Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Zeroisanumber posted:

I thought that Khamis was killed trying to run a NTC checkpoint, found charred black in a car filled with cash and dead assholes in nice suits.

It's not 100% confirmed, when Al Rai news started saying it was true I started to think it was a ruse so he could escape the country. For me no body means no confirmation, which worked out well in the case of Gaddafi snr.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 16:16

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# ? Jul 14, 2025 18:54

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Ultras Lazio posted:

Catching up on a few points here�

Allah Akbar is normal, they all say that, they all shout that. Oppressed and oppressors. I wouldn�t start thinking of Islamists taking over because of that.
Having heard that chant 5 times a day for 5 months from my Moroccan Riad next to a mosque, I just changed it into �Allah�s gone to the bar� and asked my friend to bring me back a cappuccino and two take away croissants on his way back from his prayers. He laughs, I laugh. We eat cous cous on Friday, I do spaghetti amatriciana every Sunday. (hate to have to use Turkey but hei)

NATO can�t fight in multiple theatres in this economy, bombs costs like small schools nowadays. One war at the time please. Next, actually, might be Algeria. Also, like many have said, geo-politically Siria and Yemen are no Libia�however if more blood is shed there, I do expect NATO intervention�.especially because�.

Islamists and secular Muslims alike are actually thankful to NATO in Libia. Also, Lybia is no Iraq and my bet is that actually, things will go rather smooth there. This has the potential to be a real step change in West-Muslim world relationship (ironically, the Libia example could be encouraged BY Secular Muslims and Islamists alike in Siria etc)

The Mussolini treatment and the treatment of Fascists had something to do with the N.A.R. / Terza Posizione / Ordine Nuovo / Avanguardia Nazionale terrorism that followed all the way to the mid 1980s. Thousands of Fascists were massacred in the last days of the war and after. Fascist sentiment survived that and drew strength from that so much that a Fascist/Neo-Fascist party in Italy has been present ever since and counting votes in the millions bracket.

�I hope the Arab spring crosses over to the western world and they overthrow dictators operating under the guise of democracy and capitalism.�
Nah, we got elections for that. If you can�t convince voters of your case, give up your wet dreams of forcing issues violently.

Oh and�Libyans are not �brown� and by the looks of it, a lot of �brown� were actually Gheddafi body guards. �Browns� did not have a great time in this conflict. I said brown 3 times in one sentence, not bad for someone that really hates that term.

Brown Moses, stay with your daughter and partner for a few days and think of nothing else, I am a parent myself; don�t even miss a nano-second of what is happening in your life. Believe me, it�s the best news you can follow at the moment. Oh and yes, I agree �Spring� would be a great name. Or alternatively �Vittoria�.

I agree with all of this (except the likelihood of further interventions) but especially the last part. What I would clarify through is that "brown" is not simply a distinction of skin color it's a racial perception of some sort of idealized form of "Arab". No it doesn't make sense, but it doesn't really have to to be a factor in judgement.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 17:04

Mr. Self Destruct: Jan 1, 2008; lary

BeigeJacket posted:

BBC, AJ, etc have reporters who, generally speaking, adhere to journalistic code of ethics

BBC is literally a state apparatus and Al Jazeera is bankrolled by a vicious dictator in his own right, Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani, whose country is home to abhorrent mass slavery, human trafficking and a complete lack of meaningful human rights as well bottom of the barrel economic equality.

Media in general is increasingly concentrated and tied to non-media corporate interests all of which are incredibly unworthy of trust and beholden to the political and economic interests of those at their helms, there is no requirement for meaningful Actual Conspiratorial Collusion when the same results are achieved from a soft, voluntary approach whereby all parties have more or less the same bias without any intervention on any Evil Scheming Party's part. Being skeptical of the media has absolutely nothing to do with conspiracy theories and everything to do with institutional analysis, which deals far less with absolutes and presupposes no such improvable ridiculous paranoiac speculation that genuine conspiracy theories rely on. Putting media critics and conspiracy theorists in the same boat is intellectually dishonest and cowardly.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 17:59

RobattoJesus: Aug 13, 2002

Mr. Self Destruct posted:

BBC is literally a state apparatus.

Sure it's a state apparatus, but so are schools (not to be confused with ideological state apparatus, which are the bad ones). It's also not directly funded by the government and instead by a "subscription" that every Briton with a TV must pay. Sure the government has occasionally stepped in to control the BBC, but almost always through the courts with super injunctions and whatnot, not with the clandestine influence of government lizard people (unlesssss..... :tinfoil:

)

Sure it's not perfect, but by not having advertisers I'd trust them a whole lot more than any of the American news agencies.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 18:18

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009

Mr. Self Destruct posted:

Being skeptical of the media

should not mean that one sucks up anything that people like Lizzie Phelan vomit into the internet. There is need for honest, bona fide academic media criticism, but it's a very different thing from retards saying that the mainstream media cannot be trusted on anything, but hey here's this website that says USA now owns all of Libyan oil reserves must be true

# ? Oct 21, 2011 18:27

Stoatbringer: Sep 15, 2004; naw, you love it you little ho-bot

bleedbackwards posted:

Definitely looks like he was shot in the head prior to death.

Hmm.. Could there be a connection?

# ? Oct 21, 2011 18:30

Mr. Self Destruct: Jan 1, 2008; lary

In general I agree that the lack of advertisers gives them a huge advantage in reliability, but when it comes to international affairs such as this where the British government has enormous stakes that extra credibility increasingly often diffuses in favour of supporting official narrative. American news agencies are far worse because they require no pressure whatsoever to propagandize because of their being beholden to said advertisers.

In actual news, I'm pretty surprised to see Julian Assange actually calling out the intervention as being a US/Euro takeover of the country and its resources and a co-option of the arab spring. I expected him to bend or be silent on this issue, kudos to the man for not looking like an asset or shill on this issue.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 18:30

BeigeJacket: Jul 21, 2005

Mr. Self Destruct posted:

In general I agree that the lack of advertisers gives them a huge advantage in reliability, but when it comes to international affairs such as this where the British government has enormous stakes that extra credibility increasingly often diffuses in favour of supporting official narrative. American news agencies are far worse because they require no pressure whatsoever to propagandize because of their being beholden to said advertisers.

In actual news, I'm pretty surprised to see Julian Assange actually calling out the intervention as being a US/Euro takeover of the country and its resources and a co-option of the arab spring. I expected him to bend or be silent on this issue, kudos to the man for not looking like an asset or shill on this issue.

You do realise that the BBC is has it's own charter and code of practice (including some fairly strict rules on impartiality) and that they frequently criticize the government? (look at the WMD mess with Andrew Gilligan). I'm not saying they're perfect, but to paint them as the mouthpiece of the British governement is misleading.

Why are you surprised at Assange saying what he said exactly? It seems no different from his previous positions.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 18:51

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Mr. Self Destruct posted:

In actual news, I'm pretty surprised to see Julian Assange actually calling out the intervention as being a US/Euro takeover of the country and its resources and a co-option of the arab spring. I expected him to bend or be silent on this issue, kudos to the man for not looking like an asset or shill on this issue.

I think he had nothing to lose on that front anyway...

The co-option bit is interesting though, in light of the Rolling Stone article about SECSTATE Clinton being rebuffed by Egyptian youth groups being a catalyst for intervention (seeing the US "shut out" in Egypt and wanting to avoid that in Libya).

# ? Oct 21, 2011 18:55

VanSandman: Feb 16, 2011; SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

I wish this thread was more about the news coming out of the Arab Spring than arguing over how Gaddafi was killed. The important thing is that he's dead. How isn't so much of an issue, since Libya will finally be able to properly move forward into whatever they're going to be. Here's hoping it isn't a strongman again!

# ? Oct 21, 2011 18:57

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Reaction to Gaddafi's death in Egypt is interesting, most people are happy the war in Libya looks like it's coming to an end, but they're also very much against how Gaddafi was killed, calling those who did so "barbaric" and saying that he deserved a fair trial and a clean death. It's markedly different from most western publications' opinions.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 18:59

RobattoJesus: Aug 13, 2002

Mr. Self Destruct posted:

In general I agree that the lack of advertisers gives them a huge advantage in reliability, but when it comes to international affairs such as this where the British government has enormous stakes that extra credibility increasingly often diffuses in favour of supporting official narrative.

True. I guess the one flaw with the BBC is that they are going to be biased by national pride and the patriotism of the people who pay their licenses that wouldn't be too pleased if Britain was painted as the bad guys.

Maybe we need a World Broadcasting Corporation.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 19:06

Blimpkin: Dec 28, 2003

These videos really amaze me.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 19:17

Wild Cat Willie: Jun 26, 2011

Mr. Self Destruct posted:

BBC is literally a state apparatus and Al Jazeera is bankrolled by a vicious dictator in his own right, Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani, whose country is home to abhorrent mass slavery, human trafficking and a complete lack of meaningful human rights as well bottom of the barrel economic equality.

Media in general is increasingly concentrated and tied to non-media corporate interests all of which are incredibly unworthy of trust and beholden to the political and economic interests of those at their helms, there is no requirement for meaningful Actual Conspiratorial Collusion when the same results are achieved from a soft, voluntary approach whereby all parties have more or less the same bias without any intervention on any Evil Scheming Party's part. Being skeptical of the media has absolutely nothing to do with conspiracy theories and everything to do with institutional analysis, which deals far less with absolutes and presupposes no such improvable ridiculous paranoiac speculation that genuine conspiracy theories rely on. Putting media critics and conspiracy theorists in the same boat is intellectually dishonest and cowardly.

It's funded by a sheik, but from what I've seen Al Jazeera really hasn't failed me once from when I started watching it. I should know, I come from loving Australia where Gaddafi's death wasn't even the top story anywhere, and if you ask any Australian who has watched TV news and not gone on the internet about Libya they know gently caress all and probably think that "It'll just be like Iraq! :downs:

". That, and everybody seems to think all Arabs are terrorists here because of our poo poo media preferring to report on fashion and celebrities and politicians not saluting the loving Queen properly over real world events that are you know, important and actual news.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 19:30

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

de_dust2 posted:

Check out these pictures:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29405.htm
Very clean cut rebels, with nice clothing and weapons. Wonder where they got that stuff..

I see Kalashnikovs, FN-FAL Rifles, 14.5mm Machineguns and Anti-Aircraft Guns as well as RPG-7's and older Soviet tanks - fixtures of 2nd and 3rd world militaries.

I would imagine every one of those weapons seen there was taken from the loyalist forces (although the weapons provided by Qatar may be similar in some regards).

# ? Oct 21, 2011 19:37

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Ham posted:

Reaction to Gaddafi's death in Egypt is interesting, most people are happy the war in Libya looks like it's coming to an end, but they're also very much against how Gaddafi was killed, calling those who did so "barbaric" and saying that he deserved a fair trial and a clean death. It's markedly different from most western publications' opinions.

In fairness, it sounds like one of the Libyan captors realized as much ("we need him alive!") but that he didn't get through to the rest of them.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 20:00

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Meanwhile in Bahrain, A heart-wrenching Audio account of a medical professor describing her imprisonment and torture.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 20:07

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

RobattoJesus posted:

Sure it's a state apparatus, but so are schools (not to be confused with ideological state apparatus, which are the bad ones). It's also not directly funded by the government and instead by a "subscription" that every Briton with a TV must pay. Sure the government has occasionally stepped in to control the BBC, but almost always through the courts with super injunctions and whatnot, not with the clandestine influence of government lizard people (unlesssss..... )

Sure it's not perfect, but by not having advertisers I'd trust them a whole lot more than any of the American news agencies.

And certainly better overall than your standard lovely media conglomerate.

Al-Saqr posted:

Meanwhile in Bahrain, A heart-wrenching Audio account of a medical professor describing her imprisonment and torture.

And Bahrain gets extra dick points for arresting hospital staff for the crime of treating badly injured protesters.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 20:19

J.theYellow: May 7, 2003; Slippery Tilde

Can we finally agree that the decision not to release the OBL death photos were utterly and entirely justified?

Libyans who might become thrust onto the world stage after this, possibly in positions of power, are going to be associated with these images of holding down a bloodied and broken old man who got dragged out of a hole, begging for his life, then shot in the head and made to lie in state in a loving walk-in cooler, while hooligans with cell phones hover, jabber and take pictures.

This is Libya's immediate future.

This is what revolution means.

Bloody, barbaric death and abandon.

Just be glad it's not you on camera.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 20:52

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

J.theYellow posted:

Libyans who might become thrust onto the world stage after this, possibly in positions of power, are going to be associated with these images of holding down a bloodied and broken old man who got dragged out of a hole, begging for his life, then shot in the head and made to lie in state in a loving walk-in cooler, while hooligans with cell phones hover, jabber and take pictures.

This is Libya's immediate future.

This is what revolution means.

Bloody, barbaric death and abandon.

Just be glad it's not you on camera.

They paid the price for starting a revolution against all odds, against a bloodthirsty leader who managed to cleverly hoodwink the West into thinking he had changed his ways.

A pathetic, unheroic death is exactly what Gaddafi's deserved after destroying thousands of lives along with ordering the rape and torture of numerous unarmed civilians.

It's the perfect warning for cruel leaders who think they can rule forever and never have to face the consequences of their actions.

The only tragedy is with him gone there's no one else qualified to pass on the important knowledge and techniques of Bunga Bunga to the leaders of the world.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 21:03

Wild Cat Willie: Jun 26, 2011

etalian posted:

They paid the price for starting a revolution against all odds, against a bloodthirsty leader who managed to cleverly hoodwink the West into thinking he had changed his ways.

A pathetic, unheroic death is exactly what Gaddafi's deserved after destroying thousands of lives along with ordering the rape and torture of numerous unarmed civilians.

It's the perfect warning for cruel leaders who think they can rule forever and never have to face the consequences of their actions.

The only tragedy is with him gone there's no one else qualified to pass on the important knowledge and techniques of Bunga Bunga to the leaders of the world.

And nobody will ever have a fashion sense like Gaddafi had. :gonk:

# ? Oct 21, 2011 21:15

Stoatbringer: Sep 15, 2004; naw, you love it you little ho-bot

J.theYellow posted:

This is what revolution means.

Bloody, barbaric death and abandon.

The way he's been treating the people for the last 40 years, it should really come as no surprise.

Dictators rarely have happy endings.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 21:39

Spiky Ooze: Oct 27, 2005; Bernie Sanders is a friend to my planet (pictured)

click the shit outta^

Ham posted:

Reaction to Gaddafi's death in Egypt is interesting, most people are happy the war in Libya looks like it's coming to an end, but they're also very much against how Gaddafi was killed, calling those who did so "barbaric" and saying that he deserved a fair trial and a clean death. It's markedly different from most western publications' opinions.

I think calling them barbaric is an overreaction just because there's videos. It's a weird thing. There's no videos of Gaddafi's army raping, torturing, and butchering, using every dirty offense and cruelty as they did, so nobody's talking about that still.

It's just 'boohoo that poor old poof and his silly fashion sense, he was a victim of the mob' I hate when people are driven by the media's latest video clips like that. The guy MADE victims for this last year, and surely before, and now he's the victim. Good grief.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 21:40

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

As it seems there's a lot of new people here this is the twitter list I put together of journalists reporting in or on Libya.

Reuters - Gaddafi's body lies in Misrata market cooler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laZkbn-EICs

quote:

People stand in line to see the body of former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi in Misrata October 21, 2011. Gaddafi�s body lay in an old meat store on Friday as arguments over a burial, and his killing after being captured, dogged efforts by Libya�s new leaders to make a formal start on a new era of democracy.

quote:

Libya�s National Transitional Council has said it would declare the full �liberation� of Libya on Sunday, after initially saying it would take place on Friday, then on Saturday.

�It will be on Sunday afternoon at around 14:00 GMT.�

NTC information minister Mahmoud Shammam told reporters. �It will be a public announcement, I think in the main square of Benghazi by (NTC chairman) Mustafa Abdel Jalil.�

The announcement is to mark what the NTC says will be the beginning of the process of building a democratic system in Libya.

Moatissim Gaddafi talking while under arrest, can anyone translate?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW3WqcBYUtc

Video of the moment of Gaddafi's capture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLAS2NQT8f8

Latest Saif claim via twitter from about 40 minutes:

quote:

#Saif Gaddafi arrested in #Zliten. Photos and a video of his detention will be published within hours said commander Ali el-Shawesh

How about a lovely bit of death cake?

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:05

Rrail: Nov 26, 2003; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Want to eat that cake.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:06

Just Another Lurker: May 1, 2009; INCREDIBLY UNFUNNY & DUMB
(seriously, stop posting)

Some days the tyrant bites you and sometimes you bite the tyrant, good luck to Libya for the future.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:07

RobattoJesus: Aug 13, 2002

Brown Moses posted:

How about a lovely bit of death cake?

If I get married I'm going to have a giant wedding cake with the delicious frosting corpses of all my favorite dictators lying on each layer.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:13

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Amazing article from the rabidly pro-Gaddafi "news" website Mathaba.net:

quote:

Is Qaddafi Dead?

People have been so worried as to whether the Leader of the World Revolution, Muammar Qaddafi of Libya, is dead or alive. Let us examine this question, and reach some definitive positions based upon the Third Universal Theory, which Muammar Qaddafi championed.

First, let us consider why it matters, or does not matter. To the terrorists attacking Africa's Libya, NATO, the mercenaries and the "Islamist" rats it matters, because that has been their key number one objective, from which all else follows. For them Qaddafi = Libya = Jamahiriya.

NATO, the American-European military alliance has dug itself into a corner from day one, because their first aim was to kill Qaddafi, and the reasons for them wanting to do so have been explained in countless other analysis articles here on Mathaba.Net.

From the start of the NATO bombing, which they thought would take 2 to 3 days to achieve its objective of killing Qaddafi, later revised to 2-3 weeks, then 2-3 months, and then "indefinitely", Mathaba stated that NATO would not be able to do so.

On the very day of their biggest ever failure, when they went in an all-out massive desperate bombing of Qaddafi's home which he still would not run away from, in order for the Rome meeting of Clinton to be able to declare a victory, it backfired when he went out to feed the animals, and instead his 3 grandchildren and youngest son died along with many others.

That damaging news was immediately squashed by the sudden release within a few hours, of the "death of Bin Laden", so as to deflect world media away from sympathy for Qaddafi and his family, and toward the power and might of the USA. Only problem is, on the web, people quickly figured out that this was not Bin Laden who was dumped at sea, let alone the problem that he had died many years earlier.

But that did not matter, because 99% of tell-lie-vision (TV) viewers believed it, just as they did when Obama's White House came up with his forged birth certificate, which later proved as evidenced by traces left in the history of the file uploaded to the White House web site, to be a fake because it had been edited, not only scanned.

Understand that the "international media" meaning this crowd, always get their way, because most people get their news and influence from there. They report a lie ad infinitum (such as the "Libya did Lockerbie" lie) but when the opposite is proven to be the case (witnesses admitted being paid $4million each and recanted their evidence), that "new" news is either not reported, or reported only in passing, on some small inner pages or paragraph.

Now we have the reasons and timing for Qaddafi's "death", before we address whether he is actually dead or not, and why he is dead and is not dead.

Reasons include that a recent internal NATO and CIA review of the war on Libya revealed it to be a mess and a pathetic failure. Not only had Qaddafi continued to survive, but he was getting more famous by the day, and with that, the danger of his ideas and example, being discovered. More on that in a while.

Further, the objectives, to control Libya, it's oil and water, and to separate it from the rest of Africa, also failed abysmally, even though they cut off all Libyan broadcasting stations, both TV and Internet, by bombing, denial of service attacks, hacking, and threats -- the green resistance continued especially in central Libya.

This, in spite of non-stop bombing, missile and terrorist attacks, and a total blockade and siege and then destruction of democratic Jamahiriya cities where the population were holding out, and where the "rebels" could not enter: mass starvation and total destruction ensued, bombing of hospitals, and over 60,000 dead.

Yet still those civilians in those towns, armed to defend themselves, did not give in to NATO bombs and terrorist rockets and assassinations. Then NATO in desperation started to use banned weapons, mini nukes, chemicals, and "poor man's" fuel bombs, resulting in further large-scale massacres, in the past week.

The world media was about to be unable to ignore this any further although they had been silent during months of atrocities and blockades, with photos now emerging in recent days, showing a town utterly destroyed with bodies littering the streets. An urgent distraction was again needed.

With in-fighting in recent weeks between the rebels, monarchists, kleptomaniacs, criminals, 'al-Qaida' and mercenary groups all initially united only in their hatred for Qaddafi now falling apart and in open confrontation with mass resignations from among their ranks and leadership, something needed to be done.

With NATO pilots and drone operators realising that there is indeed a very real danger of them having to face justice for war crimes and crimes against humanity, and with pilot fatigue and dissatisfaction creeping in as after 8 months of non-stop aerial bombing the truth has become known to them that they are not there to protect civilians but instead to bomb them, something had to be done.

Hillary Clinton needed to visit Tripoli, to "rally the troops", and provide a brave face for the Europeans who were increasingly worried about being on the forefront of a war that they have started to realize they cannot win, and which will ultimately backfire, for many reasons already covered here on Mathaba.Net and elsewhere.

So, the big white lady descended on Libya for a few hours and spoke, calling for the capture or death of Muammar Qaddafi, knowing that as with Bin Laden, the videos and images were already prepared. Lo and behold, presto, a day later, "Qaddafi" was both captured and killed.

Yes, he is now dead, for the world media. And the incredibly and deliberately shaky videos, prove it, as do the doctored still images. No one, especially not Obama, needs to declare Qaddafi dead, for the rebel "TNC" so-called Transitional National Council (or what is left of it, less than a dozen people), said it is so, and Jazeera and Al-Arabiya as well as PRESS TV and Russia Today echoed the "news" as fact.

Problem is, he is also not dead. Not only because he was not captured and not killed, as reported elsewhere here from reliable sources, but because he already lives in the hearts of millions. And this now brings us to the next point, as to in which ways Qaddafi is dead or alive, and whether and how much it matters.

Qaddafi is alive. It matters, because NATO has thus not won the war, and not even won their first "easy" objective. It matters because some people need a leader and won't operate without that leader: the large numbers of volunteers converging on Libya from around Africa, are not all going there for reasons of defending Libya, Libyans, or even Africa, but because of their love, appreciation and solidarity for Qaddafi and wanting to help him as the "Brother Leader".

Yet, even though Qaddafi did not die and most people still have not woken up to the fact that we live in a digital world where all images, videos, and sound, can easily be forged -- not only by easily available commercial image and sound manipulation software, but by military grade programs and super-computers.

People have not woken up to the fact that the very "main stream" media they have come to rely on, as well as their political leaders, have less education, less common sense, and less experience, than one would expect, and thus are also easily misled.

But one day, Qaddafi will die, and in that sense is already dead, as the rest of us are too. However, he has lived to see his philosophy actually put into practice, something very few philosophers in the world have ever had the privilege of. Sadly, he has also lived to see it destroyed. But no quite.

What has been destroyed, is Libya, but not the Jamahiriya: not the values, ideals, and democratic, economic and social relationships that have proven to be so strong as to withstand the world's most powerful and brutal military forces for almost a year, and still hold out. And this has resulted in a great opportunity, as we shall see.

The entire world faces a cross-roads over the coming year, and we remember the New Year message from Mathaba on 28th January 2011 saying that this would be the most important year ever:

quote:
As we start 2011 this is going to be a most important year for future life on this planet. It is essential to STAY INFORMED, and SHARE what you know with others. Mathaba, as the world's leading independent news agency is playing an important part in giving people the tools for making the world a better place.

That cross-roads, now has a chance of taking the right turn, because the very key solutions to those problems facing the world, were being ignored and Mathaba was a lone voice in the wilderness talking about the Third Universal Theory. Now however, thanks to the war on Libya and the attacks on Qaddafi, people the world over are asking what it is that is going on -- it is clear to all that it is not about protecting civilians, and has led to millions reading The Green Book.

Further, hardly anyone outside Libya knew anything about the Jamahiriya, about how all power, wealth and arms were in the hands of the people in Libya, or that Qaddafi had handed power to the people in 1979 two years after the creation of the Jamahiriya, and the introduction of direct, participatory democracy.

This, and the amazing economic benefits that resulted from it, are the reason that even during NATO bombing he could go around Tripoli in an open air car and no one would shoot at him, without any real security, as shown in this video shot during April this year, one month into the bombing of his home.

Other truths started to surface, and resulted in millions of people world wide posting videos, articles, and comments on social media. Truths such as these.

Now, what is to be done, and what is Muammar to do? Actually, he has been trying to tell everyone who has been listening these past many months, a few key points and yet from what we see, it is not getting through to everyone, even those who are his fans around the world, and which we summarize here below:

* I am not the Libyan resistance, the Libyan resistance is the people. They will continue to fight, until NATO and all others against them, leave Libya. They will lay down their lives to defend their freedom, as will many of my own family. I live in their hearts, and in the hearts of millions.

* I am not the government of Libya, I do not hold any official government positions. I am a revolutionary. I am outside of power. Power rests with the Libyan people.

* I have spoken all my words, so many times, until I grew tired. "It is all there in the pages of The Green Book. Please read it and you will understand."

* I have completed my work, I gave power, wealth and arms to the people, who possess it. I am just one man among millions in Libya.

* I brought to light the Third Universal Theory. It is as if mankind had become locked in a cave without sunlight, and forgotten what sun light looked like. I found the rusty keys on the floor, and put them in the lock. Thus all that is needed is to turn the key to come out into the sunlight again.

* The Green Book is a collection of truths, showing the way for solving the problems of power via democracy, wealth via socialism, and the social basis of the Third Universal Theory. As the farmer, I did not create the fruits, but picked them from the tree and placed them into a basket, The Green Book.

The above are an English language para-phrasing of some of the things he has said. During the current conflict he also gave clear advice:

* I will never give up on Libya, I will fight to the end, I will not run nor leave my home land.

* NATO will have to leave, they can never occupy Libya, they will never live in peace stealing our wealth.

* The (rebels) will not last one day without NATO, so they should make peace now while they have a chance.

* Do not trust the media, they will say I have said this or that, that I have died, or that I am here or there. They lie, and are easily manipulated, so do not trust them.

* No orders are needed, come out into the streets, clean the country from the rats until the green flag of freedom is flying everywhere again.

So, why does anyone need to hear from him yet again? What difference does it make if he is alive in freedom, or dies in freedom? Either way, is victory. Either way, is a motivation to those who love him. If he is alive, they are motivated, if he is martyred they are motivated.

Why are people avoiding getting on with the real work to hand, which is to, among other things:

* Study The Green Book and put it into practice, forming green charter committees everywhere and calling for people's conferences.
* Organize and mobilize, hold rallies with green flags, videos, posters, t-shirts, or even travel to Africa to defend the Jamahiriya.
* Get out there and spread the truth, call others, wake them up, show them the evidence, recruit more members to the movement.
* Report your actions, submit rally, meeting, protest, or other reports and statements via pub.mathaba.net
* Network with others, using open source tools such as mathaba.info

The Green Charter Movement will soon be launching a wiki in addition on its web site, which will explain many of the concepts, definitions, and structures of the movement.

