incredibly munchkin quad-cERPPC + TC + 0-gunnery units.
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Jan 23, 2014 18:14
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Corbeau posted:The game also changes drastically depending on the tech level that you're playing. Pre-invasion IS 'Mechs are generally so slow that the game is dominated by occupying advantageous terrain features and camping them as long as possible. When you start putting XL engines onto 'Mechs then they start to get fast enough that movement modifiers are a more viable defense, so the game is more about figuring out movement paths to take advantage of cover while on the move. I genuinely believe the most fun game of Battletech is the one played between Clan heavy 'Mechs (5/8 movement and tons of guns). PTN uses different rules for partial cover though, he rolls a regular hit and then discounts any leg shots that result.
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Jan 23, 2014 18:18
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/\ Those are the newer rules. You're quite right, Corbeau, but terrain evaluation changes with rules level, too, as partial cover isn't rolled on punch location with a +3 TBH any more. Also, where do you guys find these munchkins? drat.
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Jan 23, 2014 18:19
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The Merry Marauder posted:/\ Those are the newer rules. Thank god. Partial cover was the first thing I house-ruled when I got a chance. I recall that being a pretty common house rule back in the day, but the particular group I ran with for the most part played rules as written (as long as they could break them in half). Including integrating the Mechwarrior rules for Edge. Hey, it's in a book after all!  (Actually Edge was a pretty good game mechanic.) Corbeau fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jan 23, 2014 |
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Jan 23, 2014 18:29
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I think I'm going to take the Anvil ahead near the base of the hill (1721). That will leave me in cover for this turn, with option to climb up or start moving out to the left. Not really sure where else I could go at the moment; I'm still concerned about being spread out from the group and presenting an individual Mech to be shot at. Actually, does 1421 keep me out of LOS next round? That would get me in a bit closer.
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Jan 23, 2014 19:08
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Corbeau posted:Thank god. Partial cover was the first thing I house-ruled when I got a chance. I recall that being a pretty common house rule back in the day, but the particular group I ran with for the most part played rules as written (as long as they could break them in half). Including integrating the Mechwarrior rules for Edge. Hey, it's in a book after all! Well yeah, pretty much everyone played with the same three house rules: Partial cover not giving hits on the punch table, floating criticals (all random criticals used to hit the CT instead of a random location), and, in long-running games, Edge (you can force a reroll when your shiny new mech takes a gauss rifle to the face). The game is much better now that the first two are just regular rules. (There is also a fourth unoffical house rule: Don't use the Warhawk C or other Clan pulse boats. Don't be a dick.)
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Jan 23, 2014 22:25
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Edge is great. I think the Mekwars Legends league gave a rank of Edge to pilots every skill upgrade they had past 5. So clanners and Manei pilots had 1 edge by default, but it worked as a nice salve for when you rolled up a pilot skill boost that did little for a pilot except make his ride more expensive in BV.
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Jan 23, 2014 22:54
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Corbeau posted:The game also changes drastically depending on the tech level that you're playing. Pre-invasion IS 'Mechs are generally so slow that the game is dominated by occupying advantageous terrain features and camping them as long as possible. When you start putting XL engines onto 'Mechs then they start to get fast enough that movement modifiers are a more viable defense, so the game is more about figuring out movement paths to take advantage of cover while on the move. I genuinely believe the most fun game of Battletech is the one played between Clan heavy 'Mechs (5/8 movement and tons of guns). XL Engines make the game so much funner. People used to think I was odd when I ran Lyran Companies that featured 0 assault mechs or assault vehicles, but the kind of carnage you can inflict with nothing but Verfolgers, Barghests, and Flashman is a thing of beauty. Exceptional mobility and overwhelming firepower mixed into one brutal (and squishy!) package.
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Jan 23, 2014 23:39
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Corbeau posted:Thank god. Partial cover was the first thing I house-ruled when I got a chance. Partial cover didn't make great sense then, but it doesn't make great sense now either. Since the terrain absorbs any hit to the leg, why is there a +1 modifier to-hit on top of that? There should either be: (1) a penalty to hit combined with a re-roll of any leg hit, or (2) no penalty to hit, but any leg hit counts as a miss. Option (2) is simpler but I prefer option (1). Having leg hits become misses disproportionately penalizes good pilots, by adding a chance to miss that is independent of gunnery skill.
