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Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Yuriy posted:

The rule just says that


Is a foul.
If the hand is down, they're grounded and stomping it would be a foul.

Jesus Christ, I've wondered why I've never seen that. That is truly the worst, man I hate that rule. Now I fantasize about a guy putting his hand on the mat, and the other fighter kicking him on the straightened elbow, snapping the arm. That'd learn em.

LobsterMobster posted:

But you could axe kick it, right? Didn't GSP axe kick some dude's body while he was on his back?

He did, against Mayem Miller. It didn't do much but looked cool as gently caress.

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Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Halloween Jack posted:

That sounds to me more like they don't get sloppy with their defense because they're tired. (Obviously that doesn't apply to stuff like Hunt surviving a cinematic boot to the head.) After all, most deaths in boxing happen after 8+ round fights, not hellacious first-round knockouts.

There are several fighters on that list that have basically zero defense and spend the whole fight getting punched in the head, and still don't gas.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Fruits of the sea posted:

On that note, why do fighters resort to standing guillotine chokes so often when the success rate is so low? It looks like a very tiring submission, and half the time the fighter attempting the choke ends up on his back, leaving them in a lovely position when their opponent's head inevitably pops out.

Lots of people have already replied with correct answers, but it also serves to dissuade your opponent from continuing the takedown. If you manage to put your head into a standing guillotine and its actually done well, going to the ground is the last thing you want.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



A few pages ago there was a question and several answers about why elbows aren't used more often. This sort of analysis is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to read and post about, so here are my thoughts. I use some judo terms here: uke is the person performing the technique, tori is the partner.

Elbows are chronically under-used.

Difficulties in training have already been mentioned. Elbows gently caress you up, and its really hard to use them in sparring without causing real damage.

They are also not so common a technique; finding legit Muay Thai guys who are really experienced in them isn't nearly as easy as finding boxing instruction.


Anyway, so its a bit hard to train. Here are areas where I think elbows should be used more:

-The clinch.
They're used all the time here, but it could be more. I think there are too many haymaker attempts. That Neer fight that was posted showed that short, non-horizontal elbows can be ultra effective. Lots of room to grow here.

-Hand fighting
Perfect for Jones, but other fighters can use it as well

(gif isn't a good example since where was no hand fighting here, but it was cool and handfighting set up several elbows in the fight, use your imagination)

-Clinch breaks.
This could almost be a sport in itself, and the whole notion is greatly under-used. Elbows are but one technique that can be really useful as a surprise, short-range blow.

-In-fighting
If you're close enough to throw an uppercut or short hook, you're probably in elbow range as well. Several people mentioned how Jones's success with elbows is due to his huge reach. No arguments here. But that doesn't mean that only long-armed guys should throw them. They should be part of the arsenal used by short guys to fight on the inside and stifle long-range attacks. Boxers have done this for ages -illegally- by throwing a punch and "missing" only to connect with an elbow instead. This is a great fakeout and would work well with MMA.

-Grappling.
Travis Brown showed there are completely new and hilarious ways to use elbows. This applies both standing and on the ground. There's a whole world of elbows to use here, from almost every position.

-Elbows, not to the face.
Why not elbow to the guts, or thigh, or solar plexus? I've seen some interesting ones to the shoulder joint, and Pride actually had more body-elbows than I see in the UFC.

-Limb destruction
Block a punch with the tip of your elbow. Escrima has it, and apparently so does boxing. I've never seen this done in real life, and wonder if its really possible.

So, basically, use elbows everywhere.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Dangersim posted:

Blocking punches with elbows is very much a part of boxing and is very effective and painful. Usually you use them to block body shots.

Would this not be a lot easier to do when blocking huge boxing gloves? Could it work in MMA?

I see people punch elbows and forearms all the time, though it never looks intended to hurt.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



CommonShore posted:

You have uke and tori backwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tori_%28martial_arts%29

Nik Dennis is also a good example of creative standing elbows.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



I don't view this thread very often.

Bluedeanie posted:

I understand we don't see more knees to the body from side control because it gives the guy on bottom space and opportunity to escape or scramble to a better position, but we don't we see more elbows during triangle attempts? Is it because it's just that harrowing to throw a short power strike so close to your balls?

