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So, basically, pilots are poo poo and miss easy shots because their user interface was designed by the most  retard who ever derped up a derp?[edit]No, seriously, it's time to kick the poo poo out of the 1980s legacy bullshit.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:30
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Chronojam posted:I've learned a lot, but one question remains: Where are these drawings coming from? I am the source. In simpler terms, I drew them. Just saying 'me' would've been emptyquoting, though. elitebuster posted:Hey Poptarts, I was wondering: will we see any new "IIC" mechs? I mean, non-canonical IIC's, like a Marauder IIC. Yes we will. The Grasshopper IIC may make an appearance at some point. Chronojam posted:They're not bad or anything Edit: Yes they are, I'm a pretty terrible artist because I don't practice (and don't really have time to). PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 07:33
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^^^ Haha, I assumed so. They're not bad or anything, they're oddly very fitting. Too fitting, so I had to ask. It makes sense. The IS equipment is all no-bid government work, while the Clan gear is poopsocking hobbyists.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:34
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PoptartsNinja posted:I am the source. In simpler terms, I drew them. Just saying 'me' would've been emptyquoting, though. Fuckin' sweet. And one, tiny sperg note, the faceplate on inner sphere neurohelmets is stated in the books to be triangular. 
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Apr 2, 2011 07:50
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elitebuster posted:Fuckin' sweet. And one, tiny sperg note, the faceplate on inner sphere neurohelmets is stated in the books to be triangular. I drew it as I remember it appearing in pictures from the old 'Mechwarrior RPG: which was circular and looking very much like an old-fashioned diving helmet.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:51
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:So, basically, pilots are poo poo and miss easy shots because their user interface was designed by the most I think the modern mech interface isn't what most of these machines, which were designed in the mid-late Star League era, was designed for. The IS neurohelmet is what was being used with the first primitive mechs, like Assault Griffins and 100-ton Mackies. The Star League-era neurohelmet, which the Com Guard (and in the canon timeline, the House militarize by the 3050s) wear. It's not quite Clan sized but it is like 1/4 as big as the old one. Still, these machines are being piloted with equipment and interfaces that were obsolete two hundred years before they were designed.
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Apr 2, 2011 08:23
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PoptartsNinja posted:I drew it as I remember it appearing in pictures from the old 'Mechwarrior RPG: which was circular and looking very much like an old-fashioned diving helmet. I had the same triangular image in mind - kinda like this.
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Apr 2, 2011 08:59
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I've decided to stop  lurking this thread and actually sign up to join the mech list.
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Apr 2, 2011 09:24
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Eeeesh. Okay, I don't think I can actually make a funny "Let's Read" of Far Country, despite some spirited effort in that direction. I'm just going to drop an itemized list of very dumb things in the Prologue instead, and bug out before I get tedious. The Prologue is based in 2510, over 500 years before "proper" Battletech timeline starts. Battlemechs are only just barely beginning to see development and deployment, and there's something called the McAllister Rebellion going on.
So let me summarize: a guy with a gibberish rank as far as the reader is concerned jumps through an ooh-spooky hole in space whose only explanation is that it's just mysterious. Jump accidents that aren't this would never allow this planet to be beyond the limits of human exploration, so the author goes ahead and tells us that this is in imaginary space. The whole story is just barely an iota away from ending with "and it was all a dream!" And then it gets less like Battletech from there. Aliens and a low-tech slog across a planet whose name has accented letters, because bird aliens who've never been contacted before totally use the Latin alphabet and told people to add the funny little hats to the last vowels. But that's okay, because it was all in the imagination, anyway!  Canon problems solved!
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Apr 2, 2011 10:09
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You are a son of a bitch for linking Far Country to Muppet Babies.  You could have at least used the MMBN "We'll just pretend this never happened." image. 
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Apr 2, 2011 10:17
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Defiance Industries posted:I think the modern mech interface isn't what most of these machines, which were designed in the mid-late Star League era, was designed for. The IS neurohelmet is what was being used with the first primitive mechs, like Assault Griffins and 100-ton Mackies. The Star League-era neurohelmet, which the Com Guard (and in the canon timeline, the House militarize by the 3050s) wear. It's not quite Clan sized but it is like 1/4 as big as the old one. Still, these machines are being piloted with equipment and interfaces that were obsolete two hundred years before they were designed. I'm sorry, DI. That user-interface is absolutely unforgivable. Not to mention that, as of the reboot, not even accurate anymore. Seriously, guys. It's okay. We can get rid of the 1980s "Ohhhhhh, everything is so crap and godawful" bullshit without it not being BattleTech. It's okay. Say it with me. "I can let go." ZeeToo posted:
The rest is bad. That? Unforgivable. ShadowDragon8685 fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 12:18
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I just have to mention again how awesome the mech cockpits in Living Legends are. The cockpit shape actually makes a huge difference in how you can pilot something - no upper vision screws over your anti-air options for example. And Vulture cockpits make for great missile boats, but horrible knife fighters. It's something the official mechwarrior games were missing unfortunately - along with the 360 degree view strip (which was actually implemented in Terra Nova by Looking Glass a powered armor sim). DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 12:31
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:Seriously, guys. It's okay. We can get rid of the 1980s "Ohhhhhh, everything is so crap and godawful" bullshit without it not being BattleTech. I dunno - honestly, I like the "everything is godawful" legacy bullshit. To be specific, I kinda dig the notion that several centuries of near-continual warfare under the rule of half-assed feudal houses is not exactly going to result in breathtaking technological innovation; after the first few generations of low-bid contracts, shoddy and half-assed become the norm. The greatest Mechwarriors aren't necessarily the most talented but the ones that are most able to get the most out of their half-assed legacy machines; targeting systems kinda suck because they're running the in-universe equivalent of COBOL and no one's been willing to pony up the cash for the talented programmers to untangle the spaghetti code (and besides which, the only decent CompSci programs are run by techno-Jesuits who don't like to share). I have this notion in the back of my mind that the average IS citizen - at least the ones living outside of the border marches - could honestly give two shits about the constant war by this point; they're just glad that the continual reliance on BattleMechs means there's never going to be conscription. Let the nobles go off and blow the gently caress out of each other, who cares? (I have no idea to what degree, if any, this is contradicted by the fluff. But it sounds right in my head, anyways.)
