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Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Mr. Nice! posted:

The huge exaggerated step is actually an inside leg kick and one of Dan’s setups for the BRH.

Ah! There was a time when I knew this well, just shows how little attention I pay to it now.

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Forceholy
Nov 10, 2007

My Voice Just Echoes Off These Walls


Speaking of Brits being murdered by Big shots,

Didn't Condit drop Dan Hardy with a good shot in the UK? I remember a bunch of celebrities watching in the crowd and Robert Downey Jr. being the only one cheering as the Brit was dropped.

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"


Forceholy posted:

Speaking of Brits being murdered by Big shots,

Didn't Condit drop Dan Hardy with a good shot in the UK? I remember a bunch of celebrities watching in the crowd and Robert Downey Jr. being the only one cheering as the Brit was dropped.

They traded hooks, and Condit was first.

Memento
Aug 25, 2009




Bleak Gremlin

What are some really fuckin' sweet pure grappling matches? ADCC, mundials, gi, no-gi, whatever. Link me some awesome scrambles and ridiculous subs.

FreakyMetalKid
Nov 23, 2003



Memento posted:

What are some really fuckin' sweet pure grappling matches? ADCC, mundials, gi, no-gi, whatever. Link me some awesome scrambles and ridiculous subs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0088BT-DfeI

The rematch between Royler Gracie and Eddie Bravo is the basis of my jiu jitsu life.

butros
Aug 2, 2007

I believe the signs of the reptile master




Memento posted:

What are some really fuckin' sweet pure grappling matches? ADCC, mundials, gi, no-gi, whatever. Link me some awesome scrambles and ridiculous subs.

Any Quintet.

Nestharken
Mar 23, 2006

The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.


Memento posted:

What are some really fuckin' sweet pure grappling matches? ADCC, mundials, gi, no-gi, whatever. Link me some awesome scrambles and ridiculous subs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g06mHKoEl7g

I mean, look at that preview pic.

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005



I hadn’t watched Tonen/Palhares. Its amazing.

Memento
Aug 25, 2009




Bleak Gremlin

butros posted:

Any Quintet.

These have been tons of fun, thanks. And thanks to the other posters who put up those links. Quality stuff.

Jiro
Jan 12, 2004



https://www.themonitor.com/2019/10/...os-payne-arena/

The Monitor Newspaper posted:

The Hispanic Mixed Martial Arts organization Combate Americas announced its return to the Rio Grande Valley on Saturday, Dec. 7 with an “unprecedented and historic ‘Winner Take All’ title-belt challenge” between former UFC champion Tito Ortiz and former WWE champion Alberto “El Patrón” Del Rio at Payne Arena in Hidalgo.

Ortiz, a UFC Hall of Fame member and pioneer of the sport, will take on Del Rio, a former Pan American Games Greco Roman wrestling medalist with multiple MMA fights under the PRIDE banner.

The “Winner Take All” bout will be fought at a catchweight of 210-pounds. If Ortiz emerges victorious, El Patrón will have to hand over his WWE title belt. If El Patrón wins, however, Ortiz will have to give his UFC title belt to his opponent.

“This is a one-of-a-kind, larger than life fight – one of the greatest MMA superstars of all-time, facing off with one of professional wrestling’s most decorated champions and an accomplished MMA fighter in his own right,” Combate Americas CEO Campbell McLaren said in a news release. “On top of all that, these two legends are putting their belts where their mouths are. It’s the type of fight that comes around once or twice in a lifetime, and Combate Americas is going to deliver it to fans worldwide from the U.S.-Mexico border.”

The last time Ortiz saw MMA action, he scored a first-round knockout of fellow UFC Hall of Famer Chuck Liddell on Nov. 24, 2018. “The Huntington Beach Bad Boy” holds a record of 20-12-1 with 10 career knockouts, four submissions and six wins by way of decision.

Meanwhile, El Patrón (9-5, 3 KOs, 6 Submissions) announced his return to MMA with Combate Americas last October and will now make his debut against Ortiz on December 7 in Hidalgo.

Tickets for the event go on sale at 10 a.m. Friday, Oct. 11 at Ticketmaster.com.

So I didn't know where to put this, it's weird former WWE talent news, it's some retired rear end UFC talent news. It's happening just south of my home town. I'm.......I'm just like holy poo poo.

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"


while this is clearly z-grade trash, the B-League thread is the place for such things

Memento
Aug 25, 2009




Bleak Gremlin

Benson Henderson fought MMA fights at the highest level with a toothpick in his mouth.

I guess my question is, is MMA the dumbest sport in the world?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



I gotta think the competitive slap matches are dumber.

forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

I thought the redtext someone dumped on you was in bad taste and a bit much so here's a corgi instead.

Memento posted:

Benson Henderson fought MMA fights at the highest level with a toothpick in his mouth.

