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Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.


If Ron Burgundy weren't a news anchor, he would be an Investment Banker.

Welcome to the Investment Banking Career and Education thread. Random threads have popped up over time about schooling and career paths in finance and hopefully this thread can act as a catch-all for at least some of them.

"I don't know poo poo about Investment Banking."
Read this: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.c...king-hierarchy/

Things that should be discussed in here include (but aren't limited to):
  • The different careers in the divisions of a "modern investment bank" including Mergers & Acquistions, Capital Markets, Sales & Trading, Operations, Wealth Management, etc. I also think buyside discussion is appropriate because lets face it, it's where we all want to be and banking is often one of the first rungs on the ladder to getting there.
  • Since your education credentials are all important in finance, this thread would be a good place to talk about different programs both undergraduate and graduate.
  • Public policy effecting the banking industry.
  • 90's Rock.
  • Models
  • Bottles.

If you're new to this, here is a very simplified description of positions in an investment bank:

Vault Career Intelligence posted:

There are dozens of specialized functions at an investment bank, ranging from private wealth management (essentially, brokers to the rich) to risk managers (those who make sure the bank isn't taking on too much risk). At most major investment banks, the corporate finance and sales and trading functions are among the largest and most important.

The corporate finance department works to raise money for companies and other large organizations looking to expand or acquire new holdings. Teams of analysts, associates, VPs and MDs work to analyze the potential profit and risk for their own bank while creating pitches to entice the client. While good math and Excel skills are essential to being a successful I-banker, those who can buttress their quantitative skills with creativity when building pitch books and PowerPoint presentations tend to catch the eye of their superiors.

Sales and trading is a different story. An investment banking trading floor is chaos. There's usually a lot of swearing, yelling and shouting going ona pressure cooker of stress. Traders must rely on their market instincts, and salespeople yell for "bids" when the market tumbles. Deciding what to buy or sell, and at what price to buy and sell, is difficult when millions of dollars are at stake.

However, salespeople and traders work much more reasonable hours than corporate finance bankers. Rarely does a salesperson or trader venture into the office on a Saturday or Sunday, leaving the trading floor completely void of life on weekends. Any corporate finance analyst who has crossed a trading floor on a Saturday will tell you that the only noises to be heard are the clocks clicking every minute and the whir of the air conditioner.

Analysts and associates in investment banking work virtually all the time, and their stress level can be high as mistakes are not as easily tolerated. Analysts are hired out of college and typically work two or three years before going back to get their MBAs. Associates, commonly hired out of graduate business school, gradually take on more and more client contact and move up to the vice president level in three to four years. After vice president comes director (or senior vice president) and then managing director. Established relationships and networking abilities determine the success of an MD who is often responsible for originating deals within his/her sector.

In sales and trading, the career path is not quite as structured. For example, analysts move more easily to the associate level without an MBA than they do in corporate finance. And associates can climb quickly to the VP and director levels, depending on the firm's need and the talent of the salesperson or trader.


List of websites to check out:

https://www.vault.com: Lots of job descriptions. Useful for beginners.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/: Your one stop shop for good articles on banking recruiting.
https://www.dealbook.com: Finance and business focused news from the New York Times.
https://www.dealbreaker.com: Self-proclaimed "Wall Street Tabloid". Similar to dealbook but with a humorous spin.
http://epicureandealmaker.blogspot.com/: Flowery blog written by an anonymous banker. A high-effort read but his take on markets and the industry is certainly worth your time.
http://www.leveragedsellout.com/: A collection of (fake) stories and anecdotes about life as a young banker. It's no longer being updated but the posts for the most part are hilarious and are worth checking out in your down time (if you still have any of that).
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/
http://equityprivate.typepad.com/

Here are some leather bound books to check out:

Monkey Business by John Rolfe and Peter Troob
Bonfire of the Vanities by Tom Wolfe
American Psycho by Bret Easton Ellis
Liar's Poker by Michael Lewis
The Big Short by Michael Lewis
All The Devils are Here by Joe Nocera and Bethany McLean
The End of the Free Market by Ian Bremmer
Ahead of the Curve: Two Years at Harvard Business School by Phillip Delves Broughton

Thoogsby fucked around with this message at Jul 29, 2011 around 11:02

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alreadybeen
Nov 24, 2009


Starting this off on a lighter note:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROlDmux7Tk4

LactoseO.D.'d
Jun 3, 2002


Oh wow the title. Well done.

Socialism
May 8, 2009


I'm currently a first year analyst in an industry group at one of the bulge bracket banks, so I can pitch in and answer some questions if needed. I work mostly on m&a stuff so my knowledge of capital markets is limited aside from memos. I did 2 Internships in IBD of other banks as well.

