Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Hockles posted:

Can somebody explain all the different positions of grappling on the ground? I get confused when they are called out in a match.
The first position in BJJ is called the guard.



This is usually referred to as "top guard" or "bottom guard" for the guy on the top and the guy on the bottom respectively. This is considered a neutral position BJJ but isn't neutral in MMA because the guy on top can punch the guy on bottom. Generally speaking, the fighters want to do a few things here. The guy on bottom either wants to work his way back to his feet, or he wants to do what's called a "sweep". A sweep is when the position is reversed so that the guy on bottom ends up on top. The guy on the bottom can also submit his opponent from this position, but that is usually hard to do. The guy on top wants to "pass the guard", which means to move to a position that is better for the top guy. This brings us to the next position.



This is the half-guard. In the half the top fighter now has a better advantage. He is harder to submit and harder to sweep. He has almost passed the guard by working one leg free. He can also usually do more damage with punches because the guy on bottom has less control.



This is side control. The top fighter has now completely passed the guard. This is bad for the guy on bottom, he really wants to escape or return to guard. The guy on top can do a lot of damage from here, see GSP v. Serra II. The top guy can also hit some submissions from here. The guy on the bottom also has to be very careful to not let his opponent swing one leg over, which brings us to the next position.



This is mount. The top fighter can now throw down punches with a lot more intensity without worrying about getting caught in a submission. The fighter on the bottom is in huge trouble, a lot of fights end here. The fighter on top may also have opportunities for submissions.



Finally there is back control. One fighter is on the back of the other. See how the fighter on the back has his legs wrapped around his opponent? This prevents the fighter in front from turning into his opponent. These are called "hooks" and you'll often hear the announcers talking about someone as saying "he's taken the back, one hook is in, he's got the other one in!" That's because having the hooks in makes it much harder to escape back control. From here the fighter in front is very vulnerable to a submission called the "rear naked choke" or the "RNC" or sometimes the "mata leon".

Those are the most common positions. There are 1,001 shades within these, and there are a couple positions that I'm not covering here (north and south, knee on belly) because those are usually transitory positions.

Now let's look at the more common submissions. There are lots more than what I'm covering here. I'll also talk about the positions where these submissions are usually used, but a lot of them can be hit from all sorts of positions.

Armbar



This is one of the most common submissions. The arm is extended straight out, and the goal of the submitter is to get his hips as close to his opponent's shoulder as possible. From there he is able to use the leverage of his hips to hyper extend the arm. This can be hit from all kinds of positions but is most commonly done from guard (below) and mount (above).

Triangle



This is one of the most common chokes in MMA. It is usually performed from guard. It works by trapping an arm inside the guard. One leg is forced against the chokee's neck, the other forces the trapped arm to apply pressure to the opposite side of the neck. This, like almost every choke in MMA, is a blood choke. That means the goal is to cut off bloodflow through the neck to the brain. This is much, much faster than a choke on the airway and will put people out in about 15 to 30 seconds most of the time, sometimes faster. Generally people will tap out before they go out. Googling around looking for a picture for this submission lead me to this blog, where you can go to see the triangle in action.

Guillotine



This is the one exception to the blood chokes rule. The guillotine can be done as both. This one is pretty simple. The aggressor catches the other person's head by wrapping their arm around their neck from above, then cranks on it. This is usually finished by "pulling guard", which means to jump up and wrap the legs around the person getting choked. This lets the choker get a lot more force on his cranking. This can work because it cuts off bloodflow, or because it cuts off airflow, or simply as a neck crank. This also fails quite often where people slip out. The guillotine is most commonly done from none of the positions above, but instead from when someone tries to take down their opponent and gets their neck grabbed for their trouble.

Rear Naked Choke



Wrap one arm around their neck, with their throat centered on the elbow. Grab your own bicep on the opposite arm with the choking arm. Put the non choking arm on the back of their head. Win. This is done from the back position, and it is how most fights are won from that position. Done correctly, it is very very effective. For an idea of how little power this takes, see this video.

