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butros
Aug 2, 2007

I believe the signs of the reptile master




FiestaDePantalones posted:

Obligatory let me buy the rash guards/spats/no gi gear!

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Drewjitsu
Sep 2, 2007

Muay Thai is great but Buttscoot-Shin-to-Balls Style is undeniably better.




FiestaDePantalones posted:

Obligatory let me buy the rash guards/spats/no gi gear!

Even if I'm not training right now, still demanding the product!

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




Alternatively give us permission to make our own

FiestaDePantalones
May 13, 2005

Kicked in the pants by TFLC

Alternatively, I really want a cool design to go with a rashguard that says "I heelhook children in the gi"

Pron on VHS
Nov 14, 2005

Blood Clots
Sweat Dries
Bones Heal
Suck it Up and Keep Wrestling


I want a King of the Hill themed rashguard

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




Or an oildome rashguard

ihop
Jul 23, 2001
King of the Mexicans

Someone I used to train with got one from piggly wiggly but he wouldn't say how.

Pocket Billiards
Aug 29, 2007
.

Pron on VHS posted:

I want a King of the Hill themed rashguard

Porrada and porrada accessories I'm guessing.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




Concept question: in what direction is the gravity of grappling? Is it toward submission or towards a stalemate?

More verbose phrasing: Suppose we have an idealized situation two abstracted grapplers of perfectly equal attributes who don't make unforced errors, and we give one of them some kind of positional advantage. Is the inevitable end point of this situation a submission or a return to a neutral position?

A rephrasing: can someone be submitted without making an error? or can someone lose a positional advantage without making an error?

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012



CommonShore posted:

Or an oildome rashguard


You hear that? We want an Oildome rashguard too!

starkebn
May 18, 2004

"Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"


I feel with those parameters, the perfect person who chooses to pull guard first will forever stop their opponent passing, and avoid or escape any leg attacks, so it will be a stalemate because the person in the guard will also perfectly react to any sweeps or submission attempts.

With anyone less than perfect, any attempt to advance possibly leaves a chance for your opponent to react in their favour. Perhaps there are perfect ways to attack, but i don't know. What we know as high-percentage techniques are going to be the ones that are more likely to approach perfection.

Drewjitsu
Sep 2, 2007

Muay Thai is great but Buttscoot-Shin-to-Balls Style is undeniably better.




CommonShore posted:

Concept question: in what direction is the gravity of grappling? Is it toward submission or towards a stalemate?

More verbose phrasing: Suppose we have an idealized situation two abstracted grapplers of perfectly equal attributes who don't make unforced errors, and we give one of them some kind of positional advantage. Is the inevitable end point of this situation a submission or a return to a neutral position?

A rephrasing: can someone be submitted without making an error? or can someone lose a positional advantage without making an error?

Submission. You put them into a dilemma of which they can only react or defend a certain way, giving you the other submission.

I put you in the outside sankaku. I have the heel hook and ankle lock/knee bar set up. You can't defend both the ankle lock AND the heel hook.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




starkebn posted:

I feel with those parameters, the perfect person who chooses to pull guard first will forever stop their opponent passing, and avoid or escape any leg attacks, so it will be a stalemate because the person in the guard will also perfectly react to any sweeps or submission attempts.

With anyone less than perfect, any attempt to advance possibly leaves a chance for your opponent to react in their favour. Perhaps there are perfect ways to attack, but i don't know.

