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Felime posted:hahaha, why in god's name did they stick 16 heat sinks on there? Just in case you get shot at by Infernos or have to fight on extreme temperature worlds, I suppose. This isn't even close to the worst L1 mech though. 4/6/0 with 11.5 tons of armor is a fairly solid amount of speed and protection for a heavy mech in Level 1 play, and an AC-10 is a decentish weapon in L1 play. It's just not great.
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Apr 26, 2011 04:49
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Zaodai posted:What if you jumped from another building you were using as a stepping stool? Would that be allowed (because you could technically make the jump) Yes, that's allowed. You can also intentionally fall with jets, so height isn't a problem. There're actually rules for orbitally dropping Battlemechs... but pretty much only the Clans do that since it's basically suicide with level 1 tech. Leperflesh posted:Along the lines of "there's a rule for everything", what are the rules for mechs (with hands, I assume) climbing up buildings manually? It's possible, but it's a piloting check with some pretty bad penalties and a chance of loving up and falling badly. Also, fast 'Mechs are faster climbers than slow 'Mechs, because it's still all based on MP.
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Apr 26, 2011 04:52
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MJ12 posted:4/6/0 with 11.5 tons of armor is a fairly solid amount of speed and protection for a heavy mech in Level 1 play, and an AC-10 is a decentish weapon in L1 play. From an objective standpoint, you're right. An AC/10 is never useless, and that much armor will keep it in the fight a good long time. From a design standpoint, though, it's drat near unforgivable. Over 10 percent of its total mass just flushed straight down the toilet. Why would you ever, EVER choose to field a Hoplite over a Griffin, Enforcer, or Hunchback variant?
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Apr 26, 2011 05:21
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Second line, backwater hillbilly units have to drive something, and all the good mechs go to units that don't suck. BattleTech really doesn't stand up well to scrutiny when you try to figure out "Why don't they just do X?". If people always used the optimal mechs, you'd have maybe 15 types in total. The price of diversity is that a lot of those mechs are worthless poo poo. So people choose to use a Hoplite for the same reason none of the in-universe mech companies figured out they could just build a 100 tonner with a bunch of ER Large or ER Medium lasers + Guass rifles and have it rape everything horribly. Because if the fights weren't a bit gimped sometimes, they wouldn't be very interesting.
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Apr 26, 2011 05:31
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Zaodai posted:Second line, backwater hillbilly units have to drive something, and all the good mechs go to units that don't suck. The Hoplite is fielded by Wolf's Dragoons, they field it pretty much exclusively.
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Apr 26, 2011 05:34
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Artificer posted:You know, for Battletech rules, that makes a surprising amount of sense. Yeah, I'm surprised that the rules actually make sense in this case. I would have expected something like what Warlocke and Leperflesh thought would happen.
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Apr 26, 2011 05:36
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PoptartsNinja posted:The Hoplite is fielded by Wolf's Dragoons, they field it pretty much exclusively. Well to them, it's a challenge! They are basically Clan warriors, afterall. I just use the second-line unit excuse to justify the existence of pretty much any of the mechs that are god-awful. I can't think of any reason any of the factions would willingly buy crappy mechs unless it was that or attacking on foot.
