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Erm, does nobody else think that Kurita troops offering a honourable duel to mercenaries is a little bit weird?
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Jan 25, 2011 20:49
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*sigh* Okay, putting aside for the moment the debate that we're all being cowards for keeping our options open and the precise numerically optimal strategy because it is kind of harshing my buzz,quote:Erm, does nobody else think that Kurita troops offering a honourable duel to mercenaries is a little bit weird? This, and his rank, continues to make me wonder if maybe there isn't another recon lance heading for the scene. Of course, IIRC the Kill All Mercenaries order hasn't been sent out yet.
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Jan 25, 2011 20:53
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Tarquinn posted:Erm, does nobody else think that Kurita troops offering a honourable duel to mercenaries is a little bit weird? Takashi Kurita isn't crazy from a stroke yet.
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Jan 25, 2011 20:54
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Tarquinn posted:Erm, does nobody else think that Kurita troops offering a honourable duel to mercenaries is a little bit weird? I mentioned that a few pages back, and warned that they don't consider Mercs to be honorable and would have no problem backstabbing you during the duel. Also, I wish PTN would keep his mech listing up to date then if he's going to keep changing the opposing mech and the loadout. It's hard to plan strategy when poo poo is changing every turn. In the most recent turn it's listed as a Grand Dragon, with a Dragon variant loadout for an entirely different variant.
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Jan 25, 2011 20:54
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Mukaikubo posted:*sigh* Okay, putting aside for the moment the debate that we're all being cowards for keeping our options open and the precise numerically optimal strategy because it is kind of fun-killing, It's like the 24-hour news cycle on crack. We're all having fun, as long as no one takes it personally, I think we're okay. Though I'm tempted to play my pilot as an honest-to-God coward, just for kicks. Or Maniac from Wing Commander...
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Jan 25, 2011 20:55
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Which year is this battle supposed take place? I must have missed it.TildeATH posted:Or Maniac from Wing Commander... If I get a mech with jumpjets, I try to make at least one "death from above" attack (and fail miserably). Tarquinn fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 20:56
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TildeATH posted:It's like the 24-hour news cycle on crack. We're all having fun, as long as no one takes it personally, I think we're okay. Though I'm tempted to play my pilot as an honest-to-God coward, just for kicks. ...are we talking WC1 or WC4 Maniac? 
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Jan 25, 2011 20:57
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Tarquinn posted:Which year is this battle supposed take place? I must have missed it. 3032, just before the clan invasion. Also, don't forget this is also an alternate reality so poo poo may end up being vastly different.
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Jan 25, 2011 20:58
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KnoxZone posted:3032, just before the clan invasion. Also, don't forget this is also an alternate reality so poo poo may end up being vastly different. Whoops, maybe Kurita is crazy after all. His orders were to kill captured mercenaries so I'm sure bushido honor would still dictate a fair fight on the battlefield right? But there are no wolf's dragoons in this timeline so he probably wouldn't have made the proclamation anyway...
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Jan 25, 2011 21:00
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KnoxZone posted:3032, just before the clan invasion. Also, don't forget this is also an alternate reality so poo poo may end up being vastly different. 17 years to go then (unless PTN speeds things up). I wouldn't really call that "just before". Longinus00 posted:Whoops, maybe Kurita is crazy after all. His orders were to kill captured mercenaries so I'm sure bushido honor would still dictate a fair fight on the battlefield right? But there are no wolf's dragoons in this timeline so he probably wouldn't have made the proclamation anyway... Well, lets just ask our host: PoptartsNinja, what's Kurita's stance (and policies) regarding mercenaries? Tarquinn fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 21:01
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Tarquinn posted:17 years to go then (unless PTN speeds things up). I wouldn't really call that "just before". They decided to invade early, without sending Wolf's Dragoons as a scout force or anything. They're hitting the periphery... right about now, actually. 
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Jan 25, 2011 21:04
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Would it be possible to bluff them into an awkward position by pretending to go along with the duel? Either way, I don't suppose lying to their faces would hurt.
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Jan 25, 2011 21:05
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Mukaikubo posted:They decided to invade early, without sending Wolf's Dragoons as a scout force or anything. They're hitting the periphery... right about now, actually. Nevermind then.
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Jan 25, 2011 21:05
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:Would it be possible to bluff them into an awkward position by pretending to go along with the duel? Either way, I don't suppose lying to their faces would hurt. Can't hurt, until one of these four mechwarriors ejects and survives the battle, and shows up a year down the road in an Atlas, pissed as hell. I have a soft spot for minor villains that become major villains later because of PC actions. 