What if we start somewhere less symmetrical than guard

FreakyMetalKid
Nov 23, 2003



CommonShore posted:

What if we start somewhere less symmetrical than guard

If we accept that "positional advantage" exists, then it has to lead to submission. If they are completely equal players otherwise and one of them is given an advantage, that should tip the scale for that grappler. If you argue that the "positional advantage" would be lost by the equal grappler, then you've contradicted the notion of "positional advantage." It was not an advantage, it was equivalent. That said, I do believe that positional advantage exists. There are clearly better positions than others and to escape from bad ones requires exploiting an advantage in some other dimension (eg skill, strength, flexibility, speed). With no other areas to compensate, the grappler granted the preferred starting position would eventually get the submission. If we could play this simulation out, it would be interesting to learn which positions are actually better or worse in the ideal.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




FreakyMetalKid posted:

If we accept that "positional advantage" exists, then it has to lead to submission. If they are completely equal players otherwise and one of them is given an advantage, that should tip the scale for that grappler. If you argue that the "positional advantage" would be lost by the equal grappler, then you've contradicted the notion of "positional advantage." It was not an advantage, it was equivalent. That said, I do believe that positional advantage exists. There are clearly better positions than others and to escape from bad ones requires exploiting an advantage in some other dimension (eg skill, strength, flexibility, speed). With no other areas to compensate, the grappler granted the preferred starting position would eventually get the submission. If we could play this simulation out, it would be interesting to learn which positions are actually better or worse in the ideal.

So the way that you view it is that grappling space-time is an M-shaped curve, where there's a middle area that will always lead to stalemate if nobody makes a mistake, but an outside area where terminal velocity always lead to a submission, if nobody makes a mistake.

Thus, in a bout that starts in a neutral position, if it ends in submission, either one fighter has an attribute advantage large enough to skew the match, or the other made an error. Or, if a fighters find themself in a neutral position vs an at-least evenly matched opponent, there's nothing positive they can do to win, other than to hope somehow to cause the opponent to make an error?

(btw I'm not sure what I believe, I'm just rolling the idea around in my head and seeing what comes of it).

(e. also I'm including things like "getting caught off balance" under "errors")

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...


CommonShore posted:

Concept question: in what direction is the gravity of grappling? Is it toward submission or towards a stalemate?

More verbose phrasing: Suppose we have an idealized situation two abstracted grapplers of perfectly equal attributes who don't make unforced errors, and we give one of them some kind of positional advantage. Is the inevitable end point of this situation a submission or a return to a neutral position?

A rephrasing: can someone be submitted without making an error? or can someone lose a positional advantage without making an error?

Stalemate for sure. There's a reason the old catch wrestling matches lasted like 4 hours.

Hellblazer187
Oct 12, 2003

Ozzy and Zakk!




I don't think "never makes a mistake" can really ever be allowed as a condition even in this hypothetical, because we are talking about humans and humans tire. If we have two exactly equal grapplers and one has side control top and the other has side control bottom, and they both play absolutely perfectly, side control top will eventually get a submission. The weight will cause bottom player to tire and eventually slow down. Even if there's no technical mistake made, if you start to slow down or lose strength, you will eventually get beaten by the person who retains physical advantages. If we include "moving too slowly" as a mistake, the condition of "no mistakes" becomes impossible.

I also think in a dynamic environment the concept of "error" or "mistake" gets a bit wonky. You and your opponent move independently and at the same time. Things can happen that upend the equilibrium that aren't clearly "wrong moves"

Assuming robo-grapplers who cannot tire, I think the trend would be towards stalemate. Defense in my experience defense tends to be less demanding technically than attack.

starkebn
May 18, 2004

"Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"


I think high percentage attacks are likely to be that way because there is less your opponent can do to stop you finishing them. So if you have the positional advantages such that you have your opponents posture and structure broken down and a technically good submission is available from there (there probably always will be if you have that much of an advantage) I don't think your opponent will stop you finishing the submission unless you do something non-perfectly.

Rob Biernacki from Island Top Team teaches his methodology that way if you look up anything of his on YouTube

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



I think if we follow the rules of the hypothetical very exactly then the result is a submission, assuming that positional advantages are real and a player can achieve one.