I'd recommend adding http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com and wallstreetoasis to the list. WSO can be full of poo poo but occasionally it has some useful bits.

Since my start as full time I've become rather disillusioned with the job, so my perspective is probably very biased, but I understand some people actually do end up enjoying banking (and of course the allure of going to the buyside...) My hours are ~90-100 average, and my group's culture is such that going home before 9 is pretty much a cardinal sin.

GET MONEY
Sep 7, 2003



How do I break into the buy-side without going through the sell-side? What's the best way to get an internship (ideally with a hedge fund/asset management firm) as a soon-to-be university graduate?

edit: Should I/how do I include personal trading/system development experience on a resume?

GET MONEY fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2011 around 00:05

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.


Socialism posted:

I'm currently a first year analyst in an industry group at one of the bulge bracket banks, so I can pitch in and answer some questions if needed. I work mostly on m&a stuff so my knowledge of capital markets is limited aside from memos. I did 2 Internships in IBD of other banks as well.

I'd recommend adding http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com and wallstreetoasis to the list. WSO can be full of poo poo but occasionally it has some useful bits.

Since my start as full time I've become rather disillusioned with the job, so my perspective is probably very biased, but I understand some people actually do end up enjoying banking (and of course the allure of going to the buyside...) My hours are ~90-100 average, and my group's culture is such that going home before 9 is pretty much a cardinal sin.

Links added to OP.

I would be interested to here where you went to school. 2 Internships and straight to M&A at a BB is pretty impressive. I would love to be where you are when I graduate, although it may only be boutiques or operations at a BB that are available to me.

I mentioned in the thread that sparked this that I'm currently doing a 6-month co-op on the corporate derivatives structuring & sales desk in the capital markets division at an investment bank in NYC right now.

GET MONEY posted:

How do I break into the buy-side without going through the sell-side? What's the best way to get an internship (ideally with a hedge fund/asset management firm) as a soon-to-be university graduate?

edit: Should I/how do I include personal trading/system development experience on a resume?

I think it's pretty rare to be honest. Everyone has to take their lumps at some point. It may be possible to end up in PE or a hedge fund right out of undergrad but it's probably going to be back office unless you're a very bright person coming from a very prestigious school.

Waroen
Jun 23, 2006
Fuck Jesus and Fuck Shoes!!

Woo I broke into the buy-side out of school. Hedge fund analyst at a small fund right now but we're growing assets considerably. The key is networking. Cold call a bunch of small HF if you want to break in and hope they offer you a job after school. After you get lucky with that hope your fund is good and attracts cash and you'll be on the road to wealth without having to work the 100 hour weeks at a BB in Investment Banking.

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


I'm a second-year analyst; went through PE recruiting last year and will be officially moving to the buyside as of July this year (can't wait)

The Epicurean Dealmaker is an excellent read; I also recommend Going Private (http://equityprivate.typepad.com/), a now defunct blog about the travails of Equity Private, a cuttingly sardonic representative of the fairer sex in the cut throat world of mid-market PE

TheSherpa
Mar 3, 2008


IBD analyst with experience in technology and consumer groups (consumer group needed help yesterday and I volunteered because they moved me out to SF in corporate housing for a couple months). Currently in the process of moving into sell-side research at the same bank because I'm more interested in the markets than pitch books.

unixbeard
Dec 28, 2004



Yes I did a bit of work for a buy side HF but I knew the guys from other stuff I had done and had a lot of industry experience in the areas they were focussed on. They shut down late last year but I kinda wish I had stuck around with them.

You should definitely include your trading results, put you annual average return and some sort of risk adjusted return. At the end of the day its about making money and if you're good at that you should be able to get a look in somewhere.

unixbeard fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2011 around 07:35

zmcnulty
Jul 26, 2003



Will just repost my thoughts on Operations from the other thread here. If anyone wants info about Ops specifically please let me know, otherwise it seems like others are better qualified to answer questions about buyside/S&T/IBD/the more glamorous stuff.

I posted:

If investment banking were a (American) football game, front-office people are the players on the field and back-office people are the ones running out giving them water between plays. It's a necessary function, sure, but definitely not the exciting part of the game. No trophies, $$$ signing bonuses, post-game interviews.

