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Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

I was making a joke based on 50/50 being the new fad but I think specific positions should be left to discussion. I tried to keep the OP Grappling 101 to keep from overwhelming people.

If Rickson and Roger don't do it, it is heresy.

ligaments definitely tear in achilles locks. I know a BB who just recently got out of his ankle brace after being straight ankle locked in a tournament.

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ch3cooh
Jun 26, 2006



Xguard86 posted:

I was making a joke based on 50/50 being the new fad but I think specific positions should be left to discussion. I tried to keep the OP Grappling 101 to keep from overwhelming people.

If Rickson and Roger don't do it, it is heresy.

ligaments definitely tear in achilles locks. I know a BB who just recently got out of his ankle brace after being straight ankle locked in a tournament.

At least he didn't get kneebahed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_47Fjao8Y

fatherdog posted:

Properly applied, a straight footlock will actually break the bones of the foot (the metatarsals), not just the ligaments.


Marcelo actually very rarely sweeps or indeed does anything from half guard; he uses half almost exclusively to get to X-guard or back to seated guard. When you see half guard sweeps in elite competition it's usually from the deep half, of which Jeff Glover is an excellent example.

Interestingly the Nogueira brothers have both used deep-half sweeps extensively in MMA (Big Nog against Werdum and Little Nog against Shogun are good examples) although they play it quite different from Glover.

The half guard game has evolved to the point where it's really hard to quantify what half guard is. There's deep half, 93, half butterfly, x-guard, hell even tornado guard is a half guard variant.

Lucasar
Jan 25, 2005

I'm that kid that made those cool tinfoil dinosaurs.

I'm showing my ignorance here, but does Sumo count as a grappling sport? I know very little about it, but everything I read or watch fascinates me. I know Akebono has tried to do a little MMA or kickboxing here and there, but he just doesn't have the conditioning for it - a round of Sumo wrestling takes about 5 to 40 seconds in general, as opposed to 5 minute rounds in MMA and several of them. How much do MMA guys, particularly those of Judo extraction, know of Sumo techniques? Is there a big difference between Judo and Sumo throws? Put differently, if there was a weightclass in MMA that accomodated Sumo physiques, would Sumo be important?

Also, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LabS79eK5tI

If this isn't the right place to ask, is there anybody from the combat sports crowd who knows enough to start a Sumo thread?

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

by Lowtax


Lucasar posted:

I'm showing my ignorance here, but does Sumo count as a grappling sport?

Yes, albeit one with little mma representation/application


quote:

I know very little about it, but everything I read or watch fascinates me. I know Akebono has tried to do a little MMA or kickboxing here and there, but he just doesn't have the conditioning for it - a round of Sumo wrestling takes about 5 to 40 seconds in general, as opposed to 5 minute rounds in MMA and several of them. How much do MMA guys, particularly those of Judo extraction, know of Sumo techniques?

Machida actually competed in Sumo a little, but his trips and throws are mostly from wrestling and karate. If you're asking if regular mma fighters study sumo, then no.

quote:

Is there a big difference between Judo and Sumo throws?

In sumo you give up a point as soon as anything that isn't the soles of your feet touch the ground, and also as soon as you get pushed out of the (small) circle, so the techniques are a lot more limited. There are some throws that are common between it and judo, so in that sense judo guys know some "sumo" technique.

quote:

Put differently, if there was a weightclass in MMA that accomodated Sumo physiques, would Sumo be important?

Not even a little.

quote:

If this isn't the right place to ask, is there anybody from the combat sports crowd who knows enough to start a Sumo thread?

I doubt there'd be enough interest to really sustain a Sumo thread, but if someone knowledgeable would like to start one, please feel free.

zbn
May 10, 2009


I keep meaning to ask and forgetting; what exactly is reaping the knee, and why is it banned in some competitions?

Lucasar
Jan 25, 2005

I'm that kid that made those cool tinfoil dinosaurs.

^ Thanks that's helpful.

I was aware that sumo has pretty formal conditions for winning, but according to the OP, so does competitive judo, so I figured I'd ask.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

by Lowtax


SpoonmanUK posted:

I keep meaning to ask and forgetting; what exactly is reaping the knee,

http://goatfury.blogspot.com/2009/0...t-footlock.html

quote:

and why is it banned in some competitions?