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Jan 24, 2014 00:44
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KnoxZone posted:XL Engines make the game so much funner. People used to think I was odd when I ran Lyran Companies that featured 0 assault mechs or assault vehicles, but the kind of carnage you can inflict with nothing but Verfolgers, Barghests, and Flashman is a thing of beauty. Exceptional mobility and overwhelming firepower mixed into one brutal (and squishy!) package. XL Engines are fun, yes, but they're not appropriate for every design because of the affore mentioned Squishiness problem. Medium 'Mechs are a perfect example, as they generally don't have the armor to survive a serious fight nor the mobility to avoid taking damage reliably, so compounding the issue with a giant, easily cored engine is a gamble. If you happen to be one of those folks who actually care about the cost of Battlemechs, XL Engines become even less attractive, because an XL can easily double the cost of a 'mech, and sinking all that money into a single unit only to have it go facedown in the dirt because of that expensive engine is doubly painful.
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Jan 24, 2014 01:03
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KnoxZone posted:XL Engines make the game so much funner. People used to think I was odd when I ran Lyran Companies that featured 0 assault mechs or assault vehicles, but the kind of carnage you can inflict with nothing but Verfolgers, Barghests, and Flashman is a thing of beauty. Exceptional mobility and overwhelming firepower mixed into one brutal (and squishy!) package. I do not have much experience with Verfolgers - they are good, from what you say? (I play primarily WiE nowadays, and would like to fit in some of the IS mechs togethers with their clan ones).
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Jan 24, 2014 01:38
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Rorahusky posted:XL Engines are fun, yes, but they're not appropriate for every design because of the affore mentioned Squishiness problem. Medium 'Mechs are a perfect example, as they generally don't have the armor to survive a serious fight nor the mobility to avoid taking damage reliably, so compounding the issue with a giant, easily cored engine is a gamble. Actually the XL costing more thing kind of bugs me. At this point, haven't XL engines been part of the game way longer than standard engines? It seems like a shitload of canon designs make use of them too, so you'd think that if anything standard fusion engines would be becoming more expensive as manufacturers switched to making XL plants. But I'm guessing this would be just the tip of the "poo poo in BT that doesn't make any sense upon examination" iceberg.
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Jan 24, 2014 02:08
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Weissritter posted:I do not have much experience with Verfolgers - they are good, from what you say? (I play primarily WiE nowadays, and would like to fit in some of the IS mechs togethers with their clan ones). The Verfolger might be my favorite battlemech. It has high mobility, exceptional firepower at both long and close ranges, a nice hole puncher in the ER PPC and a good critting tool in the LB-10, good armor, heat efficient, and has a relatively low bv cost. It does have one major weakness in that it has 5 tons of ammo stored in a single XL Engined side torso, but flaws can be fun to deal with too, as nobody likes a total cheese mech. Verfolgers are also primarily produced on Arc-Royal, so they are a chassis you would definitely expect to see in a mixed-tech WiE force.
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Jan 24, 2014 02:12
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Holybat posted:Actually the XL costing more thing kind of bugs me. At this point, haven't XL engines been part of the game way longer than standard engines? It seems like a shitload of canon designs make use of them too, so you'd think that if anything standard fusion engines would be becoming more expensive as manufacturers switched to making XL plants. But really, it's for game balance (some people used to play with cost being the balancing factor before BV) and Holybat posted:But I'm guessing this would be just the tip of the "poo poo in BT that doesn't make any sense upon examination" iceberg.
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Jan 24, 2014 02:27
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Carbolic posted:Partial cover didn't make great sense then, but it doesn't make great sense now either. A minor penalty to hit that rerolls leg shots means that low cover is a liability more than a help against good pilots; see the oldschool low cover rules with the clan targeting computer pulse boats mentioned above.