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Apr 2, 2011 12:44
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ZeeToo posted:[*] They hired Boris Vallejo for the cover art then didn't have him add a scantily-clad woman. Just sayin'.[/list] To be perfectly fair, I don't think there's a single female character who appears for more than a page at a time. ShadowDragon8685 posted:Not to mention that, as of the reboot, not even accurate anymore. The games have never had a canon cockpit setup or UI, because the canon UI is unplayably bad. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 15:40
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I dunno - honestly, I like the "everything is godawful" legacy bullshit. Shouldn't Feudal systems result in really blinged out products being made, because the wealth is concentrated in the hands of so few at the top? If Rich Dude X doesn't like your stuff he can come over and stomp on you, and there is nothing you can do about this so it's an incentive to make something good. I can see your logic for technological innvoation stopping, but not for cheap and nasty - the driver for cheap and nasty is "We need 3,000,000 rifles to equip our infantry divisions and we need them right now because the germans are invading" If you're only going to build, like, 5 - and the guy buying it is planning on using it for 30 years and giving it to his kid, so repeat business is low - the incentive to be quick isn't there Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 15:55
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PoptartsNinja posted:The games have never had a canon cockpit setup or UI, because the canon UI is unplayably bad. Because it's unusuable. Nobody could pilot a 'mech under those conditions, especially that nonsense about targeting being on the 360 panorama strip. Seriously. Even with the same, 3025 level of technology, I can think of about three ways to make that UI actually usable. 1: instead of a goddamned 50-lb neurohelmet, build the neuro-sensing stuff into the cockpit's roof and use a tight, head-hugging harness or a normal helmet with electrodes in the right places. Seriously, it's not like the processing gear needs to be locked around your head any more than your computer mouse has to move on the monitor. 2: Targeting reticules "float". Instead of being only on that 360 strip, let the targeting reticule target on any window/monitor. Primarily you'll be targeting forward, but... 3: Lock the targeting reticule to the pilot's eyes, or at least lock it to his head's rotation so he looks at the target he wants to boom, instead of manipulating his targeting reticule with his joystick. (And if that sounds outlandish, I should point out that is the gunnery set-up in the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter. So it's not exactly far-fetched.) Since I can't believe that stuff that was deployed into combat in the 1980s has become LosTech, I am forced to conclude that the canon depictions of the BattleMech piloting interface are just plain loving wrong, artifacts of 1980s fluff writing that need to be swept away and binned. I can buy the ranges being fudged for playability purposes, but I can't buy that BattleMechs are piloted with such a completely unusable system. Also: 4: Instead of relying on just a coolant vest and letting the pilot's skin melt into his chair.... pump coolant through the goddamned chair. And hey, while we're at it, why not add coolant sleeves for the guy's shins and arms? Oh yeah, because
ShadowDragon8685 fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 16:08
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:1: instead of a goddamned 50-lb neurohelmet, build the neuro-sensing stuff into the cockpit's roof and use a tight, head-hugging harness or a normal helmet with electrodes in the right places. Seriously, it's not like the processing gear needs to be locked around your head any more than your computer mouse has to move on the monitor. ... You just described what the Neurohelmet is. ShadowDragon8685 posted:2: Targeting reticules "float". Instead of being only on that 360 strip, let the targeting reticule target on any window/monitor. Primarily you'll be targeting forward, but... Clans, Redacted, Star-League Era 'mechs. They all do this. The hand-me-downs that are 300 years old and have had their computer systems fixed on the fly by technicians who only understand that: "Well, the board from a Thunderbolt almost fits into this Marauder, good enough" don't work quite so well. But yeah, by 3055 most of this goes away. We just haven't hit the point where ComStar has gone: "Ok, joke's over, here's some stuff that works guys." ShadowDragon8685 posted:Also: You got me on the chair. The reason the vest is just a vest? It's armored, heavy, and very inflexible. It works fine when you're in a 'Mech cockpit, immobile, but it's not something that's easy to move in. Even the thinner Clan coolant suits aren't easy to wear once the coolant is being circulated through them--even if the Clans do have the wherewithall to cut the coolant pressure so it doesn't burst the vest (which is why the Inner Sphere ones are so heavily armored). It really does boil down to: A complete lack of understanding coupled with the only university-level schools in the universe being on Terra (a relic of the Star League which used 'knowledge' as a weapon to keep the Great Houses as far behind the curve as they could, just to maintain power) and... y'know what? I agree with you, I'm not actually defending the 1980s "we don't understand how computers work" legacy bullshit; I'm actually pointing it out so people can laugh at how awful it is. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 16:13
