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Tempest_56 posted:As an interesting point, the Battletech MU*s use elements of this in their systems - low calibre ACs fire more often. I believe AC5s fire twice as often, AC2s and MGs fire three times. It actually does a lot to make them more viable. The Pike and the Partisan-AC2 are both actually quite deadly, since they can throw a LOT of fire downrange at a remarkable rate of speed. Making the custom 40 mg assault that everyone always makes actually really really really effective.
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Apr 1, 2011 07:58
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Arglebargle III posted:The way they decided to make every gun have the same RoF is quite weird. The idea that one roll accurately represents a multishot gun is a bizarre handwave, and the fact that missiles roll separately makes it even odder. Coming from a background of primarily playing the Mechwarrior games, it's tough to wrap my head around the idea that a light pulse laser and a PPC are handled the same way in the BattleTech rules. If it were another game system I'd say that they did it just to streamline the rules for speed of play, but with the huge amount of special optional rules for the Battletech system and the general slow speed of play has always made me wonder why the higher rate of fire weapons aren't included in some way. I'm not normally one to think too hard about what in a game system is or is not realistic and I can usually hand wave it away with gameplay explinations, but that's one question that does grab me.
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Apr 1, 2011 08:02
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landcollector posted:Perhaps off-topic, but this thread makes me want to dig out my old MW 2 disc and install it on a Windows 98 equipped computer I have sitting around. Ah, the memories....I had so much fun playing that game way back when. I did just that with MW 3 after reading some of the thread. It runs fine for me in comparability mode on XP. Now I just have to scrounge up a joystick somewhere. First thing I did was stick a ton of machineguns on a medium chassis and go wild. Turns out it works in the computer games, too.
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Apr 1, 2011 08:06
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raverrn posted:I seem to remember mgs firing 4 times a round. Well, until it runs in to something that moves faster than it and has weapons that reach farther than three hexes.
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Apr 1, 2011 09:13
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PoptartsNinja posted:Fanart Contest! I, too, have created some vile fan art in this vein. (I am terrible at drawing  ) I used my prior knowledge of why I would die all the time in the MW games when piloting the Timber Wolf: The giant cockpit is a magnet for every single missile, autocannon, gauss slug and PPC that gets shot at you. Maybe if it was a little smaller, the damage might get spread around a little bit more... but yeah, other than the a smaller head, some roundy torso bits, creepy laser gun mandibles and a shoulder cannon, it's pretty much just another Timber Wolf. So hooray! Can we expect any more bonus content like our foray into Genesis Battletech down the line? And, I already dug around trying to find my MW2 disc, apparently it's lost forever  . To be fair, I have no idea where it actually came from to begin with; it was the first time I'd even heard of Mechwarriors or Battletech. I also dug out my sidewinder force feedback 2, and apparently it's more than a little worse for wear - I think the cable's damaged, and they had the good grace to install tamper proof screws in it, so I'm not sure exactly what I'm gonna be able to do about fixing it... that thing sure made actually shooting anything when stomping around in MW4 much harder, but didn't half make it fun. 
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Apr 1, 2011 11:30
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Arglebargle III posted:The way they decided to make every gun have the same RoF is quite weird. The pen & paper game is already pretty bookkeeping-heavy (especially in times before every home had a printer). In a computer game it could be done, but there's never been an official translation of boardgame rules for computer. MegaMek is the closest thing there is, and it's not a sanctioned game. Car Wars from SJ Games had a system that would have easily supported multiple shots, but the original version of the rules were almost unplayably slow. I'd rather have a few inefficient weapons than a game system that you don't want to play.
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Apr 1, 2011 13:33
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Mastigophoran posted:I, too, have created some vile fan art in this vein. (I am terrible at drawing I have to say I really like the laser mandibles. Also "laser mandibles" is fun to say.
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Apr 1, 2011 13:37
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elitebuster posted:1) Good for you Defiance Industries posted:Yup. My favorite explanation of it, though, was this guy on the official forum insisting it was "Innersphere Inspired Clantech." Defiance Industries posted:Well, until it runs in to something that moves faster than it and has weapons that reach farther than three hexes.
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Apr 1, 2011 13:44
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Arquinsiel posted:While entirely wrong that's..... not actually inaccurate. Weird. Because the people designing them tried giving them a range of 90 meters and said it was kind of retarded how this spray of MG fire suddenly vanished at ranges past where people would be used to gunning down enemies in games like Call of Duty, and felt that it detracted from gameplay more than anything? Even so, in MW4, nobody uses MGs anyway. They simply don't do enough to be worth carrying in a precious slot.
