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etalian posted:Might as well have maintained the status quo instead of going into scary unknown territory. My boss is Israeli, so he didn't exactly share my enthusiasm when were talking about Gaddafi today. He's definitely pro-status quo. I tried to argue that security based on one man being able to strong-arm an entire population isn't really security (see: Egypt), but he wasn't having it. I didn't feel like pressing the point further given that he writes my checks. He did concede that a man who outright trained and supported terrorists (Black September/Lockerbie) is better off gone though. Revolutions are messy, and it's hard to argue that a power vacuum and possible civil war is worthwhile in every situation. Still, dictatorship is bad for long-term stability, and all it will do in the end is create more radicals of any stripe. future ghost fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Oct 21, 2011 |
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Oct 21, 2011 00:09
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I hope that Gaddafi's death breathes new life into the Arab spring. I hope that it sends a message to the oppressors and to the world. Seeing a man like Gaddafi killed, a man who has for 40 years ruled without contest, is amazing. Even just a year ago nobody would have predicted this. It was unthinkable. I hope that Gaddafi's death rattles the bones of the Assad's and Saleh's of the world. I hope that this revolutionary tide continues to rise. I hope that this will bring dictators out of their illusion of invincibility.
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Oct 21, 2011 00:13
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grumperfish posted:My boss is Israeli, so he didn't exactly share my enthusiasm when were talking about Gaddafi today. He's definitely pro-status quo. I tried to argue that security based on one man being able to strong-arm an entire population isn't really security (see: Egypt), but he wasn't having it. It more because dicks such Mubarak made political agreements with Israel and once a revolution takes over there's no guarantee that past agreements will fly with the new populist government.
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Oct 21, 2011 00:24
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ThePutty posted:Hm, makes sense. What else can possibly be done though? Surely they're not going to just let Assad go his way and utterly rape everything in his nation until it's basically the Middle Eastern North Korea. Unfortunately this is probably exactly what will happen. Realpolitik is a bitch.
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Oct 21, 2011 00:50
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etalian posted:It more because dicks such Mubarak made political agreements with Israel and once a revolution takes over there's no guarantee that past agreements will fly with the new populist government. I agree that that's a huge (and worrying, given the attack on the embassy) part of it, but his reasoning was that "they don't understand democracy so they need a dictator to stomp on them" (his words).
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Oct 21, 2011 00:50
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While giving him over to the ICC would have been preferable I can't say I feel the least bit bad about what happened to him. I'm sure it's very easy to be all  "nobody deserves to be executed", while you safely sit behind your computer screens in the first world, having never experienced any real oppression in your life. If any of you whiners had ever experienced anything of the sort that the rebels have all of your life, I'm not confident that you wouldn't be tempted to shoot that very evil man in the face. grumperfish posted:I agree that that's a huge (and worrying, given the attack on the embassy) part of it, but his reasoning was that "they don't understand democracy so they need a dictator to stomp on them" (his words).
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Oct 21, 2011 00:54
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Casimir Radon posted:If any of you whiners had ever experienced anything of the sort that the rebels have all of your life, I'm not confident that you wouldn't be tempted to shoot that very evil man in the face. Yup he pretty much deserved the Mussolini treatment.
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Oct 21, 2011 01:09
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The rhetoric I'm seeing among the paulistas in my FB is that Gaddahfi was killed because he Knew Too Much about the European Bankers. Does anyone know where the poo poo this comes from, or is it because the European Bankers are responsible for everything bad, including my hangnails?
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Oct 21, 2011 01:20
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What, so his own bodyguards shot him, at least the ones in the legs and back? I have to wonder if that was accidental, if they were under orders, or they just got sick of him and switched sides at the last minute. Nessus posted:The rhetoric I'm seeing among the paulistas in my FB is that Gaddahfi was killed because he Knew Too Much about the European Bankers. Does anyone know where the poo poo this comes from, or is it because the European Bankers are responsible for everything bad, including my hangnails? The quickest way to defuse that bullshit is connect European Bankers to the Jews.