I think strikes from both these positions are hugely underused, though especially side control. If the guy on top side control throws strikes instead of maintaining his position, yes, he gives additional room for his opponent to escape. However this is true from pretty well every grappling position, and has the counter point that throwing strikes forces the guy on bottom to either move or block in reaction. Knees from side were far more common in PRIDE and there were plenty of cases where it didn't at all help guys get up, because they were too worried about not getting their ribs caved in (though of course in PRIDE they also had to defend their heads).

Elbows from triangles are similar. Most submission training does not involve strikes. So fighters have probably drilled a triangle thousands of times and locked on in during rolling tens or hundreds of times, but perhaps never with strikes being used. Changing your rythem like that for a fight is not easy to do, but it definitely has its uses.



EvanSchenck posted:

hahaha. It's going to turn out that Cejudo was a pump-and-dump scam all along. Sonnen talking him up, getting Dana to sign him, then he shorted all his stock in Cejudo right before the close of business today. Get ready for Sonnen's second conviction.

Anyway in that interview Sonnen talks a little about why he thinks Greco is better for MMA, and he says maybe it's because the upright posture is better for striking. That might be part of it, but I would go more specific and say that the clinch is very important and guys with good Greco tend to be very strong there. People tend to get a lot of credit for their striking and for their wrestling or ground work, and the clinch doesn't get that attention because it's like an intermediate position. But a lot of fights are won and lost right there. You can look at Ronda, Randy, Jon Jones. You can even go all the way back to Jack Johnson, really. Standing hugs: very important.

Yeah. For quite a while Rogan was saying how he thought Greco Roman was the best base for MMA, because of the standing clinch. I think he came to this opinion some time after Randy Couture fought the young killing machine of Vitor Belfort and defeated him utterly by holding the back of Vitor's neck with one hand. Judo has a lot of potential here too, because it also uses an upright stance with clinching and takedowns, though the current rule set of olympic Judo isn't very conducive to MMA training, which I hate.


fatherdog posted:

Foreman/Frazier is also notable because, although there are obviously many times in history where an undisputed, undefeated champion gets defeated, there aren't all that many where they get absolutely loving murdered.

How many times has this happened in MMA? All I can think of is the 'Shad face.

david carmichael posted:

we should do some kind of group watch of a bunch of that trio's fights sometime. really compelling stuff on a lot of levels.

Yes! Yes. I watched... Ali-Fraizer, I think, and was shocked at how good the one-man commentary was. For one thing, he described what was going on instead of just filling air with stupid trivia. For a second, he knew what the gently caress he was watching. As Fraizer was hitting Ali against the ropes, commentator was saying "these punches are not hurting Ali, no damage being done here, no problem at all- ooh big punch from Ali!". This poo poo was happening faster than my unaccustomed eyes could follow, so it was actually incredibly useful, unlike most commentary.

fake edit: it was rope a dope, so I assume it was Ali-Foreman, not Fraizer. Also, I'm aware that Ali was probably wasn't better off after taking those punches that "didn't do damage", but its true that they didn't do nearly as much as it seemed like they should.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Yeah, that is pretty bad.

As an amateur bout, with people making their debuts, you've got to watch them very carefully. Wouldn't amateur bouts normally require headgear? I thought this is how boxing does it.

The ref not checking on him between rounds was pretty bad. I think you should always do a cursory check, especially to the guy that was getting punched more and was on unsteady legs, or if he looks especially fatigued/hurt on his stool. I think to MMA, and Big John at least always checks each corner, and takes a careful look if the fighter looks at all wobbly.

The doc, spending his time checking his phone and being a generally lazy dick was gross. Others involved were inattentive or irresponsible(like the cornerman, who was pushing his fighter way too hard), but the doctor was actively ignoring his duties.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Yuriy posted:

The thing that's a little scary is that I've seen guys way more hosed up looking during and after a fight, and they ended up "fine"-ish

What makes someone like TJ Grant who got super super hosed up by concussions, or that dead dude different? Like does this poo poo just kinda happen?

