Grappling: Grab their foot in a threatening manner, it doesn't cost you anything

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > Grappling: Grab their foot in a threatening manner, it doesn't cost you anything

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Dante: Feb 8, 2003

The kimura in the picture should actually be a kimura and not an americana, there's no leglocks or compression submissions in the OP either.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 01:31

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# ¿ Apr 18, 2024 16:55

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Oh Em Gee posted:

I'm just merely stating that Cecchine isn't just total poo poo. He actually does know a few things but pretty much packages them in such a way that no one takes him seriously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yRnPRYidNA

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 01:45

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Xguard86 posted:

Got them reversed and had Kimura first, fixed. I was hoping someone else would jump in with a leglock section but I will do that and gi chokes and edit it in. Compression locks falls under the omoplata, N/S choke for things an average fan will not see very often.

Unless someone wants to do an omoplata/compression lock whatever section, then I'll stick it in there.

what do you mean is this the grappling for mma thread or something, throw the poo poo in it's basic grappling.

edit: actually that entire section should be rewritten to be about grappling and not about mma grappling, those fuckers have like 3-4 threads already they don't need to take over the grappling thread too. I can see about writing a better breakdown that focuses on grappling, because god knows we need more fans of the sport and for it to more accessible since it looks like two guys squirming on each other like horny dogs.

Dante fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Feb 3, 2011

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 02:04

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

yes, and small men loving up everybody

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY8JlJZBgCk

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 02:20

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

KidDynamite posted:

That's not a real grappling match though since that guy wasn't a black belt in BJJ. Some good matches between high level guys are at the Grapplers Quest youtube.

https://www.dstryrsg.com is also a website that should be in the OP, even though I loving hate the layout, along with thefightworkspodcast.com, https://www.graciemag.com/en and matbattle.com

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 02:30

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

quote:

The picture pretty much explains what is happening here. The ankle is trapped under the arm pit and the person arches their back, using the foot as a lever to put pressure on the achilles tendon.

What you're actually doing is hyperextending the foot straining the ligaments on top of the foot to the point where they might snap, you can rotate and dig with your wrist to cause pain in the achilles tendon but it's not going to gently caress it up and people don't tap to pain in the higher levels.

also that kneebar pic is funny but that's not how to apply a kneebar, that chick can spin right out of it.

Dante fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Feb 3, 2011

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 02:52

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

ch3cooh posted:

My only quibble with the informational posts is the one describing various positions and subs. Your half guard section says that the top fighter is harder to sweep. I think that while in MMA that is true (lord knows I would never go to deep half if I could be punched in the face) but in straight grappling looking at a lot of the work done by guys like Marcelo, half guard is seriously dangerous position for sweeps. In my experience I have found sweeping from half (and it's variants) to be far easier than full guard (except butterfly, sweet sweet butterfly guard)

yah it needs to be rewritten with grappling in mind instead of mma grappling.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 02:58

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

quote:

first person that asks me to add anything about 50/50 guard...dies.

you should because of the all the fad guards that caused an uproar and bitching about rule changes to make them illegal because no knew how to counter them (spider guard) then people stopped caring once they figured it out, the 50/50 guard remained and is getting increasingly popular. It also has an interesting history, being more or less invented as a way to somehow beat Cobrinha by rethinking an old stalling position then taking on a life of its own, Ryan Hall etc who now makes a living tapping everybody with his 50/50 nogi guard. It's also interesting because when we say guard it's really shorthand for fighting position for the guy who is on the bottom, but with the 50/50 it's a mirror image position and a position that's actually 100% neutral in terms of positional advantage.

fatherdog posted:

Properly applied, a straight footlock will actually break the bones of the foot (the metatarsals), not just the ligaments.

Yeah this is true, I was correcting that people don't tap from the achilles pressure they tap from the ligament strain really. Hopefully people will tap before the bones go.

Dante fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Feb 3, 2011

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 03:09

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

shizen posted:

so started doing some grappling classes at my gym and my neck is really sore is this common for grappling?

Yes, it's quite common mostly because you unnecessarily tense up in your neck and shoulders while rolling and because you probably have poor technique and roll over your neck instead of your shoulders etc.

quote:

Also am I expected to just get my rear end kicked everyday? I have gone this week and every time we grapple I end up on my back, mounted and subbed in some way or another. I feel as though I don't even stand a chance since I don't know anything. Should I ask them to go easy on me when we spar at the end? I spend most of the time just trying to not get subbed instead of going for anything myself.

