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The Pirate Captain posted:Another subwoofer question. I’m putting a nice sound system into a home theater-type room (15’ x 15’) and have settled on the speakers I want except for the sub. My buddy has a KEF Kube 12b and says I’m wasting my money if I buy anything else (all my other speakers are going to be KEF). I’m hoping the system will last until I die in 40 years so I’m open to spending a decent amount, but that seems like more than I need. I have small children whose room is on the other side of the house, and I mostly use the TV at night, so I don’t need or want something that will shake the walls. The Kube can go down to 11Hz and the cheaper ones bottom out at 20, wikipedia says people can’t hear below 20 anyway except in lab testing which this won’t be. This is for movies and video games, no music. It sounds like your buddy just has a bad case of vendor fanboyism. There are plenty of good subwoofers in that range. Are you in Canada? I'm seeing that KEF for $1k on Amazon in the US, so you're getting shafted at that price either way. As for frequency range, you don't really hear the low frequencies, you feel them. Anything below like 40hz is going to be more about the sensation of bass than about any change to what you actually hear. You can definitely feel frequencies much lower than 20 hz if they're loud enough. Earthquakes are like 1 hz  That said, I would highly doubt that a 12 inch, 300W subwoofer can put out any decent output at 11hz. You normally need something massive to do that. For comparison, the SVS PB16 Ultra, which is a 16 inch 1500W RMS monster claims a 13hz +/- 3 dB range. Edit: Even KEF's website says 22Hz, so I don't know where you're seeing 11. Double Edit: And getting good even bass response is just as much about number of subs and the shape / materials of your room as it is about the sub itself. Obviously you'll never get good sound out of a poo poo sub, but it's very easy to get poo poo sound out of the best, most expensive sub. KillHour fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Mar 22, 2023 |
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Mar 22, 2023 16:56
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Whoops, that’s one of the cheaper ones I’m considering. The one he is pushing is KEF KC-62. Sorry for the mixup. What you said about feeling the sound is really interesting. That seems like it would feel nice, but wouldn’t it reach the kids if I crank it up?
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Mar 22, 2023 17:04
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The Pirate Captain posted:Whoops, that’s one of the cheaper ones I’m considering. The one he is pushing is KEF KC-62. Sorry for the mixup. Yes. Lower frequencies travel further than higher frequencies. You should not listen to bass heavy stuff while people are trying to sleep. During the day though? Turn that poo poo up. I would demand to hear that subwoofer in person because I straight-up do not believe physics lets them do the things they are claiming with that enclosure. I do not see a frequency response graph, which is concerning. Fake Edit: I looked up a review that has lab graphs. They're stretching the truth on the response (they are probably quoting corner loaded with some kind of parametric EQ to even it out as much as they can) https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/kef-kc62 It seems like it's a very good sub for the size, but you're paying a lot of extra money and compromising on max volume for that form factor. If you're okay with a more traditional form factor, I would compare them to a pair of SVS SB-2000's or a single PB-3000, depending on whether you value even, tight response or low-end extension more. Or just save some money and get a single SB-3000 or something. I think both manufacturers offer in-home trials, so maybe get a couple things and return whichever you don't like.
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Mar 22, 2023 17:28
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You have room for a proper SVS sub. Just buy one. Spend some time getting it adjusted properly, then don't ever worry about it again. (I realise that's also vendor fanboyism  )
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Mar 22, 2023 17:59
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KEF has always been optimistic with their frequency response claims. There's better values out there from dedicated vendors like SVS or Rythmik. With that space 2 smaller subs would be a good way to get even response but I'd start with one to get a feel for what you need. Some folks don't need or aren't willing to go full "tactile response" because of cost, space constraints, setup complexity, neighbors, children, etc.and I love having my sub even though I run it pretty low. Don't count on a subwoofer lasting decades like passive speakers can but if you get a good one it should be good for many years. On most eventually the amp dies, some can be repaired, many can be replaced and the rest you can seal it and use an outboard amp. If you had Killhour's system it would definitely wake your children. Non-jokingly bass does travel through walls easier which to me means you'll want to be able to quickly and easily adjust the level. Whether this is "night theater" mode on a receiver or a sub with app control like SVS it's something to keep in mind. qirex fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Mar 22, 2023 |
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Mar 22, 2023 18:00
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This is awesome, thank you guys so much for the advice! It’s a lot to think about. I’m definitely going to take the tip of going to listen to some for comparison, there’s a nice hifi store pretty close (they had a great setup for the other KEF’s I’m getting that totally sold me on them). Those SVSs look cool too, hopefully they’ll have some.