Because the IBJJF are a bunch of pussies.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

At one time Sumo was actually very much like wrestling/judo, they used similar throws and takedowns. I believe you could also win through pin and submission. I think really primitive Sumo might have even allowed some forms of striking but I'm not sure.

I lost a lot of my old martial arts books so this is just based on memory

Xguard86 fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2011 around 03:02

MycroftXXX
May 10, 2006

A Liquor Never Brewed

fatherdog posted:

Because the IBJJF are a bunch of pussies.

Seriously, lemme use slicers. At least no gi.

dokomoy
May 21, 2004


Xguard86 posted:

I meant that they do not use the Gracie name, and would not even if Rorion didn't copyright it. It is called "Machado Jiu-jitsu" or "RCJ BJJ" when someone is trying to refer to that branch.


I train under a Machado

Which Machado do you train under? I train under/with Jean Jacques.

Also FD- I don't know how you decided when one lineage starts and another ends but, the Machado's(at least Jean Jacques) have had a falling out of sorts with Carlos Gracie JR, so I don't think it's totally wrong to say they have a separate lineage going forward.

Dante posted:

you should because of the all the fad guards that caused an uproar and bitching about rule changes to make them illegal because no knew how to counter them (spider guard) then people stopped caring once they figured it out, the 50/50 guard remained and is getting increasingly popular. It also has an interesting history, being more or less invented as a way to somehow beat Cobrinha by rethinking an old stalling position then taking on a life of its own, Ryan Hall etc who now makes a living tapping everybody with his 50/50 nogi guard. It's also interesting because when we say guard it's really shorthand for fighting position for the guy who is on the bottom, but with the 50/50 it's a mirror image position and a position that's actually 100% neutral in terms of positional advantage.



By no means am I a 50/50 expert but there are a couple of points I want to make. First 50/50 wasn't designed strictly to stall or beat Cobrinha. It first got popular in no gi as a way to attack with the heel hook, and it can be used to finish guys in the gi as well(Cobrinha beat Bruno Fratzatto in the finals of the Mundials one year with a toe hold from 50/50 with like 20 seconds left) the fact that all the top featherweights are crazy flexible doesn't mean you can't finish from there(Rodrigo Cavaca finishes dudes from there all the time).

More importantly 50/50 isn't always a 100% neutral position. Depending on the exact position of the legs and grips(in the gi anyways) one person often has a real advantage, it's still hard to sweep or pass, but one guys in the drivers seat so to speak. Jeff Glover talked about this at the seminar I did last week, but I don't know the position well enough to go into great detail on how one person would be in a stronger position than his opponent.

Even if you participate in bjj/sub grappling/whatever it's sometimes boring to watch a lot of matches, but here are some cool highlight video's of awesome dudes doing awesome poo poo

Terere http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJqgXTsnf54
Roberto "Cyborg" Abreu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDF0if7SQBY
Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0_6u07fOcI
Rubens "Cobrinhha" Charles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMCzXYwx2HE

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Dante posted:

The kimura in the picture should actually be a kimura and not an americana, there's no leglocks or compression submissions in the OP either.
The original version I wrote was 100% oriented towards MMA, I'm glad to see that people have expanded on it now that it's being used in the grappling thread too.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

Grifter posted:

The original version I wrote was 100% oriented towards MMA, I'm glad to see that people have expanded on it now that it's being used in the grappling thread too.

Yes, thanks again for your great starting point. It was much easier to just expand what you had than create a post whole clothe.


I would rather not say which Machado I train under, in case I someday piss off an internet detective and they decide to hunt me for vengeance using my post history.

henkman
Oct 8, 2008

I DO WANT TO HIGHLIGHT


Some day, when BJJ is as mainstream as other MAs, streetfights will start with all involved parties immediately falling down and buttscooting towards each other looking for a limb. Maybe you can be a trendsetter and do the same to your internet assailant.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

Actually when I was in college, the BJJ academy offered an intro class through the University which was insanely popular. Basically, almost every college guy in town knew how to do a guillotine and sit up sweep. We all laughed that soon, every bar fight would just be complete silence as everyone clinches up and tries to pull guard on each other, then people would tap, everyone would shake hands, and go home without a punch thrown or glass broken.

fawker
Feb 1, 2008

ARMBAR!

People are bringing up Judo in the other thread but ill bring it up here since I think its more appropriate...

Ive recently lost some weight and am more fit than before so im giving Judo a try. How well do Juso skills translate over to BJJ or no-gi grappling? I would like to eventually enter into a competition just to see how I fare against other people...

