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Feb 8, 2009

projecthalaxy posted:

Are there any real single-style guys left in high-level MMA? I guess Roger Gracie might count, but even he seems to be succumbing to wrestleboxing.

Also, is the oil check the gayest technique in Our Gay Sport?

The short answer to your question is no.

That being said there are a few fighters who tend to stay "true" to their background. Dustin Hazlett is pretty incredibad as a striker and has a really entertaining style it's very much an attacking form of Jiu Jitsu.

Look up some of Lyoto Machida's fights against Rashad Evans most notably; to see someone use some pretty obvious Karate (shotokan) striking to dominate one of the top light heavy weights in the world and the at-the-time champion. Karo Parysian is a Judoka who used to be pretty good all round till he became manic depressive and a pain killer addict.

TBH, what makes MMA great is to see a guy come out throwing strikes from different styles then take someone down and use Jiu Jitsu, it's really the whole idea of the sport now, but there's still some cool poo poo you can see that is identifiable from different styles, Pat Barry has thrown some great kicks, Cung Le also has used some Sanshou based stuff in his fights, the aforementioned Machida throwing combinations after timing what some would deem a suicidal leap to perfection, Axe Kicks from Crocop, Lateral drops etc are all loving great to see, but they're more sprinkled in fights.

Seeing pure styles is a thing of the past, even Machida who has probably the most identifiable striking style has great Jiu Jitsu and a very solid wrestling base that allow him to do what he does. My advice is more to just watch the high level guys at their best in the fight mentioned above and I garantee you'll find someone who's style you find entertaining whether you are just one of the "just bleed" dudes or someone who appreciates martial arts.


Feb 8, 2009

Solice Kirsk posted:

I'd say Paul Daley is pretty one dimensional still. And he may be fighting for the Strikeforce belt soon!

Right after I posted this I thought of Paul Daley as a pretty pure Muai Thai based striker, probably add Jose Aldo to the mix and Shinya Aoki as a pure grappler.

One could argue too Pat Barry as pretty much a pure striker. As far as definable one style guys, they don't really exist.

Feb 8, 2009

Boregasm posted:

I'd say Daley is a Sprawl n' Brawler, which implies he has a VERY basic idea of takedown defense and hanging on for dear life when he does get taken down. Pat Barry has horrendous takedown defense and has been on the receiving end of Crocop (of all people) and Tim Hague (jesus christ) chokes.

Just read the pro wrestling counterpart to this thread and I think adding a glossary of our MMA terms to the OP would be informative. For instance, British Single, Wrestling Ruins Everything, enjoyable human being Punch(es), etc. There's a whole world of terms that we throw around pretty often without thinking.

I think this would be helpful too, because quite often I found myself saying "wtf" when I first started lurking the mma threads.

maybe an MMA style glossary as well.

"Sprawl n' Brawl"
A fighter who does everything possible to keep the fight standing. Notable examples: Mirko Crocop, Chuck Lidell, Rampage Jackson, Junior Dos Santos, BJ Penn through most of his title run.

"Ground n' Pound"
Primarily wrestlers who rely on their well-grounded ability (usually collegiate) to take their opponent down and rain strikes in order to TKO, KO or decision their opponent. Notable examples: Matt Hughes, Tito Ortiz (whilst champion), Mark Munoz, Chael Sonnen

Either way these two styles generally require a fighter to have at least some level of wrestling ability.

"Wrestling ruins everything"
The ability of the top wrestlers in most divisions being able to literally lie on their opponent and control their posture for between 15 and 25 minutes depending on the fight. These fighters generally use "enjoyable human being punches", small inconsequential, damageless, powerless punches that do no real damage to appear as if they're remaining active (to avoid referees standing up the fight) and prolong their opponents boredom, frustration or agony, usually all three. Note: This is the ugly sister of ground and pound.

BlindSite fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Feb 2, 2011

Feb 8, 2009

1st AD posted:

Yeah, I think some kind of general grappling FAQ is absolutely needed, because people generally get why things in boxing/kickboxing/muay thai work in MMA but as soon as a fight moves to the clinch or to the ground it's like voodoo. It should include:

-Clinch work, important of underhooks, takedowns from the clinch
-Grappling in a ring vs. grappling in a cage
-All the standard BJJ positions + less common stuff like a top crucifix or rubber guard, why passing and posture are important, etc.
-All the basic joint locks and chokes, maybe a couple obscure ones like gogoplata or peruvian neck ties

"The Clinch"

Clinch fighting is one of the most under-appreciated and important aspects of MMA. One of the greatest of all time won world titles because of his talent in the clinch and realistically it's often an overlooked part of a fighters' repertoire. It's also not overly easy to explain because of the intricacies involved in trying to describe the ins and outs of what looks like two sweaty brutes hugging.