Kimura (and its cousin, the Americana)



This is generally done from side control, but it can be done from mount and possibly from the guard. Try this. Take your arm and raise it so that your upper arm is parallel to your shoulders. Raise your forearm and hand so that your elbow has a 90 degree turn. Like this __| Where the two lines are your shoulder and upper arm, then the line pointing up is your forearm. Now, keeping the upper arm and shoulder in line with each other, try to move your hand backwards. Notice how fast you run out of range of motion? If you try to move it further, you can feel your shoulder and upper arm lock up. Keep moving and it gets painful. Now imagine there's some giant sweaty dude on top of you. He has locked your arm in place and has his arm under yours to raise it from the mat, while cranking your upper arm in the direction it doesn't want to go. This has a bunch of names depending on which direction the upper arm is pointing and which martial art you come from - keylock, americana, chicken wing, figure four, ude-garami or double wristlock.

There's a cool story as to how it came to be called the Kimura in BJJ.

Masahiko Kimura posted:

"20,000 people came to see the bout including President of Brazil. Helio was 180cm and 80 kg. When I entered the stadium, I found a coffin. I asked what it was. I was told, "This is for Kimura. Helio brought this in." It was so funny that I almost burst into laughter. As I approached the ring, raw eggs were thrown at me. The gong rang. Helio grabbed me in both lapels, and attacked me with O-soto-gari and Kouchi-gari. But they did not move me at all. Now it's my turn. I blew him away up in the air by O-uchi-gari, Harai-goshi, Uchimata, Ippon-seoi. At about 10 minute mark, I threw him by O-soto-gari. I intended to cause a concussion. But since the mat was so soft that it did not have much impact on him. While continuing to throw him, I was thinking of a finishing method. I threw him by O-soto-gari again. As soon as Helio fell, I pinned him by Kuzure-kami-shiho-gatame. I held still for 2 or 3 minutes, and then tried to smother him by belly. Helio shook his head trying to breathe. He could not take it any longer, and tried to push up my body extending his left arm. That moment, I grabbed his left wrist with my right hand, and twisted up his arm. I applied Udegarami. I thought he would surrender immediately. But Helio would not tap the mat. I had no choice but keep on twisting the arm. The stadium became quiet. The bone of his arm was coming close to the breaking point. Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Helio still did not surrender. His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the left arm again. Another bone was broken. Helio still did not tap. When I tried to twist the arm once more, a white towel was thrown in. I won by TKO. My hand was raised high. Japanese Brazilians rushed into the ring and tossed me up in the air. On the other hand, Helio let his left arm hang and looked very sad withstanding the pain."

Arm Triangle



This submission may pop up any time a fighter is mounted, and the fighter on top manages to isolate the arm of his opponent. I'm not great at explaining this stuff, so here's a diagram.



The fighter on top will then rotate his body away from his opponent, this puts a crazy amount of pressure on the fighter on the bottom. It applies the same principles as the triangle (isolated arm, blood choke) but uses the arms instead. You will sometimes here it called "turning the clock" when the fighter rotates to apply pressure.


Those are all the common submissions. There are those that are less common but still happen - kneebars, heel hooks, ankle locks, omoplatas, gogoplatas as well as those that are nearly unique, like the Mir lock. Most subs you see will be one of these, or a variation on one of these.

Warning: While I Do Train, I am still new to BJJ and I'm sure someone may take issue with some of the things I wrote here, they may not be 100% technically perfect but they should be pretty good.

Grifter fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Feb 2, 2011

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

How much does it cost a bar to show a PPV?

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

henkman posted:

Taxes.
If the fighters don't report the bonuses as income they are very, very dumb.

Five Cent Deposit posted:

I know MMA in general and UFC specifically are sometimes shady (duh) but I hope they aren't as shady as the various boxing promoters out there... I just want to hear the thoughtfully reasoned explanation for the locker room bonuses. Especially since they aren't such closely guarded secrets.
Like fatherdog said, the UFC's ultimate reason is "because they can" but to get more detailed it's "because it is in their interest to do so."