So it's a mixed bag:
  • Work is often much less financial and more clerical. If monkeys could use Excel, they could probably do 20% of my job.
  • We're sort of distanced from the market in the sense that we don't read the WSJ/Bloomberg everyday, don't sit on analyst calls, don't follow rates, don't know much about trading strategies, pricing models, portfolio analysis, and so on. Or we "don't have to" as I say. We obviously work with front office for introducing new products and dealing with increased volumes, but that's basically them telling us "hey we want to trade X, get ready!" So we only have a tangential understanding of finance... you certainly don't need to know how to trade stocks to settle them. So as you can imagine, back-office experience isn't really applicable for most front-office jobs. People who really want to make the move to front-office can do so after significant effort, but mostly Ops people stick with Ops.
  • Pay is lower; my guess is even our global head makes "only" like $250K base. Bonuses are anyone's guess, especially nowadays, because we literally don't make a single dollar of revenue. We're just a cost-center. So it's pretty unimaginable for Ops people to be buying Ferraris and other stuff you hear IBD/traders doing.
  • Flip-side of that is that since we're not producing revenue, we don't have to meet sales goals or anything of the sort. Nobody is breathing down our necks to trade more, sell more, close deals, create new revenue streams, and so on.
  • We're the only ones in the bank that see the entire trade lifecycle. So if you are interested in learning processes and not necessarily products, Ops might be a good place. That's why I joined and part of the reason I got hired.
  • Hours are more "realistic," even during early years. I generally work 8:45AM - like 7PM. You might be putting in some 60-hour weeks here and there, but probably not often. Unless you work for GS.
  • At least for our daily (e.g. not project) work, we are mostly reactive. So if everything is going smoothly, you may have downtime & can leave early. Here I am posting on SA right now. Last night I left at 6:15PM.

\/\/ haha, do I know you?

zmcnulty fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2011 around 08:20

unixbeard
Dec 28, 2004



you put the party in counterparty

Socialism
May 8, 2009


Thoogsby posted:

Links added to OP.

I would be interested to here where you went to school. 2 Internships and straight to M&A at a BB is pretty impressive. I would love to be where you are when I graduate, although it may only be boutiques or operations at a BB that are available to me.

London School of Economics. It's a place where they basically groom you for finance. I'd guess easily around 20-30% of all graduates end up in banking. I don't work at GS or one of the what people would call the top BB's. For what it's worth, I would probably go back to a boutique if I had the chance now. One of my internships was at a boutique and it was much better in terms of life style/treatment from senior guys.

Admirable Gusto posted:

I'm a second-year analyst; went through PE recruiting last year and will be officially moving to the buyside as of July this year (can't wait)

Do you mind sharing your experience? I'm going through it now, but I find it difficult to be motivated since PE seems like Banking Redux (at least the megafunds).

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.


Socialism posted:

London School of Economics. It's a place where they basically groom you for finance. I'd guess easily around 20-30% of all graduates end up in banking. I don't work at GS or one of the what people would call the top BB's. For what it's worth, I would probably go back to a boutique if I had the chance now. One of my internships was at a boutique and it was much better in terms of life style/treatment from senior guys.

I'm planning on taking classes at LSE this summer for about 9 weeks. I'm really looking forward to it.

Just out of curiosity, what was the boutique you worked at in what city?

mik
Oct 15, 2003
oh

Curious if anyone has any experience with IB/HF/etc in Canada - I graduated from LSE (master's) in 2009, although I had a good internship in the City during the summer, trying to find a permanent position in London in September 2009 was the epitome of


So I'm back in Canada, working as a Trader in a very small organization but am thinking about seeing if I can get into a larger organization

I found that in the UK companies more care about "are you competent, are you smart, etc" and are willing to hire people who meet intelligence standards (had a few friends in Development Studies who ended up at GS) - whereas here in Canada you have to check the straight Accounting or Finance degree checkboxes before even having your resume looked which is annoying as hell. I did a dual degree in Engineering/Econonmics before doing an Econ Master's, so it's a bit of an uphill battle.

mik fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2011 around 17:27

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

Thoogsby posted:

I think it's pretty rare to be honest. Everyone has to take their lumps at some point. It may be possible to end up in PE or a hedge fund right out of undergrad but it's probably going to be back office unless you're a very bright person coming from a very prestigious school.

I was offered a job as an excel monkey at a small (~5 bil assets under management) PE/VC fund of funds in Stamford CT straight out of college ("Cornell: at least we're better than Brown!"), though I had previously done an internship in wealth management at beleaguered bulge bracket in the summer of 2008. They were pretty clear that it would be a fairly limited role with no guarantee whatsoever of advancement, so I think you're pretty spot on about what sort of opportunities are available in buy-side straight out of undergrad.

An open question; instead of the hedge fund job I took a position at a boutique healthcare consulting firm. What are the odds of breaking back into PE? Think I'd have of chance of landing an associate-level position if I get an MBA in a year or so?

EchoBase
Dec 11, 2001


This looks to be a good thread. Can people who are working in banking give some day-in-the-life summaries of what they do, preferably with less jargon and acronyms? I'm curious to see what you really do all day in various types of jobs.