Yep perfectly common, the white belt is often called the belt where you learn to survive and the blue belt the belt where you learn to defend. You should continuously drill escapes all the time because that's what you'll need to know against anyone good. One of the good things about schools with beginner classes is that this period tends to be less brutal.

quote:

Also my chest legs and forearms are bruised up badly looks like someone has been punching me there. Not sure I like this sport very much but I'm signed up for the month and was a really good deal and I'm totally gased every workout so my cardio is getting better. I want to get better but guess it sucks to get owned so bad.

If it's a series of small circular bruises this is most likely because of your skin getting pinched during transitions etc which should improve with your technique or alternatively you just have skin that bruise really easily.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 09:04

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

shizen posted:

ah thanks for clearing some of that up especially the neck thing. We do a lot of those shoulder rolls for warm up and I am not that good at them. Also I get choked a lot and tense up instead of just tapping right away.

how long does it take where I can actually be somewhat competitive with my partners? These were no gi classes so I'm not sure what level they were but I am pretty sure I was the only true beginner there this week.

Any other tips for a beginner?

Yeah it's a pretty common warm-up. Probably the easiest way to do them is to get on your knees, take your right arm and feed it under your left ankle then twist your head left and look up to the ceiling, then roll over your right shoulder. Make sure you get a smooth continuous roll (as in don't slam your shoulder into the mat, some part of your back should be in contact with the mat throughout the roll). Pay more attention to rolling over your shoulder correctly then worrying about veering to the left or right as you roll until you can do it easily without feeling discomfort.

How long it's going to take you will obviously depend a lot on who your partners are, how often you train and how seriously etc. Generally I would say that 2-3 times a week for 6-9 months and you should be ready for a blue belt test if you're training seriously, though keep in mind there's a big difference between a new blue belt and a blue belt close to purple. After around 6 months you should know every position, 2-3 escapes from them and a handful of submissions etc and you should begin to get that rolling sense in your body where you pay attention to momentum and timing. As I've watched newbie classes over the years I've noticed that a good tell is that in the beginning people tend to push with their hands and feet, but as they develop they progress to becoming more compact and using their knees and elbows because it's both more efficient and less dangerous. That's a pretty good sign of when someone has started to get into the rythm of grappling.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 17:32

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

westcoaster posted:

Really? that soon? What school do you go to? At my school the serious people who come like 3-4 times a week get their blue belts in two years. Ex-wrestler's get their blues in the time you're talking about, and they've had years of grappling experience.

And what do you do for blue belt test? Our trainer will just roll with you a few times and watch you, and then decide you are ready for a stripe or a new belt. Its very informal.

Obviously this varies a lot depending on the black belt/school, but in general the blue belt is the do you know all these basic positions, escapes and submissions belt. Some are quite lax with these requirements (royce), but in any case it should be possible to hit it in under a year for people who train seriously (which doesn't just mean going 4 times a week, it's what you do there that counts). White is usually a belt that goes by fast, then people have blues and purples for years and then progress relatively quickly from brown to black.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 17:44

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

fawker posted:

I was reading in BJ Penn's book that he basically got his black belt within 3 or 4 years of training. Is this because hes loving ridiculous and talented or did he have some sort of weird Hawaiian grappling background that helped him a lot.

Just natural inclination, I know of one other guy who went from nothing to grappling at a black belt level at a little over 4 years. Like some people are naturally uncoordinated and physically awkward some people are naturally gifted with a great sense of coordination, balance, momentum etc. If they're also a strong visual and tactile learner you end up with a guy who can see someone perform a move once then replicate it instantly. That guy is going to rocket past everyone in a short amount of time if he has the work ethic.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 17:53

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

The thoracic cage is better known as the rib cage and isn't weakened by flexible hips, GSP also has a man rub his chest a certain way to align energy or whatever. Mental composure plays a major role in performance under any high pressure situation and a lot of time is spent on making athletes confident in themselves, their training/gameplan, nutrition etc. This means a lot of weird hokey superstition cropping up (especially since coaches are often former athletes themselves) like wearing the same pair of shoes for 10 years, drinking your own pee and pseudoscientific theories about all kinds of bullshit (you see playing with this kind of sole in your shoe will negate the difference in playing on clay/running this track/jumping on this material and if you gently caress 3 weeks before a fight your legs will be gone)

Dante fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Mar 1, 2011

# ¿ Mar 1, 2011 01:36

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

There's not really a lack of ripped BJJ guys at the top level.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2011 07:36

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

mobn posted:

My RNC technique is pretty bad, which is probably why I don't think I could finish it one handed.