Off the top of my head, I can think of a list of reasons why the UFC would do this.
  • It gives them greater tools in terms of rewarding fighters. Matt Hamill gets cash, Kaleb Starnes doesn't.
  • It makes it harder for fighters to negotiate.
  • It makes Dana look like some sort of a philanthropist - you can see that in action on this forum when people say "sure, he only got 10K but the locker room bonus will be sweet!" when in fact we have no idea.
  • It gives Dana the ability to talk out of both sides of his mouth. He can say things like "X fighter is the best paid in the UFC" when that can mean best contract or best bonuses or whatever he wants.
  • It grows fighter gratitude - see the philanthropy thing above.
It is a scummy system, and they do it because they can.

1st AD posted:

I can't think of many industries where your coworkers actually know your salary (unless you tell them).
Not to get too LF up in here, but this tends to work in favor of the bosses.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

What kind of wacky round system were they using in the early PRIDEs? I was looking at Pride 2 on wikipedia and came across this.

* Openweight bout: Brazil Royler Gracie vs. Japan Yuhi Sano

Gracie defeated Sano by submission (armbar) at 33:14 of round 1.

And this.

* Middleweight bout: Brazil Renzo Gracie vs. Japan Sanae Kikuta

Gracie defeated Kikuta by submission (guillotine choke) at 0:43 of round 6.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Can someone talk in depth about takedowns? Different types, how to tell a good one form a bad one, maybe some gifs of "here's a good one" vs. "here's a bad one".

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

I was really impressed by Aldo's head movement against Hominick. Even when the rest of him was dead tired, he was still able to use it to dodge a lot of Hominick's strikes. Why don't we see more of that? I'm not talking Aldo specifically, it's more that most MMA fighters are closer to Nick Diaz than Muhammed Ali in terms of head movement.

Grifter fucked around with this message at 00:15 on May 16, 2011

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Teepkick Shakur posted:

Are there pride DVD (or blu ray) box sets available that show the complete events as aired? I was going to purchase the ones distributed by the UFC but apparently they dont show any of the walkouts and cut out any camera shots of the commentators.
I've got some DVDs that I bought at a garage sale and I believe they show everything. I can check when I get home tonight. Incidentally, if you see Pride DVDs for $1 each at a garage sale, buy that poo poo because you will never see its like again.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Tezcatlipoca posted:

I know I just think it's interesting that it doesn't really matter how much power is behind the punch if it isn't accurate and well timed.
Anderson is really the king of this.



Walking backwards while throwing what looks like a zero effort punch, but it clearly catches Forrest perfectly and rattles his brain - look at how his head snaps around.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

I think the statement can be read in a number of ways but for whatever it's worth I agree that JJ could be fairly described as someone with the most raw talent upon entering MMA. He wasn't described as having achieved the most or as the most experienced, but with the largest base talent.

Xguard86 posted:

well its a flawed analogy because college football is so high profile that potential #1 draft choices (IE: the Army All American Game) are predicted even when they are still in High School. In a theoretical MMA world were amateur fights receive that kind of scrutiny, Bones would be a top pick. Someone like Brock Lesnar or Bj Penn would also be a #1, but you wouldn't take say Edgar or a young GSP and say they're going to be hall of famers.
Could you talk about that or link an article? I know nothing about football but I am curious what that means.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Xguard86 posted:

You can read a little about how it started, its all actually pretty interesting, if you flip through a copy of The Blind Side.
Thanks for the info. I've read Moneyball and The Big Short and enjoyed both, I'll get to The Blind Side eventually.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

I've seen a number of people say that Chael is no longer training with Team Quest Gresham. Who is he with now and when did he make the transition?