If we allow even a bit of reality to seep in then I think stalemate becomes the most likely situation. To contrast to another combat sport like boxing or MMA, BJJ is inherently slow and not very damaging. This means that ideal competitors can (and do) train extremely good defensive techniques that are very reliable, even over long periods of time. This sort of survival is a foundational element of BJJ-- look how the Gracies fought early on, it was basically get to a stalemate and then wait until their unskilled opponent makes a mistake.

Moving forward again, if we look at the actual competitive sport I think stalemate will be common, but submissions will periodically be able to dominate. BJJ is still a young sport so its hard to be sure, but the number of possible techniques is extremely large: far too large for any one person to be expert at, or even aware of, them all. I suspect the metagame will allow (maybe not always, but sometimes) for offensive specializations that can overcome existing defensive strategies, some of which will result in submission.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

Mechafunkzilla posted:

Stalemate for sure. There's a reason the old catch wrestling matches lasted like 4 hours.

Untimed BJJ and early mma would point this direction too.

Hellblazer187
Oct 12, 2003

Ozzy and Zakk!




If you have untimed, submission only, I think you would eventually get submission. Yes old catch wrestling matches went on forever, and it was boring, which was why pro wrestling was invented. But you did eventually have winners! Eventually someone gets too tired to be at top performance.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




Hellblazer187 posted:

If you have untimed, submission only, I think you would eventually get submission. Yes old catch wrestling matches went on forever, and it was boring, which was why pro wrestling was invented. But you did eventually have winners! Eventually someone gets too tired to be at top performance.

That's a slightly different question though.

Admittedly this is very much a navel gazing question that I've posed, but I'm pondering some of the elemental or even subatomic questions of grappling - the equivalent of chess's "stalemate is a black win; black can't achieve checkmate without white making at least one small error"

I like the M-curve model of thinking about it - that all other things being equal, that there is a positionally neutral zone that can only result in stalemate without some kind of tactical or technical error allowing one player an opportunity to disrupt the equilibrium, but once outside of that zone submission becomes inevitable so long as the attacking player makes no errors.

This seems important to me for self- assessment and strategic purposes, because if this model is accurate it tells us that there are times when perfect play is to be conservative, and other times where conservative play can't possibly lead to victory.

Where are those lines? I don't know. That's the next question. I can think of places where I can offer nigh irreconcilable dilemmas even in open guard passing (and if my pass there fails, it means I made some kind of error). Some judoka will say that the tipping point is at the standing grip fight.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...


Hellblazer187 posted:

If you have untimed, submission only, I think you would eventually get submission. Yes old catch wrestling matches went on forever, and it was boring, which was why pro wrestling was invented. But you did eventually have winners! Eventually someone gets too tired to be at top performance.

That wasn't really the question though, it was if equal grapplers in an unequal position are going to tend to return to a more neutral position more often than the advantage being pressed and built on. At high levels of grappling defense is the problem that more often needs to be solved with creativity in attack, rather than the other way around. You don't get someone like Dean Lister who goes a zillion matches without getting submitted if attacking is stronger than defending, and it's not like he's a 'flawless' grappler.

This would absolutely not be the case with certain rule changes -- like if eye gouging or small joint manipulation was allowed, for example. Even MMA, with strikes on the ground, means that basically any time you're defending while grappling you're also getting closer to losing and you have to do something to lose less. It's not viable to protect a points lead by getting GnPed, the way a wrestler can with defensive wrestling (while being active enough to not get penalized).

Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Apr 7, 2021

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




Mechafunkzilla posted:

That wasn't really the question though, it was if equal grapplers in an unequal position are going to tend to return to a more neutral position more often than the advantage being pressed and built on. At high levels of grappling defense is the problem that more often needs to be solved with creativity in attack, rather than the other way around.

This would absolutely not be the case with certain rule changes -- like if eye gouging or small joint manipulation was allowed, for example. Even MMA, with strikes on the ground, means that basically any time you're defending while grappling you're also getting closer to losing and you have to do something to lose less. It's not viable to protect a points lead by getting GnPed, the way a wrestler can with defensive wrestling (while being active enough to not get penalized).