The clinch is what's considered a largely neutral, standing grappling position. It's recognised as the most effective way to slow the pace of a fight and neutralise an opponents striking. This is different to the "Thai Clinch" more on that later though.

This can be applied from front on, behind an opponent and standing to one side.

"underhooks and whizzers"

An underhook involves having on arm under your opponents armpit and your forearm and hand around their back in order to control their midsection / upper body. Double underhooks is both arms, a more controlling position in the clinch.

A Whizzer or overhook, though a weaker position than the underhook is considered a counter to underhooks, traditionally it was done in an attempt to bearhug an opponent and trap their arms to their body, in MMA it's more done to prevent your opponent getting the necessary leverage to perform a body lock takedown (think a nice tight hug to either a trip or lean in order to pull someone to the floor), double leg takedown (rugby tackle). It also prevents being suplexed (somehow I think wrestle hut dudes know what this is).

The clinch in MMA often involves pressing your opponent into the cage in an attempt to tire them out and dictate the pace of the fight. It's also an easier way to initiate a takedown if efforts during regular exchanges have failed. Wrestlers and grapplers often attempt to employ this technique when facing "sprawl and brawl" fighters or in BJ Penn's case, a fighter who's got uncanny balance, agility and avoidance-of-takedowns ability.

It can make a fight more exciting and it can also make it extremely boring when two gassed out (exhausted) heavyweights just lean against the fence throwing enjoyable human being punches while they catch their breath until the ref separates them.

If you're watching a fighter the guy in the clinch who's got the underhooks has the more dominant position even if their back is against the cage, getting underhooks can lead to some explosive reversals and offense.

If no one has I'll explain the difference with a thai clinch tomorrow.

Feb 8, 2009

Hockles posted:

Two other questions that that video reminded me of:

1) They put gel on their face to make strikes glance off and do less damage, right?

2) I remember it in boxing and might have seen it in UFC, but what is the silver metal looking circle thing that corner-men rub on fighter's face and back?

The vaseline is used sometimes as a bit of a coagulant but more it's to stop punches sticking it also helps to stop cuts from forming as badly and bleeding as profusely.

The metal thing is used to help reduce swelling, usually it sits in an ice bucket so it's extremely cold. I don't know why they'd use it on their back but I know some fighters have referenced the ice packs on the back of their neck help them to feel more alert and focus between rounds, refreshing them a little and clearing the cob webbs.

The whole cut science is really interesting this is a great article on cuts in combat sports in general

EDIT: Something I wanted to add too: in boxing they use their own cutman in their corner, in the UFC they use an allocated cutman, the reason for this is greasing. Fighters in the past have been accused and guilty of having lotions or greases or vaseline applied to their body in between and before rounds in order to make it harder for an opposing fighter to properly grab hold of them. The rules were actually changed to their current state after one of these scandals, it's even caused results to be overturned to No Contests in the past.

BlindSite fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Feb 2, 2011

Feb 8, 2009

Jack Anderson posted:

I casually watch UFC so I know a few fighters, but feel like asking anyway, who are some really good fighters in UFC and MMA in general?

BJ Penn (now fights at WW)
Gray Maynard
Frank Edgar
George Sotiropolis
Jim Miller
Clay Guida
Kenny Florian

Nick Diaz
Nate Diaz
George St Pierre
John Fitch (new comers will find him boring)
Thiago Alves (really great for new comers)
Matt Hughes (his old stuff)
Aaron Kampmann

Chael Sonnen
Anderson Silva
Damian Maia
Yushin Okami
Nate Marqhardt
Michael Bisping
Wanderlei Silva

Light Heavyweight
Ryan Bader
Johnny Bones Jones
Lyoto Machida
Forrest Griffin (all his fights are fun to watch)
Shogun Rua
Rampage Jackson
Chuck Liddell (any of his title fights)
Rashad Evans

Cain Velasquez
Big Nog
Fedor (formerly)
Alistair Overeem
Brock Lesnar
Junior Dos Santos
Goon favourite Roy Nelson

Feb 8, 2009

2 fat 4 my lambo posted:

the only time i remember this happening recently is with Nelson Hamilton rescoring the Shogun-Machida fight, and his argument - that having no TV feed caused him to miss some of the action - is a legit one

Even so, this decision gets a lot of flac because of Peoples, and also because Hamilton later went on to say that upon viewing the fight again he thought Shogun won, but at the end of the night the decision wasn't split, all three scored it 48-47 in favor of Machida, this is one of the few where a judge gets blamed for being lovely when all three had the same margin of victory, I've never understood this great coniption over this fight.