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

On the other hand, I think he's gained a bit more sympathy now that we know he was bullied by Matt Hughes and is generally down on himself.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Avenging_Mikon posted:

Ah, something I'll notice after watching more fights, I suppose. I thought the way "lay and pray" is brought up, it might have been a thing that actually happened more than almost never.
When people use "Lay 'n' pray" it shouldn't usually be read as the guy on top doing nothing while the guy on the bottom is active. Usually a more accurate reading of it is "smothering top control while doing little damage". The guy on top is doing a good job of controlling his opponent but is not using that advantage to deliver damage, preferring instead to focus on control. So in that situation you usually won't see the guy on the bottom throwing a lot of subs because he's getting controlled too tightly to produce much offense. What you're describing would be something like "hapless top control against active bottom aggression" or some such, there's no real neat term to wrap it up.

(Good fighters usually don't try that many subs from the bottom anyway, they're too busy using their hooks to initiate a scramble and escape back to their feet. See Edgar, Frankie.)

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

It looks like at least in Nevada caffeine is most likely not banned but it's a bit confusing. They have a blanket ban on all stimulants, but they also say that they use the WADA list (anything on that list is banned by NSAC), and WADA specifically defines caffeine as fine in competition.

quote:

The following substances included in the 2012 Monitoring Program (bupropion, caffeine, nicotine, phenylephrine, phenylpropanolamine, pipradol, synephrine) are not considered as Prohibited Substances.
So I guess it's a stimulant but it is not banned?

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

heeebrew posted:

Any documentaries or perhaps books that could explain the history and evolution of martial arts throughout the world or perhaps throughout Asia or something? Any good martial arts documentaries period?
I think The Smashing Machine is the best regarded around here. It's about Mark Kerr, who was at one point one of the most feared heavyweight fighters around. It also features Mark Coleman, and is a big part of the Coleman love on the forums. For the same era you can watch Choke, which is about Rickson Gracie but I thought The Smashing Machine was much more of an honest look at a fighter while Choke is more of a promo piece.

For more current stuff there's a documentary about Anderson Silva called Like Water which has been well reviewed but as far as I know hasn't been distributed so it would be hard to find. There's a documentary about Jon Fitch called Such Great Heights but I'm also not sure if that one can be easily found either. I haven' seen Jens Pulver's documentary but if it's anything like Jens Pulver it's probably horribly depressing.

I'd be curious if anyone else has suggestions on books. I've read Matt Hughes's autobiography (Made In America) and while it's interesting as a portrait of sociopathy I don't know if I'd recommend it as a book. I've also read Forrest Griffin's book (Got Fight) which is funny but doesn't really tell you that much about MMA.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Save Russian Jews posted:

I was thinking it could just be a general MMAth thread, like a repository for crazy stat-poo poo (I'd honestly love to have whatever access dokmo has to fight info) and those sometimes-cool, sometimes-not who-beat-who flowcharts.
I still have a file that dokmo provided access to years ago, it basically has fighters, event names, rounds, and win methods. It's somewhat inconsistent but consistent enough that you can pull data from it fairly easily. The problem is that while it starts at UFC 1, it only goes up to 2009. I could copy it into google docs if you don't have it already.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Save Russian Jews posted:

I'd like to take a look at it, at least. Sorry for falling off the face of the earth, my school does half-semesters so right now I'm in the middle of midterms week.
There you go.

Polemides posted:

Having never seen this Shannon Ritch guy fight, and based solely on his ridiculous record, I like to think he comes out like a froth mouthed berzerker from the opening bell
He clearly knows BJJ from all his sub wins, but also gets subbed in the first round all the time.