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PoptartsNinja posted:... You just described what the Neurohelmet is. Yeah, except about the weight of your average infantryman or VTOL pilot's helmet instead of that Big Daddy monstrosity. quote:Clans, Redacted, Star-League Era 'mechs. They all do this. The hand-me-downs that are 300 years old and have had their computer systems fixed on the fly by technicians who only understand that: "Well, the board from a Thunderbolt almost fits into this Marauder, good enough" don't work quite so well. I'm sorry, dude. I can buy that the microtechnology required to make a laser with lenses precise enough that it shoots out to ER distances has been lost... I cannot buy the idea that highly-trained BattleMech technicians are, in fact, about as intelligent and skilled as every single loving goon who's ever built a PC from parts ordered from NewEgg. And I absolutely cannot buy that whole "playing around in the scraps of an empire that came before us" schlock. I'm sorry, that's just absolutely non-credible. That UI is retardedly unusable, and the idea that nobody is smart enough at simple computer sciences to develop/redevelop and deploy 1980s technology... Yet they somehow control vast interstellar empires and send armies of men off to fight wars on other planets is just impossible to believe! Remember, poo poo breaks. Without someone who knows how to fix things, those leftover factories aren't going to be producing any BattleMechs. Without someone who knows how to program new BattleMech UIs, software glitches will render all those 'mechs inoperable in about a decade because there's nobody to debug the drat thing, and there's no new parts to install - and at that point, even if you have new parts, you won't have any fuckers capable of installing, calibrating and integrating all the systems. Sorry. That just breaks suspension of disbelief. I can suspend disbelief for the purpose of gameplay balance, but I cannot buy that they're not smart enough to implement a usable user interface. quote:But yeah, by 3055 most of this goes away. We just haven't hit the point where ComStar has gone: "Ok, joke's over, here's some stuff that works guys." Nobody could pilot a 'mech under those conditions. Simply not possible. Any 'mech that anyone tried to pilot into combat under those conditions would be torn to shreds by armor, combat aircraft and infantry. It would be as comparatively clumsy and oafish as a WW1 tank attempting to do battle on a modern battlefield. They'd die before they knew what the hell hit them. quote:You got me on the chair. The reason the vest is just a vest? It's armored, heavy, and very inflexible. It works fine when you're in a 'Mech cockpit, immobile, but it's not something that's easy to move in. Even the thinner Clan coolant suits aren't easy to wear once the coolant is being circulated through them--even if the Clans do have the wherewithall to cut the coolant pressure so it doesn't burst the vest (which is why the Inner Sphere ones are so heavily armored). You don't need to armor a coolant vest. If your MechWarrior is being exposed to small arms fire, something has gone capital-W Wrong, and he should really just keep a flak vest on his chair to put on if he has to eject. You just need a relatively low-pressure coolant suit; you know, kind of like the pressurized suits that modern-day combat fighter pilots wear. Even a Clan suit may not be "easy to wear," but it's not going to be too stiff to pilot in. quote:It really does boil down to: A complete lack of understanding coupled with the only university-level schools in the universe being on Terra (a relic of the Star League which used 'knowledge' as a weapon to keep the Great Houses as far behind the curve as they could, just to maintain power) and... y'know what? I agree with you, I'm not actually defending the 1980s "we don't understand how computers work" legacy bullshit; I'm actually pointing it out so people can laugh at how awful it is. I'm sorry; a "complete lack of understanding" is just not credible. You can't maintain 'mechs, you can't even maintain or build tanks - or even cars, for that matter. If you give someone from the 1860s, with 1860s level of understanding, a factory that produces British WWI Mk I tanks, they will not be able to do anything with it. If you have someone who knows how everything works teach them how to build those Mk 1 tanks, they might be able to do it - but only because they are unskilled labor being taught to do something by rote. They won't be capable of diagnosing any errors in the production process that lead to unusable (and worse, actively hazardous) tanks that roll off the line. They won't be capable of determining which part is faulty if they got a defective part in the pipeline somewhere. And that's a "factory" that consists of a gigantic open space and a lot of primarily hand tools, and they'll still gently caress it up. Anything more complicated - say, the factory that you would need to produce the M1 Abrams tank would be a complete non-starter. Nobody would be able to operate the machine tools, let alone the electronic tools. If some part of the factory - like an overhead crane or hoist, or a massive pneumatic or hydraulic jack, let alone a robot arm - breaks down, chances are someone is getting killed, and that factory is not producing any more tanks on that line, ever. If the gently caress-up is bad enough (such as, say, something starting an electrical fire, or releasing a toxic material,) then the whole factory is going offline for good. Nobody will be able to fix anything. Guess what happens to industrial environments for want of maintenance? They break in very short order. I don't, I cannot, buy the whole "this factory is indestructible and requires no maintenance as long as we keep shoving the right materials in one end, so don't touch it and just keep shoving stuff into it" nonsense. You would need Star Wars droids to have a factory with that level of automation and self-repair capability, including the ability for the droids to repair themselves. It's just impossible... And none of this is even touching on the whole DropShips and JumpShips thing. Guess what likes maintenance even more than factories and BattleMechs? If you said "spacecraft," you would be right, sir! Things don't "go wrong" for no reason, and you can't just "shrug and seal the access corridor" when two guys go in and die because of the hazardous environment. If something is causing a hazardous environment in a corridor, you either fix it now, or the whole goddamned ship will be a death ship in about a day, tops. ShadowDragon8685 fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 16:22
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:Nobody could pilot a 'mech under those conditions. Simply not possible. Any 'mech that anyone tried to pilot into combat under those conditions would be torn to shreds by armor, combat aircraft and infantry. It would be as comparatively clumsy and oafish as a WW1 tank attempting to do battle on a modern battlefield. They'd die before they knew what the hell hit them. Historically, tank drivers and pilots have put up with alot worse, and did just fine in combat. If you look in an M1A1 the mechwarrior setup is better. instead of having a 3 man team just to drive the thing, you have a single person able to view the battlefield, target, turn the vehicle and fire. Of course I'm not mentioning the other 2 people in the tank to load and man the machine gun in front. So going from a 5 man team who is highly specialized to a single person. I'd say that is quite a leap.
