Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Can someone give any political and social details on the impact of Bahrain protests in relation to the Saudi Arabian Government/State?

I know very little on the relationship between the two regions as well as religious and sectarian differences.

What sort of outcome can we expect with Bahrain protests, both successful overthrowing and failure?

I've heard on AJE that the protesters are waiting for the US and other countries to weigh in to the atrocities of killing peaceful protesters before they continue onto the square. What sort of relation does the US state department have with the Bahrainian Govt. and can/will that have any influence with our relationship with Saudi Arabia visa vi the previous question concerning their government's relation to Bahrain.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2011 19:57

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 22:49

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

@MrQwerty

Sorry for being obtuse, does this mean that the Saudi and Bahrain governments have close ties? (Apart from requiring it for geographical location)

Does the establishment of the Bahranian government have a direct influence on the export of Saudi Oil?

# ¿ Feb 18, 2011 20:04

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

So basically, Saudi Arabia is hosed. Every single nation around them are going through uprisings. Except Oman and the UAE, and Kuwait (Although the protests in southern Iraq can probably count as Kuwaiti protests to some extent.)

Are there any reports for any sort of demonstrations happening within Saudi Arabia? I know they're considered the most conservative of all the Islamic middle eastern nations, and sedition is quite frowned upon, but they have to have some big concerns on what is happening all around them.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2011 20:11

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Farraday,

That's interesting. Is there any news on the demonstrations on the west bank? I remember hearing something about Palestinian factions calling for unity. Could this lead to some violence against Israel, or are those calls for peaceful unity?

# ¿ Feb 18, 2011 20:24

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Galewolf,

Would you say the internet would be required to maintain peaceful organizing? Are you afraid if the internet doesn't remain stable that the situation could turn severely violent?

Best of luck to you.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2011 21:09

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:

What would happen if the House of Saud fell? I imagine at this point that might be on the table if Saudi Arabia is getting into Bahrain's business.

This would absolutely change the world as we know it. If there was some overthrow of the government, the world economy would crash in the interim.
Gas prices would rocket so fast.

Fake edit: talk about too big to fail.

Sivias fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Feb 18, 2011

# ¿ Feb 18, 2011 22:07

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Brown Moses posted:

Massacre video

This is going to be an international issue real quick. Those aren't rubber bullets.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2011 00:29

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Seems like the media blackout is significantly more intense than it was in egypt. Not nearly as many twitterers. Information is slow, as well as it's the middle of the night.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2011 01:06

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

So, there is a lot of focus on Lybia and Bahrain currently, but what are the details, if any, on Iran and China?

AJE mentioned something that protesters in Iran have been injured by the security forces via teargas, and they're camping in the streets overnight, but nothing concrete.

And in China, how easy is it for citizens to get outside information (I.E. Al Jazeera, etc.)?

# ¿ Feb 20, 2011 20:57

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Suntory BOSS posted:

...China-- ...Great Firewall...

They sure like their walls.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2011 21:02

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Jut posted:

Maybe America should mind it's own drat business and let things happen naturally. As if nearly a century of meddling in middle east affairs turned out well.

This is a very ignorant statement. America owes it's standard of living on the control these despots and dictators have on their country and resources. The idea that we have no interest in controlling the outcome of these events is really obtuse.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2011 21:43

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Jut posted:

Wait, so you're happy for these people to have a lovely quality of life, just so you can enjoy yours?

I never once said I agree with it. The idea that you read what I posted as anything other than an unbiased statement is concerning.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2011 21:53

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Jut posted:

Where I suggested that maybe America stays the gently caress out of this for a change, and let's the respective countries work things out for themselves, instead of the US getting involved and manipulating the situation to benefit themselves at the expense of other populations. You know...repeating history and all that.

It's also naive to think that America is the only nation with vested interests in manipulating or participating in the changes in these regions.