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Apr 26, 2011 05:39
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Mary Annette posted:From an objective standpoint, you're right. An AC/10 is never useless, and that much armor will keep it in the fight a good long time. From what I have heard, FASA and now Catalyst don't like putting optimized designs in TROs, because that takes away the fun of making custom variants and whatnot. The gold standard for them is a design which is somewhat flawed, but still useful in its intended role, for the most part. When they get it right, they get some pretty nice designs, like the Celestial series, all of which are fully optimal (the Archangel pays a lot for the compact fusion + gyro combo and doesn't get too much out of it, for example) but both of which are solid, powerful mechs which play great with each other. The Hoplite manages that relatively successfully, as it's got its flaws but it's still pretty useful. And the HOP-4B version is quite solid, since it's a PPC + LRM-15 combo. My in-universe theory would be that the Hoplite was originally intended to be built as the -4B standard, but some problems with licensing from Magna Hellstar or whatever meant they couldn't source the PPC to build it, so they had to make do with the AC-10. So they were like "gently caress it, let's just stick an AC-10 in there, downgrade the LRMs, and pretend we intended to make something like this." Zaodai posted:Well to them, it's a challenge! They are basically Clan warriors, afterall. I think a thing is about how the Battletech design system doesn't account for random engineering fuckups and just shows you what's theoretically possible at any technological level. So a lot of the suboptimal designs end up suboptimal because designing a fully optimal mech isn't as easy as Heavymetal Pro or Solaris Skunk Werks would make you think it is, since there's a whole lot of balancing and whatever you have to do and there aren't that many engine manufacturers and every engine, gyro, and myomer company's stuff has its own subtleties and quirks. It's explicitly laid out by the developers and writers that there are subtle differences between, say, a Magna Hellstar and a Parti-Kill Heavy, even though both have identical game stats (they're both PPCs) and they may not be compatible with the other's T&T software, mountings, and whatnot... and even if they are there might be bugs. MJ12 fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Apr 26, 2011 |
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Apr 26, 2011 05:43
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Zaodai posted:Second line, backwater hillbilly units have to drive something, and all the good mechs go to units that don't suck. All very true. Examples of interesting gimpiness include the Marauder's bulls-eye ammo bin or the Warhammer's weak legs or the Shadow Hawk's stunning mediocrity. I don't hate the Hoplite because it's bad, lots of cool mechs are bad. I hate the Hoplite because it's lazy.
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Apr 26, 2011 05:51
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Also a lot of mechs at L1 play are not in their intended configurations, but a jury-rigged one that makes do with what tech is available.
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Apr 26, 2011 05:54
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I think my problem is that I'm a min-maxing bastard, terrible at tabletop games, AND my introduction to the series is MekTek's Mercenaries release. My favorite designs are generally expensive as all HELL, and that's before my compulsive desire to dig into the building rules to see what I could do (like replacing one of the LRM's with here; if you're already going with the fantastically silly idea of five Ultra AC/5's, I see no reason why not to drop one).
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Apr 26, 2011 05:55
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PoptartsNinja posted:Also, fast 'Mechs are faster climbers than slow 'Mechs, because it's still all based on MP. I always thought time in BattleTech was wonky. You can only fire a weapon once every 10 seconds, but in that 10 seconds a mech can go from lying prone to standing and most likely still move several dozen metters. 
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Apr 26, 2011 06:27
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Weapons fire more often than that, it's just the damage is from an abstracted 10-second volley. Hence pulse lasers being easier to 'hit' with, they fire more volleys in that 10-second period. I mean, it still doesn't make that much sense, but just roll with it. raverrn fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Apr 26, 2011 |
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Apr 26, 2011 06:40
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raverrn posted:Weapons fire more often than that, it's just the damage is from an abstracted 10-second volley. Hence pulse lasers being easier to 'hit' with, they fire more volleys in that 10-second period. Nah, that makes sense. Automatic ballistic weapons can fire a burst during that 10 second period and you already mentioned pulse lasers. I can imagine single shot ballistic weapons needing that 10 seconds to load another round and wait for the barrel to cool as to not overheat the weapon. Energy weapons would need time to cycle for the exact same reasons.
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Apr 26, 2011 07:17
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There were "dueling rules" for Solaris matches where each turn became less abstract (one turn = 2.5 seconds ) and you began to worry about actual cooldowns for each weapon, you could try to dodge enemy attacks, jumpjetting maneuvers like in the video games existed, plus hexes and heat were expanded so you could measure more accurately and track heat over each 2.5 second period more specifically instead of "Well you built up 20 heat and could sink 26 so you are good to go fresh again." But when you've got multiple units fighting at once it becomes harder to manage in a tabletop setting, and when we're waiting on instructions from a set of guys on the internet, it would become agonizingly slow.