I've been interested in making a career change to something investment banking related, but starting over again, working the long hours, etc is what's turning me off. I'll be blunt, it's the potantial money that is the primary lure. I'm doing a low grade form of VC work right now and am finding it a lot more fun and interesting than my old jobs so it's not only a money thing. I'm just looking at what I'm doing now and thinking that it may not be such a big leap to go all-out in a proper investment banking firm.

I work for a major manufacturing organization as part of a small group that does some $100Ks to $2-$3M investment deals with technology startups. We're just building this business from the ground up so we're just kind of creating our own business model (we don't do straight cash investments), methods for evaluating potential partners, etc.

Unluckyimmortal
Jul 22, 2007


I'd love to hear where everyone in this thread went to college and (if applicable) got their masters/MBA/PhD.

Its Miller Time
Dec 4, 2004



UCLA '10 grad, just started full-time as a 1st year analyst in a public finance group in Los Angeles. We serve as senior and co managers on many of the big cities and counties in California as well as California itself's general obligation (GO) and other bond issuances, such as tax & revenue anticipation bonds (TRANs). We also do project financing, either working with a municipality or developers to issue tax exempt or taxable bonds based on the revenues of the project they want to build. I recruited from basically Winter '09 until this fall without success with a 3.6/varsity club sports/greek life/PWM internship at a BB/internships in corp real estate and corp. finance. poo poo was tough. In terms of Los Angeles ibanking I got to 2nd rounds with the infamous UBS LA, and was roommates and am close friends with 2 of Moelis LA's current analysts.

Book suggestions: Bonfire of the Vanities and Monkey Business. American Pyscho for color. Yes it is a book. A good one.

Career advice: Hopefully you're at a target school where banks come and make presentations, host career fairs, or do other stuff. Go to them and make a good impression. If you're not a target school, find the nearest one and when said activities are and drive there. Recruiters are impressed by the effort. Hopefully you have some kind of banking seminar/workshop for prospective bankers, or have met other people interested in banking in your accounting/economics/finance coursework. Network. Study and mock interview with them. Get the really good "list of 1000 ibanking questions" lists from them without paying. Read the newspaper starting yesterday and generally be aware of world and political events, and have a coherent opinion on the cause of the financial crisis and the future of the U.S. and world economy. Maybe they'll be asking about the Euro crisis in interviews now, so I'd know what's going on there.

Things that bankers are looking for in interviews:

Able to work really hard. Without explicitly stating how awful the junior level work-life balance is, you need to acknowledge you know what you're getting into and maybe provide some examples of times you've worked hard. This is a perfect career for athletes, and I saw a great deal of less qualified UCLA athletes land jobs.

Attention to detail. I think the main reason employers ask for a cover letter is to see if you understand presentation. I never realized how much arts and crafts there would be in the professional world, or how much time I'd spend laboring over formatting and presentation.

Socialable. They need to be able to work with you for 12+ hours a day and not hate you. This is much more difficult than you think. This is an industry that while it has its quiet passive workhouse nerds, is built on gregarious type-A personalities, especially if they're grooming you for the higher ranks, and you should fit in. Often they're not. In the better shops there's often an expectation that they'll spit you out and use you and after you'll leave for greener pastures with the group's name on your resume.

Things that are not as important:

How smart you are. Sure they grill you with technical questions, but there's a lot of other things they're testing like composure under pressure, how quick you are on your feet, and the depth of your knowledge of accounting and finance. What's not important is being a Genius. This isn't Sales and Trading, and there's a reason junior staff are referred to as monkies.

edit:

Also a clarification that confused me for quite some time. Merill Lynch is an investment bank. What distinguishes an investment bank from a Saving and Loan is it does not take deposits. An investment bank's typical "front office" aka revenue generating lines of business include investment banking services, trading (Stuff like Market Making), stock brokers, and extending and buying/selling loans of all shapes and formats such as the ones that sunk them in the crisis (I clearly don't know a lot about this and would appreciate someone closer to the markets and with more knowledge of how ibanks work to step in). The investment banking we're talking about is the investment bank advisory groups based in these banks. Investment banking groups serve as the bankers to corporate clients, representing them in corporate transactions such as mergers and acquisitions (M&A) or private placements (say an owner of a multi-million dollar business wants to shell his share in the business, or for some reason you want to sell some debt or equity without a public auction), as well as assisting them in accessing the capital markets and issuing bonds or stocks (IPO). In my case my clients are local and state governments instead of corporations. These groups are either organized by industry or product. Thus you'll see some groups that focus on the retail industry and assist or outsource help from a more focused group in all of the possible transactions, while others only do M&A deals or leveraged buy outs ("LBOs", where a private equity group buys a company, borrowing a great deal against this company to finance the transaction, and then uses the proceeds from that company to pay off the debt. Think of a mortgage or Man U. if you're a sports fan). This is a very simple overview and ignores a lot of the complex derivatives sophisticated corporations use and a lot of the structured products and debt that generated some of the fastest money and were most essential to the massive losses a lot of Wall Street took.

edit2:

You should read the wikipedia page on investment banks and also understand the history of the industry, especially Glass Steagall

Its Miller Time fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2011 around 21:30

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.