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Jan 24, 2014 02:55
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KnoxZone posted:The Verfolger might be my favorite battlemech. It has high mobility, exceptional firepower at both long and close ranges, a nice hole puncher in the ER PPC and a good critting tool in the LB-10, good armor, heat efficient, and has a relatively low bv cost. It does have one major weakness in that it has 5 tons of ammo stored in a single XL Engined side torso, but flaws can be fun to deal with too, as nobody likes a total cheese mech. What are other mechs that compliment it in a Star? Timber Wolves? Looking at a heavy Star here.
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Jan 24, 2014 03:02
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Voyager I posted:A minor penalty to hit that rerolls leg shots means that low cover is a liability more than a help against good pilots; see the oldschool low cover rules with the clan targeting computer pulse boats mentioned above. The big problem with old partial cover was that even with a +3 to-hit, you could end up with a better chance to headcap someone because if you did hit, there was a 1/6 chance to hit the head. If you just re-rolled leg hits, that would preserve the relative unlikeliness of a head hit. Unless you are saying that torso hits are as a rule better than leg hits, so re-rolling leg hits would just help concentrate fire. In which case - I see your point, but you don't have to make the partial cover penalty be minor. Heck, they could simply have tweaked the old rule and made partial cover be +3 to hit and you reroll leg hits.
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Jan 24, 2014 03:31
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Weissritter posted:What are other mechs that compliment it in a Star? Timber Wolves? Looking at a heavy Star here. What era and kind of unit are you looking to play? What WiE fields changes pretty seriously as time goes on, and of course the units that are less important get hit by that first. Up through 3084, Mechs in a Keshik formation will still always be either Clantech or Omni, but not always both. The Arctic Fox is a light Omni that WiE built with IS tech, while most of the WiE assaults are non-Omnis built with Clantech, like the Cygnus or the Hellstar. Don't be lame and use a Hellstar, by the way. It's loving boring. Speaking of lights I hope you like the Pack Hunter because that thing is all over the light mech column. Anyway, other units will naturally not be so fortunate. Regular front-line clusters will see an occasional IS mech here or there, mixed in with typical WiE heavies like the Mad Cat, Linebacker, Nova Cat, and so on, but fortunately for your heavy star, most of the mechs they use are Lyran heavy cavalry, which tend to be pretty decent because we know how to build em. So you're looking at things like a Verfolger, Falconer (which I highly recommend as it does a drat fine job by any standard), Barghest, War Dog-03 or Maelstrom for your cluster. The War Dog and Barghest also give you the HGR to play with, which is not the BEST weapon in the game, but I think it's the most satisfying. Something about when you get someone in to the sweet spot at 4-6 hexes and lay 25 points of damage to one location is magic. Now, if you're a second-line cluster, I'd recommend probably just putting your commander in a Guillotine IIc, Gallowglas or Tundra Wolf and then rolling up a LCAF lance because the Mangonel isn't on our RAT, but it's sure all over second-line WiE heavy tables. That thing's a pile of poo poo. Another thing to note is that your heavy star need not all be heavies. When a unit is "heavy" or "light" that's really more of a guideline, and a little variety in the unit weight helps make your unit not just more versatile on the board, but more interesting to play, too. You might field, say, three heavies and two mediums, which would let you keep a solid core of firepower for throw weight, but you'd have a more capable flanking element coming from units like the Ryoken or Fenris, which can manage some serious movement while putting out a lot of damage. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jan 24, 2014 |
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Jan 24, 2014 03:50
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Defiance Industries posted:Anyway, other units will naturally not be so fortunate. Regular front-line clusters will see an IS mech here or there, but fortunately for your heavy star, most of the mechs they use are Lyran heavy cavalry mechs, which tend to be pretty decent because we know how to build em. So you're looking at things like a Verfolger, Falconer (which I highly recommend as it does a drat fine job by any standard), Barghest, War Dog-03 or Maelstrom for your cluster. The War Dog and Barghest also give you the HGR to play with, which is not the BEST weapon in the game, but I think it's the most satisfying. Something about when you get someone in to the sweet spot at 4-6 hexes and lay 25 points of damage to one location is magic. I once found out a good way to lose friends is to bring a lance consisting of 2 Barghest 3Ts and 2 Bushwacker L1s into a game.