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Apr 26, 2011 07:52
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Mary Annette posted:From a design standpoint, though, it's drat near unforgivable. Over 10 percent of its total mass just flushed straight down the toilet. Why would you ever, EVER choose to field a Hoplite over a Griffin, Enforcer, or Hunchback variant? It's a mech for first-time drivers with the major aim of protecting the pilot from his own errors of judgement. It only has long-range weapons (no need for ugly melee up close). It has only ammunition weapons meaning it has to retreat once it's low on ammo. It has heavy armor, especially relative to its armament, meaning it's low on priority target list. It's fast enough to stay with the pack but not so fast the pilot can accidentally find himself alone. It's got excessive cooling capacity to prevent shutdowns if the pilot panics and does something stupid. Nothing fancy, just basics all around. Simply put, it emphasizes the survivability of the pilot in favor of almost everything else. It's also not that badly armed when you compare it to other 55-tonners. The worst L1 TRO mech is hard to pick, but there are a few candidates above all others. Banshee is pretty horrible in all aspects. Shadow Hawk is the mech I love to hate: 19 points of damage, if everything hits? That is a stroke of genius. Charger is a classic in bad design ideas. But the absolutely worst performing units I've ever had the displeasure of commanding are Rifleman and Jagermech. There is simply nothing you can do with those two to make them worthwhile. Rifleman has too little ammunition and way too few heat sinks. Jagermech has too much ammunition, and the main armament sucks. Both are also woefully underarmored and lack the speed to keep range. In practice I've never managed to accomplish anything remarkable with either. From other sources the design for nickname "Amarises Folly" was impressive. It was a 100-ton mech with 10 PPCs and 10 medium lasers, 1/2 movement speed and 10 heat sinks. The design spec was "enough firepower to wipe out a company of mechs at once or your heads will roll". It's also badly armored and expensive as hell. Unfortunately this design was never manufactured before the reign of the Usurper was put to an end.
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Apr 26, 2011 08:12
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Jagermech gets my vote. I mean it's just something awful. I think someone earlier in the thread said it best: '33 tons of weapons, 31 of which suck' raverrn fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Apr 26, 2011 |
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Apr 26, 2011 08:47
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Hob_Gadling posted:Banshee is pretty horrible in all aspects. That's why Defiance Industries ingeniously camoflaged House Steiner's assault-weight murder wagon as one!
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Apr 26, 2011 08:54
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The Jagermech is still incredibly effective in its intended role: forcing aerospace assets to take piloting checks. A failed piloting check on an aerospace unit is pretty much the end of that Aerospace unit. Unfortunately, people don't field Aerospace very often, and the Jagermech is woefully unprepared to deal with anything else. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Apr 26, 2011 |
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Apr 26, 2011 13:49
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Worst L1 mech? Oh, the choices. FLC-4N Falcon - Not a bad mech, but suffers a horrible sin - twin mounted machine guns, with a ton of MG ammo in the center torso. To make it worse? The MGs are mounted rear-facing to make them even less useful. ASN-101 Assassin - All the mediocre fun of an Assassin, but giving up 20% of it's armor to mount more small lasers. VND-1AA Vindicator - Take the solid and reliable Vindicator. Increase the engine size to 5/8/5. Give it the armor of a 20 ton mech. HOP-4C Hoplite - As previously stated. SHD-2D Shadow Hawk - Okay, you know what we did to the ASN-101? Yeah, let's do that to a Shadow Hawk! Let's add another medium laser and another SRM2 (with an extra ton of ammo!) in exchange for making a 55 ton mech with only 72 points of armor on it. So what if there's only 5 points of armor on the legs, arms, it'll rock! CGR-1A1 - The classic! CGR-1L - A better nomination, a variant on the classic Charger that mucks it up as bad. Upgrades the weapons so that it's an 80 ton mech with 1xLL/2xML, which is better. If it didn't have significantly less armor than a Jaegermech.