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Apr 1, 2011 14:01
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I use them in single player, but not in multiplayer. They do fine against other mechs because you're firing a machine gun array so it's actually more damage than a medium laser per blast, and the reload rate results in hillarity.
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Apr 1, 2011 14:13
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Dear PoptartsNinja: Since my doctoral defense is this afternoon, and win or lose I mean to celebrate or mourn in grand fashion, you may not get orders in from me until Monday sometime at the latest. If you would like me to knock up some if-then statements I can, or I can pick a Designated Mech Driver for the next turn or two.
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Apr 1, 2011 14:17
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Thanks for the heads up, I'll work something out.
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Apr 1, 2011 14:22
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Arglebargle III posted:The way they decided to make every gun have the same RoF is quite weird. The idea that one roll accurately represents a multishot gun is a bizarre handwave, and the fact that missiles roll separately makes it even odder. Coming from a background of primarily playing the Mechwarrior games, it's tough to wrap my head around the idea that a light pulse laser and a PPC are handled the same way in the BattleTech rules. It's a wargame from an era without computers to do everything for you. It also has lasers that are only effective to several hundred meters. You have to just take it with a truck of salt and let the things that just don't make any sense whatsoever pass you by.
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Apr 1, 2011 15:07
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I was cleaning out some very old CD boxes last night and what did I find? My Mechwarrior 2 for Mac disc and my X-Wing Collector's Edition for Mac disc. 
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Apr 1, 2011 15:32
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I'm guessing the 6/9 heavy is a Linebacker. And if that's the Prime configuration, drat, that's a lotta PPCs the heavy star is packing. 
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Apr 1, 2011 15:59
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anakha posted:I'm guessing the 6/9 heavy is a Linebacker. I suppose that is possible, but I consider that unlikely. Edit: Why is the Linebacker listed under Clan General Battlemechs? landcollector fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Apr 1, 2011 |
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Apr 1, 2011 16:47
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landcollector posted:I suppose that is possible, but I consider that unlikely. In this timeline Clan Widowmaker absorbed Clan Wolf
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Apr 1, 2011 17:19
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Terrifying Effigies posted:In this timeline Clan Widowmaker absorbed Clan Wolf I'm aware of that. Even taking that into account, isn't the mech not supposed to be around yet? In the canon timeline, when did it first begin being produced?
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Apr 1, 2011 18:02
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Pretty sure it was one of the designs created under Kerensky n' Kell in response to some of the lessons learned from the invasion.
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Apr 1, 2011 18:07
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landcollector posted:I'm aware of that. Even taking that into account, isn't the mech not supposed to be around yet? In the canon timeline, when did it first begin being produced? Most canon clan mechs have datestamps (in megamek at least) of 3050, because thats when we first saw them. (I think)
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Apr 1, 2011 18:50
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Volmarias posted:It's a wargame from an era without computers to do everything for you. It also has lasers that are only effective to several hundred meters. You have to just take it with a truck of salt and let the things that just don't make any sense whatsoever pass you by. I'm actually talking about this from a game design perspective, not from realism. This is why I was talking about re-designing and streamlining the rules -- the ruleset is a relic from before game design really took off and became a serious and (somewhat) respected industry. It has clunky design choices that don't really square with either reality or streamlined play. Adding new features to the old ruleset will just weigh it down even more, but the old ruleset doesn't have any particular qualities that make it worth keeping. Herr Gadling is correct when he says adding a rate-of-fire mechanic would weigh down the rules, but his correctness is indicative of the overall problem. Rate of fire is a very common and easily-implemented mechanic in modern wargames. The fact that the current BattleTech rules would be strained in supporting it shows their age and inadequacy. Essentially I agree with you, but I think the logical conclusion is that the rules need a serious overhaul. To make a stupid analogy, you wouldn't bring in an old wooden frigate and install radar and missiles, you would just scrap the poor thing and build a modern missile cruiser. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Apr 1, 2011 |
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Apr 1, 2011 20:02
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Well the main issue with trying to get an overhaul is one that plagues the PC wargaming market too. The product is marketed to a niche group of people, and those people tend to look past the flaws to get to the part they enjoy playing. The people making the games figure that they'll have to spend more money redesigning the rules (tabletop) or making an interface that isn't total poo poo (PC wargaming) and that it probably won't see a higher overall return because their market will still mostly be the same people as before. Would those users probably like the product more? Maybe. But they wouldn't suddenly pay more for it in most cases. Whether their assumption is accurate is another matter entirely, but that does tend to be the general logic. Plus, then you start arguments in your playerbase over which version is "better" or more authentic to the game, etc. And the more complex rules aren't always more well received. Shadowrun updated it's rules to be more realistic (which it needed, since the first few editions all ran on 80s tech), but there are still plenty of people who play 3E because the simpler rules are better for them, and there is a comfort level there when you've been playing it for years.
