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Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Isentropy posted:

Unlike America, France actually supported their buddies with actions.


I you france
The french police actually trained the Bahrain police force in the bloody art of crowd control, fyi.

And everyone should google "alliot+marie+scandal+tunisia", it's funnier when you know that Alliot Marie was in vacation in Tunisia in December with her 92 years old father, flying several trips in a private jet owned by a friend of the Ben Ali clan, having phone calls with Ben Ali and "watching" her father buy a Tunisian company in the plane for 100+k €. She then denied being aware of the riots when she was in "vacation" (despite the first protests starting a week before her trip, what a good foreign minister!), denied that the jet owner was a friend of Ben Ali (he was on of Ben Ali's last presidential campaign main fundraiser), denied that she had phone calls with Ben Ali (twice, one denial for each phone call), denied there was anything wrong with her father deals and she added that people should be ashamed to attack her family 'just' to hurt her.

And last December, the French Prime Minister was in vacation in Egypt.

Also the new french ambassador in Tunisia is a sarkozist neocon, the former french ambassador in Iraq (the "Iraq is a democratic workshop", "we are here to get some reconstruction contracts", "Bush was right" type of guy). There was a protest in front of the French Ambassador today, telling him to "GET OUT LITTLE SARKO" after he apparently went apeshit on Tunisian tv when a Tunisian journalist asked him what was the official french position on the Alliot Marie scandal.

Toplowtech fucked around with this message at Feb 20, 2011 around 01:37

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Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



The Brown Menace posted:

This is really not surprising, France is a real piece of poo poo country when it comes to foreign policy.
It's getting far worse with Sarkozy. There is a current diplomatic row between Mexico and France because Sarkozy decided to dedicate the "Year of Mexico in France" (it's a yearly joint cultural celebration event in France with a new country each year and this year, it's Mexico's turn) to a French woman who is currently serving a 60 years sentence on kidnapping charges in Mexico. The Mexican government decided to withdraw. Sarkozy is the smoothest diplomat since Kaiser Wilhelm II.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Brown Moses posted:

Now he's talking about African illegal immigrants causing trouble.
"Thugs, outlaws, anarchists..."

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



tetsul posted:

He sure speaks professionally for a guy rambling gibberish.
He's speaking far too much and isn't saying nearly enough. Also "OIL".

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Brown Moses posted:

I'm guessing he didn't right this down before he started.
It screams "PANIC". His father should be the one doing it and JR is rambling, telling everyone armed people are running around the country and that he is the country only hope for ORDER. Also "Lybia isn't Tunisia nor Egypt".

edit: "they have tanks and guns". Well okay, you are going to die.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Those silly young people with their immigrants, their internet and their drugs. And now they have tanks and guns.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Lycus posted:

Do I have this right? He's claiming that the Chadian mercenaries are actually illegal immigrants with guns who came to Libya on their own to cause chaos?

And they must unite against them!
It's all a foreign plot! And if his regime is destroyed the Imperial European fleet will take over the country!

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Benagain posted:

In Tunisia. And then riots started there, and somehow got enough traction to actually oust the dictator. Then everyone else in the middle east perked up and said "Wait, we can actually do that?"

Then Egypt started and everyone else followed on after that.
It's becoming a matter of national pride: "Why are we still living in a dictatorship? The Tunisian/Egyptian managed to free themselves!"

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Xandu posted:

I don't know why you think France or Italy have any credibility. France has sold weapons to Libya that have been shown to have been used against protesters and has been close with Gaddafi for the past decade for economic reasons. Italy imports a huge amount of Libyan oil and Berlusconi is quite friendly with Gaddafi.

If you speak french, you can watch the current French ambassador in Tunisia (yeah the one who insulted the Tunisian people) here, defending Gaddafi on french Television a few years ago, it's quite disgusting ("Gaddafi has changed!"). Apparently, he was quite proud that Gaddafi was calling him "my son".

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Apology posted:

Shame on you, France. Shame.
They removed all the pictures of Gaddafi visit in 2007 from the official presidential website (Elysee.fr) a few hours ago. .

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Lareous posted:

I agree. The Egypt thing was sort-of-but-not-really-surprising, but the ripple effect has been goddamned amazing. I'd never have thought people would have stood up to Muammar al-Gaddafi.
It would be funny if a far-away non-muslim country would revolt just after al-Gaddafi is removed from power. A country like Cuba.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Mattimer posted:

I think you've been roped in by American propaganda re: Cuba
No, i just want the American anti-Cuban propaganda, the embargo and the Cuba-related politic in Florida to stop.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Vladimir Putin posted:

If the UN is going to institute a no fly zone, then what it's really doing is asking the US air force to shoot down Libyan planes. Because honestly, no other country has the capability to do it on such short notice.
Yeah, all those Eurofighters and Mirages are just plastic toys and can't be moved to Malta, no sir.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Xandu posted:

The Italians might be capable, but they'd never do it.
Not if you tell them they can also use their navy to stop all those boats full of illegal immigrants sailing toward their coast.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



The Brown Menace posted:

Also tell Silvio he can screw Qaddafi's virgin guard once he's gone.
That would work too. Isn't Ruby Moroccan?