Once I get my arm under their chin, I do the standard hand-on-bicep grip, and put my free hand on the back of their neck. I push forward with that hand, and squeeze my bicep on the choking arm to add more pressure. If I don't do these two things, my arms are long enough that there's free space in there and I don't get enough pressure on the arteries.

Lower your shoulders and expand your chest by drawing a deep breath, this will both drastically increase the pressure and crush their windpipe. Instead of trying to make your elbows touch which will just burn out your arms, push your hands away from you like you're doing a scissoring motion. You can also clench your fists while doing all of this, which will flex the muscles in your arms and cause a tiny bit more constriction.

I think something like 70% of my passes to mount from sidecontrol are based around a failed bridge by the opponent, usually people will try to bridge right away to avoid you establishing sidecontrol or try it shortly afterwards if they sense you trying to set something up. As their hips peak and start coming back down after a failed attempt it's easy to slide your knee and foot over as they're preoccupied with their bridge. Plus 99% of the time people will bridge with both feet planted on the ground and therefore not have that "knee against your hip with their foot on the other knee" check going on. The timeframe of opportunity is small for pulling it off, but if you get good at it it's remarkably high percentage. If someone is really giving you trouble passing though, you can just switch to reverse sidemount and from there you can grab your own foot with your hand and then you can pull it across so high on their torso it's nearly impossible to stop.

Dante fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Mar 3, 2011

# ¿ Mar 3, 2011 06:01

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

well he finally did it

# ¿ Mar 7, 2011 01:54

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Also instead of grabbing your bicep you can clench your hand into a fist once you get it in position, depending on how muscular your forearm is that will cause it to flex and tighten the RNC by quite a bit. 80% of the strength of the RNC should be from rolling your shoulders back, filling your lungs with air and pushing with your hips though. If you haven't got it quite in and you're just using your arms you risk burning them out, especially if you have 6-7 more fights to go in the tournament.

Dante fucked around with this message at 22:38 on May 10, 2011

# ¿ May 10, 2011 22:27

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Tips on guard:

Don't focus on collar chokes or various setups involving using the gi aside from minor grip variations (such as gripping the collar when overhooking) when you're learning the guard. While these are fine techniques it's not in your best interest to diverge your gi and nogi game so early, build a core game of a series of techniques that are available in both settings.

Don't attack "head-on". Roughly speaking it's advantageous for the guy in your guard if his hips line up with yours, and it's advantageous for you if you're off to an angle. Get in the habit of attacking from an angle (and when you're in someones guard get in the habit of recentering).

Give up the closed guard if it's already too late. If you're opponent is already opening your guard, don't wait for him to pin your leg to the ground and start his pass. Immediately transition to open guard, scoot your hips back, put your knees and soles where you want them etc. Staying ahead of your opponent is always advantageous and applies defensively as much at it does offensively.

In my opinion you should focus on these techniques in the very beginning:
Hip bump sweep (properly done with your leg blocking his knee) and respond with kimura if he posts, also practice how to reestablish guard if it fails.
Flower sweep with direct transition to s-mount and armbar (go forward to belly-down preferably instead of back)
Armbar and triangle setups where you can chain them in case the first one fails.

# ¿ May 13, 2011 07:07

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Zuffa has allowed contracted fighters to fight MMA fights in other organizations too, so they're really not unreasonable about that kind of stuff.

# ¿ May 13, 2011 18:30

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Xguard86 posted:

I am assuming you are smart enough to mean this as sarcasm.

Zuffa allows non-important names to fight in other organizations when they have trouble getting them fights within a certain timeframe, it's not talked about much but it happens. It has happened a bit with the deeper divisions like lightweight now, Danny Downes was allowed to fight in a local promotion on may 6th for example.