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Apr 2, 2011 16:40
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Axe-man posted:Historically, tank drivers and pilots have put up with alot worse, and did just fine in combat. If you look in an M1A1 the mechwarrior setup is better. instead of having a 3 man team just to drive the thing, you have a single person able to view the battlefield, target, turn the vehicle and fire. Of course I'm not mentioning the other 2 people in the tank to load and man the machine gun in front. So going from a 5 man team who is highly specialized to a single person. I'd say that is quite a leap. Tanks also aren't standing upright, and pilots have always had the ability to look around to see what's going on. Having a "head on a swivel" was a survival trait up until the point of reliable aircraft-mounted radar, and is still a highly important qualification. You couldn't drive a tank with your head locked forward. And yes, it was often miserable to pilot early tanks, but not that miserable. Besides, you could probably build an MBT that could be piloted and used by one guy if you had a reliable auto-loader for the gun. Some tanks do have, and they do away with the loader. It would be comparatively simple, if you didn't want that turret to have a 360-degree field of fire. If you only wanted it to fire in, say, about the 90 to 180-degree field of vision of the pilot, you could set him up with a field of monitors and a helmet that projects a reticule into his field of vision. Aim with the head, steer with the feet (to control the treads' rate of movement,) fire and manipulate miscellaneous controls with the hands. It's just that they don't do that because one guy can't fix thrown treads in the field. Tanker crews will tell you that most of their time is not spent in combat, or on patrols. It's spent maintaining their vehicle. Tanks really are like small landgoing boats. That's why they have crews.
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Apr 2, 2011 16:47
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We suspend our disbelief and enjoy stomping around in giant robots.
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Apr 2, 2011 16:53
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:Remember, poo poo breaks. Without someone who knows how to fix things, those leftover factories aren't going to be producing any BattleMechs. Without someone who knows how to program new BattleMech UIs, software glitches will render all those 'mechs inoperable in about a decade because there's nobody to debug the drat thing, and there's no new parts to install - and at that point, even if you have new parts, you won't have any fuckers capable of installing, calibrating and integrating all the systems. I was generalizing, but what it boils down to is: A board breaks. Stops working, etc, etc. You do not have a replacement, but you know a board from a 'Mech you just destroyed will work almost as well. Eventually, the lines start to blur and 'almost as well' slips into the realm of 'doesn't really work the way we thought it would', but the knowledge keeps getting passed down until eventually, you hit periphery-pirate level knowledge where, if something breaks, they are hosed. The rest of the Inner Sphere, at 3025, is just barely above that level. If the Clans had waited another 50 years and the Helm core hadn't been rediscovered, the Inner Sphere would've been fighting back with sticks and rocks and occasionally a wasp that still mostly worked. So what about the cockpit targeting? Well, what happens when your fancy microcircuitry holo-glass gets shot out? You don't have a replacement, and you can't make one--but armored glass works nearly as well. So you could project a hud on it, but you can't quite figure out how to get the crosshairs to translate properly. Eventually, it just boils down to: "leave everything on the secondary monitor", because that's the only one they can guarantee will work. The rest of the system still works fine--unless something in the computer's been crippled, the moment the pilot lets go of a secondary joystick his crosshairs snap back to a single so there is redundancy to make piloting easier. I just think you're stressing a little too heavily over the old "post apocalypse, we understand very little" trope. Realistic or not, it is a staple of this genre and most people don't bat an eyelash at it; even if it is pure handwavium.