Its Miller Time posted:

Lots of stuff

Added books to the OP. Along with a couple others, but I'd like to keep the list going.

Also I don't think we should limit discussion or questions to just advisory. I would like to use the term Investment Banking to cover all functions inside what most of the population considers an Investment Bank, even though the divisions between banking, capital markets, and sales and trading are more defined within an actual bank.

Socialism
May 8, 2009


Thoogsby posted:

I'm planning on taking classes at LSE this summer for about 9 weeks. I'm really looking forward to it.

Just out of curiosity, what was the boutique you worked at in what city?

You'll have a blast. The location is amazing and if you haven't been to London before, it's quite an experience. Get ready for a lot of self-study though, LSE's teaching is awful. The career services center is pretty useless, but some banks/consultancies hold summer info sessions that you really should attend if you get a chance.

I'd rather not reveal where I worked as it's small enough that it would be too easy to track me down, but it was a fairly typical small/start-up advisory place. Most of the partners are German dudes who may or may not be raging drunk by noon time.

I would really recommend anyone interested in the day-to-day life of an advisory banker to read Mergers and Inquisitions, it has multiple articles walking you through the best/worst days of an average analyst.

Not sure if anyone's interested, but I recruited for both US and UK positions (currently in NYC) so I can offer whatever bits I know on both sides. My year had a few Americans who made it to Wall Street, but only 2 other who got BB offers that I know of. Unfortunately, the difficulty of getting a Visa pretty much precludes most non-Americans from coming to work here.

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.


Socialism posted:

You'll have a blast. The location is amazing and if you haven't been to London before, it's quite an experience. Get ready for a lot of self-study though, LSE's teaching is awful. The career services center is pretty useless, but some banks/consultancies hold summer info sessions that you really should attend if you get a chance.

I've never been to London, or Europe for that matter. I have a few friends who did this same summer program though so I've been briefed on the amount of work it requires. But I'll be going right from an internship so the culture shock of long hours shouldn't be too bad.

I asked about the boutiques because my school has a single co-op with Piper Jaffray in Los Angeles and it's been on my radar. I also have a weak connection with an MD at Houlihan Lokey that I may pursue and was curious if you had first hand experience with either.

shrike82
Jun 11, 2005


The thing I've noticed the most about the industry is the grass is greener mentality.
My roomie at Blackstone wants to switch fields into trading. One wants to switch to a better BB. Another one wants to move from sell-side trading to a prop shop. A friend at UBS IBD wants to be a consultant now etc. Everyone thinks they have the shittiest job and everyone else has it easier.

It's pretty funny when you think about it.

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Socialism posted:

Do you mind sharing your experience? I'm going through it now, but I find it difficult to be motivated since PE seems like Banking Redux (at least the megafunds).

Haha well, I'm going to one of the megafunds so I might be a little biased.

This year's recruiting season is shaping up to start a lot sooner than last year. The first interviews might even be in March (as opposed to April last year). When it starts it's like a whirlwind because no one wants to lose out on the top talent. I remember it was Friday evening when word came that the megafunds had started interviewing; I had an offer in hand the following Wednesday night, barely five days after the insanity started.

As for PE being banking redux my thought is that PE shares superficial similarities to banking. The hours are not going to be great - you'll still have to deal with 70hr weeks (potentially spiking to over a hundred when it's crunch time on a deal) although weekends will be much more predictable. You'll still be doing the same kinds of valuation analyses - precedents, comps, DCFs, LBO models, etc. Almost everyone will have come from IB, so the lingo and the culture will be quite recognizable.

On the other hand, the critical difference for me when it comes to sell-side vs. buy-side is that you no longer have to drop everything to suit the capricious whims of the client. You no longer have your weekends wrecked because they want something pointless done by Monday. Then let's not forget that everything that you put out as a sell-side person has the analytical rigor of a soft turd because no one will show the client anything they don't want to see.

Instead, when people on the buy-side want something done they generally give you time to think about it, the leeway to talk about whether it makes sense, and the trust that you have the skills to do it without them having to mark up every last period and quotation mark. On the buy-side, people prefer things to actually be right instead of look right. And that makes all the difference. Ultimately no amount of money will keep you from burning out if you don't have the enthusiasm for the work. If you do though, the buy-side seems to be a much more congenial place to exercise your skills and make a little money in the process.

e> I work for a boutique where they are incredibly understanding when it comes to recruiting. I even had multiple MDs put in unsolicited calls on my behalf, which was very heartwarming. Contrast this with a certain cephalopod, where they fire your rear end if you so much as breathe a word about it.