Grifter fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Feb 14, 2012

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Bubba Smith posted:

5) I believe Lesnar had his heart into his training, just not his heart into fighting. After the past two years with all of his medical problems, he likely decided that he doesn't need to risk it when he has a family to take care of. As of now he can earn about the same amount of money doing WWE that he did doing MMA, except he doesn't have to push himself nearly as hard.
I'm not a WWE guy, but isn't pro-wrestling incredibly difficult and hard on the body? I'm not sure Brock will push himself less there, I guess unless he doesn't really have to train or go on the road, he just appears at big events, collects a big paycheck and leaves.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

heeebrew posted:

Does Freddie Roach suffer from some form of dementia? I apologize if this is an offensive question but something seems off about his speech/head movements.
He has parkinson's.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

This is from the b-league thread but it's a historical question about MMA so I am posting it here.

-Atom- posted:

Public voting worked out really well when the UFC let people decide on the Fight of the Night

oh wait, no it didn't
When was this and how did it go?

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

ROFLburger posted:

Holy poo poo




Thank you
You should really read the book too, because it's a fascinating look into a bad person who has absolutely zero self-reflection. All that stuff that's written up there? Now imagine it written in a tone that clearly indicates that the author is either proud or amused whenever he does something sociopathic.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

NovemberMike posted:

Yeah, one of the issues with chin talk is that we're seeing the fights and not feeling them from the fighters perspective. A lot of stuff that can look impressive to us might have someone rolling with the punch and not being hit that hard while hits that look weak can hit flush on someone that isn't prepared. The whole "chin" conversation blends a ton of stuff that shouldn't be combined if you're trying to have a realistic conversation.
I always think about this when I compare the visual of a knockout vs. how it must feel.



It looks like barely a tap.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Halloween Jack posted:

I remember when he was given Sinosic, who was 1-5 in the UFC and basically came back just to lose to Bisping and wash out. Then after the Hamill and Evans fights showed he wasn't ready for prime time, he was given McCarthy, who also came back from the indies just to lose a retirement fight to Bisping. Then when the Henderson demonstrated that he still hadn't stepped up to the next level, he got Denis Kang. After loving up the chance to look great by beating an over-the-hill Wanderlei, he got the guy who lost to both of the prominent middleweight contenders. In retrospect, he did eventually step up, but back in 08-09 it really felt like he was being bottle-fed until he was strong enough, and he easily could have washed out without the benefit of some clever booking.
That reads like pretty normal matchmaking to me. Win at the lower level, fight a tougher guy. Lose to that guy? Back to the lower level. Bisping has just never gotten completely out of that cycle by repeatedly winning the high level fights, which would presumably have resulted in him fighting higher level guys continuously.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

EvanSchenck posted:

We mostly do monthly UFC threads about current events and then sporadically people try to do special threads about interesting topics that slip through the cracks. Just throw poo poo in the monthly thread, people are always down to get a fresh fan addicted.
Yeah, this is right. hit up the monthly thread. People won't tell you to shut up for bringing up old stuff, it's fun to hear the perspective of a new fan.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Has Matt Brown actually improved in his sub defense? I recently rewatched the Brown/E. Silva fight and I have to believe that the Brown who got subbed by Seth Baczynski would have gotten RNC'd by Silva during the early part of the first round.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Bundt Cake posted:

Bascynzki is actually a pretty good fighter and was easily hurting matt standing, and hurt him bad before he guillotined him. As far as improved sub defense, I guess if hes drilled way more and could instinctively defend the choke better yeah then he wouldn't get choked. But pretty much anybody is vulnerable to being choked when theyre unable to avoid getting hurt on the feet and are forced to go to an area of the fight where they aren't as comfortable.

I think every time Matt got subbed in the UFC it came right after somebody blasted him with hard punches. Maybe there was one stray one where he wasn't, but I don't think so. Even Big Dog had to hurt him before he tapped him. I think if anything, his improved striking defense and ability to avoid GnP from his back has kept him from getting subbed. When Kim took Brown's back at the beginning of their fight, he defended well, because he had his wits about him.
I haven't jumped on the Fight Pass train yet but stuff like this really pushes me to. I'd like to sit down and watch all of the fights where Brown got subbed and see how it lines up with ones where he spent a lot of time defending without getting caught.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

I was looking at Oleksiy Oliynik's record this morning and saw that he RNC'd Monson in Oplot. Was this one of those cases where someone gets stunned or knocked down, then subbed while their brain is still jangling, or did Oliynik really outgrapple Monson?

