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Young Freud posted:I really have to question why they bothered to follow that SOP here, when they pretty much announced to the world that it was happening. There was no need for deniability, since Putin and his shills were pretty much advertising it. They probably expected Turkey to wring their hands a bit, have NATO cluck their tongues and glare shame down their frail noses at the strong Russian bear, and stand by as Russia kept invading their airspace because all those Western powers are a bunch of stability- and peace-obsessed cyka who would rather let a strong manly judo-trained leader do as he pleases than sign off on defending themselves. Turns out Erdogan is just that much crazier than a shithouse rat and called Putin's bluff. Now Putin's the one who has to turn the other cheek because NATO is more or less calling it a good shoot.
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Nov 25, 2015 04:53
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Xandu posted:Out of curiosity, is possible that the Turkish planes could have fired while it was still in Turkish airspace?
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Nov 25, 2015 04:55
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Volkerball posted:Little green jets. heh. heh.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:07
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I went on russian social media. woops it's like the Munich rallies in there right now.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:17
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It's interesting looking back at documentaries made on Sinjar mountain before the offensive and being told how the peshmerga/Yazidis/PKK+ expected the fight to be. compared to what happened. (If you didn't watch it in June, VICE's Aris Roussinos on Sinjar and Mosul. WARNING: Yazidis talk about atrocities. Watch for kitty at 21:40 and stay to the end for Abu Rish, the old pesh that gives negative fucks.)
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Nov 25, 2015 05:17
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sparatuvs posted:I went on russian social media. woops lol. this got me looking at my favorite russian propagandists on twitter. here's ones profile picture now.  i take it that jet doesn't symbolize MH17. 
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Nov 25, 2015 06:00
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Using your MS Paint skills to edit a national flag .gif is the surest sign of patriotism.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:04
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Volkerball posted:lol. this got me looking at my favorite russian propagandists on twitter. here's ones profile picture now. Isn't the whole Bomber-as-peace-symbol thing used by backwards hicks here in the US to push some meth-addled version of right-wing nihilism?
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Nov 25, 2015 06:09
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FAUXTON posted:Isn't the whole Bomber-as-peace-symbol thing used by backwards hicks here in the US to push some meth-addled version of right-wing nihilism? It's a reference to the Russian passenger jet that was shot down in Egypt.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:24
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Volkerball posted:It's a reference to the Russian passenger jet that was shot down in Egypt. I'm talking about the usage over the past I don't know, 50 years, where it was used as a mccarthyite symbol of a desire to cleanse Eurasia of the Slavic menace through nuclear fire.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:49
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zeal posted:Ahem, I think you mean Glorious Liberation of Second Rome Ugh...Byzant was Orthodox...somewhere some one Russian nationalist is thinking this is a good idea.
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Nov 25, 2015 07:14
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goose fleet posted:So where's Fourth Rome? Holy Roman Empire?(though isnt that the third Rome?) Germany of course. 
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Nov 25, 2015 07:17
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I have a question I'd love a clear answer to. I keep seeing talk of Turkey supporting ISIS. What do people mean by this? Is this simply a case of people stretching Turkey's support for Salafi groups and their opposition to Kurds to mean they are actively supporting ISIS?
Wez fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 07:18
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They're buying oil from ISIS, which is the definition of materially supporting them.
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Nov 25, 2015 07:21
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Just how accurate is radar in determining whether a plane is flying within your borders or not? Like is there a +/- 1 mile margin of error? So theoretically you could be flying on the edge of a border (like the Turkish border) and radar within Turkey would pick you up and display you as being within the borders of Turkey and thus result in a shoot down? Or are modern radara super accurate?
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Nov 25, 2015 07:23
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Wez posted:I have a question I'd love a clear answer to. I keep seeing talk of Turkey supporting ISIS. What do people mean by this? Is this simply a case people stretching Turkey's support for Salafi groups and their opposition to Kurds to mean they are actively supporting ISIS? Pretty sure Turkey has been taking military action against certain Kurdish groups while those groups are fighting against Daesh, suggesting that Turkey and Daesh have a common enemy in, say, the PKK. E: also buying oil from them is literally bankrolling their atrocities.
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Nov 25, 2015 07:24
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Memento posted:They're buying oil from ISIS, which is the definition of materially supporting them. I thought the Syrian regime was buying oil from them too?