Feb 8, 2009

fatherdog posted:

Wikipedia articles are good; also a brief blurb for each matchup explaining what it means (if anything) in the division or for each fighter's career. It doesn't have to be a huge exhaustive analysis, but something that gives newcomers some kind of context for the fights would be good.

In general you gotta expect that for the next few events we're gonna have a lot more newer people reading the threads so some effort towards making it easy for them to understand what's going on would be appreciated on all sides, I think.

Also just because kensei's doing the OP doesn't mean other people can't chime in as well. Once the thread gets posted, if there's a particular match you're really interested in, feel free to post in the thread giving more details about the background of the fight.

And yeah, Thursday afternoon is fine. At the very least, the thread should be up by Friday afternoon so people who watch the weigh-ins can post about them in it.

I'm bored at work, so I might punch one or two out in between doing something I'm paid to do.

Forrest Griffin v Rich Franklin

Rich Franklin is one of the UFCs most successful fighters his only losses have come at the hands of champions Dan Henderson a former pride GP winner, Anderson Silva the current MW champion, Vitor Belfort, facing Silva for the title and Lyoto Machida, former light heavy weight champion. Though he found most of his success at middle weight he made the decision to go up in weight to the light heavyweight division after being unable to retain or win back his title from Anderson Silva.

He's widely recognised as one of the best technical fighters in the UFC, he has crisp stand up as shown in his title win over evan tanner and his defeat of Matt Hammil, his defensive Jiu Jitsu is considered solid overall and he's shown in the past a decent offensive wrestling pedigree. He's very well rounded and has a wealth of experience. At 36 it's understandable that he's considered to be on the downside of his career and recently he's suffered injuries that have kept him out of regular competition.

For his career to have any real meaning over the next year or so he has to win against Forrest Griffin. The LHW division is considered one of, if not the most competitive division and it'll require a solid victory to even sniff title contention.

Forrest Griffin is a former light heavy weight champion who's rise to fame occured during the opening season of the Ultimate Fighter. The finale of the event saw a fight that almost undoubtedly saved the UFC and earned him his professional contract. Griffin had an up and down beginning to his career, largely due to his often self destructive fighting style. That both hindered his career as a fighter and endeared him to fans worldwide.

At times his striking seems almost child-like and amatuerish and he has a habit of wading forward throwing power after being rocked which has lead to him being on the receiving end of some highlight reel KOs. Griffin's also well known for his heart as he's probably the the gutsiest fighter to step foot in the octagon. As of late however he has shown an improvement in his technical ability. He's a well rounded striker who won a title using damaging leg kicks and an previously unseen sound strategy. He's a huge BJJ fan and if he retired tomorrow he'd likely continue to compete and train in that arena for that reason he has an active guard and strong top game. He recently earned his black belt and despite his reputation as more of a scrappy stand up brawler has won the majority of his fights by submission.

What to Expect
The question here is which version of Forrest Griffin will show up. If it's the calm and considered Forrest I would expect to see a solid technical stand up matchup with takedowns late in the round from either fighter. Forrest will likely have an advantage in the clinch game due to his sheer size and strength he stands 2 inches taller and weighs possibly up to 20-25 pounds more come fight time.

By the same token this could turn into a scrap fest that will be lucky to last past the second round.

Either way you're garanteed a solid fight, I don't recall either of these fighters ever turning up out of shape, lazy and unwilling to engage and put on a show, it should be noted too however that Griffin should have some legitimate ring rust as this will be his first action since november 2009. While this isn't a do-or-die contract wise fight for either fighter, it is a fight that will likely set the tone for their immediate future. Both want a title shot, both are coming from relatively large career set backs and both need a win to become relevant in the UFC title picture.

Feb 8, 2009

attackmole posted:

Not really. Well, I guess if done well the audience doesn't notice so maybe it happens way more often than I think, but even by professional fighter standards it's an rear end in a top hat thing to do. It also rarely works. The only high profile fighter I can think of who's known for doing it is Matt Lindland and his Team Quest buddies. You can see his training partner and noted rear end in a top hat Chael Sonnen try to pull it in his fight against Silva, but the ref spots it and counts it.

It's just a lovely desperation move that you do if you're a prick and you're about to lose.

Conversely though it's not overly uncommon to see a guy tapping two or three times, then much more overtly when the ref doesn't notice it.