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Is Hendricks still with Team Takedown? I'm wondering if that whole effort might have paid for itself pretty much solely through him.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

It's the clock that makes this. My brains wants to believe it's a 1/2 second loop but noooope.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

When I think accuracy, I think Anderson.



He waits for the right moment and then just goes straight through the guard and hits on the button.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

New forum name is excellent.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Elemennop posted:

This is basically a meaningless statement and applies to all grappling. Imagine what a style of grappling that doesn't use the opponents weight against them would look like. Just deadlifting your opponents?
I would watch this sport. Each contestant benches their opponent. If successful, both contestants have six months to gain weight. Repeat until someone can't lift someone else or a heart attack happens.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

I.N.R.I posted:

i should think it depends on how many concussions you get while doing them
In football it's probably going to be tied to the position. Someone playing on the line is going to get a lot more hits (every play) than a receiver. Probably similar in combat sports, where it's a style thing - Chris Leben probably has more concussions than Anderson.

I think the answer to the question is it depends on the person but none of them are good for your brain.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Tezcatlipoca posted:

A fighter who relies heavily on their attributes to win. Renan Barao and Brock Lesnar are attribute fighters. Cody McKenzie is the opposite of an attribute fighter.
Isn't this basically every fighter who is good though? Anderson used a great chin, insane reflexes and his long body type to great effect. He also happened to have amazing pinpoint striking and good jiu jitsu but it's hard to deny that his physical gifts enabled his style. Mighty Mouse has a great well rounded skill set but it wouldn't work if he wasn't also quick as hell and generally athletic. This mostly sounds like a way of putting down fighters that people don't like. "Oh yeah, Jon Jones won a lot but he just did it with his attributes unlike the hard working Randy Couture".

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Neon Belly posted:

You're starting to sound like Joe Rogan now
Or like baseball announcers. I don't remember the details but I believe someone in SAS once did a really interesting study where they demonstrated that baseball announcers are far more likely to describe black or latino players as "talented" or "athletic" while describing white players as "hard working" or "scrappy".

CommonShore posted:

The difference is that an attribute fighter builds the style and success around that specific physical attribute. Jon Fitch and Rick Story are extreme examples of fighters who don't have many noteworthy attributes. Even Robbie Lawler and Rory MacDonald don't have any physical characteristic that seems intrinsic to how they approach fighting.

Lesnar's entire style, however, was built around maximizing the effects of his size and power advantage over his opponents. Roy Nelson's was about finding ways to apply his punching power. Neither of them had any other path to victory when that was denied.
This is a nitpick but Lesnar is also very quick for a man of his size. I feel that you're mixing things up here. Is "punching power" a physical attribute? What about Brock's wrestling? He's certainly very large, strong and fast but he's also very good at the double leg. It sounds like what you are describing (at least in these two examples) is less to do with physical attributes and more to do with them only having one gameplan, or only one set of skills around which they can build a gameplan.

quote:

You're right in that it's not a binary thing. Fighters can be more or less dependent on their attributes, but "in good shape" isn't a noteworthy attribute for a pro fighter.
I agree with this.

I.N.R.I posted:

even if it was true the fighters who have the best bodies are the hardest workers anyway. like yoel romero and souza etc.
I think that once you reach really elite levels of athletic competition you have to have some combination of hard working, physical gifts, skills, attitude and some other advantages to really get there. I think it devalues fighters to shrink them down to just being one particular physical attribute. Jon Jones has a huge wingspan and that enables him to do crazy things like use elbows as punches but he still wouldn't be able to do that without building up skills with those elbows. People like the Diazes have great attributes in their awesome cardio but that wouldn't mean much without those hours of hitting the bag.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

I am sad that Nam Phan was pretty crappy. He is a cool dude.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply