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Pwny_Xpress
Nov 17, 2006

WEC Never Die


Grab Your Foot! posted:

Specifically Roger is known for his cross choke from mount, which is a gi choke and can't be done without the gi. Most of the other chokes from mount also involve the gi, and those that don't aren't really unique to or even necessarily best attempted from the mount, like all the arm triangle variants.

Plus because most submission attempts require taking some sort of risk (like giving up a sweep if you attempt an armbar from mount and your opponent escapes) and in MMA top position is that much more valuable even really good grapplers often just say gently caress it and punch the dude rather than try for a submission.

And the World Championship being referred to is the "World Jiu Jitsu Championship" or the Mundials, which is the most prestigious jiu jitsu (ie with the gi) tournament in the world.

So all the hubbub about Overeem winning a grappling tournament or w/e was with a gi? Also, how prestigious is that win really?

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widunder
May 2, 2002


Pwny_Xpress posted:

So all the hubbub about Overeem winning a grappling tournament or w/e was with a gi? Also, how prestigious is that win really?
Overeem won the ADCC European trials (ADCC is the world's most prestigious no gi/submission wrestling competition) which is no gi. It's quite impressive for someone who is mainly known for his striking, if not as impressive as taking a medal in the actual ADCC and so on.

Grab Your Foot!
Apr 23, 2007

The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.


Yeah, Overeem won the European qualifiers for ADCC in 2005, and then withdrew from the competition because the tournament proper would have run very close to the second round of the Pride Final Conflict tournament, which was a bigger deal for Overeem because MMA is really more his bag and because it pays better particularly for someone who isn't likely to actually win a tournament like Abu Dhabi. Alistair ended up losing in the semi finals of that tournament to Shogun, who went on to win the tournament.

As for Alistair's run in the European ADCC trials, first of all they were legitimately impressive and more so because he won every match via submission and via the same submission, a guillotine. On the other hand the European trials are traditionally the weakest trials to qualify for ADCC (because Europe generally doesn't have very many high level submission grapplers)and I know nothing about anybody Overeem beat in that qualifier. If nothing else it did prove that Overeem's guillotine is nasty, which you can see here as he uses it to win his final match.

edit: to not begin every post with specifically.

Grab Your Foot! fucked around with this message at Feb 20, 2011 around 13:38

Opal
May 10, 2005


OrangeCrush posted:

jacare vs Roger 2k4 mundial pt 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZdDh_yQVSU

pt 2:

The arm is broken just after 1min in this video. such an incredible match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUYwlxHjkMA

i've tried to figure out why jacare wouldn't eventually get disqualified for passivity or timidity? i thought continuously, consciously escaping the fighting area was a penalty offense

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

by Lowtax


the periodic fable posted:

i've tried to figure out why jacare wouldn't eventually get disqualified for passivity or timidity? i thought continuously, consciously escaping the fighting area was a penalty offense

The ref docked him points for it twice, but he'd taken Roger's back earlier so he was still ahead.

Opal
May 10, 2005


i'm not sure about the point rules, would the third offense be a disqualification if the time hadn't run out?

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

by Lowtax


the periodic fable posted:

i'm not sure about the point rules, would the third offense be a disqualification if the time hadn't run out?

I believe it's up to referee discretion; I would imagine that most guys would have gotten dqed already but the ref was nervous about straight up disqualifying a really high-profile competitor in the finals of the world championships.

Also while it's gotten better in the past few years, refereeing in sport jiujitsu and nogi is one of the biggest clownshows in combat sports. Seriously if you were a wrestler or a judo competitor watching a couple jiujitsu refs is enough to make you spit bile.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

I went to a podunk tournament and got to the finals. Foreshadowing their shittyness, One of the judges leaves the judging table to corner my opponent who is from their school. It was the biggest clown show ever. The ref just didn't award me two points for a sweep, and then, when my opponent "won" by 2 the loving judges ran over to congratulate him.

When my team started complaining about the conflict of interest and poor judging, they pointed to their ref, who was "a black belt from brazil" as proof of their infallibility, which is a ludicrous argument on many separate levels. We packed up halfway through the day and just left, since there was no point in dealing with any of that.

I've also been taken down by a wrestler, he then left my guard and motioned for me to stand up. Rather than him losing two points for disengaging the ref threatened to dock me two points for "stalling" when I didn't want to stand up.

It really is not an enjoyable experience and a big reason why I don't really enjoy competition.

dokomoy
May 21, 2004


I think the judging at IBJJF events(at least for black belts) has gotten much better over the last few years(50/50 isn't near the debacle it once was, very few big gently caress ups by refs etc). However in smaller tournaments over the last few years I've seen any number of debacles including refs talking on the phone during a match, a ref not seeing that a competitor was asleep and numerous instances of refs not giving points for positions held for waaaaaaay longer than 3 seconds. The problems not going to go away until promoters stop reusing terrible referees.

Acinonyx
Oct 21, 2005


The last tournament I went to a guy from my school got DQ'ed for a double leg, from his knees, being called 'a slam' (wrestling ruins everything). This was in an advanced division. It was your basic local clown show in MA.

henkman
Oct 8, 2008

I DO WANT TO HIGHLIGHT


dokomoy posted:

a ref not seeing that a competitor was asleep

AKA my most recent match at a tournament.

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002



dokomoy posted:

I think the judging at IBJJF events(at least for black belts) has gotten much better over the last few years(50/50 isn't near the debacle it once was, very few big gently caress ups by refs etc). However in smaller tournaments over the last few years I've seen any number of debacles including refs talking on the phone during a match, a ref not seeing that a competitor was asleep and numerous instances of refs not giving points for positions held for waaaaaaay longer than 3 seconds. The problems not going to go away until promoters stop reusing terrible referees.

The reffing is a big part of the reason I rarely compete in BJJ. As much as I hate the million rules Judo has, the reffing is way better. For example, I often will ref at local competitions. I had to become a black belt before I could ref. I also had to pass a written exam. Then they let me ref only juniors for my first few tournaments (which actually worked out well since that allowed me to still compete in seniors). Before each tournament we have a meeting for about a half hour going over any rule changes or clarifications and giving anybody a chance to ask questions about any situation they can dream up. Then when we go out and ref the most senior guy will often not even take the mat all day. He'll just sit in the corner with a notepad and call you over after every match to go over what went well, and what went wrong. Plus there are always three refs on the mat, which gives you confidence that you'll be overruled if you gently caress up.

And this is for local tournaments, only after a few years of local tournaments am I now being allowed to even think about reffing a regional event.

The refs at every BJJ tournament I've been to are just random guys who may or may not have even been given a sheet listing the rules.

Senor P.
Mar 27, 2006
I MUST TELL YOU HOW PEOPLE CARE ABOUT STUFF I DONT AND BE A COMPLETE CUNT ABOUT IT


Acinonyx posted:

The last tournament I went to a guy from my school got DQ'ed for a double leg, from his knees, being called 'a slam' (wrestling ruins everything). This was in an advanced division. It was your basic local clown show in MA.
I've been fortunate in that the tournaments I've gone to have had goof refs.

For example I don't really think this is a slam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL22PCYmUug#t=3m10s
(I can understand refs wanting to keep white belts from developing bad habits and making sure the tournament is relatively injury free. But it is not really a slam in my opinion.)

However the below would be an example of very obvious slamming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JEY...related#t=3m50s

To me 'slams' are very specific to what is seen in MMA. (Guy A has Guy B in closed guard. Guy B wants to escape but can't quite do so. Guy B lifts Guy A up and slams him on the ground. Guy A will typically either hit his head and be knocked out, have the wind knocked out of him. Occasionally Guy A is unfazed but this seems rare. Although it's been a while since I've watched MMA so maybe this has changed.)

Someone jumping guard onto you, throwing off your balance making you fall ontop of them isn't a slam. (Ideally you can hold them up, but this isn't always the case.) Pushing someone towards the mat while trying to jerk an arm out of an armbar isn't a slam. Hell getting thrown from a vicious kata-guruma from standing I wouldn't think of a slam either, as unpleasant as it is.

Senor P. fucked around with this message at Feb 21, 2011 around 00:25

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

by Lowtax


One of the things I've been bitching about for years is that takedowns or sweeps or passes to someone's turtle should be worth points, just like sweeping or passing to side control. I think encouraging people to give up their backs to nullify points breeds bad habits for mma and has no compelling reason to exist in grappling.

always be closing
Jul 16, 2005


fatherdog posted:

One of the things I've been bitching about for years is that takedowns or sweeps or passes to someone's turtle should be worth points, just like sweeping or passing to side control. I think encouraging people to give up their backs to nullify points breeds bad habits for mma and has no compelling reason to exist in grappling.

I hear that, but I'm selling it. I love the turtle as a defensive grappling position, youre in so much danger, that its a trade off for not giving up points(if turtle immediately rolls to guard, then a takedown should be awarded). Grappling is all about using tech to beat tech, and the fact that the opponent cant strike you, means he needs to solve the 'puzzle' that is how you play each position.

I mean, I also love the grip game in bjj and everything about competing in a Gi, just saying.

dokomoy
May 21, 2004


fatherdog posted:

One of the things I've been bitching about for years is that takedowns or sweeps or passes to someone's turtle should be worth points, just like sweeping or passing to side control. I think encouraging people to give up their backs to nullify points breeds bad habits for mma and has no compelling reason to exist in grappling.

I'm not quite sure about how the rules work regarding sweep to turtle but in the finals of last years Pan Am open class Antonio Braga Neto was up on advantages over Bernardo Faria when Bernardo attempted an omoplota, he didn't get Antonio to roll so he released the arm and came up to top of turtle and got two points and won the match.

always be closing
Jul 16, 2005


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOT_U_UwnI

dokomoy
May 21, 2004



That kind of owned

awkward_turtle
Oct 26, 2007
swimmer in a goon sea

dokomoy posted:

I'm not quite sure about how the rules work regarding sweep to turtle but in the finals of last years Pan Am open class Antonio Braga Neto was up on advantages over Bernardo Faria when Bernardo attempted an omoplota, he didn't get Antonio to roll so he released the arm and came up to top of turtle and got two points and won the match.

That counts as a sweep because Faria started in bottom guard and ended up on top. The issue is that if Neto had passed his turtle by shoving him to side control, it wouldn't actually count as a guard pass, and if Faria had Granby Rolled Neto from bottom turtle to side control, that likewise would not stinkyhole as a sweep. Also, people will "turn turtle" to block a pass, and even if they get taken over it doesn't ount for points, since it's the guard pass that's worth points, not the attaining f side control. Sport BJJ doesn't really know what to make of the turtle. It's one of my favorite positions thanks to Telles' DVD but it is kinda strange.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

I've always thought giving two points (or some value, hell maybe only a single point) for establishing control on a turtled guy, IE seatbelt hold, referee position, etc. would help with people turtling up constantly.

fawker
Feb 1, 2008

ARMBAR!

I posted in the Ask/Tell thread about how I was starting Judo classes, buuut because of my work schedule that isnt working out anymore so Im gonna have to drop the extra $$$ and take up BJJ instead.

For a mouthguard, will the $2 boil and bite I used in HS be adequate? And for my first class, is it cool for me to show up in like a t-shirt/shorts for a gi class?

Subparr
Feb 4, 2004

Meanderthal


If you have a Judo gi, that will be just fine. Also, mouth guards are really a 'what works best for you' kind of deal in my opinion. I will recommend not getting the top and bottom style, breathing with those things sucks.

henkman
Oct 8, 2008

I DO WANT TO HIGHLIGHT


Yeah I just use the 2 dollar mouth guard for BJJ and it works just fine.

Paul Pot
Mar 4, 2010

by Y Kant Ozma Post


will compression shorts tear in no gi due to angry buttscotting? I don't want to roll in my thai shorts, but I do want to try out the gay sport class without having to buy new gear

Acinonyx
Oct 21, 2005


fawker posted:

For a mouthguard, will the $2 boil and bite I used in HS be adequate?

Do yourself a favor and get a mouth guard from your dentist. Best $20 I ever spent. People don't even know I have it in because it fits so well and doesn't affect my breathing or speech (mine is just the upper).

KidDynamite
Feb 11, 2005

No, Mr. Rice, I expect you to PLEASE WORK OUT


Acinonyx posted:

Do yourself a favor and get a mouth guard from your dentist. Best $20 I ever spent. People don't even know I have it in because it fits so well and doesn't affect my breathing or speech (mine is just the upper).

What the gently caress?? Did your insurance cover it or something? My mouthguard going to be $300 because insurance doesn't cover it. But boy howdy am I excited to get that thing.

Gomi Pile
Jan 19, 2011

by Ozmaugh


Acinonyx posted:

Do yourself a favor and get a mouth guard from your dentist. Best $20 I ever spent. People don't even know I have it in because it fits so well and doesn't affect my breathing or speech (mine is just the upper).

I thought just the upper didn't provide any protection against having your brains scrambled.

colonel_korn
May 16, 2003



Gomi Pile posted:

I thought just the upper didn't provide any protection against having your brains scrambled.

For grappling all you really need is something that will prevent your teeth from chipping if you catch a stray elbow or something.

Gomi Pile
Jan 19, 2011

by Ozmaugh


colonel_korn posted:

For grappling all you really need is something that will prevent your teeth from chipping if you catch a stray elbow or something.

i don't have access to my online journals right now but the literature is pretty split on the use of mouthguards to help prevent concussions when wrestling.

manyak
Jan 26, 2006


Gomi Pile posted:

i don't have access to my online journals right now but the literature is pretty split on the use of mouthguards to help prevent concussions when wrestling.

"grappling" isnt the same as wrestling. people get hurt in wrestling, grappling is mostly about climbing between dudes legs and going to town

KidDynamite
Feb 11, 2005

No, Mr. Rice, I expect you to PLEASE WORK OUT


Gomi Pile posted:

I thought just the upper didn't provide any protection against having your brains scrambled.

Most boxers still use uppers only. You're getting much less shock to your head doing BJJ so you should be a ok.

Grab Your Foot!
Apr 23, 2007

The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.


While grappling without a mouthpiece is not a good idea I'm actually happy that I wear headgear way more frequently. Occasionally somebody will elbow you in the mouth or something and then you appreciate the mouthguard but fuckers are all about touching my ears and they do not appreciate the touching.

If you care about having nice ears and particularly if you are susceptible to cauliflower ear wear them, because getting ears drained (either by a doctor or the do it yourself version) sucks.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

HATE MONDAYS posted:

People get hurt in wrestling, grappling is mostly about climbing between dudes legs and going to town

Petition to change my thread title.

Wear a mouthguard though, for real. Chipping teeth and what not are very painful and expensive, you will get used to having it in before a month is done, and it will save you a literal and metaphorical headache.

MycroftXXX
May 10, 2006

A Liquor Never Brewed

Paul Pot posted:

will compression shorts tear in no gi due to angry buttscotting? I don't want to roll in my thai shorts, but I do want to try out the gay sport class without having to buy new gear

They'll probably hold up fine.

Bohemian Nights
Jul 14, 2006

We uninspired
We unadmired
And tired and sick
of being sick and tired

Xguard86 posted:

Wear a mouthguard though, for real.

This. I've chipped off a tiny piece of the front of one of my front teeth after gnashing them together too hard in a choke over my chin, and while this is not only expensive to have fixed, it's also impossible. I've tried to have it fixed three times (only had to pay once), and it doesn't last.
Always wear a mouth guard!

Pierat
Mar 29, 2008
ASK ME ABOUT HOW MUCH I LOVE THE BNP


Bohemian Nights posted:

This. I've chipped off a tiny piece of the front of one of my front teeth after gnashing them together too hard in a choke over my chin, and while this is not only expensive to have fixed, it's also impossible. I've tried to have it fixed three times (only had to pay once), and it doesn't last.
Always wear a mouth guard!

I had to have one of my front teeth fixed 5 times before it finally stayed. Stay the course!

Pierat fucked around with this message at Feb 24, 2011 around 00:17

always be closing
Jul 16, 2005


wow, I think im going to start wearing mine, Ive been doing this a little while and nothing bad has happened yet, but theres times when im working a choke on someone else, and I feel like im gritting my teeth way too much. I have a nice top only mouthpiece, no excuse not to.

Is it cool if I keep posting match videos? I dont think I can embed FB videos, but this match is just awesome. Braga Neto vs Cyborg from semifinals of last years's Worlds. I remember they didnt show this match on the stream, but there was a thunderous applause for the finish, the whole place was shaking it seems, and the commentators just stopped talking haha. hopefully this link works:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video...307297&comments

boa cyborg!

dokomoy
May 21, 2004


I've never worn a cup/mouthpiece/head gear and it's mostly not been a problem(I've been kicked in the balls a few times but I've never had a problem with my teeth or ears).

Save Russian Jews
Jun 7, 2007

who the fuck is this guy anyway, i can't even see his face


Lipstick Apathy

dokomoy posted:

I've never worn a cup/mouthpiece/head gear and it's mostly not been a problem(I've been kicked in the balls a few times but I've never had a problem with my teeth or ears).

I'm willing to say this is due to luck.

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Mons Public
Jun 22, 2006

Sometimes I look for Rupees.

at least wear a mouth guard

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