Also if anyone is confused about industry-specific terminology/acronyms I would be happy to explain

got off on a technicality fucked around with this message at Jan 28, 2011 around 04:38

unixbeard
Dec 28, 2004



zmcnulty posted:

\/\/ haha, do I know you?

nah just another anonymous face in the unwashed masses. i am based in ch

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.


Admirable Gusto posted:

Haha well, I'm going to one of the megafunds so I might be a little biased.

This year's recruiting season is shaping up to start a lot sooner than last year. The first interviews might even be in March (as opposed to April last year). When it starts it's like a whirlwind because no one wants to lose out on the top talent. I remember it was Friday evening when word came that the megafunds had started interviewing; I had an offer in hand the following Wednesday night, barely five days after the insanity started.

As for PE being banking redux my thought is that PE shares superficial similarities to banking. The hours are not going to be great - you'll still have to deal with 70hr weeks (potentially spiking to over a hundred when it's crunch time on a deal) although weekends will be much more predictable. You'll still be doing the same kinds of valuation analyses - precedents, comps, DCFs, LBO models, etc. Almost everyone will have come from IB, so the lingo and the culture will be quite recognizable.

On the other hand, the critical difference for me when it comes to sell-side vs. buy-side is that you no longer have to drop everything to suit the capricious whims of the client. You no longer have your weekends wrecked because they want something pointless done by Monday. Then let's not forget that everything that you put out as a sell-side person has the analytical rigor of a soft turd because no one will show the client anything they don't want to see.

Instead, when people on the buy-side want something done they generally give you time to think about it, the leeway to talk about whether it makes sense, and the trust that you have the skills to do it without them having to mark up every last period and quotation mark. On the buy-side, people prefer things to actually be right instead of look right. And that makes all the difference. Ultimately no amount of money will keep you from burning out if you don't have the enthusiasm for the work. If you do though, the buy-side seems to be a much more congenial place to exercise your skills and make a little money in the process.

e> I work for a boutique where they are incredibly understanding when it comes to recruiting. I even had multiple MDs put in unsolicited calls on my behalf, which was very heartwarming. Contrast this with a certain cephalopod, where they fire your rear end if you so much as breathe a word about it.

Also if anyone is confused about industry-specific terminology/acronyms I would be happy to explain

I'd be curious to know what range of pay a first year at a PE can expect, especially coming out of banking. Is it a big step up? First and second year analyst wages on the sell-side seem easy enough to find but PE is still a little dark to me.

Socialism
May 8, 2009


Admirable Gusto posted:

megafund!

Can't thank you enough! What you say definitely matches what I've learned and come to expect. Although I understand it's better in that it's less process-oriented work (i.e. following instructions to a T and robotically churn out models/books), I feel it still has tons of bullshit work - internal items, making extremely minute changes to models, aligning bullet points...

Thoogsby posted:

I've never been to London, or Europe for that matter. I have a few friends who did this same summer program though so I've been briefed on the amount of work it requires. But I'll be going right from an internship so the culture shock of long hours shouldn't be too bad.

I asked about the boutiques because my school has a single co-op with Piper Jaffray in Los Angeles and it's been on my radar. I also have a weak connection with an MD at Houlihan Lokey that I may pursue and was curious if you had first hand experience with either.

When you arrive try to arrive on a weekday, and make sure it's not a bank holiday monday. Otherwise 90% of shops will be closed and you will end up having your first London meal at a McDonalds.

I don't know anything about Piper Jaffray in London, but I had a friend who interned in HLHZ restructuring. He had ~half of his weekends free, for what it's worth, and he said full-time analysts have about the same. The workload isn't soul-crushing, but their restructuring team is pretty intense in terms of getting things done right very quickly. If you have any sort of connection, however, definitely squeeze it whatever it's worth.

Fines Doubled
Sep 1, 2009


I was hoping a thread like this might pop up sometime. What advice could you guys give me on getting into the ibanking field. I'm really looking to get my foot some where. I graduated this December after a little over three years with a BS in Math and Economic Analysis from a pretty highly ranked state school. My GPA was a 3.2. We were kind of a target school I know we had recruiters come for Morgan Stanley and Goldman.

Since I was a dumb rear end I didn't do any internships, I realize this is huge black mark against me. I just got a job with Chase as a personal banker. Is this type of experience going to be at all relevant? What should I do make myself into an attractive candidate?

jaymm
Dec 30, 2006


I was wondering if anyone broke into investment banking through the accounting field. I will be starting at a Big 4 firm in September and will hopefully be in either the alternative investments or banking/capital markets areas. I did my internship in alternative investments and was placed on a large hedge fund. I know its fairly routine to break into back-ops from auditing but was wondering if anyone was able to go into the front office?