Dante fucked around with this message at 22:53 on May 13, 2011

# ¿ May 13, 2011 22:50

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

I'm not really much of a tape guy, but I remember seeing some of Demian Maia's stuff on the guard and thinking it was pretty good advice and he speaks understandable english. Especially the guard which is a position dominated by complicated setups and small moves a book isn't all that great.

# ¿ Jun 1, 2011 00:24

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

dokomoy posted:

Sandbagging is something I've never thought about too much. How do you determine if someone is sandbagging? Do you see guys with purple belts in the gym competing at blue(or guys who've been training for 5 years competing at intermediate no gi)? Or are you watching guys and saying "he's way to good to be an x-belt"?

same guy competed in the same division for years and years is a good sign

# ¿ Jun 1, 2011 20:06

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

OrangeCrush posted:

Cobrinha on stalling:

http://www.graciemag.com/en/2011/06...nternational%29

The man is right. ban these 'innovative' stalling techniques!

Haha poor guy, but I can understand him being bitter about the 50/50. Almost every single new positional innovation in jiujitsu has been called a stalling technique, then people figure it out and it's okay. There were calls to have the spider guard banned and in the early 90s they threw shoes at people who went for leg locks in competition.

Not every sport needs to be a spectator sport, it's okay to have a sport that focused on the free range of innovation and art as opposed to the spectacle.

Sure many matches are boring to watch, but in what sport isn't that true? I can't sit through a full american football or soccer match without falling asleep and I saw the entire world championship in curling. Even my hilariously selective viewing of boxing these days end up with more duds than good fights. Half the olympic sports are stuff like children doing somersaults, dudes lifting weights, rowing boats really fast or even ping-pong.

Dante fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jun 9, 2011

# ¿ Jun 9, 2011 01:07

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Nierbo posted:

Best quote ITT.
Its not like BJJ is mainstream anyway. Whats the big deal about making it casual viewer friendly?

edit: Its a money thing isn't it?

Yes, if the only people in the stands are competitors and girlfriends you don't get ticket sales which means a poor prize pool, less sponsorship money and fewer competitors. If it's not interesting to watch you don't get TV coverage, which is the holy grail of sports. People willing to pay or spend time in front of the telly would help the sport grow (MMA has no doubt helped a lot with this) because the more money in it the better the competition becomes. Right now making a living in BJJ is very hard as a competitive athlete.

fatherdog posted:

To be fair, the 50/50 isn't necessarily a stalling technique, but the times it's been used to beat Cobrinha it's sure as hell been used as one.

Yeah, that's why I said I can understand him being bitter about the 50/50. I mean really side-control and mount can be stalling techniques too, that doesn't mean they should be banned. Anything that the other guy is having a hard time getting out of and the other guy isn't using to attack is technically a stalling technique.

OrangeCrush posted:

Its all about money. The art and innovation are not going to disappear if you make people work though. Its what makes american folkstyle wrestling so intense and awesome...

Making a sport spectator friendly usually means instituting a bunch of rules, all of a sudden your sport is now a narrowly defined ruleset instead of a freeform exploration of what's possible. Just look at Judo and its 90 billion rules. This usually comes with its own set of problems, as it's a race to try to exploit the rulesystem to win and ever-increasing rules to hinder the effort in an attempt to make it "pure" again.

Dante fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Jun 9, 2011

# ¿ Jun 9, 2011 03:28

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

The floor is actually wood, not concrete, it's just painted metal grey. Still the red area was way too small, there were at least a dozen matches that ended up on the floor at some point.

# ¿ Oct 7, 2011 00:54

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

SimonNotGarfunkel posted:

Yeah Palhares' behaviour was just bizarre.

When he went to hug his opponent or their corner men, he nearly launched them half way across the arena.

It was pretty funny until he did it to Lovato after he'd nearly ripped off his leg. The man did not look happy.

The funniest thing there was pretending he was going to happyslap Lovato before hugging him.

Also he had enough sense to go around molesting corner men, but only handshaking the judges. Pretty much everyone including Avellan's teammates thinks Palhares is legitimately not all there mentally though.