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



sweeptheleg posted:

Maybe it would force us to be oil free?
Sure, it would be a good occasion to become oil free except for the fact that developed countries are oil addicts and extremely well armed.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Sivias posted:

The only difference is the country is by far more conservative than the surrounding nations and the government is more of a family. So rearranging money around to help the lower class citizens is far easier.
It's true but fact that their government is a family could also be their main weakness. King Abdullah is 86 years old and his health not that good anymore (herniated disc, i think?). I wonder what would happen if a succession crisis between Nayef, Salman or any other son of Abdul-Aziz started in the current political context.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Apology posted:

Is anyone surprised that the French are being dicks about things?


http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/wor..._medium=twitter

gently caress you, France, fuuuuck yoooouuuuu :argh
Alain Juppé is the new French Minister of Foreign and European Affairs. He was also Minister of Foreign and European Affairs from 1993 to 1995 (the Rwandan Genocide happened in 1994).

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Brown Moses posted:

The Dutch soldiers are being paraded about on State TV:
Guess Gaddafi&sons are afraid of being paraded in The Hague.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Soviet Commubot posted:

I'm assuming that Sarko wants to get his foot in the door for arms sales once all this is over.
Mainwhile in Libya:

quote:

In the meantime, BBC Monitoring reports A Libyan news agency saying it is in possession of a "grave" secret that could topple French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

The news emanating from Libya stats: "Al-Jamahiriyah news agency learnt today there is a grave secret that would definitely lead to the toppling of Sarkozy and perhaps his trial. The secret is related to the funding of his electoral campaign," said an urgent caption on Libyan TV.

Libya's state news agency has also quoted a government officials as saying Tripoli is considering "severing its relations with France because of information being circulated about France's damaging intervention in Libya's internal affairs".

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Brown Moses posted:

AJE has reported Brega has fallen to the Gaddafi forces, seems like the rebels are getting hosed. Thanks for your help, international community.
After Yugoslavia and Rwanda, are you really surprised?

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



TheBalor posted:

That would be ballsy. Can Sarkozy really afford the possibility of casualties?
No. But him playing the diplomatic bad cop allows Greece to play good cop.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Narmi posted:

So I guess this is why Germany is so against a NFZ?
With the financial crisis, the Greek debt crisis and now the Libyan Revolution, i think it's obvious that the German government is only caring about the trade surplus.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Lascivious Sloth posted:

He's also incredibly insane, so he could just lose his poo poo all together and start massacring his own people. He supported Idi Amin emphatically and tried to defend his last days which resulted in the massacre of thousands of Ugandan's.
And Gaddafi was still supporting Milosevic after the ethnic cleansing started.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



goatface posted:

poo poo, is this the first time Eurofighters have actually gone operational?
Rafales. France officially withdrew from the Eurofighter project in 1984 after it became obvious the Eurofighter wouldn't be carrier-capable. The British are going to buy F-35 to equip their future new carrier.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Brown Moses posted:

Al-Qaeda Crusader Zionist Nazis.
At this point i am surprised no one tried to lip sync one of his speech with one of Glen Beck's rant.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Vir posted:

Who knows - she might an actress from the rebels for all we know, but just the way they react shows that the regime is on its last legs.
At this point the way they are dealing with her is far more damaging to the regime than her accusations. And the worst part? They don't even understand it.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Brown Moses posted:

Good video of Nic Robinson of CNN in Misarata yesterday:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/vide...tle.misrata.cnn
I always loved how dictatorships try to control foreign medias, it's always so obvious and counter-productive. "We control the whole town! Just don't go over there *gunfires* and please now we need to go away really quickly!"

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



quote:

Correspondents say rebel forces appear to be completely disorganised.
To be honest it's their wild run toward Sirte that looked totally disorganized. Can't they even try to fortify their current position, organize their troops, contact the Allied military leaders and get some decent guns (and no plastic toy guns) before rushing in their cars toward an actual army? Because i don't care how low the morale of Gaddafi's troops is, discipline and actual leadership will always make a huge difference.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



HoveringCheesecake posted:

Nice geography skills by the American media, yet again.


So Egypt invaded "North" Sudan after Sudan annexed Ethiopia?

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Brown Moses posted:

Gaddafi has also just appeared on State TV saying he'll stay in Tripoli "dead or alive".
I think a lot of people would be happy with dead.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



dj_clawson posted:

I really hope they find a middle ground, as genuine government reform is the way to go, not chaos, violence, and the overthrow of government. America is a bad example of a violent revolution because it's one of the few that went well.
Well when the alternative is the French Revolution...