Feb 8, 2009

Bundt Cake posted:

the ufc displays the reach on the tale of the tape. they could measure the mother fuckers arms if they wanted to

You're just pickin' fights today aren't ya.

Feb 8, 2009

JamMaster Flash posted:

MMA fighter reporting in.

I have a part time job that pays most of the bills (and gives me health insurance, that is the main benefit). I am a brown belt in BJJ so I teach group and private lessons on the side as well.

I have gotten free stitches a couple times after fights, but like fatherdog said, most of my real injuries come from training.

But yeah, my typical day is working 4am - 12pm then training, chilling for a few hours then training again. On days I don't work I can train more, and I will usually try to pull less hours if I am getting ready for a fight.

It's a tough lifestyle, especially lower on the food chain...I essentially have to work as hard as the top guys in order to compete with them, but I also have to make sure I have enough money for MRI's, new shinguards and fish oil. I have been told by my trainer that to make it you have to make sacrifices, and I have learned that firsthand during my amateur and pro career. I plan on seeing how far I can take it, since I am still young and I feel I am getting better every day. There's no better encouragement than that!

If anyone is interested maybe I could make a thread for questions or something, since there's all this space in the new subforum, haha.

Good spot for you to hit up sponsors too, I had a toxx on getting an SASMMA patch on your shorts or something IIRC still stands.

Feb 8, 2009

Well that was the thing, I didn't get contacted with the price and no one came through with the art.

As long as it's either

Internet Top Team



Punchsport Pagoda

With a recogniseable logo I'm still happy to foot the bill. Just need someone to do the logo and prices for sizes and locations etc.

Feb 8, 2009

Bean Fried posted:

The answer is Boxing, an international sport that they have several world champions in.

A year ago the answer might have been Sumo, but Sumo's current implosion is absolutely mythic. The top division's Spring Tournament was just canceled for the first time since 1946, and things are just getting worse. It is roughly comparable to when the Chicago White Sox threw the World Series.

Judo is considered Japan's national sport too to a degree, and is widespread in high school in college, but is not something fought professionally.

K-1 is also bigger than MMA right now, even if it's kind of in trouble too, although FEG will fold DREAM first to protect it.

Anyway, even if big league JMMA dies, there are still a fair amount of grass roots promotions like Shooto, Pancrase, DEEP, and Valkyrie (chick fights). Sengoku is kind of on its way to becoming this sort of promotion, simply in order to survive, as they just released their highly-regarded Middleweight Champion Jorge Santiago (he's on a lot of top 10 lists and will probably go to StrikeForce). I have no idea where puroresu is compared to these but obviously it still exists, and will continue to exist in one form or another.

With the UFC's model I wouldn't be surprised if they got some shows in the coming years. Which I think would lead to the feeding of the UFC's ranks through the smaller organisations, even if it leads to a british kind of thing where guys are signed for local cards then get wrestlefucked a few times on undercards.

Feb 8, 2009

A Pale Horse posted:

That I can't tell you, I've never trained kicking so I have no personal experience. However I doubt it. Injuries in training are usually muscle pulls/tears and tendon damage as far as I'm aware.

Most of the time we wear pads, like long soft shin guards that soften everything. We did some shin kicking from time to time.

Traditionally Thai boxers will kick and elbow tree trunks to build up their shin bones. It hurts a little when you're starting out, but as long as your sensible nothing should break.

The thing with bones is like anything rigid, at some angles they're strong as concrete, at others... not so much.

Feb 8, 2009

fatherdog posted:

This is a little misleading. Extremely poor Thai camps (when necessary) use banana trees, which are more like a thick stem than an actual trunk; they're not like kicking solid wood. And the very first thing a camp buys when it gets some fighter purse money is generally a bag and pads.

I should probably have qualified it by saying that kicking trees of softer wood was their "traditional" method, and I have seen it done when I was in thailand. But yes, you're right, kicking a heavy bag or each other in pads will have the same overall effect.

Feb 8, 2009

Neurosis posted:

Cricket isn't popular in Holland, or if it is then they have the sorriest excuse for a national side imaginable.

They do have a side and yes they suck. Massively suck

Feb 8, 2009

The thing with fedor is the hive mind has a lot of love for guys who have the fight anyone, anywhere, anytime type philosophy, guys like Wandy, Coleman, Nogueira, to an extent BJ Penn.

They also seem to be in the business because they enjoy it or have to be there and they go out of their way to interact with fans, a combination of their love for the sport and their attitude has all lead to their losing at some point. With Fedor though it seems that he's disinterested in anything that doesn't advance his management or his bank balance, which is fine, objectively I'd probably do the same thing in his position but combine that attitude with his fans' bullshit and it's understandable some people just wish his fans would shut up and he'd go away.