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Oct 21, 2011 01:29
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Young Freud posted:I have to wonder if that was accidental, if they were under orders, or they just got sick of him and switched sides at the last minute. Well it would be a convincing way to show you switched sides.
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Oct 21, 2011 01:30
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did anyone notice Gaddafi was wearing a bra when he was dragged off the truck to be executed?
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Oct 21, 2011 01:31
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Young Freud posted:What, so his own bodyguards shot him, at least the ones in the legs and back?  "Holy poo poo! A bunch of really loving angry people with guns are coming to kill me!" "Wait..... they want the guy I'm hired to protect!"   Hey guys, I got him for you! We're cool, right? Right?
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Oct 21, 2011 01:38
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duck hunt posted:I hope that Gaddafi's death breathes new life into the Arab spring. I hope that it sends a message to the oppressors and to the world. Seeing a man like Gaddafi killed, a man who has for 40 years ruled without contest, is amazing. Even just a year ago nobody would have predicted this. It was unthinkable. I hope that Gaddafi's death rattles the bones of the Assad's and Saleh's of the world. I hope that this revolutionary tide continues to rise. I hope that this will bring dictators out of their illusion of invincibility. I hope the arab spring crosses over to the western world and they overthrow dictators operating under the guise of democracy and capitalism.
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Oct 21, 2011 01:42
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Young Freud posted:What, so his own bodyguards shot him, at least the ones in the legs and back?
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Oct 21, 2011 01:45
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:I hope the arab spring crosses over to the western world and they overthrow dictators operating under the guise of democracy and capitalism. We do that every 4-8 years on average.
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Oct 21, 2011 01:47
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So, what's next? Kurdistan issues are heating up. What happens if Turkey/Iraq light on fire? Assad may or may not  Syria is shaping into a civil war as the tribesmen and deserters begin to coalesce. Iran's in lockdown and the Ayatollahs are talking about throwing away even the figleaf of democracy... though there are rumors the Quds are controlling the Ayatollahs.
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Oct 21, 2011 01:51
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mr. nazi posted:We do that every 4-8 years on average. I said dictators, not figureheads.
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Oct 21, 2011 01:54
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Allahu Akbar The bravery that the citizens of Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain, Libya, and Syria (and others) have demonstrated over the past months has been extraordinary. The case of Libya is an especially moving one. The Libyan civilians (engineers, taxi drivers, cooks, etc.) took up arms and, with neither training nor adequate weaponry, rushed into AA guns and other heavy weapons knowing that they would most likely be killed trying to liberate their nation. I wonder how much of this fearlessness is a result of the concept of martyrdom. Probably a good deal, as I cannot think of an example of such in the West more recent than the Spanish Civil War. In any case, I believe that the ongoing uprisings in Yemen and Syria will be bolstered by the death of Qaddafi, just as the Egyptians were bolstered by the success of the Tunisians. His death will also impact the calculations of the despots in the region. They will now see that there are ultimately only two choices for themselves, either the Tunisian/Egyptian model or the Libyan model. Even if they manage to hold onto power in the short term, the jig is effectively up for them. Unfortunately, I foresee the remaining depots clinging to power until a civil war removes them. Sadly, I see little hope for the Bahrainis, as that tyrant has the full military and political support of the Saudis as well as the other Gulf dictatorships, not to mention that their movement can easily be labeled an Iranian plot. The USA is also complicit in the brutal repression of the Bahraini movement. Jailing doctors for 10 years just because they treated protesters is a pretty good indication that you have no legitimacy as a "government" left.
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Oct 21, 2011 01:54
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Warcabbit posted:Iran's in lockdown and the Ayatollahs are talking about throwing away even the figleaf of democracy
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Oct 21, 2011 01:59
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Chortles posted:Link/source on this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932010_Iranian_election_protests More directly, this quote:Iran could do away with the post of a directly elected president, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Sunday, in what might be a warning to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and possible successors not to overstep the executive's limited powers. az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Oct 21, 2011 |
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Oct 21, 2011 02:03
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Perhaps the greatest news to come out of Iran this year were the accusations that waterfights started by Iranian youth were part of a Western conspiracy to undermine velayet-e-faqih.