I guess my question is, is MMA the dumbest sport in the world?

Yes and that's when it is at its best, when it leans into being spectacularly dumb rather than when it tries to kid on it is a legit sport.

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

Cabana's legal advice?
I'm bourgeoisie.
I... hit the shitty
firemans carry knee.






Memento posted:

Benson Henderson fought MMA fights at the highest level with a toothpick in his mouth.

I guess my question is, is MMA the dumbest sport in the world?

Yes because when Benson got caught with it it lead to one of the most awkward Rogan interviews as he kept trying to deny it.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

I will NEVER become THE PIRATE KING!!! I am just a lazy, hypocritical idiot.


So what exactly is the deal between Mike Tyson and Teddy Atlas? Apparently, teenage Mike sexually harassed his little sister so he pulled a gun on him? Or is he just making stuff up?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



punk rebel ecks posted:

So what exactly is the deal between Mike Tyson and Teddy Atlas? Apparently, teenage Mike sexually harassed his little sister so he pulled a gun on him? Or is he just making stuff up?

Mike was a wild kid and Cus D'Amato, his main trainer, gave him a very limited, specific social structure outside of boxing training, which didn't give Tyson a lot of growth.

The story you see in biographies is as you heard --
Mike didn't know how to act and groped Atlas' sister. Teddy Atlas freaked out, went over to Tyson and told him to stay away.

This is the denial and half explanation Mike told much later:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z69P5CDF5so#t=22s

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

I will NEVER become THE PIRATE KING!!! I am just a lazy, hypocritical idiot.


kimbo305 posted:

Mike was a wild kid and Cus D'Amato, his main trainer, gave him a very limited, specific social structure outside of boxing training, which didn't give Tyson a lot of growth.

The story you see in biographies is as you heard --
Mike didn't know how to act and groped Atlas' sister. Teddy Atlas freaked out, went over to Tyson and told him to stay away.

This is the denial and half explanation Mike told much later:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z69P5CDF5so#t=22s

Yeah, I saw that interview and it bothered me.

What do you mean by he "gave him a very limited, specific social structure outside of boxing training?" Like he was too strict with him or he let him do whatever he wanted?

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


If I remember right, Cus was super-strict with him. One thing that always stands out in my memory is seeing footage of Tyson winning his first fight and starting to celebrate, then immediately shutting down because Cus just grunts at him to stop acting up and go thank his opponent for the fight. Seems like he had very little in the way of a release valve and once he had the freedom he just went completely overboard (happily allowed by Don King who didn't give a gently caress so long as the KOs and the big money kept rolling in).

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

I will NEVER become THE PIRATE KING!!! I am just a lazy, hypocritical idiot.


Jerusalem posted:

If I remember right, Cus was super-strict with him. One thing that always stands out in my memory is seeing footage of Tyson winning his first fight and starting to celebrate, then immediately shutting down because Cus just grunts at him to stop acting up and go thank his opponent for the fight. Seems like he had very little in the way of a release valve and once he had the freedom he just went completely overboard (happily allowed by Don King who didn't give a gently caress so long as the KOs and the big money kept rolling in).

Tony Atlas said in a video that Mike would act wild outside the ring all the time and Cus would allow it. Unless he's exaggerating.

Stealth Tiger
Nov 14, 2009



Yeah the way Mike Tyson explains it in his biography, he had been through so much disciplinary poo poo like juvenile detention early on in his life and grew up in such a lovely life that he had no confidence. So Cus started to treat Mike like he was special and let him get away with some stuff. Cus was mad if people really got on Mike about anything because he thought it would just make Mike think "this guy is right, I really am a piece of poo poo". So Cus fired Teddy Atlas when he heard about what happened.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



punk rebel ecks posted:

What do you mean by he "gave him a very limited, specific social structure outside of boxing training?" Like he was too strict with him or he let him do whatever he wanted?

Cus wanted Mike to show up to the gym to train, go back to his house to eat dinner, and behave when he was under Cus' watch.
Beyond those settings, he never tried to give Mike extra guidance on life.
Atlas' take was that Cus was cutting corners, possibly subconsciously, to fast track Mike to an HW belt before he died.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Thanks, I had the wrong end of the stick on that one, I always thought Cus was more omnipresent in his life as a disciplinarian as opposed to just in regards to his training.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

I will NEVER become THE PIRATE KING!!! I am just a lazy, hypocritical idiot.


Stealth Tiger posted:

Yeah the way Mike Tyson explains it in his biography, he had been through so much disciplinary poo poo like juvenile detention early on in his life and grew up in such a lovely life that he had no confidence. So Cus started to treat Mike like he was special and let him get away with some stuff. Cus was mad if people really got on Mike about anything because he thought it would just make Mike think "this guy is right, I really am a piece of poo poo". So Cus fired Teddy Atlas when he heard about what happened.

