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Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


kalonji posted:

Probably the unpopular opinion but i'm with Gaddafi on this one. Its an internal affair and certainly doesn't warrant international military action. This is just the United States removing an enemy from power.

If they were truly doing this for humanitarian reasons then they would of also passed a resolution against Bahrain...oh wait can't piss off the Saudis now..

While I don't agree with you it is certainy extremely hypocritical to have a handful of arab dictatorships cooperate with Western nations in this operation. The moral weight of it all is roughly at the same level as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's condemnation of the Bahraini monarchy's beat-down of opposition protestors. It's all extremely problematic and may have severe popular political consequences.

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Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


AllanGordon posted:

He did put sanctions on Assad and told Saleh to step down in Yemen. Outside of pushing for UN sanctions I don't really know what else he can do.

What about Saudi Arabia? What about Bahrain? There's a lot Obama could do if he wanted to.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Sneakums posted:

Israeli troops just fired on peaceful protesters at the Golan border. (Al-Jazeera Channel)

The protesters were commemorating Nakba.

Edit: 4th casualty just now.

They're commemorating the Naksa day, which is the anniversary of the day Israel occupied Palestine and the Golans.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


dj_clawson posted:

Palestinians also protest within PA controlled areas all the time - sometimes with guns and suicide vests on display - and Israel does nothing about it unless it turns violent on its own.

Are you kidding me? This is probably the most obvious lie you've ever spouted on these forums, and I've read a few. If nothing else there's hundreds of hours of video evidence to the contrary easily accessible on the Internet, such at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyIiajWL_6U

Or the weeklies in Bi'lin, etc, etc. Most likely something similar happened today in the Golans.

*edit* VVVVVV Nelson Mandela was removed from the US's terrorist list in june 2009, so it's ok now.

Svartvit fucked around with this message at Jun 5, 2011 around 21:21

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Some footage of the Golan mow-down taken from the Israeli occupied side. Also featuring an interview with Mark "Goebbles" Regev, finally being talked back by someone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-lJkOzhZnk

*edited for correctness

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Xandu posted:

The girl who writes this amazing blog, http://damascusgaygirl.blogspot.com/, has been kidnapped by the Syrian government.

There's also been some fighting in the Palestinian refugee camp outside Damascus (Yarmouk), but I haven't been able to properly source who is fighting who yet.

edit: It appears to be between PFLP-GC and Fatah.

According to Ma'an it was an uprising in a Palestinian refugee camp as a protest against the weak and complacent leadership. The PFLP-GC HQ was attacked and militants opened fire on the protestors.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Toast Museum posted:

I'm not up to speed on Turkish politics. What is Turkey getting out of its relationship with Syria?

Turkey has a "zero problems with the neighbours" policy. Not hard to understand considering Turkey borders Iran, Iraq and Syria.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


There's not really any significant difference in how Turkey approaches the Spring compared to how the western countries does it. It's a game of coming out looking as good as possible while losing as little investment as possible.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


dj_clawson posted:

Remember that "massacre at the Israeli border with Syria" last week? The one that was never proven to actually result in mass deaths? (But 20 Palestinians were shot around the same time - by Syrians, in the refugee camp in their country)

Turns out the Syrian government was behind it.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...battles-israel/

Oh please, won't you ever stop your brainless propaganda? Everyone knew full well both at Nakba and Naksa day that the Syrians didn't stop the protesters from reaching the Golans. The mere fact that the protests were carried out was solid evidence for that, and the fact that every other attempt was stopped is another. You have to be really indoctrinated by your own propaganda to believe that not attempting to stop it is the same thing as being "behind it". Letting the protesters demonstrate was the only moral thing the Syrian government did. Making sure that everyone was unarmed made it even better.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


dj_clawson posted:

I'm not sure how a secret document from the Syrian government detailing a situation is "brainless propaganda."
The document itself didn't add anything new. The spin you put on it is out of this world.

dogmaan posted:

Ha Ha

Syrian Government == Moral

"brainless propaganda"

Seriously, I couldn't even write this if I tried, funny stuff.

I mean obviously the Syrian government did it for "moral" reasons, and not at all to take the spotlight off of their human rights abuses.
You apparently couldn't read it if you tried either. Funny stuff.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Plastic_Gargoyle posted:

More than that, what kind of nutcase volunteers for something like that? I don't think I'd be willing to be attacked with smartbombs even if I was starving.