Would my judogi even be legal in a BJJ competition?

Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006




fawker posted:

Ive recently lost some weight and am more fit than before so im giving Judo a try. How well do Juso skills translate over to BJJ or no-gi grappling?

Not in the slightest really. Thats not a knock on Judo, but the modern sport is so specialized that its tough to really apply it in any outside setting. You'd know a few good throws, but not enough to really take any advantage of them, and would be a perpetual victim to wrestlers, and grapplers alike.

Thats not to say Judo isn't totally worth it if you want to study it I really encourage you to, its a very cool martial art, but you wont have much success simply walking into a grappling tournament with nothing more than some Judo experience at your back.

KidDynamite
Feb 11, 2005

No, Mr. Rice, I expect you to PLEASE WORK OUT


Why don't you do BJJ if you want to compete in BJJ? gently caress.

Ho Chi Meeeeee
Jun 13, 2008

let me shovel out your brains
hang my image in your skull
so I can be the vision
in your nightmares from now on


KidDynamite posted:

Why don't you do BJJ if you want to compete in BJJ? gently caress.

Why the gently caress did the Gracies wrestle? To get better at it and to improve. Some guys like a challenge, and want to prove their style of grappling (sambo, catch wrestling, judo etc) is just as effective and relevant as BJJ so why not go and prove it on their grounds? IIRC Josh Barnett absolutely beasted through the IBJFF No-Gi world champions even though they specifically had banned two of Josh's main weapons, neck cranks and heel hooks (correct me if I'm wrong, just going off of memory) and he absolutely destroyed everyone he faced.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

by Lowtax


Oh Em Gee posted:

Why the gently caress did the Gracies wrestle? To get better at it and to improve. Some guys like a challenge, and want to prove their style of grappling (sambo, catch wrestling, judo etc) is just as effective and relevant as BJJ so why not go and prove it on their grounds? IIRC Josh Barnett absolutely beasted through the IBJFF No-Gi world champions even though they specifically had banned two of Josh's main weapons, neck cranks and heel hooks (correct me if I'm wrong, just going off of memory) and he absolutely destroyed everyone he faced.

If by "absolutely destroyed" you mean "got a judge's decision after a scoreless tie"

Also Barnett trains under a BJJ black belt so calling anything he does proof of the effectiveness of catch wrestling is kind of retarded

fawker
Feb 1, 2008

ARMBAR!

mostly because I dont want to do BJJ classes YET as the gyms in my area are stupid expensive.
Wanna get a Judo base I guess and then maybe next year join an MMA gym so I can get not only BJJ but maybe some other stuff too.

*EDIT*
BJJ gyms in my area are at the minimum $90+/month for 4-5 classes a week (which I wouldnt be able to take advantage of)

This Judo place I dug up will cost me $40 a month.

fawker fucked around with this message at Feb 4, 2011 around 04:47

Neurosis
Jun 10, 2003


Fallen Rib

BJJ is also a lot more expensive than Judo. I considered trying it at my uni as during semester which hosts some reasonably accomplished judoka, as an alternative to BJJ during semester, but the fact they didn't have any dedicated newaza days was a big turnoff.

KidDynamite
Feb 11, 2005

No, Mr. Rice, I expect you to PLEASE WORK OUT


Oh Em Gee posted:

Why the gently caress did the Gracies wrestle? To get better at it and to improve. Some guys like a challenge, and want to prove their style of grappling (sambo, catch wrestling, judo etc) is just as effective and relevant as BJJ so why not go and prove it on their grounds? IIRC Josh Barnett absolutely beasted through the IBJFF No-Gi world champions even though they specifically had banned two of Josh's main weapons, neck cranks and heel hooks (correct me if I'm wrong, just going off of memory) and he absolutely destroyed everyone he faced.

Yea but he's obviously starting out so it's not he's supplementing his BJJ with Judo you big tard.

Ho Chi Meeeeee
Jun 13, 2008

let me shovel out your brains
hang my image in your skull
so I can be the vision
in your nightmares from now on


fatherdog posted:

If by "absolutely destroyed" you mean "got a judge's decision after a scoreless tie"

Also Barnett trains under a BJJ black belt so calling anything he does proof of the effectiveness of catch wrestling is kind of retarded

Dear god you are being a pedant, just because you cross train doesn't mean you are suddenly apart of that style. Erik Paulson has trained in multiple, multiple styles and therefore could be called any number of things not just a BJJ black belt.