There is a small chance of it "just happening". Perhaps this fellow was somehow pre-disposed to not being able to take headshots. Perhaps he was injured coming into the fight (which should have been spotted of course). There should have been some investigation into his state before he stepped into the ring, I wish the video had delved into that.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Jesus, he really got a concussion, from his trainer, at the weigh in before the fight? That is hosed.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Dangersim posted:

It seems Duke Roufous is an rear end in a top hat and doesn't care about people's health, but a professional fighter accidentally getting caught with a stiff jab during a demonstration is not shocking or newsworthy.

But to get a concussion from it? If that is indeed what happened.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Agreed posted:

Yeah, even in straightforward grappling you have to destabilize your opponent somehow to execute your finishing move. Everything leading up to the moment of the submission is where you win the fight, really. Finding those moments and making them count is beautiful and fuckin' really hard too.

Love watching old Pancrase matches that weren't works (hey there are a bunch ok) and seeing the really active, frantic scrambling of the Shoot wrestling circuit guys - none of them really had much of a game on their back, but rather than develop one, they basically just got amazingly good at applying constant, wicked pressure from the top and moving around like crazy so they won't end up there. Modern grapplers are way, way more complete, and that was a very risky fighting style, but it was fun to watch.

Pancrase started as being largely worked, but became (as far as I know) as legit as other MMA orgs as time went on.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



02-6611-0142-1 posted:

Genki Sudo vs Butterbean was pretty loving good.

There were jumping kicks, I can confirm this.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Foul Fowl posted:

diego lost to myles jury because he ate a bad quail egg

gently caress that was funny.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Bader does indeed suck.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Bundt Cake posted:

Plus he couldnt strike like at all

Except against Vitor.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



manyak posted:

- no reason to get UFC/MMA gloves unless youre grappling and need to articulate your fingers, get boxing gloves
- theres no difference between womens and mens gloves as long as they fit her
- the point of gloves is to protect your hands, the size of the gloves depends on how much padding you need for how hard youre hitting/what youre hitting. hitting focus mitts you barely even need gloves, you arent gonna break your hand on a focus mitt (you need handwraps though which are more important than gloves), then hitting the bag you need slightly bigger bag gloves, sparring you need bigger sparring gloves etc

- you should try out some free trial classes or something at a boxing gym or kickboxing place to give yourself some direction, its hard to learn solely from instructional vids with 0 experience. not just in terms of "learning how to actually fight" but without supervision and correction youll probably follow the path of least resistance and ingrain lazy habits which will make you a) not have as good of a workout and b) suck at fighting

Yeah. An introductory class (which should be free, even if a per-class price is listed just ask the instructor and they'll probably let you try one for free) can show you a lot.

There really is a great deal that goes into throwing even a basic punch. Going to even one class can help show you how little you know about a seemingly basic thing, and might better get you in a mindset to really start from square one.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Thanks Greg Jackson.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



I've concentrated on watching striking exchanges over the past couple years, and have improved a lot. Partially from training, but also from watching differently.

It doesn't really help for live viewing, but I really enjoy watching fights or exchanges in super-slow motion. Feints, telegraphed strikes, reaction times and the like become way more clear at slow speed. Watching them at slow speed to understand them, then at higher speed to get your eye used to it can be handy.

To find what strikes land I've found looking at the heads is often good. I can't always see if a punch lands, but seeing the head jerk back (or suddenly halt when ducking or moving) can indicate how powerful a blow is.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



kimbo305 posted:

You don't have to be watching the two fighters the same way to be objective. If one guy is pressing the action, and the other is retreating and defending, you don't need to be looking at both's offensive output the whole time. You can pick roles that the fighters' gameplans are molding them into during the fight, and gauge the actions taken in the context of those roles. That's a bit oversimplified.

As a start, watch the interaction of the feet and their motion over the cage / ring.
Are both fighters stepping forward and backward equally?
Is one fighter continually moving forward?
When one fighter goes forward, does he step with both feet, or does he lunge with only his front foot? How does he reset? Do his feints show the same footwork as his real strikes?
How does his opponent react? Does he step straight back? Always off to one side? Does he match distance in his retreat, or maybe goes back half a step and throws a counter?