If you're the best you fight the best and you WANT to fight the best, then you don't hide behind your management who're unsavoury at best, criminal at worst and fight in smaller, less competitive companies dodging the consensus number 1 promotion in the world.

Feb 8, 2009

The issue with the scoring is that the boxing system was used for a few reasons, there were judges in abundance familiar with it who could be used right away and both the rules and the judges gave the sport a much needed sense of authenticity.

I agree that it's time for something to change, not necessarily the 10 point must system, or a change in the rules, but perhaps better education for the judges, courses or something or the blooding of judges from other MMA rule systems into the new subset.

There's too much of a problem right now with the judges interpretations of aggression, octagon control and generally which fighter is dominating.

Feb 8, 2009

Lid posted:

The worst case would be Stun Gun v Karo. The third round was so terrible by both that online reports were jumping between rating it 10-10, 9-9 or 0-0. Karo got the nod, though his round 2 was very meh compared to Stun Gun's spectacular round 1. Of course this fight lead to the discovery of Karo's painkiller addiction so silver lining, but it was the clearest case of a draw due to a round of complete inactivity by both from exhaustion.

Stun gun's an interesting name for him since it's like he's been hit with one, 2 mins into any of the last two rounds.

Feb 8, 2009

I think in his early days Tito almost got into brawls with the dudes from the Lions den quite a few times, can't remember who he knocked out with a slam but when he flipped off the double birds Shamrock and co were loving livid and had to be restrained.

Feb 8, 2009

A Pale Horse posted:

Yeah coming out in professional sports is generally not done until after your career is over, and I think it would be a lot worse for MMA fighters just because there's so much man hugging and Jesus loving going on in the sport to begin with, not to mention the "average fan" demographic which is basically rednecks and meatheads, groups not really known for their accepting natures. I remember a rumor floating around a while back (I think Tito was the one who twittered it) about a well known fighter being gay but it was vague and there was no follow up so it could have all been bullshit or it could have been covered up not to ruin the guy's career.

I think it's pretty common for all sportsmen to hide their preference or even rather, to be "straight", I think it was Bloody Sundays (can't recall) the NFL book where one gay player who remained anonymous said he was sure there were many other players but they'd never come out from fear of retribution even in the form of violence and spoke pretty candidly about what it's like to be a gay player.

Feb 8, 2009

Five Cent Deposit posted:

Eh, I dunno. I used to work with a pro boxer who fought on some decent sized undercards, and based on what he told me and what I've read, I guess I thought journeymen - even guys that no fan in the world has heard of or cares about - typically did better than $5,000-$10,000 to show up. What seems different is that the UFC is, in my mind, a brand more than a string of events. The "brand" seems to invest in the personalities and characters on its roster, and in that sense seems to be run more like a "sports-entertainment" company (e.g. WWE.) Boxing is a notoriously disgusting business and as an admittedly very casual fan (not interested at all these last few years) it never seemed to me like the promoters or the exhibitors cared whether YOU cared who was fighting besides the main eventers - the entire event was based on one hyped fight that everyone cares about and a bunch of filler fights that no one has anything invested in. Undercard fights seem meant to be exciting, but not in a way where you're seeing the next rising star. Boxing is all about jobbers and journeymen and everyone's records are incredibly padded. In contrast, the UFC brand seems like it is more about building and maintaining interest in each individual fighter and it just doesn't seem like they are rewarded commensurately to me. The UFC seems to have a higher number of competitive fights where one dude makes 10 times as much as the other dude, i.e. a legitimate challenger (as opposed to a jobber) making $20,000 vs. the champ making $200,000. But again, my question isn't "why aren't they paid more?" it's "why are we told they are making less than they actually make?"

I know MMA in general and UFC specifically are sometimes shady (duh) but I hope they aren't as shady as the various boxing promoters out there... I just want to hear the thoughtfully reasoned explanation for the locker room bonuses. Especially since they aren't such closely guarded secrets.

Related: Do the fighters see a decent cut of the other revenue streams (e.g. action figures, games, etc.)?

Fighters money comes from a bunch of places


-Bonuses for winning the fight (normally a fighter will sign a three fight deal for something like 20,000/20,000 which is 20 on top of their first payout if they win.

-Night bonuses, stuff like Fight of the Night, Knockout of the Night, Submission of the Night and so fourth, usually this is $60,000.