If it matters, my gpa is currently 3.55 at a state school and I took several advanced math classes to supplement my accounting major.

Its Miller Time
Dec 4, 2004



^I think your best bet is networking. Become chums with your clients and hope/ask one to offer you a job.

edit:

Fines Doubled posted:

Since I was a dumb rear end I didn't do any internships, I realize this is huge black mark against me. I just got a job with Chase as a personal banker. Is this type of experience going to be at all relevant? What should I do make myself into an attractive candidate?

Business school. Unless you land an entry-level analyst gig there's not a lot of room for jumping into the industry haphazardly. Also I don't think being a personal banker will get you an iota closer to an IBD (Investment Banking Division).

edit2:

If any has some good "excel shortcuts" list that they use a lot in banking/geared towards banking that they could share with me, my excel skills lag compared to the lightning speed of my associate, it'd be appreciatd.

Its Miller Time fucked around with this message at Jan 28, 2011 around 18:14

LactoseO.D.'d
Jun 3, 2002


Can someone give me an example of something I would be expected to use VBA for in Excel in an IB environment? I get so much functionality off of just the macro recorder, I have a tough time envisioning what I would actually need to bust out some code for.

Fines Doubled
Sep 1, 2009


Its Miller Time posted:

Business school. Unless you land an entry-level analyst gig there's not a lot of room for jumping into the industry haphazardly. Also I don't think being a personal banker will get you an iota closer to an IBD (Investment Banking Division).

Thanks, I didn't really think it would. I've been looking since looking since the end of June and this was the first offer I got. Since I enjoy having a place to live I took it. If I go the business school route and get a MBA would I be applying for Associate of Analyst type positions? Is it possible to get an Associate gig without experience as an Analyst? Would an MBA make me overqualified to be an analyst.

I guess I'll be trying for entry level positions next recruiting cycle.

therobit
Aug 19, 2008


zmcnulty posted:

Will just repost my thoughts on Operations from the other thread here. If anyone wants info about Ops specifically please let me know, otherwise it seems like others are better qualified to answer questions about buyside/S&T/IBD/the more glamorous stuff.


\/\/ haha, do I know you?

I would love to hear about ops. I am considering grad school and currently work in retail banking. I don't find sales to be intellectually satisfying, even if I am good at it. What's the career path like? I remember you said in the other thread that people were needed in Asia. Is this a way to break in a little sooner? We moved back to the US from Japan last year and I would consider returning if I could get a decent salary.

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Thoogsby posted:

I'd be curious to know what range of pay a first year at a PE can expect, especially coming out of banking. Is it a big step up? First and second year analyst wages on the sell-side seem easy enough to find but PE is still a little dark to me.

It's harder to generalize since there's much more variation, unlike analyst level where all banks try to hit the industry standard with a slight boutique premium.

Very broadly (emphasis on very; this is all-in gross comp with ~40% coming from base and the rest bonus):

Up to $500k for hybrids like Centerbridge
$275-400k for megafunds like TPG
$200-325k for mid-market like Gores Group

with lots of variation depending on how the fund does, individual performance and general comp culture at the firm

Hedge funds are impossible to generalize, except I would expect a base draw above $100k

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.


Admirable Gusto posted:

It's harder to generalize since there's much more variation, unlike analyst level where all banks try to hit the industry standard with a slight boutique premium.

Very broadly (emphasis on very; this is all-in gross comp with ~40% coming from base and the rest bonus):

Up to $500k for hybrids like Centerbridge
$275-400k for megafunds like TPG
$200-325k for mid-market like Gores Group

with lots of variation depending on how the fund does, individual performance and general comp culture at the firm

Hedge funds are impossible to generalize, except I would expect a base draw above $100k

So it seems like a big step up for a 1-2 year banking analyst across the board, just with more variation. This has been an interesting bonus season to be working on Wall Street. I have friends that are interning at Credit Suisse working with people in equity research where bonuses topped out at $5,000. On the other hand my AD's friend who still works as a trader at Goldman got $1 million and he's only 26.

Thoogsby fucked around with this message at Jan 29, 2011 around 17:01

Its Miller Time
Dec 4, 2004



Admirable Gusto posted:

It's harder to generalize since there's much more variation, unlike analyst level where all banks try to hit the industry standard with a slight boutique premium.

Very broadly (emphasis on very; this is all-in gross comp with ~40% coming from base and the rest bonus):

Up to $500k for hybrids like Centerbridge
$275-400k for megafunds like TPG
$200-325k for mid-market like Gores Group

with lots of variation depending on how the fund does, individual performance and general comp culture at the firm

Hedge funds are impossible to generalize, except I would expect a base draw above $100k

That's crazy money for what could be a 24 year old, I thought $100-150k max. Wow.

nnnotime
Sep 30, 2001

Hesitate, and you will be lost.