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Jan 24, 2014 04:00
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Defiance Industries posted:Another thing to note is that your heavy star need not all be heavies. When a unit is "heavy" or "light" that's really more of a guideline, and a little variety in the unit weight helps make your unit not just more versatile on the board, but more interesting to play, too. You might field, say, three heavies and two mediums, which would let you keep a solid core of firepower for throw weight, but you'd have a more capable flanking element coming from units like the Ryoken or Fenris, which can manage some serious movement while putting out a lot of damage. I was always under the impression to create a unit with similar movement brackets so it is easier to keep them together for focus fire, but your point about flanking is a very good one.
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Jan 24, 2014 07:25
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Weissritter posted:I was always under the impression to create a unit with similar movement brackets so it is easier to keep them together for focus fire, but your point about flanking is a very good one. Well, you probably don't want every single mech in your star to move at a different speed, but unless you want every mech in your star to do the exact same thing, it's not that necessary to make sure they all move at the same speed either. A fire support machine is preferably going to spend a good amount of its time parked at the edge of a forest or behind a hill, lobbing LRMs at long range, while a machine covered in heavy lasers is going to need to get close with an enemy in a hurry. The Night Gyr D is a much better LRM support machine than the Mad Cat or the Vulture because it drops the engine to 4/6 and in exchange, it has room for twice as many missiles and Artemis IV rather than put a giant engine in that it doesn't much need. But it's A configuration, which is for close-range combat, is noticably worse than similar configs on the Mad Cat because it doesn't close distance as well. Plus, having units that move at different speeds and do different things in your star will make it more interesting to play. If all you do is run around in a bunch of mechs that all move at about the same speed and play mostly the same (as many Clan machines do), you'll probably get bored of it much faster. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Jan 24, 2014 |
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Jan 24, 2014 08:26
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I know it's probably more pressure on the players, but I like the more rapid updates.
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Jan 24, 2014 20:22
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hooman posted:I was having a bit of trouble visualising the heightmap so I made a coloured contour map of the terrain. Might help anyone else who couldn't quite get an idea of how the map looked elevation wise. From a couple of pages back, but I have to say how much I love Hooman's remap. I've found that after getting into Battletech it can be a little difficult to figure out elevations sometimes and that colour-coded map is perfect.
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Jan 24, 2014 22:50
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Trundel posted:From a couple of pages back, but I have to say how much I love Hooman's remap. I've found that after getting into Battletech it can be a little difficult to figure out elevations sometimes and that colour-coded map is perfect. Agreed! Most helpful for those of us watching at home.
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Jan 25, 2014 03:41
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dis astranagant posted:It was during one of the Death Commando missions and it was glorious. Still the best mission series.
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Jan 25, 2014 11:20
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Just a (hopefully unnecessary) reminder that the order deadline is tonight!
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Jan 25, 2014 12:42
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So I basically plodded my fat rear end forward. Depending on what happens, I'll either be able to move on the hill next turn or cut back southwest and get ready to start hitting the enemy from the backfield.
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Jan 26, 2014 06:23
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Well, that's certainly a thing.  VVV Very nearly yes PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 22:53
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Mountain lion takes a heashot, pilot dead. 
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Jan 26, 2014 22:55
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Hahahah I can't wait to see this turn.
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Jan 26, 2014 23:26
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The fate of the FWL's Reputation hangs in the balance. 