Galvao understands the slap mentality though

Dante fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Oct 7, 2011

# ¿ Oct 7, 2011 16:12

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Xguard86 posted:

The North/South Guillotine is what I believe that is called. We've got a purple belt who is very good at it. Personally, I've never really gotten it to work but its a pretty viable choke if you can do it. However, you really can't do it with a guy who is face down outside of extreme circumstances. Hughes choked Almedia out like that but Matt Hughes is a genetic freak and Almedia was already very wobbly and incoherent from getting hit.

the increasing pressure thing is more psychological than anything else. If you start 100%, you'll slowly get tired and the pressure will decrease. If you start lower and ramp it up, the pressure will just get tighter and tighter, which makes your opponent wonder how tight this choke will really get, which will have them more likely to tap to what appears to be your exponentially increasing power.

Edit: Oops, misread that. Yeah you're right it's called the north south guillotine.

Nierbo posted:

Typical stupid nierbo-type questions ahead.

How come no one ever goes for a headlock submission like this:

except without having the uke's (?) right arm in. Mainly wondering about going for it in that position but on the ground, not standing up like those guys, so north-south but both guys facing down. I don't know the name of that position, I'm sure someone here can enlighten me. Joe Rogan said once it takes an incredible amount of strength to submit someone like that, but I don't understand why. Why is the arm in so important?

Also, he said something along the lines of holding a submission at 50% for a while and then suddenly moving it up to 75% and then move to 100% squeeze. Is there any truth to that? I always just grab that poo poo and go 100%. Is it so that you don't waste energy if you don't have the position or grip perfect? I know I ask real dumb questions sometimes so thanks in advance.

They happen standing from time to time in MMA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Gmn3YDxJo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtCVsoZjH9I

The problem with doing it from that position is that you have to be able to keep him from taking you down with both your hands occupied (which is why you'll mostly see it done when you can put the opponents back against the wall). If he takes you down and gets to sidecontrol your guillotine is gone. Doing it from northsouth in pure grappling is completely viable, but the problem then is that to get your arms in position around his neck you move so far down that you have no weight on his hips and barely any on his upper body, basically you sacrifice positional control for a choke that can be difficult to get unless you're really good at setting it up. Marcelo Garcia goes for them from time to time (as well as a ridiculously cool floating mount guillotine):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkFHJHC58qc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcQtNN8jK10

They're almost always done inverted (guy on bottom facing up, top guy facing down), because if you're opponent is bellydown like that you should be on his back going for a RNC and because you're probably getting to north-south from side-control unless you're breakdancing galvao style on someone in turtle (plus you can use your shoulder and gravity to pressure the throat instead of using arm strength like you'd have to if he's facing the other way). As for ratching up the intensity on chokes that's something I do as well, mainly because I don't want to burn my arms out unless I know there's less than a minute left. If your choke is applied properly you don't need to go full blast to make him go unconscious and if you have a bunch more matches that day your arms will probably not recover in time.

Dante fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Oct 10, 2011

# ¿ Oct 10, 2011 19:23

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

mobn posted:

I've been watching the budovideos coverage of ADCC, and it kinda sucked. I didn't expect much, but half the time they didn't know who was on what mats, or would switch away to shot of a guy getting his hand raised while someone was holding a submission on another mat. I can't wait for the DVDs to come out so we can get better footage.

yeah it was especially bad this year. While I realize it's hard to deal with simultaneous matches surely by this point budovideos can make sure that at least the commentators can see the score. Commentary in general was atrocious this time, half the time they were doing just play-by-play and the other time babbling and joking and distracting themselves from the actual matches. I guess Flannery kept Williams concentrated or something.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2011 01:05

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

man roger gracie isn't kidding around when he says his academy is different

http://vimeo.com/user7552022/submission

# ¿ Oct 26, 2011 02:40

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Subparr posted:

Maybe you can't read my posts. I'm saying there is no way for YOU to know what OTHER PEOPLE can execute and that you shouldn't assume things about people who aren't you. Making BLANKET statements about the effectiveness of ANY specific technique is just ignorant. That is the only point I've been trying to make. I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, but dealing in absolutes is just flat out incorrect.

this is dumb and wrong and certain techniques being more high-percentage is tautologically true in every sport please stop this nonsense

# ¿ Nov 8, 2011 18:03

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Who Gotch Ya posted:

I've already explained numerous times why "high percentage" is stupid so just take that as word now.