Umm...sexual assault sounds like a pretty major thing. If what Atlas said is true than Cus must have really been in denial.

kimbo305 posted:

Cus wanted Mike to show up to the gym to train, go back to his house to eat dinner, and behave when he was under Cus' watch.
Beyond those settings, he never tried to give Mike extra guidance on life.
Atlas' take was that Cus was cutting corners, possibly subconsciously, to fast track Mike to an HW belt before he died.

I see.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Jerusalem posted:

Thanks, I had the wrong end of the stick on that one, I always thought Cus was more omnipresent in his life as a disciplinarian as opposed to just in regards to his training.

He had Tyson live with him most of the time, but Tyson could have gone back to the city when he wanted. He did like the training, of course, which is why he did so much of it.

Stealth Tiger
Nov 14, 2009



punk rebel ecks posted:

Umm...sexual assault sounds like a pretty major thing. If what Atlas said is true than Cus must have really been in denial.



I realize my first response left out some stuff, so I will add more context. There is an interesting thread Mike Tyson writes about where Cus was this great guy and a father figure to him, but at the same time Mike felt like really he was just a project Cus had to get revenge on the boxing world. Cus D'amato had been super successful when he was a younger trainer but got fed up with the boxing world and distanced himself from a lot of it and grew spiteful. Mike was the grand project that would prove Cus was right all along. It read to me like Cus would never make a decision that would keep Mike away from training for even a single second. So if there was a conflict between Mike and a trainer, it was the trainer who was gone. If Mike did commit a crime, I assume Cus wasn't going to have him deal with court and possibly prison. I don't think he was in denial about it, he just made the Machiavellian decision to prioritize his golden goose at all costs.

Stealth Tiger fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jan 1, 2020

Jack B Nimble
Dec 25, 2007




Soiled Meat

What's so tragic about it is Teddy Atlas already, even at that time, had a long background mentoring and guiding troubled kids, that's the kind of gym and boarding house Cus supposedly ran, but in the special case of Tyson he just couldn't or wouldn't follow his own rules.

If Cus and Atlas had treated Tyson differently he might have ended up a much healthier person, but he might also have just been one more troubled kid that did some boxing at a rec center.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Hope this is the right place to ask this.... I'm just a wrestling fan reliving the Monday Night Wars and I'm curious about something.

How big a deal was Ken Shamrock back in the 90s in the MMA world? How about today? I know nothing of UFC or any of that. I imagine the sport expanding massively in the last 20 years means that he and others from his era must seem almost quaint in comparison.

Alvarez seems to know MMA and he says even in the 90s calling Ken the best MMA guy ever or anything would be stretching it a lot.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



NikkolasKing posted:

Hope this is the right place to ask this.... I'm just a wrestling fan reliving the Monday Night Wars and I'm curious about something.

How big a deal was Ken Shamrock back in the 90s in the MMA world? How about today? I know nothing of UFC or any of that. I imagine the sport expanding massively in the last 20 years means that he and others from his era must seem almost quaint in comparison.

Alvarez seems to know MMA and he says even in the 90s calling Ken the best MMA guy ever or anything would be stretching it a lot.

He was famous and he won a few but he didn't win a lot. Even by the later half of the decade he was doing more pro wrestling than real fighting. He lost like every high profile fight he fought under the unified rules, too. His best win in the 90s was submitting Dan Severn, and their rematch was one of the worst fights in the sport's history. I guess he submitted Bas Rutten in Pancrase too, but that was when Bas Rutten's entire grappling knowledge came from looking at pictures of guys grappling, and some fights in Pancrase were works so (I haven't sorted through every old Pancrase fight to decide work vs shoot).

So like... he was more of a deal as a personality than as a top fighter. He was one of the few guys in the first two UFCs who actually knew what he was doing as a whole. He looked like a pro wrestler and he knew how to hype a fight like a pro wrestler. After like 1996 he was competitively irrelevant beyond being a name to build prospects on.

Today he has a reputation for being a bit of a crazy old weirdo, but he gets a lot of grudging respect for being one of the people crazy enough to try this poo poo out way back when nobody had any idea what it was or how it should work. He started one of the first teams with true cross training, so that's a major contribution too. He had a hillarious fight a few years back to do the trilogy with Royce Gracie which ended with Ken losing via TKO (intentional low blow).

Now I will defend Frank Shamrock as absolutely one of the greatest ever. I'm not sure if that's an unpopular opinion here, since nobody ever talks about Frank Shamrock.

MysteryNad
Dec 5, 2003

Here in my guard
I feel safest of all
I can lock up my guard
It's the only way to fight
In guard


NikkolasKing posted:

Hope this is the right place to ask this.... I'm just a wrestling fan reliving the Monday Night Wars and I'm curious about something.