Hmm you're right about the rules. Things tend to play out a bit differently in CJJ - there's far less slow advancement through middling positions because nobody wants to hang out there.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...


CommonShore posted:

This seems important to me for self- assessment and strategic purposes, because if this model is accurate it tells us that there are times when perfect play is to be conservative, and other times where conservative play can't possibly lead to victory.

This is definitely true -- the one that immediately comes to mind is that when someone is extending an armbar on you, continuing to resist with strength is a losing proposition -- you have to go for a hitchhiker escape or you're done.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




Mechafunkzilla posted:

This is definitely true -- the one that immediately comes to mind is that when someone is extending an armbar on you, continuing to resist with strength is a losing proposition -- you have to go for a hitchhiker escape or you're done.

and conversely, when you're attacking an armbar on someone, it's an error to do anything other than to maintain the position and continue to go for the arm bar.

Here's another facet of the question then: what wins, a perfect hitchhiker or a perfect arm bar? That might just be a koan without an answer. But if the perfect hitchhiker wins, all perfect grappling returns to a neutral position, and that if I got arm barred, I made an error that I can attempt to identify and to improve upon. If the perfect armbar wins, it means that if someone escapes my arm bar, I made an error that I can improve upon.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

CommonShore posted:

and conversely, when you're attacking an armbar on someone, it's an error to do anything other than to maintain the position and continue to go for the arm bar.

Here's another facet of the question then: what wins, a perfect hitchhiker or a perfect arm bar? That might just be a koan without an answer. But if the perfect hitchhiker wins, all perfect grappling returns to a neutral position, and that if I got arm barred, I made an error that I can attempt to identify and to improve upon. If the perfect armbar wins, it means that if someone escapes my arm bar, I made an error that I can improve upon.

I've heard this debate with some high, high level black belts. I think their positions revealed more about their own games and personalities than object reality. No one could really settle on anything.

I think taking things holistically, perfect defense will beat perfect offense. You can keep from being submitted far earlier in the skill journey than you can submit someone.

Maybe once you're down to individual positions it changes. Much harder to escape a locked in rnc than finish it, for example.

You see that in most other sports too. Idk if it's entropy or inertia or what but it's just easier for things to not happen. That's why rules usually provide the offense some kind of advantage.

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004



Picked up some interesting tidbits about how Danaher runs his classes from a Craig Jones interview (Sonny Brown Breakdown). Apparently they don’t finish armbars while training. They try to immobilise their opponent with their positioning, but won’t bridge their hips in for the finish. The idea is that a lot of armbar finishes are 75% technique and 25% just yanking on it, and since they aren’t allowed to just yank on it, they get really good at flowing between the different leg configurations you might use to finish, and it makes shoulder injuries in the training room very rare, and it gives training partners the confidence to practice their deep/late escapes without fear of injury.

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004



That’s a good podcast, by the way. It’s kinda similar to that ‘BJJ Mental Models’ podcast in terms of the subject matter, but it’s just a chill australian dude asking questions, while the hosts of Mental Models are so pretentious that I want to punch them every time they talk (and they talk over their guests, too, and their guests are the only valuable part of their podcast).

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-sonny-brown-breakdown/id1476963733

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

02-6611-0142-1 posted:

Picked up some interesting tidbits about how Danaher runs his classes from a Craig Jones interview (Sonny Brown Breakdown). Apparently they don’t finish armbars while training. They try to immobilise their opponent with their positioning, but won’t bridge their hips in for the finish. The idea is that a lot of armbar finishes are 75% technique and 25% just yanking on it, and since they aren’t allowed to just yank on it, they get really good at flowing between the different leg configurations you might use to finish, and it makes shoulder injuries in the training room very rare, and it gives training partners the confidence to practice their deep/late escapes without fear of injury.