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Apr 2, 2011 16:54
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:Besides, you could probably build an MBT that could be piloted and used by one guy if you had a reliable auto-loader for the gun. Stridsvagn 103 was a three man crewed Swedish MBT. If we discard the rearward facing (and driver for driving backwards) radio operator your stuck with the driver and the commander. Both of them had controls for driving and shooting. One of them could control the whole tank in a pinch. Also the first tank with a gas turbine.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:07
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PoptartsNinja posted:I was generalizing, but what it boils down to is:  No, no, no, no, no! NOOOOOO! Technology does not work that way! A circuit board from a Warhammer WILL NOT keep your Marauder working! What did that board do? Even if it controlled the PPCs, which are exactly the same in broad 'mech design strokes, are those PPCs made by the same manufacturer? Do they have the same operating system? No. They do not. And what if it was the leg controller? The same leg sequence that operates a Warhammer's humanoid legs will not keep your reverse-joint Marauder's legs working. The circuitry from a Leopard 2 tank will not work "almost as good" to keep an M1A2 Abrams running. It won't work at all! Technology is simply not plug-and-play like that unless it's specifically designed to be plug-and-play. And even when it is PnP, it isn't! You can't connect a PnP video card with only HDMI cables to a monitor with only DisplayPort inputs without at least an adapter. And making an adapter is a lot harder than making the cord, because you have to understand and translate across two formats! quote:So what about the cockpit targeting? Well, what happens when your fancy microcircuitry holo-glass gets shot out? You don't have a replacement, and you can't make one--but armored glass works nearly as well. So you could project a hud on it, but you can't quite figure out how to get the crosshairs to translate properly. Eventually, it just boils down to: "leave everything on the secondary monitor", because that's the only one they can guarantee will work. And what happens when the secondary monitor gets shot out? Or when it just simply breaks? I'm sorry, you're past the point of criticality here. By presuming a universe that stupid, following it to the necessary conclusion results in a lot of agrarian planets, cut off save for the HPG stations manned by nigh-mythical supermen who understand mathematics more complex than the Pythagorean Theorem, without any technology more complex than the steam piston engine. All of those BattleMechs will be rusting hulks. (And a lot of planets like Tharkad, without the environment to grow food, being wastelands full of frozen/dessicated corpses.) Except that wouldn't happen. Even if scientists were being killed left, right and center, the technical support staff would remain. They're not stupid, and in the absence of the scientists, they'll hit the books to figure things out, be drafted into the role of scientist. It can't happen that way. You either hit the point of no return and have a galactic collapse into a real, genuine dark age, or things don't get that bad. quote:The rest of the system still works fine--unless something in the computer's been crippled, the moment the pilot lets go of a secondary joystick his crosshairs snap back to a single so there is redundancy to make piloting easier. I just think you're stressing a little too heavily over the old "post apocalypse, we understand very little" trope. Realistic or not, it is a staple of this genre and most people don't bat an eyelash at it; even if it is pure handwavium. It requires too much handwavium. It's past the point of disbelief.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:19
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This arguing is pretty pointless. Stuff in Battletech is the way it is, it's not going to change. If you don't like it and can't ignore it then perhaps it's not for you. In the meantime let's all be happy it's not something as stupid as this.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:24
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:It requires too much handwavium. It's past the point of disbelief. Which is why I'm trying to illustrate to people how stupid it all is. I know it's bullshit. You know it's bullshit. That doesn't stop them from polishing it and trying to call it gold.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:25
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Pinguliten posted:Stridsvagn 103 was a three man crewed Swedish MBT. If we discard the rearward facing (and driver for driving backwards) radio operator your stuck with the driver and the commander. Both of them had controls for driving and shooting. One of them could control the whole tank in a pinch. Also the first tank with a gas turbine. The turretless design makes things more complex, because you may need to move the tracks to sight the gun in, so you need things centrally controlled. quote:It can't happen that way. You either hit the point of no return and have a galactic collapse into a real, genuine dark age, or things don't get that bad. All the Sci-fi RPGs from the 80s are like this - Paranoia, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Battletech, Twilight 2000, there are probably a bunch more that I cannot think off of the top of my head. Yeah, it doesn't really work, and it's never happened like that before but that's what people threw down with. Yeah it doesn't make any sense though. We've had centuries of warfare between fedual states before, and it doesn't result in technology going backwards. It's really intresting that all these guys ended up writing the same stuff though.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:26
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:It requires too much handwavium. It's past the point of disbelief. For you. My disbelief is still firmly suspended.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:26
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:And what happens when the secondary monitor gets shot out? Or when it just simply breaks? Well, I'm assuming the secondary monitor is a CRT or something, instead of fancy glass.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:27
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:It requires too much handwavium. It's past the point of disbelief. Not really, you're over-thinking this. Its more logical to assume that they still have the technology base to manufacture and maintain battlemechs. They may no longer have the means or the knowledge of the fancy metallurgical sciences to make stuff like Endo-Steel or Ferro-Fibrous compounds, but they at least know enough of the "basics". ComStar and the Clans have more knowledge of the "specifics".
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Apr 2, 2011 17:28
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PoptartsNinja posted:Which is why I'm trying to illustrate to people how stupid it all is. I know it's bullshit. You know it's bullshit. That doesn't stop them from polishing it and trying to call it gold. Then why not present that as "the way those idiots in the 1980s tried to tell us things were," and then, you know... Paint a picture that's not so drat retarded? The stupid makes me want to weep. It makes me want to break down on my hands and knees, crawl under my computer desk, curl up with the dust bunnies and discarded socks and cry like a little bitch. Frankly, under the conditions you painted, everybody should be at 8/8 scores, except it would be literally impossible to maintain any kind of BattleMech presence whatsoever. Also, I'll note that, as Smith & Tinker are, in fact, the original BattleTech guys, and they're now showing you a much more intelligent and useful 3025 picture, why not just jettison the junk in favor of that finger-licking good 3015 UI?