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Apr 26, 2011 14:04
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Operation Himinbjörg: Tactical Update 3 Current Weather Conditions: Heavy Fog: All hexes cost 2 additional mp to enter (does not apply to jumping ‘Mechs), all energy-weapon attacks suffer a +1 penalty to hit. Full Moon Night: All weapon attacks suffer a +2 penalty to hit, this penalty is reduced against targets over 20 heat. Movement Phase Combat Phase: H1 Valkyrie holds fire! H1 Valkyrie gains 5 heat, sinks 11! 0 heat builds up! H2 Commando holds fire! H2 Commando gains 2 heat, sinks 10! 0 heat builds up! H3 Assassin holds fire! H3 Assassin gains 7 heat, sinks 10! 0 heat builds up! H4 Javelin holds fire! H4 Javelin gains 6 heat, sinks 11! 0 heat builds up! End Phase Physical Combat Phase: None! End Phase: Hail’s Javelin took off again, bringing a smile to Snow’s lips. He kicked down on the throttle pedals that controlled his ‘Mech, feeling the heavy resistance of the bar that signaled the ‘Mech would be moving at maximum running speed; then pushing past it to kick in the jump jets. The Assassin may be tiny, but it was graceful for a ‘Mech its size. In only a few moments, Snow found himself sailing above the fog. From here, Tharkad City looked like a collection of buildings rising out of a cloud. He felt as though he were a mile in the air, not a mere hundred meters. It was an enjoyable feeling until another wave of heat flooded his cramped cockpit. Carefully, Snow feathered his jets as he brought his Assassin in for a landing. He cringed as the slower Javelin passed right in front of him, angling for the same landing zone—what he wouldn’t give for the ability to coordinate with the rest of his lance. Still, he was far enough back to easily divert to a safer landing zone, the impact of his medium ‘Mech doing little more than cracking pavement and causing some minor body damage to a parked aircar. The quiet voice on his radio became more insistent, perhaps a bit more panicked. They were running out of time. Enemy Forces: S1 STG-3G Stinger: Remains stationary! S2 STG-3G Stinger: Remains stationary! S3 Scorpion Light Tank: Remains stationary! S4 GAL-100 Galleon Light Tank: Remains stationary! Mission Objectives Heavy Snow Nightclub (green) Building Must Not Take Damage! Avoid damaging residential (blue) buildings! (0/20,000,000 c-bills in damage sustained) Destroy the Statue of Duke Lestrade (hex 1214) to draw LOKI away from the Heavy Snow Nightclub! (2 turns remaining!) Await Further Objectives!   H1 VLK-QA Valkyrie Weight: 30 tons (Light) HD A(S): 8/8 (3/3) LT A(S): 12/12 (7/7) LT R A(S): 2/2 CT A(S): 14/14 (10/10) CT R A(S): 4/4 RT A(S): 12/12 (7/7) RT R A(S): 2/2 LA A(S): 9/9 (5/5) RA A(S): 9/9 (5/5) LL A(S): 12/12 (7/7) RL A(S): 12/12 (7/7) Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None Heat Sinks: 11 Movement: 5/8/5 Mechwarrior: Pilot 4, Gunnery 4 Mechwarrior Name: Rain Mechwarrior Player: Dominus Caedis Mechwarrior Status: OK! Armament: LRM 10 – LT (Heat: 4, Ammo: 12, Range: (L:21 M:14 S:7 Min:6), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – RA (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Critical Damage: None! Notes: 1 hand (Left) H2 COM-2D Commando Weight: 25 tons (Light) HD A(S): 6/6 (3/3) LT A(S): 6/6 (6/6) LT R A(S): 3/3 CT A(S): 8/8 (8/8) CT R A(S): 4/4 RT A(S): 6/6 (6/6) RT R A(S): 3/3 LA A(S): 6/6 (4/4) RA A(S): 6/6 (4/4) LL A(S): 8/8 (6/6) RL A(S): 8/8 (6/6) Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None Heat Sinks: 10 Movement: 6/9/0 Mechwarrior: Pilot 4, Gunnery 4 Mechwarrior Name: “Sleet” Mechwarrior Player: Terror Storm Mechwarrior Status: OK! Armament: SRM 6 – CT (Heat: 4, Ammo: 15, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) SRM 