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Nov 25, 2015 07:24
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Charliegrs posted:I thought the Syrian regime was buying oil from them too? Uh, Daesh and Assad are also in a war against a lot of the same groups. Charliegrs posted:Just how accurate is radar in determining whether a plane is flying within your borders or not? Like is there a +/- 1 mile margin of error? So theoretically you could be flying on the edge of a border (like the Turkish border) and radar within Turkey would pick you up and display you as being within the borders of Turkey and thus result in a shoot down? Or are modern radara super accurate? Modern radars are in fact that accurate. Do you seriously think civilian air traffic controllers work with a +- 1 NM margin of error or do you think that military radar designed to accurately depict the range, heading, and altitude of aircraft is somehow going to be less accurate than the radar at any airport despite being used to direct supersonic intercept sorties? I can't imagine any other scenario in which that question would be posed in good faith so help me out a little here. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 07:26
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Also until the Kurds shut down almost all of it, the Turkish border was basically the highway to Raqqa for international shitheads who wanted to behead some fools on video. And don't forget the fact that once the Kurds began making serious gains against ISIS, Erdogan decided it was the perfect time to reach across his borders and start loving with them. He's a piece of poo poo who likes to play "Who, me?" which makes it hilarious when he picks a fight with the only major world leader even better at doing that poo poo. Erdogan and Putin deserve each other, let 'em bluster and posture as long as they like, no matter who loses we win.
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Nov 25, 2015 07:30
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Wez posted:I have a question I'd love a clear answer to. I keep seeing talk of Turkey supporting ISIS. What do people mean by this? Is this simply a case people stretching Turkey's support for Salafi groups and their opposition to Kurds to mean they are actively supporting ISIS? Yes.
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Nov 25, 2015 07:33
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FAUXTON posted:I'm talking about the usage over the past I don't know, 50 years, where it was used as a mccarthyite symbol of a desire to cleanse Eurasia of the Slavic menace through nuclear fire. 
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Nov 25, 2015 07:39
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Just noticed that the Syrian Turkmen Assembly use the double headed eagle of the Seljuks (actually an older pagan symbol) in their imagery. And sky blue (also associated with the Seljuks).  e: This is not really related to anything, but it's kind of cool to me atleast. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 08:48
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Randarkman posted:Just noticed that the Syrian Turkmen Assembly use the double headed eagle of the Seljuks (actually an older pagan symbol) in their imagery. And sky blue (also associated with the Seljuks). Pagan or not that flag is pretty drat killer.
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Nov 25, 2015 09:15
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FAUXTON posted:Pagan or not that flag is pretty drat killer. Looks like the flag for South Novorossiya.
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Nov 25, 2015 09:20
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CeeJee posted:Looks like the flag for South Novorossiya. Ain't no Zheleznogorsk flag though.
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Nov 25, 2015 09:26
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FAUXTON posted:Ain't no Zheleznogorsk flag though. 
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Nov 25, 2015 09:28
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Randarkman posted:Just noticed that the Syrian Turkmen Assembly use the double headed eagle of the Seljuks (actually an older pagan symbol) in their imagery. And sky blue (also associated with the Seljuks). That's a double-headed chicken, look at that those caruncles. Also it has a bow on its head. Very cute. kalstrams posted:Indeed. That's the tiniest bear I've ever seen.
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Nov 25, 2015 09:39
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Cat Mattress posted:That's a double-headed chicken, look at that those caruncles. Also it has a bow on its head. Very cute. Yeah but what he lacks in size he makes up for in power. Lookit him tearing that nucleus open like it was full of Twinkies.
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Nov 25, 2015 09:41
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Promontory posted:Considering the wealth of videos supposedly depicting today's events, I have a question: is there a resource listing all the different logos Syrian rebel groups have on their videos? Googling only netted me a creepy website from 2013 listing the 'faces of terrorists.' This is from a while back, but I'm gonna get started on this right now and put as many as I can find/identify on it. Should have it done in a few hours but don't quote me on that/rely on me not getting lazy and falling asleep. Heh. Heh.
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Nov 25, 2015 09:56
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Charliegrs posted:Just how accurate is radar in determining whether a plane is flying within your borders or not? Like is there a +/- 1 mile margin of error? So theoretically you could be flying on the edge of a border (like the Turkish border) and radar within Turkey would pick you up and display you as being within the borders of Turkey and thus result in a shoot down? Or are modern radara super accurate? The range accuracy and resolution of a radar depends on a lot of things, but it's generally in the ballpark of at least 10-40 meters for the kind of radars fighter aircraft carry. Cruising speed for a jet is around 250 meters per second, so the accuracy of radar is moot when talking about whether or not a jet was over the border.
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Nov 25, 2015 09:56
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Russia firing cruise missiles at those turkmen villages apparently. Aggressive-passive-aggressiveness?
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Nov 25, 2015 10:55
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I'm sure I missed a few, but these were the ones I'd seen/could find logos for: Let me know if you see any errors or find any I missed.
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Nov 25, 2015 11:05
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So for some reason I'm on Anonymous's ISIS hit list, and loads of journalists are emailing me to ask why: http://pastebin.com/HXjgGiHp There's also 195 hashtag search URLs included on that list, so it all seems a bit slapdash.
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Nov 25, 2015 11:08
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Brown Moses posted:So for some reason I'm on Anonymous's ISIS hit list, and loads of journalists are emailing me to ask why: Wait until RT gets a load of this.