Remember, even though the Leader is at the time of this writing still very much alive in more ways than one, he does not need to speak: all has already been spoken and written, it is now up to us all to hear those calls and put them into practice, and then in future if the time is right and we have finally done something along the way of building a Universal Jamahiriya, he may choose to address us again. For now, let the enemies of freedom remain confused and fearful, while we move forward united and strong, and continue the green march to people's power as a solution to the problems of corruption, exploitation, oppression, war, need and greed.

Some of the following tasks are still very much outstanding, and all should now become involved in the work:

* Registering sufficient numbers of people at https://www.peoplesconference.org/reg so that people's conferences can be formed in various areas. The IPCO will contact everyone when the time is right and there is something to report, a publication called "World Conference" is planned.

* Adopting the Green Charter for the interim, and spreading https://www.greencharter.com so that the green charter movement will grow world wide and show the way forward to people's power (Jamahiriya) everywhere.

* Making sure that all those who have committed crimes are held to account, see https://www.peoplesconference.org/cah -- and assisting with the creation of a world crimes data base at https://www.worldcrimes.org as well as the entering of data into it and the organization of World People's Conferences on Crimes Against Humanity to be held in 8 locations around the world, by March 2012.

* Collecting funds for all the above, to assist with expenses, publicity, donate via the website https://www.peoplesconference.org as well as https://www.mathaba.net/donate.htm

* Forming International Solidarity Committees around the world to coordinate an effective mass migration toward whatever location is decided time and place, to put and end to the war and rebuild the Jamahiriya, or otherwise to create a new Jamahiriya, with this formation to be coordinated by IPCO.

* Join the mailing lists and any other means of staying informed, such as https://www.mathaba.net/support and https://www.mathaba.net/go/daily

* Costing and Production of T-shirts, Posters, green flags, green books (Green Charter International has ISBN and copy right and printers, funds are needed to print)

* Building of alternative and independent communication networks, which will continue to function without electrical grid, Internet, or phones

* https://www.mathaba.com is to be launched as a central point linking the various official sites and tools for the interim

They've got some serious denial going on over at Mathaba.net. Speaking of which, here's a list of pro-Gaddafi twitter accounts for fans of schadenfreude.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:21

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Stoatbringer posted:

The way he's been treating the people for the last 40 years, it should really come as no surprise.

Dictators rarely have happy endings.

And his house got the same humiliation treatment too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp0jCYACu8A

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:22

Rrail: Nov 26, 2003; by Y Kant Ozma Post

quote:

because 99% of tell-lie-vision (TV) viewers

Can't wait for this to make its way into American vernacular.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:23

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I'm loving loving the reaction of the pro-Gaddafi sites at the moment, like this video from AfriSynergy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJlcNGwkWY8

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:27

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Brown Moses posted:

I'm loving loving the reaction of the pro-Gaddafi sites at the moment, like this video from AfriSynergy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJlcNGwkWY8

Amazing powerpoint animations can easily hide obvious truths.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:31

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Libya SOS is taking it hard:

quote:

ANALYSING �GADDAFI�S KILLED� VIDEOS:
1. On the videos which were allegedly recorded in Sirte, sun is shining, dust everywhere.. however ,in reality,just a day before -Sirte was FLOODED.

2. In two different parts of the same video..we can see that the �Colonel� has two different hair colors.. in one part he has light-brown hair, in the other he has black hair.

3. In one of the videos �dead Colonel� has bumpy nose, looks broken in a strange way, in other videos where this man is dead, his nose is straight

4. In the early videos (from Sirte) his face looks very young, and we all know how wrinkled he was.

5. They said that he was shot in the legs, and that he bled to death.. but this captured �Colonel� is standing while they are pushing him around. In addition, lower part of the body is not covered with blood.

6. Naked uper part of body of the �Colonel� is young, with no signs of aging in the videos, but real Colonel is a 70 years old man. Do you know how the body of a 70 years old man looks like, especialy of a man who have spent all his life in a desert.

7. Some of the released videos were recorded a day before, on 19th of october (!!)

8. According to one of their propaganda stories, they found �him� in a sewer. And yet �he� appears freshly shaven, his beard trimmed on the videos etc..

9. There is another strange detail in the video in Sirte also, one black woman- a civilian- stands and watches the show , seeming very relaxed. A black civilian woman in Sirte on the side of the rats (!?). This is impossible. Everyone knows what NATO Al Qaeda rats are doing to black men, women and children in Libya. They hang, lynch and behead them. Especialy Sirte black women, IF there are ANY left in Sirte (which I highly doubt) would never be on the side of the racist rats. This is realy strange.