AJE reported that 79% of Libya's oil exports go to Europe. Isolationism is an unrealistic idealism that will not work with such deeply dug in globalization.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2011 22:28

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

I can agree with that.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2011 22:31

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:

The real question is how will these governmental and economic changes going to effect the population of the planet.
You may have heard, food isn't exactly plentiful for a large portion of the planet. It's a very precocious situation we have here. The reason the population is at the level it's at is because the resources can support it; and no more. If there is a sudden change in the distribution in resources (oil for example), the balance we have will, I fear, take a turn for the worse.
What's going to happen to the planet when we run out of oil? It's like a banana in a fridge with a family of flies. As long as they have the banana resource, they will breed and flourish. But what happens when the banana is gone? That population collapses to a sustainable level.
We humans are no different than bacteria growing in a petri dish. Or flies in a fridge.

:350:

Sivias fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Feb 21, 2011

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 08:44

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

BBC has a tripoli Libyan on the line. The connection is awful, but the bits you can hear sound atrocious.
"Thousands... people in the street" as he cries.
"Help"

This is so horrible.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 19:36

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Brown Moses posted:

The two pilots who landed in Malta are colonels and are currently spilling their guts about the activities of the army, and that's being passed onto the EU.

I hope something comes of this. And soon.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 19:41

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

I think I can hear a little kvetching from the reporter on the BBC right now, talking about how the world is silent to the calls for help from Libyans.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 19:48

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Intel5 posted:

I'm just ranting here, but we spend billions on the latest and greatest military toys, and now we have a veritable carte blanche of international opinion to use them to save lives, and our president is standing around holding his dick. We could have air superiority over Libya within hours, it may do fuckall for stuff that's happening on the ground, but they wouldn't be able to drop bombs on their own people anymore.

This is such a balancing act though. If we don't have UN approval, we'd effectively be "going rogue" Even if the global community approves of it, politically it could have astronomical impacts.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 19:54

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

@Ace Oliveira

We can say for sure they aren't planting gardens and walking down the street and in hand. There is some horrible stuff happening over there right now.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 20:52

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Slantedfloors posted:

Well yeah, that would be worse. But that's going into a realm of horror so deep that next logical step would be something like "Satan, Sauron and Darth Vader announce their support of the Protests"

What if Israel offered some sort of large humanitarian aid assistance? That would be seen as a sign of good faith and a step towards unity?

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 22:13

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Apology posted:

Jesus loving Christ that is so gruesome.

Video already removed, so if you could summarize what you saw please? What country, what the content of the video was, please?

I was only able to stomach a few seconds of it, but it was basically a hospital with human beings resembling hamburger meat. No report about it, no specifics, just video.
It's assumed it's video taken from Libya.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 22:33

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Samurai Sanders posted:

Just to confirm, there's no chance that he will volunteer to step down, right?

Well, not according to him. "I will fight till the last bullet." "I will die on Libyan soil." etc.

Then again, Mubarak said the same thing.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 22:48

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Samurai Sanders posted:

Yeah see, I wasn't expecting that either, that's what gives me a sliver of hope that Gadaffi would make the right decision at the last minute.

I wouldn't count on it. The human atrocities that have happened so far in Libya are outweighing what happened in Egypt by leaps and bounds. Not to say what happened in Egypt was a walk in the park - gently caress that, I wouldn't have wanted to be there.

But from the reports coming out of Libya... I don't really want to speculate.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 22:54

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

What is going to happen when Gadaffi is gone? By whatever means will inevitably oust him - will the people trust the military to hold an interim government like we saw in Egypt?
Seems like the military isn't respected like Egypt's is.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 23:13

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Billy the Mountain posted:

Who is asking us to stay out? That one Libya Dude tweet? Who is he?

The former Libyan diplomat who resigned said "We don't want the west to interfere. We just want them to tell the world that what is happening there is terrible."

# ¿ Feb 21, 2011 23:24

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

MJB posted:

Christ. How the hell can a person carefully aim a rifle at a kid's head and take a shot? That would give most people pause even if it was war and the kid was armed with intent.

This poo poo in Libya is depressing beyond belief.

In all likeliness, 'sniper' is probably a stray round, or in-discriminant fire. Which doesn't make the event any less traumatic, but I doubt there are bell tower guys taking calm careful shots at individuals in a gigantic crowd.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2011 05:48

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Gonkish posted:

Jesus loving christ, I knew Gaddafi was a nutjob but loving BOMBING PEOPLE INDISCRIMINATELY? gently caress man, talk about ratcheting up the crazy.