4 – RA (Heat: 3, Ammo: 25, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Medium Laser – LA (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Critical Damage: None! Notes: 2 hands H3 ASN-21 Assassin Weight: tons (Class) HD A(S): 8/8 (3/3) LT A(S): 10/10 (10/10) LT R A(S): 2/2 CT A(S): 12/12 (12/12) CT R A(S): 4/4 RT A(S): 10/10 (10/10) RT R A(S): 2/2 LA A(S): 6/6 (6/6) RA A(S): 6/6 (6/6) LL A(S): 6/6 (10/10) RL A(S): 6/6 (10/10) Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None Heat Sinks: 10 Movement: 7/11/7 Mechwarrior: Pilot 4, Gunnery 4 Mechwarrior Name: Snow Mechwarrior Player: Capskye Mechwarrior Status: OK! Armament: Medium Laser – RA (Heat: 3, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) LRM 5 – RT (Heat: 2, Ammo: 24, Range: (L:21 M:14 S:7 Min:6), Status: OK!) SRM 2 – LT (Heat: 2, Ammo: 50, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Critical Damage: None! Notes: 1 hand (Left) H4 JVN-10N Javelin Weight: 30 tons (Light) HD A(S): 6/6 (3/3) LT A(S): 8/8 (7/7) LT R A(S): 2/2 CT A(S): 8/8 (10/10) CT R A(S): 2/2 RT A(S): 8/8 (7/7) RT R A(S): 2/2 LA A(S): 6/6 (5/5) RA A(S): 6/6 (5/5) LL A(S): 8/8 (7/7) RL A(S): 8/8 (7/7) Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None Heat Sinks: 10 Movement: 6/9/6 Mechwarrior: Pilot 4, Gunnery 4 Mechwarrior Name: Hail Mechwarrior Player: TildeATH Mechwarrior Status: OK! Armament: SRM 6 – RT (Heat: 4, Ammo: 30, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) SRM 6 – LT (Heat: 4, Ammo: -, Range: (L:9 M:6 S:3), Status: OK!) Critical Damage: None! Notes: 2 hands Enemy Status S1 STG-3G Stinger Tonnage: 20 tons Critical Damage: None! Pilot: Piloting 3, Gunnery 4 Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: 2 Medium Lasers Notes: S2 STG-3G Stinger Tonnage: 20 tons Critical Damage: None! Pilot: Piloting 4, Gunnery 3 Heat: 0/30 Overheat Penalty: None! Armament: 2 Medium Lasers Notes: S3 Scorpion Light Tank Tonnage: 25 tons Critical Damage: None! Pilot: Driving 5, Gunnery 4 Armament: Autocannon/5, Machine Gun Motive System Damage: None! Notes: S4 GAL-100 Galleon Light Tank Tonnage: 30 tons Critical Damage: None! Pilot: Driving 3, Gunnery 4 Armament: Medium Laser, 2 Small Lasers Motive System Damage: None! Notes: PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Sep 28, 2013 |
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Apr 26, 2011 14:17
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Awww, poor Commando can't JJ everywhere. He must feel so left out. 
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Apr 26, 2011 14:33
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Hob_Gadling posted:It's a mech for first-time drivers with the major aim of protecting the pilot from his own errors of judgement. It only has long-range weapons (no need for ugly melee up close). It has only ammunition weapons meaning it has to retreat once it's low on ammo. It has heavy armor, especially relative to its armament, meaning it's low on priority target list. It's fast enough to stay with the pack but not so fast the pilot can accidentally find himself alone. It's got excessive cooling capacity to prevent shutdowns if the pilot panics and does something stupid. Nothing fancy, just basics all around. Simply put, it emphasizes the survivability of the pilot in favor of almost everything else. It's also not that badly armed when you compare it to other 55-tonners. It's interesting to note that another "training" mech, the CLN-7V Chameleon, does the exact opposite; it's undersinked for its energy-based loadout, in order to hammer home the importance of heat management early. The fluff goes as far as saying that it mounts two MGs just to make the threat of an ammo cookoff "more real" to trainees. EDIT: Dot system looks good to me, PTN.
