Sprecherscrow posted:

I feel like an important element in both Ennis and Aaron's work is the notion that after so many years it just stops being about his family. He continues on because it's the only way he knows how to live anymore. He is a broken, emotionally dead shell of man. When he succeeds in his mission and kills a few more criminals it ultimately provides himself with nothing. He is not a main to be sympathized with, but pitied. He is a man whom joy has fled. Sex is able to provide pleasure on a pure physical level to the extent that it is perhaps the one pleasure that he can still feel since his nerve centers in his brain and penis still function. The deeper emotional pleasures of actually loving someone or something, the actual joy we all manage to get out of human life, is unknowable to Frank. The Punisher is sometimes criticized for glorify vigilante action, but Ennis and Aaron avoid doing this by showing that it has no real positive effects. Sure the Punisher always "wins" in the context of each story, but the criminal element recuperates and Frank is back to square one with only another piece of his humanity discarded. The only destination for someone who would attempt the Punisher's path is the absolute nadir of human misery.

Tato posted:

Na, I enjoyed War Zone as well, especially the weird story where Frank was put in some Matrix-like virtual reality where his family was alive. Punisher, Punisher War Journal, and Punisher War Zone all wrapped up with the "Countdown" crossover.

Frank was tricked into thinking he shot an innocent bystander and became catatonic. He was sent to prison and strapped in the electric chair, but SHIELD faked his death. Eventually he snapped out of it, grew a pony tail, became smitten with a mafia princess and joined the mob:



He joined SHIELD at some point and I think he killed Nick Fury. He may have died in the process. I don't really recall how The Punisher was killed before he was resurrected as a demon hunter.

Snowman_McK posted:

It's summed up in a line in Long Cold Dark, I'm paraphrasing, but it's something along the lines of "Back in Nam, they were my way home. When they were taken from me,they turned out to be my way home in the worst way" He was at home in War, his only gripe in Nam was that the war ended. He wanted a war that would never end. Frank Castle was a disguise he wore before Nam and after he came back, the Punisher's who he is, and was.

I loved Max, the Ennis run, it was only about the fourth comic I read, and it blew me away. I also loved that the medium's longevity allowed to really strike at the heart of what it is to be a fictional vigilante: a long, downbeat story where it never really ends.

I also really liked the Kitchen Irish arc, mostly for the shootout on the aircraft carrier, which better be in the next goddamn movie. It also contained the truest glimpse into the character ("he's been doing it for forty years, how do you think he feels?")

E the Shaggy posted:

TheJoker138 posted:

Yes, you do. We may all know his origin and have seen it done over and over again, but the general public who doesn't know who or what a "Punisher" is should be given the origin. Also, what pisses me off most about War Zone is that the War Journal script that was the follow up to the Jane movie never got made. It had some of the same elements that later went into War Zone (the old Don's birthday party, Jigsaw being a combination of Jigsaw and Nicky Cavella, Pitsy and Ink, etc) but did them in a serious, brutal, much more true to the source material way. It also had the subplot of the Punisher copycats from Welcome Back, Frank, reduced down to just The Holy, which would have been loving awesome.

TheJoker138 posted:

Microchip in a movie is not something that ever needed to be done, regardless of the actor.

The one scene I'll give credit to is the one with Jigsaw making his huge speech in front of the flag. If the rest of the movie had been that insane, it would have at least been entertaining in a Crank kind of way. As it is, it's just out of place though.

picosecond posted:

The coloring and inking on this is great, but look at that gaunt face, the linebacker shoulders and those ham hands -- it makes Castle look like a old dockworker. Which is maybe what he would look like in real life, but is never how I pictured him. Mike Zeck's Punisher is still definitive for me.

Asphalt Engine posted:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2ue1e6b.jpg (Linked for huuuuge)

So here's my favorite Punisher anything. Always hits me in the gut whenever I read it. Comes from those "Punisher Armory" one or two page backups in "Punisher: War Journal" (I think) that were eventually collected.

Mister Roboto posted:

I have a feeling we'll be seeing a bit more of that in the next decade as all the war-based characters have to be updated for the new generation. Haven't they already retconned Tony Stark's war origin to be a more modern one?

I wonder if they'll ever move Frank to, say, an Iraqi or Arghan vet. I have no interest in getting political, but I could see them upgrade Frank to a PSTD shellshocked Vet from the "illegal" war or whatever you want to call it.

RevBabyKiller posted:

The ones I'd most like to see MAX-ified are No Rules, Suicide Run, Psychoville, the first Rosalie Carbone arc, Fortress Miami (which was way better than the Krieghof one), and all of the Payback arcs.

Without Steve Dillon

RevBabyKiller posted:

That was a pretty good arc save for the terrible ending. Changing Frank's skin color to hide his identity is less bizarre than current 616 stuff (FrankenCastle especially) but still pretty far out there

Mister Roboto posted:

Ultimate Fantastic Four worked great at the start, moving from the Space Race to modern military experimentation.

They tried with Ultimate Punisher and corrupt police being the cause. That wasn't as good an origin, but it showed they're willing to experiment.

Lurdiak posted:

I wouldn't say that it's not as good an origin so much as they didn't explore it very much yet and let the concept of Ultimate Punisher sort of sit there for the most part.

IndecisiveMexican posted:

Ultimate Avengers vs. Ultimates pretty much made it clear that Ultimate Punisher is exactly like 616 Punisher which may or may not be a bad thing.

TheJoker138 posted:

He also has no qualms about killing corrupt cops like 616 and MAX Frank both do, as shown by him offing Ultimate Jean DeWolfe in USM a while back.

BizarroAzrael posted:

Would 616 Frank not kill corrupt cops? Seems like an odd compromise for him to spare people who might be just as bad as his normal targets but in a uniform.

Ultimate Frank is an ex-cop himself, right? Not a soldier?

Gassire posted:

If he ever killed a cop, even a corrupt one, he'd forever be a cop-killer and lose what latitude the force gives him.

redbackground posted:

I love posting this cover:



I don't even know if this is what Sion is talking about, but hell, it's close enough.

My dream is to one day own the original art of this.

Manwithastick posted:

When did Punisher and Wolverine fight the midgets? That was a good story with the highlight of seeing Wolverine run over with a steam roller

BizarroAzrael posted:

That second one is from The Cell right? I really liked that special, but I was interested in what others thought, given how significant to Frank's whole story it is.


Yeah, that is definitely what I imagine a jaded, bitter and highly competent veteran of at least one especially lovely war turned vigilante-slash-serial-killer watching someone piss on his family's graves would look like.