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Oct 21, 2011 02:06
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:I hope the arab spring crosses over to the western world and they overthrow dictators operating under the guise of democracy and capitalism. It already has, Occupy Wall Street was pretty much inspired by the "Yes we can" and success against all odds.
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Oct 21, 2011 02:06
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etalian posted:It already has, Occupy Wall Street was pretty much inspired by the "Yes we can" and success against all odds. Oh boy I can't wait till we get our own SCAF!
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Oct 21, 2011 02:09
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etalian posted:It already has, Occupy Wall Street was pretty much inspired by the "Yes we can" and success against all odds. Just curious, has Zucotti Park and its environs been relabeled as "Freedom Square" (yet)?. Faux News would have a field day with this, probably cite it as proof of Obama's plan to institute sharia law in the USA.
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Oct 21, 2011 02:15
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Warcabbit posted:So, what's next? Kurdistan issues are heating up. What happens if Turkey/Iraq light on fire?
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Oct 21, 2011 02:18
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etalian posted:Well the US policy especially has been pretty much "The devil we know" This isn't just US policy, it's the policy of every large "empire", or even every single sovereign nation with any sense in history, ever.
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Oct 21, 2011 02:50
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The Fifth Estate just did their little coverage on Qadafhi's death (and, I gotta say, they got this package together pretty loving fast). It'll likely be out online in a few days. Also, it's really funny to see Obama shaking hands with this guy, juxtaposed with him going "Other nations can stand by while atrocities happen. Not America."
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Oct 21, 2011 02:52
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Axelgear posted:Also, it's really funny to see Obama shaking hands with this guy, juxtaposed with him going "Other nations can stand by while atrocities happen. Not America." But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game, oh yeah.
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Oct 21, 2011 02:56
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I wonder if Caro is still alive, and what he will do next?
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Oct 21, 2011 03:02
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Warcabbit posted:So, what's next? Kurdistan issues are heating up. What happens if Turkey/Iraq light on fire? I wish I could find the paper I wrote on the issues facing a Free Kurdistan. It was my senior thesis and my presentation had tons of pictures of Iraqi Kurdistan because I spent some time there. I don't think Turkey is going to allow them to gain any ground though.
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Oct 21, 2011 03:13
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Dilettante. posted:I wonder if Caro is still alive, and what he will do next? For all we know he found a wounded Ghaddafi in the back of a truck and shot him.
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Oct 21, 2011 03:41
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At least the quick justice saved the world from Ghaddafi going into exile and using his billions of dollars in stolen money to become a world famous fashion designer.
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Oct 21, 2011 04:02
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etalian posted:At least the quick justice saved the world from Ghaddafi going into exile and using his billions of dollars in stolen money to become a world famous fashion designer. Smells like a sitcom vehicle for Carlos Mencia where he plays each member of an overweight family.
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Oct 21, 2011 04:17
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Fiend posted:Smells like a sitcom vehicle for Carlos Mencia where he plays each member of an overweight family. It' Always Sunny at the French Riviera
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Oct 21, 2011 04:25
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القذافي مصاصة من ديكس ميت الحمد لله
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Oct 21, 2011 04:29
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Blackpolefun posted:القذافي مصاصة من ديكس ميت الحمد لله Cute. Work on some pronouns, though.
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Oct 21, 2011 04:59
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SoroScrew
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Blackpolefun posted:القذافي مصاصة من ديكس ميت الحمد لله القذافي مشكوك الذوق في الملابس. مايكل مور هو الدهون.
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Oct 21, 2011 05:02
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أستطيع أن تعاطي جدا مترجم جوجل.
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Oct 21, 2011 05:35
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الخروج
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Oct 21, 2011 05:37
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Nenonen posted:الخروج ها صوت يعبر عن العجب But seriously. We'll be getting solid details on his death soon? Within a week, perchance?
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Oct 21, 2011 05:49
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