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Jan 25, 2011 21:06
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Mukaikubo posted:Can't hurt, until one of these four mechwarriors ejects and survives the battle, and shows up a year down the road in an Atlas, pissed as hell. They're Draconis. If the Mechwarrior games I've played are any indication, the Draconis Combine are all bastards and you should never, ever feel bad about ruining their day.
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Jan 25, 2011 21:08
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Cythereal posted:They're Draconis. If the Mechwarrior games I've played are any indication, the Draconis Combine are all bastards and you should never, ever feel bad about ruining their day. Never forget Kentares
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Jan 25, 2011 21:10
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:Would it be possible to bluff them into an awkward position by pretending to go along with the duel? Either way, I don't suppose lying to their faces would hurt. I'm less worried about one of the warriors surviving to come back pissed off and more worried about the entire force in the area becoming pissed off that you lied to them and then shot their commander in the back. At that point I think any sort of decency or battlefield honor they may have shown previously (which is exploitable) will be replaced with using everything they have to try and hunt you down and kill you like... well, dogs, fittingly. Rather than getting a more Sorting Algorithm of Evil style mission progression, we're likely to just face a zerg rush of all their strongest trying to blow up our dropships, strand us on the planet and kill us as brutally as possible.
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Jan 25, 2011 21:11
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Mukaikubo posted:...are we talking WC1 or WC4 Maniac? I'm thinking WC1, some time around Special Ops (or Secret Mission or Subversive Sauce or whatever the expansion was called) 1. Not Biff, though now that I think of it, Biff may be an even better inspiration for a Mechwarrior pilot. "Fire your PPCs, buttface!" Imagine that as your lance commander...
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Jan 25, 2011 21:12
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Axe-man posted:Never forget Kentares Makes sense that Space Japan would commit Space Nanking. I was mainly thinking back to MW2: Mercenaries (my intro to BattleTech), where the second mini-campaign, after one where you help the DC suppress a popular rebellion, is helping some rebels free a world from Draconis occupation. When the Draconis realize they're losing, they start burning the planetary capital to the ground and raping every woman they can find among the civilians. That's the prelude before the rebels lend you a Stalker and send you into the capital. Then there's the later mission in the game where the Draconis send you into Clan space to steal a Kodiak for study. I prefer to keep the Kodiak and wipe out the Draconis force in the final mission of that arc while joyriding in said death machine. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 21:14
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Cythereal posted:They're Draconis. If the Mechwarrior games I've played are any indication, the Draconis Combine are all bastards and you should never, ever feel bad about ruining their day. I'm not a huge lore buff like some of you other guys so have their been many pro DC or CC books? I'd image they're usually the antagonists since it's harder to mary sue with them compared to davion or steiner due to the cultural backgrounds of the writers.
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Jan 25, 2011 21:17
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Zaodai posted:I'm less worried about one of the warriors surviving to come back pissed off and more worried about the entire force in the area becoming pissed off that you lied to them and then shot their commander in the back. At that point I think any sort of decency or battlefield honor they may have shown previously (which is exploitable) will be replaced with using everything they have to try and hunt you down and kill you like... well, dogs, fittingly. Hey, maybe if we do a "good" enough job, we can be the inspiration for the Kill Mercenaries Order! Already we leave our mark on history! 
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Jan 25, 2011 21:20
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Well, in some of them the Combine is a bit more enlightened, modern Space Japan, and they get some good guy points because Victor Davion is boning the Coordinator's daughter. After saving her from a ninja. Basically the Combine becomes House Davion's quirky ethnic sidekick, which is sort of pro-Combine.