Ho Chi Meeeeee fucked around with this message at Feb 4, 2011 around 04:54

Ho Chi Meeeeee
Jun 13, 2008

let me shovel out your brains
hang my image in your skull
so I can be the vision
in your nightmares from now on


KidDynamite posted:

Yea but he's obviously starting out so it's not he's supplementing his BJJ with Judo you big tard.

Welp, I can't read.

fawker
Feb 1, 2008

ARMBAR!

haha thanks for coming to my defense anyways oh em gee, and everyone else thanks for the advice I guess

Pneub
Mar 12, 2007

I'M THE DEVIL, AND I WILL WASH OVER THE EARTH AND THE SEAS WILL RUN RED WITH THE BLOOD OF ALL THE SINNERS

I AM REBORN


Please try to keep it serious OP, this isn't the tread for that. Here's a proper flying guillotine to straighten things out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOnEXNe4eU4

Bohemian Nights
Jul 14, 2006

We uninspired
We unadmired
And tired and sick
of being sick and tired

Clapping Larry

Hooray! A new grappling thread.

I have a question; I have ridiculously flexible knees and ankles and so I've never been caught in any kind of kneebar or ankle lock and I've always managed to twist out of it or out-anklelock them. Because of this, I've usually told opponents after rolling that getting a leg lock on me will be very hard, and that if they don't get it it's probably not from bad technique, just my body being broken. The result of this is usually that people stop going for leg locks on me, and welp, that seems kind of detrimental to everyone involved. Should I just start keeping my mouth shut.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

by Lowtax


Oh Em Gee posted:

Dear god you are being a pedant, just because you cross train doesn't mean you are suddenly apart of that style. Erik Paulson has trained in multiple, multiple styles and therefore could be called any number of things not just a BJJ black belt.

Paulson trained in BJJ much longer than he trained in catch, and his first art was judo. I never said Josh was "a part" of BJJ, but when a guy trains under a BJJ black belt for ten years, calling him beating a BJJ guy "proof of his style of grappling" is really pretty stupid.

MycroftXXX
May 10, 2006

A Liquor Never Brewed

Bohemian Nights posted:

Should I just start keeping my mouth shut.

Yes, eventually someone is going to seriously wreck the poo poo out of your knee or foot because you keep saying your super flexible.

mobn
May 23, 2005

by Ozmaugh


Bohemian Nights posted:

Hooray! A new grappling thread.

I have a question; I have ridiculously flexible knees and ankles and so I've never been caught in any kind of kneebar or ankle lock and I've always managed to twist out of it or out-anklelock them. Because of this, I've usually told opponents after rolling that getting a leg lock on me will be very hard, and that if they don't get it it's probably not from bad technique, just my body being broken. The result of this is usually that people stop going for leg locks on me, and welp, that seems kind of detrimental to everyone involved. Should I just start keeping my mouth shut.

when i spar with people i tell them they shouldnt take their hands away from their head because i hit really really hard. this has resulted in people never punching at me. this seems detrimental to everyone involved.

Bohemian Nights
Jul 14, 2006

We uninspired
We unadmired
And tired and sick
of being sick and tired

Clapping Larry

MycroftXXX posted:

Yes, eventually someone is going to seriously wreck the poo poo out of your knee or foot because you keep saying your super flexible.

Yes, the thought has crossed my mind.

Also thanks Mobn, you're a star.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

Bohemian Nights posted:

Hooray! A new grappling thread.

I have a question; I have ridiculously flexible knees and ankles and so I've never been caught in any kind of kneebar or ankle lock and I've always managed to twist out of it or out-anklelock them. Because of this, I've usually told opponents after rolling that getting a leg lock on me will be very hard, and that if they don't get it it's probably not from bad technique, just my body being broken. The result of this is usually that people stop going for leg locks on me, and welp, that seems kind of detrimental to everyone involved. Should I just start keeping my mouth shut.

Yes. Stop. Leglocks are very dangerous and you should not push the limits with them. Particularly you should not be twisting or moving very violently. I once had a guy that was so frantic to escape he would have torn his own knee apart if I hadn't released his foot. It spun around in my armpit like a sprinkler head.

A lot of the time a leglock will not actually hurt until something is torn or broken. Heel hooks are especially bad about going from no obvious discomfort to 6 months of rehab and surgery.