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Apr 1, 2011 20:12
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anakha posted:I'm guessing the 6/9 heavy is a Linebacker. Didn't poptartsninja mention the clans didn't pack any PPCs? Or was it just a very small number of PPCs?
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Apr 1, 2011 20:16
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DatonKallandor posted:Didn't poptartsninja mention the clans didn't pack any PPCs? Or was it just a very small number of PPCs? "4 in Beta Star, probably less in Gamma." I'm sold on B5 as a Loki Prime, given the ECM, so that's all 4 right there. As I've said, you can make a Crossbow go from 5/8 to 6/9 with an XL engine and actually gain a half-ton in the process. Given that Crossbows are very Steel Viper, I'm sold. I haven't played around with what I'd do with the extra couple tons you could get from Ferrendo; given the symmetrical missile-based configs of the Crossbow, it's not immediately apparent how to tinker with the loadout. Personally, I'm moving on to thinking about Gamma Star. We know Dusk's ride is a Gladiator, and that Gamma "has a defense against aerospace". Now, that could mean that one of the 80 tonners is a Naga, but despite the snake motif, that seems un-Steel Viperish, though it is the Cluster command Star - good place for arty. Could be that the 85 tonner is a Masakari C, but that's just mean, man. Since this is a crack front-line Cluster, it's not likely that either 80 tonner is a IIC, as much as I love those. Are they both Men O' War, or are we back to the Naga?
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Apr 1, 2011 20:27
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm actually talking about this from a game design perspective, not from realism. This is why I was talking about re-designing and streamlining the rules -- the ruleset is a relic from before game design really took off and became a serious and (somewhat) respected industry. It has clunky design choices that don't really square with either reality or streamlined play. Adding new features to the old ruleset will just weigh it down even more, but the old ruleset doesn't have any particular qualities that make it worth keeping. Maybe you wouldn't, but if I wanted to sail my restored frigate around off the coast of Somalia, I might want some protection. Jackassery aside, I understand your point. The system is outdated and slow, but it's still adequate if you don't think too hard and use MegaMek. The thing is, noone has the time or money neccesary to totally remake it. If you can write a new set of rules that satisfy your standards, I'd be glad to use them. At the very least, you might be able to send it in to the current owners of the BattleTech IP. Maybe a fan taking initiative would give them a kick in the pants, so to speak.
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Apr 1, 2011 20:27
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm actually talking about this from a game design perspective, not from realism. This is why I was talking about re-designing and streamlining the rules -- the ruleset is a relic from before game design really took off and became a serious and (somewhat) respected industry. No, not Hitler. Wizkids, that's who 
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Apr 1, 2011 20:36
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Arquinsiel posted:You know who else thought like that?   But they also tried to make it much more profitable for them than realistically possible.
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Apr 1, 2011 20:51
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elitebuster posted:
I think the other problem is that a lot of the 'serious' wargamer market has disappeared out of the back end of the market place - being consumed by computerised wargames (the hard core), and euro games (the not so hard core). Annecodotal evidence time: In the last six months, two groups of my friends that used to be 'serious' wargamers (stuff like panzer blitz and frigate) sat down to play some war games of much lower complexity (Britannia), and then said 'gently caress this we are never doing this again' and went back to power grid. It might also reflect that my friends are starting to have kids and whatever, so the time dedicated to long games is off putting, but I suspect the massive surge of popularity of euro games is coming from somewhere. quote:Personally, I'm moving on to thinking about Gamma Star. We know Dusk's ride is a Gladiator, and that Gamma "has a defense against aerospace". Now, that could mean that one of the 80 tonners is a Naga, but despite the snake motif, that seems un-Steel Viperish, though it is the Cluster command Star - good place for arty. Could be that the 85 tonner is a Masakari C, but that's just mean, man. Since this is a crack front-line Cluster, it's not likely that either 80 tonner is a IIC, as much as I love those. Are they both Men O' War, or are we back to the Naga? Edit: Attempting to be on topic - why couldn't it be a modified naga with the Arrow pods replaced with something else? Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Apr 1, 2011 |
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Apr 1, 2011 21:04
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:I think the other problem is that a lot of the 'serious' wargamer market has disappeared out of the back end of the market place - being consumed by computerised wargames (the hard core), and euro games (the not so hard core). Cthulhu Dreams posted:Annecodotal evidence time: In the last six months, two groups of my friends that used to be 'serious' wargamers (stuff like panzer blitz and frigate) sat down to play some war games of much lower complexity (Britannia), and then said 'gently caress this we are never doing this again' and went back to power grid.