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Jan 25, 2011 21:20
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Wait! I am from... history! An Abridged History of the Inner SpherePart 4 - Crazy Like A Fox Hanse Davion, nicknamed 'The Fox' for his cunning military mind and ambition, began conducting a series of military exercises in 3026. He discovered, to his surprise, that with proper organization and the integration of infantry and conventional armored units and artillery support into Battlemech platoons and battalions, he had the ability to quickly move massive amounts of firepower downfield, a practice that would form the basis for RCTs, Regimental Combat Teams. Additionally, with the increased resources following his alliance to the Lyrans, he had at his disposal a powerful fleet of jumpdrive-equipped transport vessels and military dropships. Realizing that decisive action would do him more good than waiting for the trinary aliance aligned against him to act, the Fox began to scheme. In 3028, Melissa Steiner and Hanse Davion married. At their reception, as he fed his new bride a slice of cake, Prince Davion made his famous declaration: "Wife, in honor of our marriage, in addition to this morsel I give you a great prize. My love, I give you the Capellan Confederation!" At these words, RCTs swarmed over the Capellan border from FedSun territory. Over the course of seven successive waves of troops and materiel, Davion had succeeded in seizing over half the Confederation's territory in a matter of months. The Fourth Succession War was on. Despite their territorial gains, the need for Jumpships to carry such massive amounts of materiel and troops required the subsidization of civilian craft. The FedSuns economy suffered as trade became limited to essentials only. The Draconis Combine took advantage of the troop redployments to raid worlds bordering the FedSun and Lyran halves of the Commonwealth, inflicting further economic harm. As 3029 dawned, it would be ComStar who moved to end the conflict, delivering an ultimatum to Hanse Davion: end the war, or ComStar would shut down all HPG relays in FedSun territory. The war continued for several weeks more as Davion assets cemented their hold on Capellan worlds, but Hanse himself was satisfied with his recent conquests and acquiesced. Arguably, it was the Free Worlds League who came off the best in the conflict, Captain-General Janos Marik taking the opportunity to occupy Capellan worlds on his side of the border under the guise of 'military aid.' With the Capellans almost neutered as a military threat, the next decade was largely spent as the various powers girded themselves for the next inevitable conflict. Federated Commonwealth forces begain joint exercises between Steiner and Davion-controlled units, cementing the RCT concept into official and standing doctrine. In response to Davion's blitzkrieg across Capellan lines, the Draconis Combine's Gunji-no-Kanrei Theodore Kurita restructured the Draconis Combine Mustered Soldiery. Command protocols and regulations were loosened up, and commanders were rewarded for personal initative more than honorable conduct. In a shocking move, Kurita signed an agreement with ComStar, ceding Combine worlds to independent governance, particularly in the Rasalhague district, in exchange for long-lost Star League military technology and Battlemechs to supplant the aging and undergunned Combine armored units. On March 13, 3034, the Free Rasalhague Republic, with backing from ComStar, declared independence from the Draconis Combine, with Theodore Kurita agreeing to pull all DCMS forces from the area. However, many traditionalist DCMS commanders refused to leave, despising Theodore for his progressive ways and refusing to acknowledge the newly-formed Kungsarmé as a legitimate military force. In a bold move to keep relations between the new Republic and the DC friendly, Theodore declared all DCMS commanders remaining in the Free Rasalhague Republic ronin, and dispatched loyalist troops into Rasalhague to assist the Kungsarmé in uprooting them. Though appreciated, the FRR was desperate for aid against the ronin, and made many hasty and ill-advised contracts with mercenary organizations. Though the ronin were driven out, the treasury was drained due to poor negotiation, and the people of the Republic learned to despise mercenaries. In 3039, Hanse Davion launched the second thrust of his bid for dominance. Steiner and Davion forces assaulted the Dieron district of the Draconis Combine, hoping that the DCMS had exhausted itself in Rasalhague. Though the first wave succeeded, the second wave would meet strong resistance, in the form of DCMS mechwarriors astride League-era Battlemechs. Theodore Kurita led his troops right into the jaws of the Commonwealth advance, gambling that Davion would not risk a protracted war against better-equipped troops; he hoped that Davion would believe he had more League-era equipment than he actually did. His roll of the dice worked, and Davion settled for a white peace. The War of 3039 changed little, and for the next ten years border skirmishes continued at a relatively stable and manageable pace. But all that changed on August 13th, 3049, when the Blood of Kerensky began to push across the Periphery, making first engagement against the Kell Hounds mercenary unit. The Clan Invasion had begun. Agent Interrobang fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 21:22
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I get the definite impression that House Davion is "House Good Guys" to just about everyone. They're always portrayed as having the most powerful and professional military, best technology, best leaders, freedom of religion etcetera. The writers spend so much time fellating the Davions they seem to have forgotten that the best power-hungry, uncaring warmonger is still a power-hungry, uncaring warmonger. The only perspective I can really get behind in BattleTech is the mercenaries who have no problem calling out the lovely feudal lords for being... lovely feudal lords.