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Mar 22, 2023 18:11
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qirex posted:If you FTFY 
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Mar 22, 2023 18:17
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The Pirate Captain posted:This is awesome, thank you guys so much for the advice! It’s a lot to think about. I’m definitely going to take the tip of going to listen to some for comparison, there’s a nice hifi store pretty close (they had a great setup for the other KEF’s I’m getting that totally sold me on them). Those SVSs look cool too, hopefully they’ll have some. If they're a hi fi store they'll probably have REL [I think they have the same US distributor as KEF] which are decent but you pay for those aluminum feet and etched logos. Don't forget that subs are extremely room dependant and your setup and configuration is what will make or break it sounding good.
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Mar 22, 2023 18:31
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qirex posted:If they're a hi fi store they'll probably have REL [I think they have the same US distributor as KEF] which are decent but you pay for those aluminum feet and etched logos. What are you talking about? Spending $4400 on a 12" sub with a carbon fiber cone is obviously worth every penny and isn't a trap for rich audiophiles at all.
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Mar 22, 2023 18:33
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KillHour posted:What are you talking about? Spending $4400 on a 12" sub with a carbon fiber cone is obviously worth every penny and isn't a trap for rich audiophiles at all. Their whole thing of preferring high level inputs is so silly, there was some controversy among their customer base when they finally made a "home theater" model with *gasp* a RCA jack on it
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Mar 22, 2023 18:35
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It's basically a fundamental truth that the companies that make mid/high end speakers make poor value subwoofers. I love B&Ws sound but I'd never even think about buying one of their subwoofers.
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Mar 22, 2023 18:44
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The Pirate Captain posted:I’m hoping the system will last until I die in 40 years so I’m open to spending a decent amount, but that seems like more than I need. Just to add to a part no one mentioned: passive speakers will probably last until you die(or multiple decades). Subwoofers, or more specifically their amp, might not. You should still be able to get a decade or maybe even two out of it though. So spend on something that meets your criteria, but don't think that spending more will increase the longevity or whatever.
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Mar 23, 2023 17:34
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There will always be a replacement plate amp or worst case, you can convert the sub to passive, block the hole where the plate amp was and use an external power amp.
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Mar 23, 2023 17:46
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That and dead amps that aren't dead because of heat were a problem for the same reason as dead motherboards. poo poo electrolytic caps aren't as much of a problem anymore, luckily.
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Mar 23, 2023 18:16
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Is there anything wrong with just leaving my subwoofer on instead of auto? In my test just now when playing the test tone from my receiver it didn't play anything in auto but it did play in on. The test tone isn't that strong so I dunno, maybe it wasn't enough to get it to power on or something?
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Mar 23, 2023 20:33
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It'll use more power, but that's about it.
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Mar 23, 2023 20:55
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KozmoNaut posted:It'll use more power, but that's about it. Beauty thanks. I went with the Klipsch 12" sub since visions was having a pretty big sale. This is way more subwoofer than I need but whatever.
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Mar 24, 2023 05:22
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prom candy posted:Beauty thanks. Which one? There are a few. Edit: From the link earlier, I'm guessing the R120. Looks decent from the spec sheet. Enjoy your newly found bass. There is no such thing as more subwoofer than you need. Your needs grow to fill the subwoofer just above the one you have. KillHour fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 24, 2023 |
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Mar 24, 2023 05:42
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I have a 20 year old vandersteen v2w… I wonder if it’s about to die.
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Mar 24, 2023 05:48
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Send the amp off to an electronics repair shop and have it refurbished, unless you're looking for an excuse to upgrade.
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Mar 24, 2023 06:23
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KillHour posted:Which one? There are a few. Yeah the R120. I know there's better subs out there but for the money I spent and getting free shipping in Canada I think I did well. Now I just need to either convince my wife to watch an action movie with me or convince her to leave the house for a few hours.
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Mar 24, 2023 20:39
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For the powered subwoofer I recently got and mentioned earlier in the thread... I determined 60hz feels like the appropriate crossover point for my system. I set the volume knob on the subwoofer itself at exactly half, or essentially "0" gain as recommended. For the subwoofer level from the receiver, I have it all the way down to -8dB. That's where it feels like it blends in with the rest of the speakers best. The lowest the setting goes is -10dB. Is this common? I'm surprised I had to set it that low.
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Apr 2, 2023 21:53
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It's fine. Besides the sub volume control, unless it's digital you need to tune for combination of the analog output voltage level of the receiver and gain of the sub amp input, and I think both sub and receiver manufacturers tend towards the "much bass = good sound" lowest common denominator consumer. You could lower the volume of the sub if you hit the end of the adjustment in the receiver. It's functionally the same.