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



dj_clawson posted:

And the Russian Revolution. And the Iranian Revolution. The revolution in China, with its many stages between abolishing the Emperor position to the Communist Party and Mao, who killed more people than most Chinese Emperors ever did. And, uh, pretty much every 20th-century revolution against century-old monarchies that has given us the autocrats we have today and are now trying to get rid of.
To be honest i am using the French Revolution as an example because during the first part of it (1789-1791), the King was still kept as a symbol of France (as the King of the French instead of the King of France) and he only lost his head after his botched attempt to flee the country and join foreign armies. Most of the Parliament at the time was for a constitutional monarchy in France but the King's lack of insight reinforced the radicals. I fear that by refusing to make more concessions in the Constitution, the King of Morocco will just lose everything.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Killer robot posted:

That's really the lingering problem of this. Since WWII I understand the average civil war has lasted about four years, while as long as the Arab Spring has been going a common sentiment of internet commenters has seemingly been "well after I read news about Tunisia/Egypt/Syria/Libya/wherever I went to bed, had lunch with some friends, AND marathoned S3 of The Wire, and there still isn't a new government in place? This is a hopless stalemate that will never end!" While it's certainly reasonable to expect foreign air power to shorten the war in Libya, it only goes so far, especially given that when that intervention started things were looking like it was going to be a rout of helpless underequipped rebel forces. Turning that around takes time, and just since we live in a day when news comes out instantly by Twitter doesn't mean everything will happen fast.
For some reason i can imagine a modern news network covering the Invasion of Poland and complaining it's not over after 2 weeks.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



If I was forced to choose between dying in a bunker surrounded by enemies or fleeing into exile with some hopes for me or mu sons to come back on day in Libya, i would choose exile. But who the gently caress know what Gaddafi is thinking...

And honestly i don't know the Gaddafi family well enough to know if they would keep an united facade in exile. It would be funny to see them flee, with plans to destabilize Libya from far away, only to end up in an internal power struggle over money and political leadership.

Toplowtech fucked around with this message at Aug 15, 2011 around 00:51

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



BlackJosh posted:

He only has as much control as everyone around him lets him. If his cabinet/advisors and all the higher ups jump ship or make a deal, what can he, at the end of the day just one man, do?
Well, some advisers have families still in Tripoli i would guess. Gaddafi and Idi Amin Dada were good friend, weren't they?

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Brown Moses posted:

This is an alarming story from the Telegraph:
So he is down to shooting old soviet ballistic missile and hoping that they hit something? What versions of scuds and what type of warheads do he own?

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



An old blog article from March:
http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-voices/?blogpost=154

quote:

On Monday, the Pentagon revealed that one of the targets in its recent overnight raids in Libya had been ‘a Scud surface-to-surface missile facility’. Not much has been said in recent weeks about Libya's Scuds, but as a Wikileaks document from 2010 makes clear they were not all destroyed under the 2004 agreement between Libya, the US and UK on dismantling Libya’s WMD programmes.

At least one Scud transport erector launcher (TEL) can be seen on video of the 2009 parade celebrating Gadhafi’s 40 years in power. Images of a Scud TEL apparently captured near Benghazi on 22 February provide more recent proof.

How many Libyan Scuds remain? The latest IISS Military Balance calculates the Libyan government has around 45 FROG-7 artillery rockets with a range of around 70km. However the number of longer-range Scud-Bs – able to reach around 300km – is unknown.

No-one knows either what shape any remaining missiles might be in. While not destroyed under the 2004 tripartite agreement, they were earmarked for it, and may even have been put into storage pending destruction (although this is unlikely if no successor system had been identified for the Libyan military).

Further, there are no indications that the warheads would contain anything other than a conventional payload, and it is hard to see them being militarily useful in the current phases of the campaign, which seem to be based on ground combat engagements with limited air support. The Scud is relatively inaccurate; and its estimated circular error probable of about 450m would limit its utility in support of ground troops.

And yet and yet: Libya has used its Scuds before. It fired two or three towards the island of Lampedusa in the wake of the US air attack on Libya in April 1986, although the rounds fell in the Mediterranean.

So if the systems are serviceable, their use cannot be wholly discounted. This is particularly the case if they form part of a strategic reserve. Scud missiles could be used to intimidate civilian populations, attack rebel strongholds or engage rebel formations facing increasingly restricted mobility. They could also be used against rebel bases, assembly areas or regional installations within range that could be used as part of any sanctions regime – if the regime perceives itself engaged in a fight for survival.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Brown Moses posted:

Video report on NATO Fakery, with subtitles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LtLoros6Uk
"We aren't losing the war, it's only CGI!"

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Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004



Amused to Death posted:

I can only hope it turns into "Ghaddafi flees Libya" before going to bed.
I would prefer "Ghaddafi&sons captured while trying to flee Libya".

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