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 21:55
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I find it somewhat hard to believe you can get behind any idea, as you always seem to be irritated by the viewpoint of someone in a given situation. I'm not saying you're wrong about how House Davion is portrayed (you're not), just that you seem to look on the negative side of any discussion you get into, which is kind of sad. For what it's worth, ComStar and the ARDC also tend to get the Good Guy treatment, and the Free Worlds League generally doesn't get bad press, they just take care of business with workmanlike efficiency.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:03
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Are there any other fellow Kurita lovers out there? These last few pages are making me
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Jan 25, 2011 22:07
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That's actually a good point, the Free Worlds League seems like genuine good guys because they mind their own business. But that means they aren't featured often. I think, Zaodai, that wargames tend to focus on assholes who start wars and knock over their little friends' sandcastles. The game would probably be boring if it was PeaceTech: Giant Robots Cooperate in the Sparkling Utopia of the Far Future. But it leaves a lot of assholes doing rear end in a top hat things as protagonists. I'm perfectly capable of 'sperging about things that are awesome, I guess you just haven't seen that.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:11
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Slaan posted:Are there any other fellow Kurita lovers out there? These last few pages are making me Well, Kurita got some love when they got all that jaguar territory and when comstar gave them lostech right? I wish the Capellan Confederation got a bit more indepth treatment. From the little lore I know they're kind of a blend of China and Israel. Unfortunately they border the protagonist faction (FedSuns) so the only time they really get written about is when bad things are happening to them. VVV Yea I know about how the 4th succession war went. Longinus00 fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 22:17
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Longinus00 posted:I wish the Capellan Confederation got a bit more indepth treatment. From the little lore I know they're kind of a blend of China and Israel. Unfortunately they border the protagonist faction (FedSuns) so the only time they really get written about is when bad things are happening to them. See above. It also doesn't help that most of the books I've read basically cast Sun-Tzu Liao as sci-fi Fu Manchu.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:18
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The FWL don't "mind their own business". They're very opportunistic, and they'll fight as hard as anyone. None of the houses would be "good guys" in the sense that they're pacifists or "for the people" style systems. They're not the Federation from Star Trek, building a civilization on the power of diplomatic tree hugging faggotry and magic infinite energy sources. That said, the Great Houses also aren't the Imperium of Man where everything is poo poo and you do as you're told and then get your head ripped off by an alien for your trouble. The lives of the common man in the Inner Sphere were generally pretty good. You had a job, and plenty of food, TV, good place to sleep, etc. It wasn't toiling in the fields for 12 hours then going home to eat turnip gruel in your dirty hovel like feudalism in the dark ages. The average person in the IS was probably better off than the average person living in the US today, given the crappy economy and the like. I also don't recall (off the top of my head) any of the Great Houses having a draft or required military service by the populace. Regarding your other point, you're probably right. I don't specifically track down your posts or anything, so I don't have a large enough sample size to make a fair, unbiased judgement. I had just noticed it popping up in a few of the LPs I read lately. [EDIT] And yeah, the Cappellans tend to get poo poo on from every direction. Fed Com kicked their asses, the FWL stole half their land, and they're evil Space China. Or more accurately, they're the Tongs in space. It's not like they're educated, innovating old school China. They're drug trafficking, thieving, scheming Chinese gangsters. Zaodai fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 22:22
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Since I previously posted this in an rather oblique manner I want to make clear I'd like to volunteer to be a pilot. E-mail is ilkhanfel at gmail dot com .
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Jan 25, 2011 22:29
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Zaodai posted:I also don't recall (off the top of my head) any of the Great Houses having a draft or required military service by the populace. I know the Lyran Commonwealth military definitely has a conscript army/aristocrat officer corps going. However good the average IS citizen has it, the Successor States are supposed to be a negative force. They're consistently presented as a degenerate political system, clearly responsible for great evils and a definite decline from the days of yore. Except when the authors forget and start writing Mary Sues. I actually like the BattleTech setting a lot, but it seems like the authors sometimes forget that it's a fundamentally dystopic premise.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:32
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Arglebargle III posted:However good the average IS citizen has it, the Successor States are supposed to be a negative force. They're consistently presented as a degenerate political system, clearly responsible for great evils and a definite decline from the days of yore. Except when the authors forget and start writing Mary Sues. I actually like the BattleTech setting a lot, but it seems like the authors sometimes forget that it's a fundamentally dystopic premise. Yeah, pretty much this. I like Battletech because no matter WHO you're rooting for, absolutely nobody is a 'good guy.' I don't like Hanse Davion because he's THE NICEST GUY NO REALLY HE JUST CONQUERS NATIONS WITH RANDOM BLITZKRIEGS AS A HOBBY, I like him because he's an entertainingly duplicitous and conniving bastard. Same reason I like Marthe Pryde.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:35
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Zaodai posted:[EDIT] And yeah, the Cappellans tend to get poo poo on from every direction. Fed Com kicked their asses, the FWL stole half their land, and they're evil Space China. Or more accurately, they're the Tongs in space. It's not like they're educated, innovating old school China. They're drug trafficking, thieving, scheming Chinese gangsters. A lot of the stereotyping that goes on for the different houses isn't necessarily due to how the actual state is set up, but because of their leaders, and this ends up coloring how people view the entire system. The Capellans are a good example of this. The Confederation itself isn't really all that bad (certainly no worse than the other Houses), unfortunately it gets saddled with loving batshit insane rulers who do things like start wars with everyone around them, which results in them getting stomped flat and then everyone is all "haha loving Liaos".