-Locker Room bonuses, from some places I've heard this is equal at times with their take from the night, I know Shogun Rua when he lost to Machida was given a cheque for 250,000 which was the same as his money for the fight in the first place. Some guys would probably get an additional pay out for getting robbed in a decision or fighting their heart out at short notice. This is hard to say.

-Sponsorship on their pants, hats, shirts etc, this comes from all manner of places in varying amounts, Anderson Silva for exmaple gets either 250k or 500k (can't recall) for the print on his rear end.

-Seminars, people pay big money to hear a lot of these guys talk about their approach to fighting and what not, they also have training sessions for some guys.

-Coaching, a lot of beginners will teach kids and teenagers how to throw a proper punch or sink in a good choke and having the "learn from a cage fighter" catch line helps with the profit margin.

They can also sell books as well; Liddell, Machida, Penn, Couture among others made some coin from selling books and DVDs of their techniques or life story.

It might not seem like much for a guy to make 16k on paper from winning a bout on the PPV but if he fights 3 times a year like a lot of guys do then that's 48k alone in a year, add in a FOTN bonus and some money from sponsors and it's not a bad living.

If you think these guys are making just a base wage from their published payouts you're way off.

Feb 8, 2009

I can't answer that I know some agents take in the vicinity of 4%, some more some probably less by the same token though, being trained by Freddie Roach and being managed by someone like Ed Soares probably means you're going to be making more and more money as time goes on.

Feb 8, 2009

Ogantai posted:

Australian cards are live, not tape delayed.

Yeah, because of the time difference a 1pm show out here starts the same time as they do in the US. Which works out pretty well.

Feb 8, 2009

Bubba Smith posted:

Well drat everyone already covered everything else before I hit reply, but to further add: When fighters miss weight by more than a pound you are given two hours to drop the excess weight and step on the scales again. If you are still over the weight limit you are fined 20% of your purse and it either goes to the opponent or to the athletic commission.

So just because a fighter misses weight the first time it does not mean they are automatically fined.

The "free pound" is also because of possible discrepancy in the accuracy of the scales.

In Rumble Johnson's case as well, when he failed to make weight by like 6 pounds his bonus was held by the UFC.

Dana White seems to have a pretty strict policy on making weight and he's often been heard telling fighters to move up if they can't make the weight.

Feb 8, 2009

Jesus, that's a huge loving cut to try to make on TUF>

Feb 8, 2009

Kendal isn't necessarily disliked he's just easy to poke fun at, he's got decent subs and his lankyness makes for some fun match ups, couple that with his incredibad chin and you're guaranteed a decent watch. I don't think anyone hates him per se.

Feb 8, 2009

Either the rules or it was OK because they used BJJ.

Feb 8, 2009

henkman posted:

He a threw tiny japanese ref to the side like he was Brett Rogers. That's not something the World's Nicest Man Would do
I think you are this tiny japanese ref.

Feb 8, 2009

Street Horrrsing posted:

Alright, an actual combat sports question.

Say you're Dan Hardy training for GSP.

He's going to wrestle the poo poo out you, if he gets on top of you, that round is essentially over.

Your striking isn't sharp enough to be competitive, and you don't have that one-shot KO power to even make it a hail mary option.

Why wouldn't you just train kneeing people in the face everytime they shoot a double? Just stink up the joint circling backwards, and the second you see his shoulders drop, throw the knee.

Isn't this essentially the strategy employed in the Aoki/Anime match?

I tend to agree, I would also train the gently caress out of guillotines or any sub you can hopefully snatch off a takedown.

Feb 8, 2009

Yeah I kind of like hug trips. They're not exactly unsuccessful in MMA.

Feb 8, 2009

Maybe I'm wrong but body lock takedowns seem pretty under-used, Forrest loveses them, so does Machida but I can't think of too man other fighters who use them prevalently, Jones just tosses bitches to the side.

Feb 8, 2009

Snowman_McK posted:

There was a clip I saw recently of Dana White yelling about how Steve Mazagatti is a terrible ref, shouldn't be watching fights, etc. What was the event that provoked that? Is there some consensus on which refs are good and bad?

I think it's a case of events plural, he occasionally stops fights early and I think stopped a fight declaring it a sub when one fighter didn't tap or quit. He might have been responsible for that really awkward moment in the drago fight ages ago too.

Either way he's not inherently terrible just quick to stop fights.

Feb 8, 2009

Snowman_McK posted:

My friend told me Mike Pyle did an amazing reversal from side control in a fight recently, but I haven't been able to find it. Any idea what he was referring to?

Maybe the Hathaway fight because IIRC he had him in a wierd crucifix position at one point, he also fought Almeida in his last fight but from memory Almeida struggled to even get it to the ground let alone passing to side control.