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Jan 26, 2014 23:40
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Hastilude: Tactical Update 4 “We take the hill,” Vincente decided after a moment’s deliberation. The radio crackled with what may have been static—or may have been Kemper Varas cursing under his breath. Vincente twisted and shattered a small tree with the Albatross’s armored prow. His machine sauntered forward as though the ninety-five ton war machine were merely out for a constitutional walk rather than seconds away from a real fight. “Scouting,” Dr. Sequord announced as her Wraith leapt towards the encroaching Clanners. “That’s a bad idea, Doctor,” Varas cautioned—but his words only seemed to coax the young woman onward. She touched down, waving her right arm Pulse Laser. “They’re on the other side of the woods, but it’d still take a miracle to—” Vincente didn’t hear what the Doctor said next. Her Wraith shuddered as it was wreathed in smoke and fire, and shards of armor flew in lazy arcs. From this distance, the hit hadn’t seemed to severe—but at least one submunition of the enemy Orion’s Autocannon had struck the Wraith near the cockpit. The concussive impact had been enough to silence the doctor, it’d probably take her computer a few moments to compensate. At least, Vincente hoped that’s all it was. “drat it!” Sir Arthur Ryden cursed loudly a moment later as the enemy Wraith crested the top of the hill. “They’re a step ahead of us—the bastards beat us up the hill!” “He’s scouting too,” Varas’s tone was emotionless, he wasn’t concerned in the least. “Send some pressure his way—show him why that’s a terrible idea—and he’ll back down just as fast as the Doctor will. Doctor? I really advise getting out of there. They’re much better formation fighters than we are. If you get yourself isolated they’ll just pick you off.” “Shut up, Varas,” Dr. Sequord hissed through clenched teeth. “Oh, good,” he sounded pleased. “You’re not dead.”  Movement Phase Orion - Attempts to enter hex 2023, but has insufficient MP! Movement ends in hex 2025! Combat Phase Knights Albatross - Holds fire Knights Wraith - Holds fire Knights Anvil - Holds fire Knights Orion - Holds fire Knights Mountain Lion - Holds fire Clan Albatross - Holds fire Clan Wraith - Holds fire Clan Anvil - Holds fire Clan Orion - Fires LB-10X Autocannon at Knights Wraith (1 base + 2 range + 2 movement + 4 enemy movement + 2 light woods - 1 Cluster = 10): rolled 10, 6 submunitions hit Left Arm (13/14 armor remains), Right Torso (17/18 armor remains), Right Arm (13/14 armor remains (TAC)), Right Torso (16/18 armor remains (TAC)), Head (8/9 armor remains), Left Leg (19/20 armor remains)! Clan Grizzly - Holds fire End Phase: Knights Wraith - Through-Armor Critical chance in Right Arm! No critical hit sustained! - Through-Armor Critical chance in Right Torso! No critical hit sustained! - Pilot hit! Must pass a 3+ consciousness test: rolled 6, succeeds! Unit Status:   Knights of the Inner Sphere Mission Objectives: - Win (incomplete) Hastilude Enemy Movement Mods: - Albatross – Ran +1 - Anvil – Ran +1 - Wraith – Jumped +4 - Orion – Ran +1 - Grizzly – Ran +2 Next Orders Due: Tuesday Night!
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Jan 26, 2014 23:53
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That Grizzly looks like it's trying to get up on the outer ridge so it can start sniping at you guys.
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Jan 27, 2014 00:07
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And this is why the LB-10X is such a wonderful bullshit weapon. Throw dice at things until they break.
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Jan 27, 2014 00:51
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Should I potshot at their scout or save the ammo going forward?
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Jan 27, 2014 01:15
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Oh my. I'm not sure if I should go for maximum hilarity or actual effectiveness. Also, was my Clane Honurerere Duele Opponent supposed to be the Orion?
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Jan 27, 2014 01:18
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That was another thing, yeah. We didn't even have to besmirch our honor!
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Jan 27, 2014 01:47
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Clearly, these Clanners have no space honour. I agree on the Grizzly (and also I just realized his bullshit pulse lasers have twice the range of my own), but I'm not sure what we can do about it - he's got a lot of nice open space to move through back there. I suppose we could try to keep the hill between ourselves and him for the moment and then just engage the Orion or Albatross as they move around.
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Jan 27, 2014 01:49
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:That was another thing, yeah. We didn't even have to besmirch our honor! I think we bargained away honor in the batchall.
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Jan 27, 2014 02:54
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