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Apr 2, 2023 22:48
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But much bass does = good sound 
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Apr 2, 2023 23:00
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^^ thanks! I bet they also probably want to ensure the subwoofer is obviously on under default settings since most people want it to stand out rather than blend in. ^ to a point. If it’s too prominent it’s overkill imo. I’d rather it just not even seem like it’s there and like all the sound is coming from the speakers. Ok, hopefully last subwoofer question: I like the sub to be punchier and less “boomy”. I was having trouble getting it to that even with the lowered dB levels. So I tried matching the crossover knob on the subwoofer to the setting on the receiver (60hz) and for some reason that actually gave me the punchier sound I want. Why would this happen? My assumption is the receiver’s crossover processing is not perfect?
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Apr 3, 2023 00:56
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Filters are always a slope. Where you set the filter is ideally what is referred to as "3dB point " where the response is three decibels below a flat response. By matching the settings you've made the two filters expect the same 3dB point.
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Apr 3, 2023 02:14
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M_Gargantua posted:Filters are always a slope. Where you set the filter is ideally what is referred to as "3dB point " where the response is three decibels below a flat response. Crossover filters don't "expect" anything. What they did was overlay the two filters so they combined and increased the falloff slope.
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Apr 3, 2023 04:03
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SweetMercifulCrap! posted:For the subwoofer level from the receiver, I have it all the way down to -8dB. That's where it feels like it blends in with the rest of the speakers best. The lowest the setting goes is -10dB. Is this common? I'm surprised I had to set it that low. It might simply be that you've placed the sub in a spot where it gets some extra boost by the room's acoustics. It sounds perfectly normal to tweak -8 dB if that sounds better.
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Apr 3, 2023 14:15
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intheflesh posted:How old was yours? My 505 died a couple weeks ago, purchased in 2015. Sorry for the late response on this, I picked up mine in summer 2016. I didn't use it that often, but it looks like these things just blow up after 5-6 years. I think I paid $200 and digging into it to maybe fix it wasn't in the cards. Stupid design/failure mode.
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Apr 3, 2023 16:02
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SPEAKING OF SUBWOOFERS, The SVS that was recommended came in and I set it up, and everything's good and cool, etc.... but the Polk 505 had auto on with just the single RCA cable, but this SVS PB1000 has a 3-12V DC trigger to get auto on/off to work. My Denon X1200 doesn't have a trigger out. Is there any sort of work around for this outside of using power plug with a wireless remote thing? Or buying a new receiver?
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Apr 3, 2023 16:04
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Phone posted:SPEAKING OF SUBWOOFERS, I don't have that exact subwoofer, but on all my SVS subs, the trigger input is optional. If you leave it on auto, it should turn on when there's a signal. It's not an issue to just leave it on, other than slightly increased power usage though.
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Apr 3, 2023 16:09
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Eh, fair enough. What about the blue power LED? it's nuts to me that they put that on the front lol
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Apr 3, 2023 17:31
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Phone posted:Eh, fair enough. Mine luckily don't have the light on the front. My advice is electrical tape.
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Apr 3, 2023 17:52
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M_Gargantua posted:Filters are always a slope. Where you set the filter is ideally what is referred to as "3dB point " where the response is three decibels below a flat response. KillHour posted:Crossover filters don't "expect" anything. What they did was overlay the two filters so they combined and increased the falloff slope. So basically, if you set a filter at 60hz, frequencies above that can still "get through" but with a continuing slope of -3dB until a point where they're inaudible, and by matching the two filters, the slope is increased? Hippie Hedgehog posted:It might simply be that you've placed the sub in a spot where it gets some extra boost by the room's acoustics. It sounds perfectly normal to tweak -8 dB if that sounds better. True. I'm also limited as to where I can place it and only have one spot on the floor where it fits and isn't blocked.
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Apr 3, 2023 19:05
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you match the -3dB points to get a stable level between the speakers as you sweep frequencies because that's the point where they will play the same thing as loud as one speaker without the dip
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Apr 3, 2023 23:32
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SweetMercifulCrap! posted:So basically, if you set a filter at 60hz, frequencies above that can still "get through" but with a continuing slope of -3dB until a point where they're inaudible, and by matching the two filters, the slope is increased? Ignore the -3db thing. Crossovers have a "slope" measured in db/octave. Each crossover is different (they're usually something between like 9-24 db/octave), but basically you're adding them together, making the total slope steeper.