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Jan 25, 2011 22:36
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Zaodai posted:And yeah, the Cappellans tend to get poo poo on from every direction. Fed Com kicked their asses, the FWL stole half their land, and they're evil Space China. Or more accurately, they're the Tongs in space. It's not like they're educated, innovating old school China. They're drug trafficking, thieving, scheming Chinese gangsters. And this a zillion times. As a student of Chinese history and culture it's painfully obvious that the Capellans are Fu-Manchu caricatures. I would really like to see a genuine future state based on the Chinese Empire. If the Capellan Confederation was a meritocratic bureaucracy under an Emperor obsessed with keeping the nobility down (like the Chinese Empires of history) it would be a genuinely interesting and different Successor State. Even having the Liaos obsessed with domestic distractions would lend them a little more genuine Chinese flavor. And it would make sense with the most densely populated state, too. I also always thought it was weird that the Capellan symbol is a guy holding a sword that looks either Japanese or Central Asian. The Chinese traditionally made straight swords. Hell, they have a leader named Sun-Tzu Liao, which if you speak any Chinese you know is a ridiculous name. It would be like naming your kid "Professor Aristotle" Sure you could name a kid Aristotle, but you would probably leave off the title. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 22:41
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I agree with that, and I generally like the FWL because their leadership (in my opinion) tends to have a very "gently caress you, and the horse you rode in on. Except we already blew it up." attitude. My point was more that any governmental system is going to end up loving people over to some extent, because they're run by people and that is what people do. The fact that in this case it's feudalism doesn't really have the people worse off than if they were getting equally hosed over by a diplomatically elected president. So as far as a being a setting specifically set up for guys to kill each other with giant robots goes, the serfs don't really have it so bad, even in the crappiest locales. The citizenry in the "Bad guy" areas aren't that much worse off than the citizenry in the "good guy" areas. Except for the apparent Lyran conscription. Which isn't that surprising given that they are Nazis in Space, I guess.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:41
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WarLocke posted:A lot of the stereotyping that goes on for the different houses isn't necessarily due to how the actual state is set up, but because of their leaders, and this ends up coloring how people view the entire system. Isn't the reason for the insane leaders because it's easier to write an antagonist that's a person? They're pretty much always going to have a crazy leader because that gives Davion a "justified" reason to fight a war and win. Arglebargle III posted:And this a zillion times. As a student of Chinese history and culture it's painfully obvious that the Capellans are Fu-Manchu caricatures. I would really like to see a genuine future state based on the Chinese Empire. If the Capellan Confederation was a meritocratic bureaucracy under an Emperor obsessed with keeping the nobility down (like the Chinese Empires of history) it would be a genuinely interesting and different Successor State. Even having the Liaos obsessed with domestic distractions would lend them a little more genuine Chinese flavor. And it would make sense with the most densely populated state, too. I also always thought it was weird that the Capellan symbol is a guy holding a sword that looks either Japanese or Central Asian. The Chinese traditionally made straight swords. It's probably still possible to salvage a good story from the fluff on the Capellans so long as you rewrite the leaders in charge so they're not just there to give Davion someone to put down. VVV I think that's the Fu Manchu angle that Arglebargle is getting at. Longinus00 fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 22:43
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Well, a lot of the reason the Confederation have crazy leaders is because they tend to constantly be recovering from a war and being seen as a second rate House. They used to be strong-ish, but after so many wars (and it wasn't all the Davions stomping them, Marik got in on it too), they're left with a crazy inferiority complex. The Laios want to be seen as equals, but they're living in a trailer park rather than a mansion. So they figure they need crazy schemes to take back all their occupied worlds, and then they get stomped even more and it repeats.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:46
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Agent Interrobang posted:Yeah, pretty much this. I like Battletech because no matter WHO you're rooting for, absolutely nobody is a 'good guy.' I don't like Hanse Davion because he's THE NICEST GUY NO REALLY HE JUST CONQUERS NATIONS WITH RANDOM BLITZKRIEGS AS A HOBBY, I like him because he's an entertainingly duplicitous and conniving bastard. Same reason I like Marthe Pryde.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:47
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Arquinsiel posted:To be fair, he *did* have some slight justification for it. Did he? I was pretty sure it was just the typical Davion motivation. "What, has it really been ten years since we stomped a mudhole into the Liaos? Let's do it again for old times sake."
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Jan 25, 2011 22:50
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