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Nov 25, 2015 11:22
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Wait, so how does Russia come out of this looking like the bad guys? They basically just exposed the US/NATO on all fronts. They used the universal villains(ISIS) as a reason to go give their ally (Assad) some backup. They were more successful than NATO in their bombing campaign against ISIS. They exposed NATO(and NATO countries ally's) support of ISIS. They were not the initial aggressor. Not to mention the chemical weapons disarming that Russia helped broker a couple of years back, they seem to be winning the PR war by a large margin. Now that winter is approaching and Russia has a lock on natural gas in the region, they are going to get to impose their own 'sanctions" and still not look like a villain to most of the world. They played it brilliantly. I think NATO has to fold here. There is no way they can escalate and not start a giant shitstorm. I think ultimately NATO falls back and lets Russia and Iran deal with the situation. Russia has just sent in ground troops so they are all in at this point. . Maybe this was NATO's plan all along?
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Nov 25, 2015 11:36
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Brown Moses posted:So for some reason I'm on Anonymous's ISIS hit list, and loads of journalists are emailing me to ask why: Obviously everyone who uses #politics or #history is a member of Daesh. pkay posted:Wait, so how does Russia come out of this looking like the bad guys? They basically just exposed the US/NATO on all fronts. They used the universal villains(ISIS) as a reason to go give their ally (Assad) some backup. They were more successful than NATO in their bombing campaign against ISIS. They exposed NATO(and NATO countries ally's) support of ISIS. They were not the initial aggressor. Not to mention the chemical weapons disarming that Russia helped broker a couple of years back, they seem to be winning the PR war by a large margin. Now that winter is approaching and Russia has a lock on natural gas in the region, they are going to get to impose their own 'sanctions" and still not look like a villain to most of the world. They played it brilliantly. I think NATO has to fold here. There is no way they can escalate and not start a giant shitstorm. I think ultimately NATO falls back and lets Russia and Iran deal with the situation. Russia has just sent in ground troops so they are all in at this point. . Maybe this was NATO's plan all along? In order: they repeatedly violated Turkish airspace and were warned. (Erdogan is still an rear end in a top hat, though.) No, they didn't. It was just a pretext. That's what they claim, but that's true only in their claims; they have bombed mostly groups that weren't Daesh. NATO as a whole doesn't support Daesh; only Turkey does. The initial aggressor is Assad, who they are backing; unless you mean in this instance of a plane getting shot down, then they're still the initial aggressor due to them penetrating Turkish air space. Assad is still using chemical weapons, so the disarming was partial at best, but you're right that they have very good PR thanks to Russian media being largely state-owned and closely monitored and thanks to having troll factories to help with the age old practice of maskirovka. Given the state of Russia's finance, they need to sell this gas more than Turkey needs to buy it. I don't think this was brilliant in any way, for any of the concerned parties. NATO doesn't have to fold, they don't have to do anything. It's not going to escalate further. If Russia and Iran deal with the situation, we'll have a genocide in Syria until all opponents to Assad are dead, except Daesh who needs to be kept around so as to claim Assad is the only alternative to terrorism. If Russia wants to hemorrhage resources in Syria, all the better for Ukraine, so you might be onto something here. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 11:38
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pkay posted:Wait, so how does Russia come out of this looking like the bad guys? They basically just exposed the US/NATO on all fronts. They used the universal villains(ISIS) as a reason to go give their ally (Assad) some backup. They were more successful than NATO in their bombing campaign against ISIS. They exposed NATO(and NATO countries ally's) support of ISIS. They were not the initial aggressor. Not to mention the chemical weapons disarming that Russia helped broker a couple of years back, they seem to be winning the PR war by a large margin. Now that winter is approaching and Russia has a lock on natural gas in the region, they are going to get to impose their own 'sanctions" and still not look like a villain to most of the world. They played it brilliantly. I think NATO has to fold here. There is no way they can escalate and not start a giant shitstorm. I think ultimately NATO falls back and lets Russia and Iran deal with the situation. Russia has just sent in ground troops so they are all in at this point. . Maybe this was NATO's plan all along? They're bombing civilians and propping up a mass murderer? e: nvm I saw what you meant, disregard. Do you have source on the ground troops?
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Nov 25, 2015 11:43
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So these Turkmen who shot the Russian pilots and chopter, how come they have access to AA guns? Aren't these guys supposed to be primitive nomads or something?
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Nov 25, 2015 11:52
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Elias_Maluco posted:So these Turkmen who shot the Russian pilots and chopter, how come they have access to AA guns? Aren't these guys supposed to be primitive nomads or something? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Turkmen_Brigades
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Nov 25, 2015 11:53
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Cat Mattress posted:Obviously everyone who uses #politics or #history is a member of Daesh. Do you have a source on Assad still using chemical weapons?
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Nov 25, 2015 11:57
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