By looking at the footwork, you can judge how each fighter is trying to dictate the range and pace of the fight to their own terms. You can also see to what degree they are succeeding with their gameplan.

A counterfighter like Machida will never stop moving. He might not move frequently or spastically, but he will always move where he wants to. He avoids getting penned up on the cage and moves aggressively away from anticipated long engagements, avoiding brawls.

Someone like Leben continually half steps toward his opponent, turning whenever his opponent moves offline. Once they're in range, a steady stream of strikes come out. Repeat until one or the other party has been stopped.

Shogun (just one more example) likes to come right into his pocket range and go into that Muay Thai guard with narrow stance, looking to land long punches and kicks. He can either exchange one strike at a time or brawl or clinch. He's not that mobile on his feet once in range, though some of his kick combinations can bring him forward. He has very limited footwork for moving back, usually just shelling up and stepping straight back slowly, which is where a lot of guys nab the takedown on him.

This is a good post, I'll look more at footwork in that way.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



The first show was a surprise success. It was something people really wanted to watch, and ran into trouble from regulators, as other posters have mentioned.

That it grew into a legit sport though, that is known in several countries with big name athletes sponsored by bud light and burger king and reebok is pretty mind blowing though.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Kuno posted:

This is loving ancient history but I've been watching the old UFCs and Don Frye won the Ultimate Ultimate and was supposed to fight for the super title in 12 but it was Coleman instead and I didn't hear it explained why on the broadcast. Can anyone remember why that was? Did he not want to fight Severn?

Vitor Belfort just showed up too, pretty cool that a guy from that far back is still fighting now. He totally ran through everyone in the tournament too. After awhile watching these old ones in a row you sort of forget how comparatively garbage these guys were until you see a modern fight and then go... oh, right the dudes fighting now are really insanely loving good at fighting. I'm 12 UFCs in and I don't think I've seen even a single attempt at a proper headkick, even by the dudes billing themselves as 4th degree blackbelts in Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Savate who seem mostly to just windmill at people before getting taken down.

Where I'm at now it seems like wrestlers have pretty much taken over and no one seems to have any loving clue how to deal with them.

Also young Bruce Buffer kind of sucks but is a million times better than the Goins dude he replaced, I think I could probably have done a better job of announcing than him.

Don't worry that head kick is coming. When you least expect it too.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



CommonShore posted:

Campbell MacLaren revealed on twitter that the production team just invented PIT FIGHTING because they wanted something that sounded slightly more formal than DRUNK GUY FROM THE BEACH.

Tank Abbot was also the first fighter to wear two gloves in the UFC.

I've read this before but it isn't true, its some dude from UFC 4 I think. I'll go watch it and find out.

e: Melton Bowen


Count Roland fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jul 9, 2015

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Speaking of footwork, I absolutely love this gif:

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



EmmyOk posted:

Well you don't want to be as cold as before your warm-up I mean. Those fights sound insane at that heat though

You warm up to loosen up your muscles and joints, and probably more technical physiological reasons. Cooling down too much can lead to tightening up, as well as noticing your injuries more.

But there's no way to do this during the 1 minute you have between rounds. Maybe jumping in an ice bath for 1 minute? Maybe? Try going for a 10 minute jog, and try cooling down for 1 minute and see how far it gets you.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Stopping a sub as a 3rd party is really difficult.

Actually, thinking about it, there's probably a whole art's worth of techniques just in that. How do you lock uke, to prevent him from further cranking a sub on tori? It would be something very specific, like the moves themselves.

I wish the refs could just slap or punch the offending fighter in the face, that would get their attention.

edit: grammar

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



CommonShore posted:

You have uke and tori backward

Ugh, thought I might. I learned it backwards and have not been able to shake it.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



DumbWhiteGuy posted:

It's probably getting dated by now, but Jason MacDonald vs Maia at UFC 87 was my gold standard for a long time.

Same, I was going to mention this one. MacDonald is long forgotten now but he was quite entertaining when he first entered the UFC.