Feb 8, 2009

Bundt Cake posted:

in case no one actually helps you, you can read this

sambo and taekwondo guys only really make it in mma if they're athletic and can shore up their other skills tremendously. No one based in TKD has ever done poo poo, and no one really uses a TKD style in any meaningful sense. The closest it comes is some guy throws a kick Joe Rogan recognizes from his TKD days and calls it a TKD name. The main guys who would be exceptions to the rule for Sambo are Fedor and Oleg Taktarov. Fedor's 'sambo' backround is actually combat sambo which is basically mma with restricted rules and fighters who suck. Both guys had a ton of physical attributes that helped them succeed more than their sambo skills. Oleg got lay n prayed by Tank loving Abbott for over ten minutes. Oleg also initiated the much repeated line of poo poo that sambo guys are really dangerous with leglocks in MMA. They can be but it's far from something to take for granted.

BJJ guys and wrestlers both want to be on top. But wrestling is a lot more focused on takedowns and staying on your feet in the clinch, etc. than BJJ is. Generally speaking, wrestlers are better at takedowns and takedown defense than anyone else. BJJ matches don't end if you end up off your feet or with your shoulders to the mat, in fact in a lot of competitions takedowns are scored relatively evenly with sweeps and guard passing, and subsequently BJJ guys have to know all kinds of different poo poo and have a lot more experience working off their backs, so it's a trade off. As a rule of thumb wrestlers hate being on their backs. But they're still big strong grapplers so a lot of them are good at standing back up. BJJ guys can be really good at standing up, too, and sometimes if a wrestler isn't well schooled in BJJ, a guy with precise technique and grappling know-how can get up from underneath a bigger, stronger guy. I'm thinking of Jones/Bonnar, where Snowball King blows Bonnar off his feet over and over, but Bonnar has impeccable instincts on the ground and gets back to his feet very quickly.

Muay Thai is a style of kickboxing with a ton of variation within it. There's guys like Pedro Rizzo who always fight like there is no time limit, and then there are guys from like Cordiero's crew or Golden Glory who come out swinging. Basically there's a lot of elbows, knees, and kicks, and they fight in the clinch. Google up thai plumb and you'll see probably the most unique part of the style, which I don't want to try and explain with more ugly words. It's a real good style to base your mma fighting on either way, since staying back and throwing meaningful shots in a Pedro Rizzo style is conducive to incorporating takedown defense into ones game, and being really aggressive also has it's own advantages, like the chance to take someone out early, and getting finishes just by overwhelming guys with less striking experience or skill. The only thing I've ever noticed really as a con to muay thai dudes is that sometimes guys with more concentrated focus on their boxing
can take advantage of a muay thai guy's guard and head movement, since it's geared to block elbows and kicks as much as it is punches, and there's a bit of a trade off. There really aren't that many guys with the boxing talent to pull it off, but if you watch Lil Nogueira v. Cane you'll see that exact thing. ANother thing worth noting here is that the boxing guys can have problems with the more kickboxing oriented guys, too. Again I'm thinking of Lil Nog, when get got KO'd by like the most basic kickboxing combo of all time against Sokodjou.

To expand on the Muay Thai thing, in traditional thai rules punches aren't counted, so in order to score you must hit with kicks, knees or elbows. In recent times, partly due to the rise of MMA more traditional boxing is being incorporated in MT training programs and the traditional guard has been somewhat abandoned in favour of a different hand position to protect from punching and brawling exchanges.

Europeans in particular the dutch have a less traditional approach that uses more boxing and the newer kind of guard in their kick boxing. For an example of the differences check out Amir Sadollah's fight with Phil Baroni and then watch some traditional MT on youtube. The same basic style but very different in the way it's used depending on where and when.

Pretty much now days you'll see fighters doing three core things, Striking almost always MT and traditional Boxing, wrestling and BJJ for fighting off their back. Naturally some who've grown up doing one of the three will be better at it and base their game around that. Some fighters don't like adopting newer things or stay in their base like Machida in Shotokan and BJ Penn who rarely throws a kick or looks to wrestle. Their reasons are a whole other kettle of fish though.

Try to think of styles i.e. Rogan saying "he's a great MT practitioner" or other sperg out comment less of them being a purist and more of them using that style in an MMA context which can be very different from the pure art like the MT example above.

Feb 8, 2009

Tezcatlipoca posted:

This isn't true. Punches are counted they just aren't worth as much as kicks.

Yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about since when I was loving in thailand and went to Patong stadium that's exactly what was said by the ring announcer, that's exactly what my friends who train MT told me and that's exactly what I was told when training there.