LactoseO.D.'d posted:

Can someone give me an example of something I would be expected to use VBA for in Excel in an IB environment? I get so much functionality off of just the macro recorder, I have a tough time envisioning what I would actually need to bust out some code for.
There are a few applications where VBA comes in handy. I've built all of the below with macros within IBs, some of the functionality already developed by business people (I work on the IT side):

In equities you could use macros to build unofficial trade notifications or confirmations for clients from raw data, if your order management system doesn't already provide the feature.

VBA could be used in the trading desk's front-office for building price forecasting models (based on related market and industry data) and spitting out results in an organized format.

For mid-office VBA can be used to transform data from one format to another, such as if you need to take trades from one system and import them into another, but the two systems don't have a direct interface.

VBA can also be used to do support reconciliations, if you are in the mid to back-office.

There are ways to kludge existing VBA functions like vlookup to provide some of the functionality above, but VBA coding helps to keep the spreadsheets a little cleaner.

It can help keep your code organized if you learn how to create a VBA Add-in, and also learn how classes and collections work. Also learn the range and offset objects.

CounterRandom
Jul 19, 2006

YES WE CAN

I had a quick question for everyone in the investment banking field.

I'm a senior studying physics, math, and electrical engineering. I have good grades, several publications, and have presented at an academic conference. I have a lot of research and work experience; however, it is all in physics and engineering. I have recently decided that I wanted to try and join the financial service industries, specifically investment banking. I have no training in finance and no work experience related to the field.

I have been applying hard to try and get an internship after graduation, but after about 200 emails/applications, I have only managed to get one interview with a boutique firm. Am I wasting my time looking for an internship? Would my time be better spent taking some finance classes after I graduate to improve my resume?

I have some pretty good job prospects at some engineering companies, but I really would much rather work in finance.

Also, if anyone could recommend some good introductory finance books that would be useful to study I would be very appreciative.

Unluckyimmortal
Jul 22, 2007


CounterRandom posted:

I had a quick question for everyone in the investment banking field.

I'm a senior studying physics, math, and electrical engineering. I have good grades, several publications, and have presented at an academic conference. I have a lot of research and work experience; however, it is all in physics and engineering. I have recently decided that I wanted to try and join the financial service industries, specifically investment banking. I have no training in finance and no work experience related to the field.

I have been applying hard to try and get an internship after graduation, but after about 200 emails/applications, I have only managed to get one interview with a boutique firm. Am I wasting my time looking for an internship? Would my time be better spent taking some finance classes after I graduate to improve my resume?

I have some pretty good job prospects at some engineering companies, but I really would much rather work in finance.

Also, if anyone could recommend some good introductory finance books that would be useful to study I would be very appreciative.
From what I've seen as a college senior looking for either a masters or PhD in finance after I graduate, you would be very well suited to taking the GMAT, aceing it, and applying to finance graduate programs. It may add a year or two, but about half of the resumes I've looked at that belong to current PhD candidates in finance at tier 1 business schools have had backgrounds in engineering, science, or mathematics. It may be easier to simply go to grad school for finance for a couple years and then get recruited directly from that program.

As far as introductory books go -- try looking at upper level finance courses at your university, finding out what textbooks they use, then buying older editions if possible. In particular, some variation of "corporate finance" will get you started on basic concepts, then "investments" and "derivatives" are the other things to look for.

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got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


CounterRandom posted:

I have a lot of research and work experience; however, it is all in physics and engineering. I have recently decided that I wanted to try and join the financial service industries, specifically investment banking. I have no training in finance and no work experience related to the field.

The problem is that people in the field tend to stereotype. They want their hires to fit a certain mold - finance/accounting coursework, relevant internships, the right feeder schools, etc. People will look at your resume and think quant (ie. algorithmic trading and related activities) straight away, not sell-side

I was originally a Computer Science undergrad and had a ton of Comp Sci related experience by the time I was a junior, including an internship at a very large tech firm. In retrospect that experience might have been more of a hindrance than a help when I was recruiting for junior internships. If it was difficult for me as a junior, it's going to be pretty tough for you as a graduate.

Ultimately your best bet may be to i) change your job expectations and tailor yourself to fit a more quantitative role in finance, possibly involving a Masters in Finance and interviews with hedge funds/prop shops and the like; or ii) work in as closely related a field as possible, then go get an MBA from a highly ranked business school and break into the industry from there. An MBA is basically your one-chance career do-over.

e> Well either a business school that's highly ranked nationally, or one that is big in your particular local market

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