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Apr 4, 2023 02:52
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The receiver has, apparently, been fixed. I'm translating from Chinese here so some of the words might be wrong They said the "interface chip" broke so they replaced it. Anyway, they said it was "damaged by abnormal discharge" and they recommend "grounding the projector it's plugged into" and, this makes sense, I have suspicions about the wiring there. But how do I go about grounding all my poo poo to make it not break? I am not an electrician and I have no idea, is there something I should be plugging all my stuff into to ground it or to protect it from abnormal discharge? I do think some of the wiring in this apartment might be kinda funny, which makes sense if you've ever lived in a Chinese apartment, so I gotta find a way to protect everything from the amateur wiring here I guess. BrainDance fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Apr 4, 2023 |
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Apr 4, 2023 07:10
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BrainDance posted:The receiver has, apparently, been fixed. Whatever the problem is, the solution is not to add more amateur wiring yourself. Doing so is a great way to destroy your stuff, burn down the house or possibly electrocute yourself (or the next resident). China seems like it has receptacles of type A (US), C (EU) and I (CN), all on 220V/50 Hz, which is pretty wild. I'd suggest looking for a credentialed electrician with expertise in the local variants, if you can swing it budget-wise... Possibly, having grounded outlets for everything might help. It should eliminate differences in potential between the two appliances. Also, if all the involved equipment is sharing a common ground, then some failure modes can be eliminated. But you'd expose yourself to ground loop hum, which hopefully isn't a problem with an all-digital signal path like HDMI. I'm assuming that the projector's power cable has a three-pole grounded plug. If it doesn't, adding a ground lead to the outlet would be pointless. There is an added risk in retrofitting ground leads to existing wiring: You should never (ever, ever) mix grounded and non-grounded outlets in the same room! The reason is, if some appliance is properly grounded and positioned next to an ungrounded applicance, there is a very dangerous failure mode: if the ungrounded appliance breaks and becomes "live", and you touched both of them at the same time, you would be dead with a very high likelyhood. In an all-ungrounded scenario, you're paradoxically safer, because the voltage across your body would be a lot smaller when you're not touching ground. Your body adds enough capacitance and resistance to make that scenario quite survivable. And if they were both grounded, the broken appliance would have caused a short-circuit to ground, which would burn a fuse and you're again safe. I know in my country they are not recommending these retrofits, because people mess this up all the time. They only do them in kitchens and bathrooms/laundry rooms. So, if you do decide to "upgrade" to grounded outlets, do the whole apartment or at least the whole room. While you're at it, if you do have ungrounded outlets, seriously consider adding an earth-leakage circuit breaker at the main fuse box. Especially if you're suspicious about the quality of wiring... It's a fairly cheap life insurance. Hippie Hedgehog fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Apr 4, 2023 |
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Apr 4, 2023 08:28
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Hippie Hedgehog posted:Whatever the problem is, the solution is not to add more amateur wiring yourself. Yeah we hired an electrician. He came something like 11 in the morning, an hour late, on a Saturday no tools or anything and pretty clearly drunk looked around for a while and eventually just said "I can't do this" and walked out. We didn't pay him. A friend I got who's an electrician (on the other side of the world or else I'd totally just pay him to do it) said that's the most electrician thing. But then the 2nd electrician we got, he came and actually had a bunch of tools and stuff and took apart the outlets, checked everything out. He said all the outlets were grounded and seemed fine. But the one thing he found, the power strip we had the projector plugged into, it had a ground plug and it claimed to be grounded but the ground plug wasn't actually hooked up to anything, there just wasn't a wire for it, so the projector wasn't really grounded. So I dunno if that's a possibility if some weirdness from the projector being ungrounded affected the receiver? I did realize too, the Denon receiver, it's not grounded. Like, the cable on it just doesn't have a ground, only the 2 normal plugs, and it's wired into the receiver directly so you can't just replace it. That seems weird to me, people say Denon is a good brand but why not ground it? Is there some technical reasons receivers don't get grounded? Or they don't need to be or something? You said the thing about adding an earth-leakage circuit breaker to the main fuse box if it wasn't grounded in there. Would that help any anyway even if it is grounded? I just wanna do what I can to keep all the expensive electronics poo poo as safe as I can.
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Apr 22, 2023 02:48
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BrainDance posted:Yeah we hired an electrician. He came something like 11 in the morning, an hour late, on a Saturday no tools or anything and pretty clearly drunk looked around for a while and eventually just said "I can't do this" and walked out. We didn't pay him. A friend I got who's an electrician (on the other side of the world or else I'd totally just pay him to do it) said that's the most electrician thing. You have no idea how happy it makes me to know that electricians in China are exactly the same as in the US. Speaking of bad wiring, I just put in new lights in my basement along with a new circuit because the old one was... scary. Well, it wasn't the only scary circuit down there because I was holding the (grounded) metal body of the new light and brushed my arm against a MC cable on another circuit and my arm went nice and numb. Pulled out the meter and sure enough, ~70v between the two. So now I get to figure out why that cable isn't grounded properly and also where it's leaking current. I'll probably just rip the whole loving thing out. Thanks, prior owner! KillHour fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 02:55
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