This is how I've done it myself and how my preferred partners operate. I mean you have to get the technique to finish good guys anyway.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




02-6611-0142-1 posted:

Picked up some interesting tidbits about how Danaher runs his classes from a Craig Jones interview (Sonny Brown Breakdown). Apparently they don’t finish armbars while training. They try to immobilise their opponent with their positioning, but won’t bridge their hips in for the finish. The idea is that a lot of armbar finishes are 75% technique and 25% just yanking on it, and since they aren’t allowed to just yank on it, they get really good at flowing between the different leg configurations you might use to finish, and it makes shoulder injuries in the training room very rare, and it gives training partners the confidence to practice their deep/late escapes without fear of injury.

Interesting that this is what ends up happening when my team does what we call "chill rolls."

ihop
Jul 23, 2001
King of the Mexicans

I did judo this evening and it feels like my whole body is making the silent scream face my kid makes right after he's hurt himself but right before he's taken a good deep breath to really start wailing.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

My shot is Sunday. So once that's settled in, I'm back!

I'm actually not too worried about getting back into it, but I'm a little worried there's gonna be side-eyes at the gym for staying away so long.

butros
Aug 2, 2007

I believe the signs of the reptile master




Xguard86 posted:

My shot is Sunday. So once that's settled in, I'm back!

I'm actually not too worried about getting back into it, but I'm a little worried there's gonna be side-eyes at the gym for staying away so long.

If there’s side eye gently caress em. Waiting until you can responsibly train shouldn’t be cause for judgement.

Speaking of, had my first session back with a small group of 100% vaxed folks on Thursday and holy poo poo am I out of shape and sore now. My body was just not capable of doing what my mind wanted to, and I was interesting how after 396 days since my last roll what muscle memory was there and also the big gaps in my knowledge/ memory where I would get somewhere and think “I have no idea what to do from here.” Also experienced a few white belt moments of PANIK heavily related to fatigue/lack of oxygen. Targeting 3x per week easing back in.

Hellblazer187
Oct 12, 2003

Ozzy and Zakk!




butros posted:

If there’s side eye gently caress em. Waiting until you can responsibly train shouldn’t be cause for judgement.

Speaking of, had my first session back with a small group of 100% vaxed folks on Thursday and holy poo poo am I out of shape and sore now. My body was just not capable of doing what my mind wanted to, and I was interesting how after 396 days since my last roll what muscle memory was there and also the big gaps in my knowledge/ memory where I would get somewhere and think “I have no idea what to do from here.” Also experienced a few white belt moments of PANIK heavily related to fatigue/lack of oxygen. Targeting 3x per week easing back in.

I'm curious, were you working out during the time away from the mats? I've remained active, but I wonder how much of that will translate to being in mat shape when I'm able to go back (sometime in 2022 if trends hold up in my country).

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




Hellblazer187 posted:

I'm curious, were you working out during the time away from the mats? I've remained active, but I wonder how much of that will translate to being in mat shape when I'm able to go back (sometime in 2022 if trends hold up in my country).

If you've remained active you won't keep as much of your grappling and grappling conditioning as you hope, but you won't lose as much as you fear, and most of what you lost will come back pretty quickly.

I took 17 years off of Judo and most of it came back in 2-3 classes. Some of it didn't disappear at all.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

Personally, My wind at least in general fitness is actually better. I've done more running and things like that. Legs are a bit stronger too at least on my feet.

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butros
Aug 2, 2007

I believe the signs of the reptile master




Hellblazer187 posted:

I'm curious, were you working out during the time away from the mats? I've remained active, but I wonder how much of that will translate to being in mat shape when I'm able to go back (sometime in 2022 if trends hold up in my country).

Short answer no. I did a small bit of jogging early on and again at the end of last year. I about two hours of walking most days getting my two year old out of the house, and a couple short bike rides a week. Starting in January a friend of my who's a personal trainer gave me a 3-4workout/week to do geared toward getting me ready for reentry to the mats, which I think probably did help from a prehab perspective.

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