You do not want this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce0m8Buc86o

The popping sounds were his knee.

Bohemian Nights
Jul 14, 2006

We uninspired
We unadmired
And tired and sick
of being sick and tired

Clapping Larry

Xguard86 posted:

You do not want this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce0m8Buc86o

The popping sounds were his knee.

Yeah, that's pretty

westcoaster
Oct 26, 2010


Be really careful with leglocks and pushing the limits with any submission because you're flexible. It is better to just tap in training and learn to not get into that position than to test your flexibility. For example I used to have really flexible shoulders but after doing something as small as spraining my AC joint from a weird kimura it has never really been as flexible.

Just tap and restart. Better to begin again and learn how not to get into those positions then spend 4 minutes fighting a submission and learn nothing.

Edit for content: Also, I just had my first nogi comp was alot of fun and learnt alot.

hopper2k
Jan 22, 2007


Just got done working/competing the IBJJF Houston Open this weekend. It was awesome as work/life has been stressful for the last 3 weeks, keeping me off the mat, ugh, but this has been the best weekend for me in awhile. Excuses about being away from training aside (yeah yeah!), I lost my first match (competed at blue belt about 7 times now, and only won 2 matches total, but not giving up anytime soon). My game plan was partially executed and I got a sweep I have been working on alot as of late, so, moral victory!

I worked as a mat organizer and felt great being in charge of alot of competitors and was surrounded by great competition in general. Being at a tournament from a "workers point of view" was also good in its own unique way, seeing the game from a nuetral perspective basically. I saw alot of top competition from some Lloyd Irvin and Lovatos guys. I really wish I could somehow make a career about of jiu jitsu.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

My friend moved to OKC and now trains at Lovato's. He said there was a big push for guys to go to Houston and compete.

Lovato is also apparently all about competition and runs highly structured classes based around drilling and tournament ready fitness.

Save Russian Jews
Jun 7, 2007

who the fuck is this guy anyway, i can't even see his face


Lipstick Apathy

I'm 24, a college sophomore, and ~175-180 pounds. I can bench press my weight, with maybe a few pounds tacked on. I have weird-rear end GSP legs and can squat like 375 or so regularly. Never tested my max, but I'd probably be able to hit 400.

Anyway, I 'm considering switching schools, and the new one has a Div 1-AAA wrestling team. I want motivation to get in shape (having a kid has tacked roughly 20 pounds onto me), and wrestling looks interesting.

I have minimal BJJ experience and somewhat extensive combatives experience within the Army. My only experience with wrestling is back suplexing the only kid my weight (some 115 lb nerd) in high school from the side position and pinning him.

What is the best way to not embarrass myself. Feel free to ask anything you need to determine why I should not attempt this, ever.

edit: after some reading, apparently squatting that much is a good thing. I was not aware. This is my level of knowledge regarding gym equipment and weight things

Save Russian Jews fucked around with this message at Feb 14, 2011 around 05:02

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him


Xguard86 posted:

You do not want this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce0m8Buc86o

The popping sounds were his knee.

I don't hear any, besides Silva's tapping on Imanari's leg?

Holland Oats
Oct 20, 2003

Only the dead have seen the end of war

Save Russian Jews posted:

I'm 24, a college sophomore, and ~175-180 pounds. I can bench press my weight, with maybe a few pounds tacked on. I have weird-rear end GSP legs and can squat like 375 or so regularly. Never tested my max, but I'd probably be able to hit 400.

Anyway, I 'm considering switching schools, and the new one has a Div 1-AAA wrestling team. I want motivation to get in shape (having a kid has tacked roughly 20 pounds onto me), and wrestling looks interesting.

I have minimal BJJ experience and somewhat extensive combatives experience within the Army. My only experience with wrestling is back suplexing the only kid my weight (some 115 lb nerd) in high school from the side position and pinning him.

What is the best way to not embarrass myself. Feel free to ask anything you need to determine why I should not attempt this, ever.

edit: after some reading, apparently squatting that much is a good thing. I was not aware. This is my level of knowledge regarding gym equipment and weight things

Why did having a kid cause you to gain weight?

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Opal
May 10, 2005

some by their splendor rival the colors of the painters, others the flame of burning sulphur or of fire quickened by oil.


gonna guess you start to move around less, eat more, eat worse things, eat more irregularly, less time for hobbies (training) etc

edit:
or save russian jews is a girl i guess

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