Maia vs Sonnen for a hilarious grappling smack-down.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



fatherdog posted:

The best part of that match was when Arlovski kicked him in the head on the ground. Herb Dean tried to stand them up and warn Arlovski and PDP categorically refused, going so far as to claim he hadn't actually been kicked, just so he could stay on the ground. Then Arlovski knocked him stupid with a punch from his back and pounded him out while hanging onto the fence.

I'd forgotten about that, that was loving hilarious.

The replay showed them talking with the ref, all the while AA had his right hand cocked way back. As soon as Dean said go AA just slugged him.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Memento posted:

That dude who is new to posting here about MMA should have to watch Royce Gracie vs. Kazushi Sakuraba like I had to. Drinking your weight in scotch and writing up 3300 words about it is optional but preferred.

I thought that fight was hilarious and Important for the history of the sport. I watched it with my friend on youtube, where is was cut into separate videos for each round. We didn't know beforehand how many rounds it would be, so imagine our surprise when the drat thing just kept on going.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Ditch posted:

Since I didn't start watching UFC regularly until mid-2012, I missed the GSP/Hughes/Penn era at welterweight.

1. I haven't seen much of prime Penn. Was he good enough to be competitive today at lightweight in his prime, or was it more a function of shallower divisions?

2. Am I wrong in thinking that Hughes would be small for 170 by today's standards? He's pretty thick but not Lombard/Hendricks thick.

Penn was The Prodigy, its hard to live up to a name like that but he did. He has his ups and downs for sure, but its worth watching his career from the start. Some of the stuff he does is hilarious. Like going up in wieght to take on the super dominant Hughes, and subbing him easily. Or calling off his own fight against Pulver 2. Or his fight with Diego Sanchez.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



1st AD posted:

He also wanted to quit in the Alves fight after tearing his groin and Greg Jacksons response was real funny.

"I don't care George. Hit him with your groin!"

Greg Jackson has a way of psychologically managing fighters and all their weirdness and insecurities.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



manyak posted:

wasnt that because of an eyepoke?

Plus the wiffed upercut mentioned. He was half blind and couldn't breathe, it was also the first time he'd taken that sort of damage in a fight.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Gadamer posted:

With how MMA evolves, in 10 years will we think of Rousey as best for her time but not in 2025, similar to how fans feel about Royce?

Similar but different.

To me it highlights the different evolutionary path that WMMA will take compared to men. Yes we already know what works, but given this knowledge its surprising that basically a pure judoka ends up kicking everyone's rear end. Future developments won't necessarily follow the logic of the men's side either. Women train different sports than men, and their bodies are different as well. And since the men's sport is still evolving at a breakneck pace, the future of the women's is pretty wide open.

I think unlike with Royce, women aren't running out to learn judo in order to get better at MMA. Women are however paying very close attention to Honda in every way, and she'll clearly be a role model for some time.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



1st AD posted:

I think Ronda will retire before 30 so we may never see her lose a fight.

I'm rooting for her to pull this off.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



LordPants posted:

This question is based upon my observation and because I don't watch hours and hours of MMA I may be completely wrong, but:

What happened to the triangle from the bottom? Are people just clued in enough that they don't let that happen any more?

If my premise is wrong and it is "it was never used much, you're missremembering" I apologise.

Triangles used to be more common, but not to a huge degree.

Here are some charts that break down subs by year, from 2013.

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/new...isplayed-440869

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Great post there mewse, would love to see more like that.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Wild Horses posted:

aldo ate a huge one from mendes, pretty crazy stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceg9qaBBBrg
nice to see conor just spectating too

Speaking of uppercuts:

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



proof of concept posted:

Here's the one of him vs Shungo Oyama at Pride 25 where Dan sets up a takedown by using the BRH to turn his opponent into a human bobblehead doll:



This ladies and gentlemen is how you fight.

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Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



I second Jack Slack. He taught me a great deal.

Other options:

1) Take a couple striking classes, boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, these would all work. It will open your eyes.

2) Find a good fight with a lot of dynamic striking. Now watch it, repeatedly, in slow motion. If you can't see exactly if/how every individual punch landed, you need to watch it more.

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