I hope that, when the Libyans have ousted this prick, that they capture him and let him rot in a lovely cell for the rest of his miserable life. Killing him would be far too kind.

Tear off all his toenails, cut his flesh and force him to bathe in a tub of hydrogen peroxide till his skin sloughs off. Then dry and salt him like jerky. What other horrible tortures can we imagine for the worst of our planet?

# ¿ Feb 22, 2011 07:42

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

zalderach posted:

The defectors will probably be able to return when the revolt is successful.

And celebrated as national heroes. To defy an unjust regime and seek assistance for the abhorrent treatment of the Libyan people.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2011 20:35

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

farraday posted:

Anyways, I wouldn't be too hard on those who defect rather than take up arms to fight the regime. Removing hardware from the regime's control is a victory in and of itself.

Correct. We've seen what pro-Qadaffi soldiers do to defectors. I'd rather they get out with the gear and spread the word of what is happening than die a pointless and painful death in a ditch.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2011 21:00

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Ace Oliveira posted:

Carpet.

At least that's what his clothes look like to me.

That carpet is going to be worth a lot of money in like 6 weeks

e: Holy poo poo. The loving State TV showing like 38 people with floodlights on them. It looks like a "Dance till you Die" competition in hour 37. I laughed so hard.

Sivias fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Feb 23, 2011

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 00:42

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Wow, what that guy just said about Quadaffi and the African Union on AJE. Talking about how the rest of Africa aren't speaking up in any way because A) Most of the regimes in power owe it because of his financing, and B) they're afraid of him because of A.

So much oil gives so much power.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 01:44

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

So, once the novelty of protesting wears off, is the global spread for Democracy going to spread? Or will it really take some time to see if these new nations prosper under democratic rule?

Can we see movements like this in other parts of the world? Is China at all afraid of democracy spreading like Communist states of the past have?

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 01:50

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Earwicker posted:

From what I've heard there were two jets that defected and landed on Malta, and another one where the pilots ejected after refusing an order to bomb civilians (and let the plane crash in an uninhabited area) - do you have a source on more?

Well, I think it has more to do with the ground real estate. There are large reports of ground forces defecting or joining the protesters. The aircraft can't say in the air forever and I sure as poo poo wouldn't want to land onto a hostile airfield.

This is just my own speculation, of course.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 20:26

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Tuxedo Jack posted:

It's likely that after the first 2 defected to Malta they started only fueling the planes enough to bomb and return, thus forcing the third defector to bail out and let the plane crash.

That makes it sound like they're sending out one aircraft at a time, and their Air force is only like 7 aircraft strong.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 20:36

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Earwicker posted:

I wonder about possibilities of landing in Egypt? Not that it's stable there but it seems like defecting Libyan forces might be more welcomed in Egyptian borders, and the border isn't that far from Benghazi

I don't know for certain, but the boarder may be in close proximity, but is an actual airfield?

I think Malta is closer either way.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 20:42

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Young Freud posted:

12

What the gently caress has this guy spending all his oil money on for the last 42 loving years!?

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 20:46

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

RunningOnEmpty posted:

Just think about it. They would have had an idea what might happen to them if they said no. I wonder if those men were shot one at a time. Did the question get asked again, whispered in their ear? And when they felt the muzzle pressed against the back of their head, having heard the man next to them fall forward, did they know that this- the end they have chosen, was better than killing their own country men.

If I was ever in that position, and that thought alone makes me shudder, would I be man enough to face the sequences of that last question. I hope I never have to find out.

What a chilling and sobering description.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 21:37

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Did anyone else get the feeling like Hillary was just saying "This isn't our problem..."?

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 22:07

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 22:49

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Brown Moses posted:

quote:
Saadi, a former professional footballer, also said his brother Saif al-Islam is currently writing a new constitution for the country.

What a loving complete disconnect from reality if they honestly think this will return everything back to normal.

"Oh... A new constitution written by the same guys. Hey! Everyone! Let's get these bodies in the ground and get back to our lives. Everything is fine now."

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 22:23

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