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Apr 1, 2011 21:14
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Annecodotal evidence time: In the last six months, two groups of my friends that used to be 'serious' wargamers (stuff like panzer blitz and frigate) sat down to play some war games of much lower complexity (Britannia), and then said 'gently caress this we are never doing this again' and went back to power grid. It might also reflect the fact that Britannia is boring as gently caress. Possibly unless you happen to be British, which I am not. Most aging grognards in my experience either leave the big stuff set up in their basements or play faster CDGs. Battletech is way too fluffy for them, though. Cthulhu Dreams posted:Edit: Attempting to be on topic - why couldn't it be a modified naga with the Arrow pods replaced with something else? Arrows are fixed equipment on the Naga. If you take them out, what you have there is 80 tons of homebrew moving 5/8. I suppose it could be that.
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Apr 1, 2011 21:19
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Mastigophoran posted:I, too, have created some vile fan art in this vein. (I am terrible at drawing I like it. Well done!
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Apr 1, 2011 21:27
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Since I enjoy large fighting robots I've decided to download MegaMek and drag one of my friends along to play against me, despite neither of us having any experience playing the board game, and my only experience in large robot-fighting is having watched my dad play Mechwarrior and then myself playing the MechAssault titles. Pray I don't have the confidence to join the pilot-pool. Also: This is such an awesome thread 
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Apr 2, 2011 05:58
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Grishka posted:Since I enjoy large fighting robots I've decided to download MegaMek and drag one of my friends along to play against me, despite neither of us having any experience playing the board game, and my only experience in large robot-fighting is having watched my dad play Mechwarrior and then myself playing the MechAssault titles. Go ahead, join the pool! I did, and I certainly have no experience with the board game. Sure I might end up dying a hilarious death, but that's half the fun (not so much fun if said death ends up contributing to a scenario loss though...).
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Apr 2, 2011 06:22
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landcollector posted:Go ahead, join the pool! I did, and I certainly have no experience with the board game. Sure I might end up dying a hilarious death, but that's half the fun (not so much fun if said death ends up contributing to a scenario loss though...). Plus, you have Goon Luck on your side. Hordes of atomic supermen cower in fear of your critical hits and improbable aiming skills. It's like the Force, except without all the prophecy and balance stuff.
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Apr 2, 2011 06:24
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landcollector posted:Go ahead, join the pool! I did, and I certainly have no experience with the board game. Sure I might end up dying a hilarious death, but that's half the fun (not so much fun if said death ends up contributing to a scenario loss though...). and join up with our megamek clusterfucks! Megamek does a really good job of doing everything for you as you slowly understand more and more of the rules. Felime fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 06:26
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Hey Poptarts, I was wondering: will we see any new "IIC" mechs? I mean, non-canonical IIC's, like a Marauder IIC.
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Apr 2, 2011 06:45
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elitebuster posted:Hey Poptarts, I was wondering: will we see any new "IIC" mechs? I mean, non-canonical IIC's, like a Marauder IIC. Here's Hoping for a Bat IIC.