How big a deal was Ken Shamrock back in the 90s in the MMA world? How about today? I know nothing of UFC or any of that. I imagine the sport expanding massively in the last 20 years means that he and others from his era must seem almost quaint in comparison.

Alvarez seems to know MMA and he says even in the 90s calling Ken the best MMA guy ever or anything would be stretching it a lot.

There was, and still is a big crossover between MMA and Rassling in Japan. Shamrock was pretty popular over there in pro-wrestling after his match with Funaki and had previous "MMA" fights (though possibly worked as it was Pancrase and one of them was against Funaki himself) before UFC 1. He was definitely one of the very few people at UFC 1 who stood a better than 0% chance against Royce at the time. It's not surprising he lost via Gi choke though. He knew nothing about BJJ, but then no one else did at that event either aside from Jason DeLucia. He went on to get more (possibly dubious) wins in Pancrase over good fighters like Bas Rutten and Mo Smith before they became UFC champs but he was never able to get that title himself. He wasn't the best but he had a solid record overall at his peak. Definitely one of the top fighters of the very early days so calling him a big deal is fair. Best MMA guy? Probably not.

And yeah, like CommonShore said, his big personality and the way he built up the Lion's Den camp was probably the biggest part of his legacy.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



MysteryNad posted:

And yeah, like CommonShore said, his big personality and the way he built up the Lion's Den camp was probably the biggest part of his legacy.

As part of the UFC celebrating its 20th anniversary, they released a series of documentaries about the early days of the sport: one of the topics was Ken Shamrock. The parts I found the most interesting were about the Lions Den. If you have Fight Pass I'd recommend checking it out.

Jack B Nimble
Dec 25, 2007




Soiled Meat

Yeah as was said the Lion's Den was one of the first two produce truly complete fighters. When that first generation of Lion's Den fighters made their debut, in like UFC 15 or whatever, there was suddenly, immediately, a divide between early and modern MMA.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

I will NEVER become THE PIRATE KING!!! I am just a lazy, hypocritical idiot.


Count Roland posted:

As part of the UFC celebrating its 20th anniversary, they released a series of documentaries about the early days of the sport: one of the topics was Ken Shamrock. The parts I found the most interesting were about the Lions Den. If you have Fight Pass I'd recommend checking it out.

I think this is the documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxUXAZ0ORvE

These people literally are, breathed, slept MMA. Wouldn't they overtrain themselves? I mean 3 hours of straight sparring sessions sounds...extreme.

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005



punk rebel ecks posted:

I think this is the documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxUXAZ0ORvE

These people literally are, breathed, slept MMA. Wouldn't they overtrain themselves? I mean 3 hours of straight sparring sessions sounds...extreme.

Steroids are a hell of a drug.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



they 100% absolutely overtrained and injured themselves. That's a big part of why Frank Shamrock left.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008

A group of very serious old men sat around and discussed whether or not I had the requisite dignity and grace of a grand champion.


CommonShore posted:

they 100% absolutely overtrained and injured themselves. That's a big part of why Frank Shamrock left.

I just started following sumo (January tournament thread in RR now) and it is no poo poo exactly like MMA circa 1999. They train for hours a day and far past exhaustion, they are expected to train through any injury that doesn't put you in hospital, and any deviation from this sort of poo poo gets you called a pussy (in politer, Japanese-ier terms) and hazed / ostracised by your peers. It's going to be loving rad when one of the stables trains with modern methods because they will immediately start dominating purely because all their fighters aren't carrying half a dozen injuries and in a state of perpetual total exhaustion.

MysteryNad
Dec 5, 2003

Here in my guard
I feel safest of all
I can lock up my guard
It's the only way to fight
In guard


Yeah, reminder that Ken Shamrock made Tito Ortiz look like a genius for an entire season of TUF

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"


MysteryNad posted:

Yeah, reminder that Ken Shamrock made Tito Ortiz look like a genius for an entire season of TUF

Ken didnt have a jiu-jitsu coach, but he did have a strength and conditioning guy that cooked steaks for the team

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!




Marching Powder posted:

I just started following sumo (January tournament thread in RR now) and it is no poo poo exactly like MMA circa 1999. They train for hours a day and far past exhaustion, they are expected to train through any injury that doesn't put you in hospital, and any deviation from this sort of poo poo gets you called a pussy (in politer, Japanese-ier terms) and hazed / ostracised by your peers. It's going to be loving rad when one of the stables trains with modern methods because they will immediately start dominating purely because all their fighters aren't carrying half a dozen injuries and in a state of perpetual total exhaustion.

Training in a way that works is probably illegal and/or would get your dick chopped off by yakuza

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mariooncrack
Dec 27, 2008


Ken was important in the early days but his feud with Tito in the 2000's was huge too. The first two fights made records for PPV buys and the third fight was the highest rating on TV for the UFC. He may not have been the best fighter but he was a huge draw for awhile.

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