Everything done right at the right time is 100%

No it's not. Something being low percentage doesn't mean it's physically impossible it means that due to variety of factors (like setup time, ease of counters, positional control etc) you're on average going to have a lower success ratio. Similarly something being high percentage does not mean it's an invincible sequence of moves. Even if you remove the opponent from the question there are techniques that are far more efficient than others. In BJJ like in every other sport you have converged on a number of main positional postures and ways to transition in and out of them that are optimal, this is why high jumpers do the fosbury flop instead of straddle jumping like before. So for instance the reason you do the rear-naked choke instead of just grabbing around his throat with your hand and squeezing is because the RNC is a much more powerful choke and because it's much harder to defend.

Dante fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Nov 11, 2011

# ¿ Nov 11, 2011 04:19

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

nemoulette posted:

Yeah but the likeliness of them working is a matter of skill of whoever tries to do them. You can argue all day that there's some sort of objective measure of difficulty where, let's say, an achilles lock is easier than a kneebar or something, but it will be an exercise in futility.

due to sheer simple body mechanics a RNC is a higher percentage choke from the backmount than grabbing their throat with one hand. The reason we have a serious of complicated movements we call submissions instead of just trying to squeeze some guys arm until it pops is to find the optimal leverage and control while exploiting body mechanics, therefore some positions are better than others. This isn't a hard concept to grasp for anyone.

Who Gotch Ya posted:

When I attempt to finish an omoplata, I don't have to roll dice to see if it works. There isn't a set chance that it will work. If I do it right and prevent the defense, it's going to work.

You can't say that it will just magically fail because more people finish choke sleepers than omoplatas.

yeah okay the reason you're struggling with this is because your concept of probability is tied to the way it functions in games apparently

Dante fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Nov 11, 2011

# ¿ Nov 11, 2011 21:48

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Who Gotch Ya posted:

Are you talking to me or the people saying things are high percentage?

I'm not saying a gogo is high percentage, I'm saying NOTHING is ANY percentage because putting a probability or percentage on something as subjective as one man finishing another with any technique is loving impossible and ridiculous.

choking with a RNC from backmount is much more effective and higher percentage than grabbing his throat with your hand due to simple body mechanics and anyone is able to understand this, you can continue to deny this basic fact in your head but please stop making GBS threads up the thread

# ¿ Nov 12, 2011 00:18

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Who Gotch Ya posted:

"just grabbing his throat" is a stupid move. A carotid gogoplata from the back position is not a stupid move, it's an awesome one, and just as valid as choking a guy with your arms if you do it right with the proper control.

oh my, why is it a stupid move? Because it's inefficient in terms of leverage and easily countered? In comparison to what? The other more efficient and hard to defend chokes available from the same position like the RNC?

At this point this is just about you and your hangsup about the gogoplata

# ¿ Nov 12, 2011 00:31

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Nierbo posted:

Can someone elaborate on this? I thought kimuras were 90% about strength. Once you have the grip and position its not really using leverage in the same way an arm bar is. Or maybe it is, what the gently caress do I know. I'll ask here rather than googling it and reading yahoo answers.

westcoaster posted:

Hold the arm close to your body, like right on your chest, and rotate your entire body to finish it. You should only need to use your arms to secure your opponents arm and the rest is your core strength.

This is correct, you should glue your elbows to your body and rotate your entire torso not your arms. That's not the most important thing though, by far the most critical step to eliminating strength from their equation completely is to get 90 degrees perpendicular to them and put their fist in the middle of their back immediately. At that point it's their ability to do a tricep push behind their back versus your leg, rear end, back, arm and chest muscles if you're positioned correctly. Even a 98 pound guy is going to hold a powerlifter in place at that point (if the size difference is massive you might not be able to stop him from rolling over, but you can just roll with).

STORY TIME: Harris, one of the 12 first american black belts, used to roll with 50-60 people after seminars in the early days to build his reputation since he was old before the major tournaments got started outside of brazil. Invariably there would be some 20 year old massive wrestlers strategically waiting at the end of the queue who would want another roll if they got submitted fast. Harris, being relatively old and not recovering as fast, would get them in a kimura and put their hand in the middle of their back then hold them there for 3-4 minutes while they huffed and puffed and burned themselves out trying to escape the position before easily submitting them.

For some reason almost no one teaches how to finish the kimura correctly from the guard, which is why people keep struggling so much against big strong guys.