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Apr 2, 2011 06:52
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elitebuster posted:Hey Poptarts, I was wondering: will we see any new "IIC" mechs? I mean, non-canonical IIC's, like a Marauder IIC. I'm holding out hope for a Charger IIC myself. Sadly the Jaegermech is a post-exodus design so no Jaeger IICs until a lot later in the invasion.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:00
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Battlemech Piloting 101 (Part 1 of probably 1) Battlemechs are awesome, this is a proven fact. Giant robots fighting other giant robots is awesome; but a 'Mech is only as good as its pilot, which is why today I'm giving you all a crash course in ‘mech piloting! So, how does one pilot a battlemech? Well, to drive, you have to first understand how a 'Mechwarrior sees the world. To do that, you have to understand the Neurohelmet. I won't go too deeply into what the Neurohelmet does, but basically it translates the brain's signals to and from the inner ear, and uses those to keep a 'Mech's gyro in phase. Or, in even simpler terms: No neurohelmet, no balance. A 'Mech can be operated without a Neurohelmet, but only basic moves are possible and it cannot walk without falling over. The Neurohelmet is also the biggest cause of injuries for pilots: ammo explosions, falls, and other things all cause feedback which disrupts higher brain functions and can cause a pilot to black out. The other reason the Neurohelmet causes so many injuries?  Bitch be heavy, yo! An Inner Sphere Neurohelmet weighs approximately 50 lbs. So, as you can see, the Neurohelmet does not leave a lot of room for, oh… head movement. In fact, it locks the head in place to keep the pilot from breaking connections to the sensors which read his balance. This is good—the helmet will protect his neck from whiplash, but also bad (see above: it’s heavy). Piloting a Battlemech is uncomfortable, piloting one for eight-twelve hours is torture. So, with that in mind, most ‘Mech cockpits don’t provide a lot of visibility. Sure, most of them give a pretty good forward view, but it’s rare to see side windows—the ‘Mechwarrior can’t use them, so a big, high-visibility cockpit just makes for a bigger target. In addition to the Neurohelmet, every ‘Mechwarrior also wears a coolant vest, which circulates ‘mech coolant over the ‘Mechwarrior’s torso. Most burn-related injuries occur to the arms and legs, and several ‘Mechwarriors have had their skin melt into their cockpit seats due to overheating. The Coolant Vest will keep a ‘Mechwarrior alive, but only if it’s intact. It’s lightly armored, but if pierced by shrapnel? Well, ‘Mech coolant is poisonous. It’s also a very sickly shade of pink that makes it very hard to tell if it’s saturated a wound. Now, knowing that a ‘Mechwarrior needs to be able to see behind and to the sides without turning his head, what does a ‘Mech’s cockpit look like? If you guessed something like this:  You’d be wrong. A ‘Mechwarrior—unable to turn his head and unable to see any direction but straight forward is eating an AC/20 to the back before he realizes he’s even dead. Fortunately, the good folks who first designed the venerable Mackie realized this was a horrible, horrible drawback. A real ‘Mech cockpit looks like this:  A central viewport, with a panoramic vision strip—a full 360 degree view compressed into a 60 degree field of vision below it. That should give a ‘Mechwarrior plenty of warning if something oh, the size of a Battlemech sneaks up on him. Unfortunately, it makes spotting smaller targets—like infantry—far more difficult. So, that big forward view must make targeting a breeze too, right? WRONG! All targeting is done on the panoramic vision strip.  Even better? Yes, two crosshairs. You have two arms, and they can be targeted separately. For ease of use, most ‘Mechwarriors ignore this functionality and simply have their computer combine the crosshairs into a single one. This lets them effectively control the ‘Mech with a single joystick, rather than needing to have both hands on two separate joysticks at the same time. This leaves them free to push buttons, turn knobs, and otherwise do all those little things any pilot of any vehicle ever needs to do to keep his vehicle running properly. So, when a pilot moves his joystick, does he get one-to-one movement? Nope. He doesn’t get any movement unless he’s locked on to a target; or engaged his ‘Mech in a turn (by moving both crosshairs out of the ‘forward’ arc). When he’s finally locked onto a target (like that wonderfully flammable forest), a gold dot will blink in the center of his crosshairs and his ‘Mech’s computer will make the adjustments necessary to bring his weapons in-line with the target. This is why firing at multiple targets simultaneously is so difficult—the computer has a hard time deciding which should be the ‘primary’ target and will simply default to the target of the first weapon fired. So, in short, the ‘Mechwarrior does not have any real precision control over his machine. Some ‘Mechwarriors can do amazing things, but only when you take a ‘Mech’s limitations into consideration. Controlling a battlemech is extremely difficult, and requires a lot of training—each individual ‘Mech is different. Piloting an unfamiliar ‘Mech, while not impossible, is extremely difficult. Oh, and because I’m sure this will irritate you? This is what the Clanners are wearing.  Clan Neurohelmets weigh about six pounds, and they have full range of motion (which is why many Clan cockpits even come with, gasp, some peripheral vision! Why, some of Clanners even choose to wear old-fashioned cooling vests when fighting Inner Sphere opponents just to give themselves an extra challenge that they wouldn’t get while wearing a full-body cooling suit (capable of keeping the entire body a comfortable 60 degrees no matter how hot the ‘Mech is running)! Oh, and just to kick the dog a little more? Clan coolant is green and non-toxic. I hear it also tastes just like liquid lime jello. The things I do when I'm too tired to update. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 07:02
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I've learned a lot, but one question remains. Where are these drawings coming from?
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Apr 2, 2011 07:25
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