10. On one video Gaddafi is covered with blood when they are placing him on a pick-up, on another with the same �action� his face is clean like he is headed to a wedding.

11. Fact: Massive demonstrations against NATO and NTC were being prepared, unified counter-attack, uprising has already started on 14th of october.

12. Just days after Hilary came and said she wants Gaddafi dead, �he� got killed.

13. Not just him, his sons and every high-official person they could remember of �got killed on the same day IN SIRTE�, although it is known that Gaddafi and his sons were leading different brigades at different fronts around Libya. (note: Libya is the size of 1/3 of Europe, and Sirte is just one small town which was for months under siege)

14. Gaddafi�s daughter Aisha says he is alive.

15. Gaddafi has 12 doubles.

QUESTION: HOW MANY OF GADDAFI�S DOUBLES DID THEY ACTUALY KILL?

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:33

Monkey Fracas: Sep 11, 2010; ...but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!; Grimey Drawer

CNN Man is moving pictures of Gadhafi's mutilated body around a magic touchscreen and making wild conjectures about how he died. Prime journalism right there. Not that I care about ol' Sillyclothes McWarcriminal, but it just seems ridiculous.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:35

Distant Chicken: Aug 15, 2007

Brown Moses posted:

But that did not matter, because 99% of tell-lie-vision (TV) viewers believed it, just as they did when Obama's White House came up with his forged birth certificate,

I love this. They just kinda throw it in there. "Oh by the way he's not a US citizen"

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:37

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Brown Moses posted:

Libya SOS is taking it hard:

Also so jealous over the rebels having a successful sexy night party:
http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2011/10/shame-shamelessness-sexy-dinner-in.html

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:38

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Libya360 is feeling pretty butthurt too

quote:

NATO�s Mighty Wurlitzer has been churning at a furious pace the past few days. Recent news of the death of the Revolutionary Brother Leader is part of a wider and far-reaching psychological operation underway and the reason I have abstained from posting news from the Resistance.

Beware of any news pertaining to �capture�. This I can assure you, will never happen.

The photographs and film footage provided as evidence that the Brother Leader has fallen, are fake. These images were released months ago and at that time, the official Libyan Government warned us not to be deceived by them.

There are numerous theories surrounding the timing of this release. It is no coincidence that this follows Hillary Clinton�s latest visit to Libya and her renewed call for the capture and murder of the Brother Leader. The rest is speculation. When I can offer you detailed, factual and verified information, I will. For now�

# ? Oct 21, 2011 22:43

Eschers Basement: Sep 13, 2007; by exmarx

Awesome craziness here.

Mathaba.net posted:

People have been so worried as to whether the Leader of the World Revolution, Muammar Qaddafi of Libya, is dead or alive. Let us examine this question, and reach some definitive positions based upon the Third Universal Theory, which Muammar Qaddafi championed.

Gaddhafi is apparently Schroendinger's Dictator, both alive and dead at the same time.

Perhaps they will use socialist theory to determine the time and cause of Gaddhafi's death; it's about as effective as anything else it's been used for.

Also, I'm loving the D&D invasion of this thread. "It doesn't matter how many people Gaddhafi had killed or tortured to stay in power for over forty years - he improved Libya's health care, and thus must be mourned and treated with proper and due respect." :downsbravo:

# ? Oct 21, 2011 23:17

Sandweed: Sep 7, 2006; All your friends are me.

Eschers Basement posted:

Awesome craziness here.

Gaddhafi is apparently Schroendinger's Dictator, both alive and dead at the same time.

Perhaps they will use socialist theory to determine the time and cause of Gaddhafi's death; it's about as effective as anything else it's been used for.

Also, I'm loving the D&D invasion of this thread. "It doesn't matter how many people Gaddhafi had killed or tortured to stay in power for over forty years - he improved Libya's health care, and thus must be mourned and treated with proper and due respect."

Hey hey hey, as long as you improve education and healthcare in your country, you deserve your own raperoom.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 23:28

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# ? Jul 14, 2025 18:54

Paradoxus: Nov 22, 2007; BOCK?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I like how pro-gads keep echoing dehumanizing the rebels calling them Rats. Its one thing to call someone a terrorist, but you really think calling a large portion of Libyan civilians rats is going to make you come off as a sane rational person. It's sad because even the NTC has the decency to admit that most pro-gad fighters where probably tricked into fighting and aren�t really bad people. These pro-gad people bitching about how violent the rebel rats are, but would totally be cool with gadafi mass murdering half the Libyan population, because hey if you defy gadafy you obviously are a rat who does not diserve to live.

# ? Oct 21, 2011 23:37

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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