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Apr 26, 2011 14:39
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The fireworks start next round I guess. At least three of our mechs should be in range and able to nail the statue. I think the Commando has to play anchor for this one. Find somewhere with decent sightlines and provide a base of fire. With the fog it can't move well enough to rack up decent movement targeting penalties for protection.
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Apr 26, 2011 15:09
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Like the new movement feature. Two turns to destroy the statue? Guess that puts to rest the silly notion of trying to snipe it with lasers or long range fire. Would be a hilarious way to fail the mission, though.
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Apr 26, 2011 15:26
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KnoxZone posted:Like the new movement feature. It will still explode in like one turn anyway??
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Apr 26, 2011 15:30
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Affi posted:It will still explode in like one turn anyway?? Not necessarily. If the Javelin jumps to 1016 or 1117, he'll need 7s. The Assassin needs a 7 for the MLAS from 1216. I imagine if they whiff they'll walk up and kick it, though that lacks a certain elegance.
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Apr 26, 2011 15:46
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Affi posted:It will still explode in like one turn anyway?? Most likely. It is still an immobile target, so the TH won't be *that* bad, but there are enough negative modifiers (jumping, range, trees, darkness, fog) to make it a consideration.
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Apr 26, 2011 15:46
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LeschNyhan posted:The fireworks start next round I guess. At least three of our mechs should be in range and able to nail the statue. I think the Commando has to play anchor for this one. Find somewhere with decent sightlines and provide a base of fire. With the fog it can't move well enough to rack up decent movement targeting penalties for protection. I read that as the statue being unable to move well enough, not the Commando.
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Apr 26, 2011 15:48
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I really like the dots. Much easier to read than the old maps. You could probably even get away with not putting up the white text for where mechs used to be, since the dots show the origin pretty well. Looking at the key (which is excellent because it tells me which friendly mech is which, something that's also been occasionally hard to figure out), I think the enemy color is just a bit too close to the H3's colors; I'd suggest using something else (maybe orange?).
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Apr 26, 2011 18:53
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just remember to stay at least 1 hex empty apart. so you don't aoe each other when you DIE to the duke, yes the statue is actually an atlas.
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Apr 26, 2011 20:12
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Was there almost an accidental DFA there, or was it just fluff?
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Apr 26, 2011 20:14
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I agree that we probably don't even need the old positioned marked due to the movement dots. Maybe give them a thicker outline if it's the first dot if that would help people.
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Apr 26, 2011 20:18
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KnightLight posted:Was there almost an accidental DFA there, or was it just fluff? Players sent the same orders and PTN asked them to not crash into eachother. So fluff 
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Apr 26, 2011 20:27
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Slaan posted:Awww, poor Commando can't JJ everywhere. He must feel so left out. This really confused me for half a moment.
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Apr 26, 2011 20:34
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LeschNyhan posted:The fireworks start next round I guess. At least three of our mechs should be in range and able to nail the statue. I think the Commando has to play anchor for this one. Find somewhere with decent sightlines and provide a base of fire. With the fog it can't move well enough to rack up decent movement targeting penalties for protection. If it ever gets to them, the Commando will eat those tanks alive.
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Apr 26, 2011 21:26
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Affi posted:Players sent the same orders and PTN asked them to not crash into eachother. So fluff So player incompetence is simulating radio silence? That's pretty cool actually. PTN should have done an accidental DFA though.
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Apr 26, 2011 22:01
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Longinus00 posted:So player incompetence is simulating radio silence? That's pretty cool actually. PTN should have done an accidental DFA though. If only to simulate an awesome scenario. Then again I suppose just making an extra roll to see if you could avoid the hit would be an ok idea too.
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Apr 26, 2011 22:10
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Longinus00 posted:So player incompetence is simulating radio silence? Ordering your guys to occupy the same square is "incompetence"? What are you, the Tiger Mom of giant robot games?
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Apr 26, 2011 22:13
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TildeATH posted:Ordering your guys to occupy the same square is "incompetence"? What are you, the Tiger Mom of giant robot games? Oh, don't worry, Bowman, I'm just waiting for you to take some damage so I can blame everything that goes wrong in the Lyran Commonwealth on you personally.
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Apr 26, 2011 22:16
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