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Apr 2, 2011 17:29
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:The turretless design makes things more complex, because you may need to move the tracks to sight the gun in, so you need things centrally controlled. You mean in the person of one man? Like exactly how they said it could be operated, by either of two guys, one of whom may in fact actually be superflous? quote:All the Sci-fi RPGs from the 80s are like this - Paranoia, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Battletech, Twilight 2000, there are probably a bunch more that I cannot think off of the top of my head. Yeah, it doesn't really work, and it's never happened like that before but that's what people threw down with. BattleTech and Shadowrun were literally written by the same people. I'll also note that, as of SR3, they stopped assuming nonsense, and as of SR4 they actually started making comparatively easy-to-accept logical extensions of the technology they'd already wrote into canon, such that their 2070 is a 2070 we can actually envision succeeding our 2010, given certain premises that don't require too much disbelief to be suspended. Felime posted:Well, I'm assuming the secondary monitor is a CRT or something, instead of fancy glass. How long do CRT monitors last? Oh yeah, about 30, 40 years at the outside, and they've started to go bad by about 10 years. And as Poptarts said, if the problem is calibration, then it doesn't matter about the monitor type, but the way the information on your monitor correlates (or more accurately, fails to correlate,) with where the real and actual hot stream of electric death goes when you pull the "kill poo poo now" trigger.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:35
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:Also, I'll note that, as Smith & Tinker are, in fact, the original BattleTech guys, and they're now showing you a much more intelligent and useful 3025 picture, why not just jettison the junk in favor of that finger-licking good 3015 UI? Because we're not playing Let's Playing 'Mechwarrior 5. Edit: You'll also notice I have not once made reference to the circle-vision strip, so yes, I'm operating under the assumption that the cockpit controls make sense. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 17:35
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PoptartsNinja posted:Because we're not playing Let's Playing 'Mechwarrior 5. Yet..... Still, point remains. It's more acceptably useful for the setting than the nonsense painted in the 1980s, and breaks far less suspension of disbelief.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:37
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Vipers of Somerset: Tactical Update 6 Movement Phase Random Ace Beta: B2 Thunderchild! Random Ace Gamma: G5 Unknown Assault 5! B3 Unknown Heavy 1 walked to 1911 in the previous turn! L3 Banshee must make a piloting test to stand (5 base = 5): rolled 9, succeeds! B2 Thunderchild must make a piloting test to stand (4 base = 4): rolled 7, succeeds! Combat Phase: L* Cyclops holds fire! L* Cyclops gains 2 heat, sinks 12! Now at Overheat 0! L2 Zeus attempts to start a fire in hex 1510 with Large Laser (4 base + 1 movement + 0 enemy movement + 2 range - 4 immobile target = 3): rolled 3, hits! Needs 7+ to start a fire, rolled 6! No fire started! L2 Zeus gains 9 heat, sinks 17! Now at Overheat 0! L3 Banshee holds fire! L3 Banshee gains 1 heat, sinks 21! Now at Overheat 0! L4 Wolfhound holds fire! L4 Wolfhound gains 1 heat, sinks 10! Now at Overheat 0! T1 Rommel Tank holds fire! B2 Thunderchild holds fire! B2 Thunderchild gains 1 heat, sinks 34! Now at overheat 0! B3 Unknown Heavy 1 fires PPC at L2 Zeus (3 base + 2 movement + 1 enemy movement + 2 range - 1 Clan Neural Implants + 1 partial cover = 8): rolled 11, hit left arm (7/22 armor remains)! B3 Unknown Heavy 1 fires PPC at L2 Zeus (3 base + 2 movement + 1 enemy movement + 2 range - 1 Clan Neural Implants + 1 partial cover = 8): rolled 3, miss! B3 Unknown Heavy 1 gains 32 heat, sinks 34! Now at overheat 0! B4 Unknown Heavy 2 holds fire! B4 Unknown Heavy 2 gains 1 heat, sinks 34! Now at overheat 0! B5 Unknown Heavy 3 holds fire! B5 Unknown Heavy 3 gains 1 heat, sinks 34! Now at overheat 0! End Phase Friendly Fighter Flyover (Turn 4/5) Physical Combat Phase: End Phase: Fire needs 11+ to spread to 1609 (60 degrees from downwind), rolled 7, fire fails to spread! Fire needs 11+ to spread to 1510 (60 degrees from downwind), rolled 5, fire fails to spread! B3 Unknown Heavy 1 must make a feedback test or suffer pilot damage (1 base + 0 cumulative penalty + 0 took damage this turn + 0 fell this turn + 0 weapon destroyed this turn = 1): rolled 7, succeeds! “Sam,” the Colonel called, “can you do something about our new challenger? My secondary display keeps trying to call it a Marauder standing behind an Archer. It keeps trying to target as if they’re both separate machines.” Samantha didn’t reply, idly discharging her large laser in the Star Commander’s general direction. She was half-distracted, entering the ‘Mech into the regimental systems. She should’ve just given it a unique recognition number, that would’ve been the easiest thing. What Rossi would’ve wanted, probably. A pity she hadn’t always served under Rossi, and still felt far more loyalty to her old colonel. With a tap of her fingers, she tagged the ‘Mech the ‘Copperhead’. Sure, it was stooped and bird-like, but that cockpit—that wedge-shaped cockpit was highly distinctive; and with the twin fangs of PPCs in either arm, she felt the ‘copperhead’ moniker far more fitting. As if to prove its deadliness, the ‘Mech let loose a barrage of paired PPCs. One missed wide, but the second caught her Zeus squarely in the left arm. Her ‘Mech reeled as if she’d just taken a hit from a heavy autocannon. “Blake’s