Feb 8, 2009

Coitus_Interruptus posted:


Well I guess, its possible they might do things different in Thailand...

Welp. I understand that there are a metric rear end-ton of promotions with varying rules and scoring criteria but I have never heard of a single Muay Thai event where punches didn't count at all. Its generally understood that they aren't scored as favorably as kicks, elbows, and knees but saying they don't count at all is very wrong. I haven't been to Thailand, and I've never been to Patong Stadium, and I can't find their laws posted online, I guess I can't say with certainty that punches do indeed count at Patong. What I can say is that this is a general thread, for general answers to general questions, and since its generally accepted in most of the Muay Thai world that punches do infact, count, I guess we can choose to disregard you, your friends, the gym the trained at, and the stadium you went to as outliers and not reflective of Muay Thai in general.

Keep in mind that I did say "traditional" and I may be wrong in other promotions, but it was clearly said and I am repeating verbatim "punches do not score points".

Feb 8, 2009

I didn't go to an exhibition I went to a card of about 6 fights, I've still got the flyer and I've got stamps in my passport I'm happy to take photos of if you think I'm full of poo poo. I can even tell you the number of the seat I sat in.

I don't really want to continue arguing over this anyway. I'm happy to disagree with you and leave it at that.

On an unrelated note, does anyone have a link to that video that was crapping around a while ago of Dana White with Rashad Evans wife after he got knocked out by Machida where she's hysterical and he has to take the belt into the ring.

Feb 8, 2009

kimbo305 posted:

In Boston, there's sizeable Khmer and Lao populations. Some gyms are really jingoistic about teaching pure Muay Lao and Pradal Serey, not Muay Thai. Lot of history between those countries, obviously.
One of my coaches went to train with the head coach at some Muay Lao gym, and was getting these looks of death for wearing shorts with the Muay Thai script on them. He was about to get thrown out when the head coach cooled everyone down. I'm sure you could confirm the same sentiment if you ventured to the comments section of that video.

But yeah, they pretty much are all the same art.

If anyone wants to see these types of rivalries there's a series of DVDs called Muay Thai: The Beginning featuring some brutal fights between from memory Burmese fighters and Thai boxers.

There's also some old tale can't remember the name of it but supposedly a thai boxer was captured and killed or defeated a bunch of burmese guys in a tournament and rode off into the sunset in a bad rear end way with wives after he won his freedom.

edit: found it.

There's some interesting history to be read, some other super human martial arts reading for those interested (founder of kyokushin) who apparently used to kill bulls with his bare hands after he ran out of what he considered fair human opponents.

A while back I was going to start an origins of martial arts thread might have to put some work into that.


Feb 8, 2009

Sue Denim posted:

How common are concussions in MMA?

Surprisingly you don't see a lot of suspensions for concussions. Obviously taking punches to the face for a career isn't what you'd call conducive to long term brain health that being said however, due to the prevalence of kickboxing, wrestling and BJJ you're less likely to end up with as much damage being done to your brain when compared to boxing.

The other thing to keep in mind too is that boxing gloves are apparently worse than 4oz ones when it comes to brain damage. The argument is that the added weight to the glove combined with the extra distribution of the entirety of the force of the punch means that a fighter can take more overall damage over the course of a fight using gloves than fighting bare knuckled or with 4oz gloves while feeling less of the negative effects associated with the smaller gloves ie. broken bones, swelling etc.

EDIT: The above on the glove thing is something that has been disputed by some in both sports. I'm no doctor so I don't really know how true it is, consider it food for thought.

MMA is still pretty young and even the guys we consider pioneers are only just reaching the ages of 45-50ish now so there's no real long term case study you can do on what kind of impact a life of MMA fighting has on your brain when you get older.

Consider too that most boxers for example will have a lot of amatuer fights before turning pro.

Sugar shane Mosely for example had something like 99 fights as an amatuer and over 150 in his entire career. Compare that to Anderson silva who at 3 years younger has 34 fights, probably a few more amateur ones thrown in that I can't find a source of.

That's a big difference in the mathematical number of impacts his head has suffered.

MMA is in no way good for your brain, but I'd argue in a big way it's a lot less dangerous than boxing, or american football for that matter.

I know you didn't ask for a comparison but boxing is known for producing old guys who end up punchy and near invalid from their brain injuries, in MMA there's simply not a long term study because of the age of the sport to quantify the data of brain injuries but by in large there seems to be almost no medical suspensions due to suspected concussions.

BlindSite fucked around with this message at 00:02 on May 11, 2011

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