Dante fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Nov 12, 2011

# ¿ Nov 12, 2011 12:24

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

nemoulette posted:

I don't want to continue this dumb argument, but this is really the krux of the issue. I'm not of the opinion (and who says that you're correct anyway?) that this is precisely what "high percentage" refers to. The whole reason why I'm annoyed at the people calling cortx (and me by extension) sperglords is because "high percentage" is an incredibly dumb term to begin with. I'm not arguing that a banana split is an easier and more simple submission to pull off than armbars and I would never tell you that you shouldn't make armbars/triangles/RNCs your priority. It's just that "high percentage" is as a dumb concept as "p4p" is for rankings.

I'm pretty sure most of the arguing comes from some people not having a grasp of probability as a concept, stuff like "putting a probability or percentage on something as subjective as one man finishing another with any technique is loving impossible" and "when I attempt to finish an omoplata, I don't have to roll dice to see if it works. There isn't a set chance that it will work" kinda displays that. I think most people are more familiar with the coin flip/dice roll way of thinking about probability you get in computer games and not actually calculating the probability of an event. You can (and sociologists and actuaries do) put a percentage on most things, like what is the probability of you crashing your car, going to jail or dying based on a series of variables like ethnicity, residence, age etc.

fatherdog posted:

If I actually had the tapes of everything I would sit down and count up the ADCCs and mundials. It would be pretty fascinating number material.

Dante fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Nov 16, 2011

# ¿ Nov 16, 2011 19:15

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

BlindSite posted:

I had an interesting grapple the other day. I went down and trained with some guys who do pure self defense based stuff, bits from thai boxing, judo, wrestling, cranks, joint locks, like Krav Maga I suppose but refined by some guys who've got a mess of experience in various martial arts.

Interesting to approach guys who're trained to crank the poo poo out of whatever they get hold of with a BJJ guard looking for sweeps and triangles.

My neck is sore as gently caress and I'm covered in bruises from the grinding of elbows and knees in various positions but it was cool to go from a more sport mindset of playing back and fourth trying to bait an opponent to more of a mindset where you feel like someone is trying to kill you if you don't defend and attack properly.

I still triangled people like it was cool and hit some nice hip bump sweeps and guillotines from my guard, but yeah, very weird to grapple with people who's mindset was completely different. Good fun, I learned some nasty neck cranks.

I got a little showing of "real" self-defense grappling one time and it involved horrific unspeakable combo moves which made me very comfortable with BJJ being a pure sport.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2011 23:38

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

BlindSite posted:

Yeah I wouldn't want to train some of the poo poo they did week in and out, but at the same time it was kind of cool to see what works and what doesn't that I've learned if someone's trying to mess your poo poo up instead of win a match.

I don't really know to what extent you can actually train stuff like this without causing serious injury, I guess you can practice some simple moves but really there's only you and the four other psychopaths in the training session who've ever practiced counters to biting someones bicep to immobilize the muscle and stabbing your thumb in their eye socket. Realistically in a situation where you for some reason can't punch or run away you would just bounce the guy off concrete by throwing or doublelegging then back off, and if you absolutely had to incapacitate someone choke them unconscious because of legal reasons.

Basically if the situation is that you're walking in a favela and you spot terere running for you foaming at the mouth you should just get a gun and train with that instead.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2011 00:14

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

haha you werent kidding

quote:

I know I haven�t suffered at all in comparison to guys in Brazil. I�ve never literally starved. America is a great country, but our welfare system encourages laziness and should be eliminated. Poverty in America means you can still have an IPhone. It means you just have to eat at Burger King (because the cost/calorie ratio is so low) instead of Applebee�s. Poverty in Brazil means you literally starve.
...
If I don�t succeed at BJJ I can fall back on my engineering degree. I wish I didn�t have a plan-B. If you really want to succeed at something put your back against the wall. Put yourself in a situation where if you don�t succeed you�ll be broke and homeless and maybe you�ll die.

welloffwhitepeopleopinions.txt right here

# ¿ Dec 5, 2011 02:58

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# ¿ Apr 18, 2024 16:55

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

it's especially ironic because for the longest time the sport was dominated by people that came from the wealthier section of brazil. The people who actually can train two times a day for a non-spectator sport with no money in it. Surprisingly all these brazilian badasses that went abroad to start TV production companies or run tournaments named after themselves were in fact not living in the favelas.

Dante fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Dec 5, 2011

# ¿ Dec 5, 2011 21:32

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > Grappling: Grab their foot in a threatening manner, it doesn't cost you anything

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