blood,” she cursed as her ‘Mech staggered, her armor display painting a stark picture. “Sir, I don’t think we can win this one.” “I won’t withdraw just yet,” the Colonel replied calmly. “If we have to spend our lives to get Hauptmann Steiner—” “To the pilot of the Banshee,” a Clanner cut in over an open broadcast. “ I am Mechwarrior Drang of Clan Steel Viper. You have defeated or slain my sibkin, and I claim vendetta against you. We shall see how well you fare against an armament that equals your own.” “Kempner,” Rossi started, “what’s your status—” “To the cowardly ‘Mechwarrior cowering behind the woods,” another Clanner cut in. “I am Mechwarrior Azael of Clan Steel Viper. Although it brings me no satisfaction to hunt such a cowardly dog, your destruction is necessary. Would that Mechwarrior Knox were still with us, for hunting you is a task more suited to his talents.” Samantha watched the Thunderchild’s left arm twist into a lewd gesture, directed downfield—presumably towards the speaker. “Sir,” Corporal Hunter called, his voice carrying a soft hint of panic. “My computer’s tagged this thing a Longbow!” “Get in close,” Rossi called, “if it’s packing LRMs, once you’re inside their arming range—” “Sir,” Samantha pointed out, “their weapons are superior. We can’t assume their LRMs even have an arming range. They may run with them pre-armed, like the more suicidal Dracs do!” Enemy Forces: B2 Unknown Medium 2: Waiting to Move! B3 Unknown Heavy 1: Runs 6 to 1814! B4 Unknown Heavy 2: Runs 6 to 0921! B5 Unknown Heavy 3: Walks 5 to 0818! G1 Unknown Assault 1: Remains Stationary! G2 Unknown Assault 2: Remains Stationary! G3 Unknown Assault 3: Remains Stationary! G4 Unknown Assault 4: Remains Stationary! G5 Unknown Assault 5: Waiting to Move! Mission Objectives Defeat Beta Star! (Partial Victory) Survive! (5/20 Turns) (Total Victory)  Ace Note: Previous turn's movement will be in black, current turn's movement will be in green! Map Note: A height 1 tunnel extends from hex 0912 to 1213. It is large enough to accommodate the Rommel, but not large enough for a Battlemech. Due to heat concerns, the Rommel may not fire its weapons while within the tunnel. Special Guest Note: Tank front arc is the triangle. CP-10-Z Cyclops Weight: 90 tons (Assault) HD A(S): 9/9 (3/3) LT A(S): 13/20 (19/19) LT R A(S): 8/8 CT A(S): 23/30 (29/29) CT R A(S): 11/11 RT A(S): 6/20 (19/19) RT R A(S): 8/8 LA A(S): 0/10 (11/15) RA A(S): 10/10 (15/15) LL A(S): 17/17 (19/19) RL A(S): 17/17 (19/19) Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None Heat Sinks: 12 Movement: 4/6/0 Mechwarrior: Pilot 5, Gunnery 4 Mechwarrior Name: Colonel Aldo Rossi Mechwarrior Player: WarLocke Mechwarrior Status: OK! Armament: Autocannon 20 – RT (Heat: 8, Ammo: 18, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) LRM 10 – LT (Heat: 4, Ammo: 11, Range: (L:21 M:14 S:7 Min:6), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – RA (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – LA (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: DESTROYED!) SRM 4 – CT (Heat: 3, Ammo: 25, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Critical Damage: None! Notes: 2 hands ZEU-6S Zeus Weight: 80 tons (Assault) HD A(S): 9/9 (3/3) LT A(S): 18/18 (17/17) LT R A(S): 6/6 CT A(S): 26/26 (25/25) CT R A(S): 9/9 RT A(S): 18/18 (17/17) RT R A(S): 6/6 LA A(S): 22/22 (13/13) RA A(S): 22/22 (13/13) LL A(S): 24/24 (17/17) RL A(S): 24/24 (17/17) Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None Heat Sinks: 17 Movement: 4/6/0 Mechwarrior: Pilot 5, Gunnery 4 Mechwarrior Name: Leutnant Samantha Clover Mechwarrior Player: Mukaikubo Mechwarrior Status: OK! Armament: Large Laser – LT (Heat: 8, Range: (L:15 M:10 S:5), Status: OK!) LRM 15 – RA (Heat: 5, Ammo: 7, Range: (L:21 M:14 S:7 Min:6), Status: OK!) Medium Laser (REAR) – LT(R) (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – CT (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Autocannon/5 – LA (Heat: 1, Ammo: 20, Range: (L: M: S: Min:), Status: OK!) Critical Damage: None! Notes: No hands BNC-3S Banshee Weight: 95 tons (Assault) HD A(S): 9/9 (3/3) LT A(S): 4/30 (20/20) LT R A(S): 5/10 CT A(S): 30/40 (30/30) CT R A(S): 17/17 RT A(S): 20/30 (20/20) RT R A(S): 10/10 LA A(S): 11/21 (16/16) RA A(S): 4/21 (16/16) LL A(S): 23/26 (20/20) RL A(S): 26/26 (20/20) Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None Heat Sinks: 21 Movement: 3/5/0 Mechwarrior: Pilot 5, Gunnery 4 Mechwarrior Name: Staff Sergeant Major Gerhart von Kempner Mechwarrior Player: Angry_Ed Mechwarrior Status: OK! Armament: Autocannon/10 – LT (Heat: 3, Ammo: 18, Range: (L:15 M:10 S:5), Status: OK!) PPC – RT (Heat: 10, Range: (L:18 M:12 S:6 Min:3), Status: OK!) PPC – LA (Heat: 10, Range: (L:18 M:12 S:6 Min:3), Status: OK!) SRM 6 – RT (Heat: 4, Ammo: 15, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – RT (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – RT (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – RT (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – RT (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Small Laser – HD (Heat: 1, Range: (L:3 M:2 S:1), Status: OK!) Small Laser – CT (Heat: 1, Range: (L:3 M:2 S:1), Status: OK!) Critical Damage: None! Notes: 1 hand WLF-1 Wolfhound Weight: 35 tons (Light) HD A(S): 9/9 (3/3) LT A(S): 11/11 (8/8) LT R A(S): 5/5 CT A(S): 16/16 (11/11) CT R A(S): 6/6 RT A(S): 11/11 (8/8) RT R A(S): 5/5 LA A(S): 12/12 (6/6) RA A(S): 12/12 (6/6) LL A(S): 16/16 (8/8) RL A(S): 16/16 (8/8) Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None Heat Sinks: 10 Movement: 6/9/0 Mechwarrior: Pilot 3, Gunnery 2 Mechwarrior Name: Corporal Richard Hunter Mechwarrior Player: Spencerb Mechwarrior Status: OK! Armament: Large Laser – RA (Heat: 8, Range: (L:15 M:10 S:5), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – RT (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – CT (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – LT (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Medium Laser (REAR) – CT(R) (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Critical Damage: None! Notes: 1 hand Rommel Tank: Weight: 65 tons (Heavy) Front A(S): 40/40 (7/7) Left A(S): 39/39 (7/7) Right A(S): 39/39 (7/7) Turret A(S): 40/40 (7/7) Rear A(S): 26/26 (7/7) Movement: 4/6 Tracked Crew: Driving 5, Gunnery 4 Tank Crew Twelve: Sergeant Bonnie Hammer, Private Sarah Montesquieu, PFC John Blucher Player: Raverrn Motive System Damage: None! Critical Damage: None! Armament: Autocannon/20 – Turret (Ammo: 20, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) LRM 5 – Turret (Ammo: 24, Range: (L:21 M:14 S:7 Min:6), Status: OK!) Small Laser – Front (Range: (L:3 M:2 S:1), Status: OK!) Notes: Enemy Status Beta Star B1 Battle Cobra Critical Damage: Destroyed! Notes: Counts as rough terrain! B2 Thunderchild Tonnage: 50 Target: None Critical Damage: Right Arm Destroyed! Pilot Name: Mechwarrior Knox (severe concussion [3+ consciousness]) Pilot: Piloting 4, Gunnery 3 Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: Unknown Notes: Equipped with ECM, becomes 'hidden' when out of Line of Sight! B3 Copperhead Tonnage: 60 Target: L* CP-10-Z Cyclops, L2 Zeus Critical Damage: None! Pilot Name: Star Commander Winter Breen Pilot: Piloting 4, Gunnery 3(2) Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: Unknown Notes: B4 Unknown Heavy 2 Tonnage: 65 Target: WLF-1 Wolfhound Critical Damage: None! Pilot Name: Mechwarrior Azael Pilot: Piloting 4, Gunnery 3 Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: Unknown Notes: B5 Unknown Heavy 3 Tonnage: 65 Target: BNC-3S Banshee Critical Damage: None! Pilot Name: Mechwarrior Drang Pilot: Piloting 4, Gunnery 3 Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: Unknown Notes: Equipped with ECM, becomes 'hidden' when out of Line of Sight! Gamma Star G1 Unknown Assault Tonnage: 80 Target: None Possible! Critical Damage: None! Pilot Name: ??? Pilot: Piloting 2, Gunnery 1 Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: Unknown Notes: G2 Unknown Assault Tonnage: 80 Target: None Possible! Critical Damage: None! Pilot Name: ??? Pilot: Piloting 4, Gunnery 3 Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: Unknown Notes: G3 Unknown Assault Tonnage: 85 Target: None Possible! Critical Damage: None! Pilot Name: ??? Pilot: Piloting 4, Gunnery 3 Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: Unknown Notes: G4 Unknown Assault Tonnage: 90 Target: None Possible! Critical Damage: None! Pilot Name: ??? Pilot: Piloting 4, Gunnery 3 Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: Unknown Notes: G5 Unknown Assault Tonnage: 95 Target: None Possible! Critical Damage: None! Pilot Name: Star Colonel Dusk Pilot: Piloting 4, Gunnery 3 Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: Unknown Notes: PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 17:53
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:It's more acceptably useful for the setting than the nonsense painted in the 1980s, and breaks far less suspension of disbelief.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:53
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PoptartsNinja posted:Because we're not playing Let's Playing 'Mechwarrior 5. Too bad that last time I heard, development was still frozen because of Harmony Gold, eh? It's too bad that the trailer being "actual gameplay" is almost certainly utter bullshit.
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Apr 2, 2011 17:58
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Not much action this turn, although considering your objective that's a good thing. Still, challenges and mechs are piling up, might be time to actually close and kill somebody.
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Apr 2, 2011 18:18
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Man, I think its going to start going very badly for the Steiners here. Your armor isn't going to hold out for very long once you have to engage the clan mechs. Plus next turn is only 6/20, not great odds. Good luck! Also ShadowDragon just stop with your tangent. You are having an argument with somebody who agrees and nobody else cares.
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Apr 2, 2011 18:19
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Artificer posted:Too bad that last time I heard, development was still frozen because of Harmony Gold, eh? Hence why I said "yet." I really, really wish Arq had gone forward with his "gently caress Harmony Gold out of their IP rights to the Unseen" trick and blackhorsed the whole thing behind HG's back. quote:It's too bad that the trailer being "actual gameplay" is almost certainly utter bullshit. Not necessarily. If you have an older PC, you might have no idea what modern hardware is capable of. I feel confident my new PC can run a game with that kind of graphics and level of detail. On the other hand, it's also a known (and sleazy) trick to record a cutscene which takes place in the game and label it "in-game footage." Well, yeah, it is... But it's still not actually representative of gameplay. For a really, really good example of this, look at the King Arthur game's trailer. Yes, that is in-game footage; it's the game-launch video. Yes, they did render it using the game engine, but no, you do not ever get to control an army that loving huge at once in-game. So... I'd put the odds at 50-50... Canopus250 posted:Also ShadowDragon just stop with your tangent. You are having an argument with somebody who agrees and nobody else cares. Feel free to go play in traffic next time you get the urge to imperiously deliver me an order, kay? Thanks, bye!
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Apr 2, 2011 18:22
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