You would if your family was.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Xandu posted:

http://www.npr.org/2012/02/01/14623...llings-in-syria

Some great photos of 1982 Hama.









The great Robert Fisk looks back on the massacre and also scold the U.K. a little bit. Deservedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8dSFeWxRnI

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Brown Moses posted:

Small update:

I can kind of see the point of that. I'm not very sure about what's happening in Syria right now but I know that Syrian militias are ruthless. Hama '82 didn't happen for no reason at all, that was a bloody story. Am I completely in the wrong here?

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Brown Moses posted:

For those of you who don't want to watch the video, but know the Anon/Reddit description is wrong and want know the contents here's the description.

A teenager, probably 15, is in a hospital, sat on a bed, with his entire jaw missing, quite a bit of his cheeks, and possibly his tongue, all very red and bloody. He's conscious, and obviously extremely distressed, and this is all filmed clearly and graphically. There's no evidence it was cut off by anyone, but possibly blown or shot off.


I've read about anti-personnel artillery doing these kinds of things when they explode close to the ground. Wasn't Homs bombed?

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Must be nice for Clinton to be on the right side of world opinion for once! She looks at home behind the podium now.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Hamelekim posted:

Yet this was all started by the West in the first place. I don't see Assad's response to all of this as being justification to take him out. The guy is a dictator, of course he is going to use violence to stop a violent uprising.

What do you honestly believe will be the outcome in Syria? Do you honestly believe that the Wests involvement has anything to do with democracy and freedom, rather than corporate and geopolitical interests?

I don't believe the West's involvement has anything to do with democracy, freedom, blah blah blah, but I'd like to see some evidence from you that the West somehow has instigated an attack against the regime. I mean, good if they did, but you might have noticed that the uprising in Syria wasn't an isolated event.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Sivias posted:

After doing a little research on Hezbollah's history (I wont deny I know very little of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict), his 'support' of the Syrian government seems more like reluctant support. Syria and Iran have had long standing political and military assistance toward's Hezbollah's ambitions fighting Israel as their common Jewish enemy. Instead, Syria is fighting it's own people.

Reluctant support in the way like if you found out your best friend abuses his girlfriend. He's still your friend, but man, that's hosed up - you should really cut that poo poo out.

It's not that anyone wants to support a regime like Assad's, it's just that Hezbollah are insufferable realists, and this is the face of realpolitik.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Warbadger posted:

While their reasons may be realist in a sense, they certainly WANT to support the regime rather than the alternatives.

Yeah, I just tried to separate "want" and "want". Now you just added a "WANT"!

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Golbez posted:

re Hamza: it's stuff like this shows how truly in the dark ages many Muslim nations are. The last time you could hide domestic woes by distracting the people with religion in the Christian world was pretty much, what, pre-Renaissance? And now we have this? The people in Saudi Arabia, if we are to take this at face value, are far, far more angry about a few tweets than anything else wrong in their country? It's either a paradise or they're easily used by the government.

What's different in the Muslim nations that don't fall into this trap? Like Turkey, is it because it's officially secular?

I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. I see that poo poo in a lot of Christian places, especially in southern Europe, Africa, Eastern/Central Europe and the Americas including U.S.A. where a load of Christian fundamentalists are rallying for all kinds of backwards projects used by Republican candidates in order to avoid the things that really is wrong in America. Clearly, religion has a greater part in the Middle East than in the West, but you have to watch what you're saying.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Golbez posted:

I can only speak for the U.S. but while they may try they don't succeed. They certainly don't get people screaming for blood like we see in this situation. It's cliche to compare the religions in this fashion, but I don't recall anyone extraditing the guy who made Piss Christ, or any government seriously calling for his punishment or death.

But this isn't just about religion, as pointed out by the fact that Turkey seems ... not perfect but much better off than the rest of the region. It's when they combine Islam with the government that things get lovely. Of course that applies to Christianity and government as well, but as I said, Christianity has mostly outgrown that. Most former Christian nations are now either officially secular, or the people are so secular it doesn't matter anymore. It's not too much to expect the same of Islam.
You are confusing the secular West with something you call "Christianity" in a major, major way. I don't think you know what's going on in Uganda, in Moldova, in Serbia, in Congo, in Malta, etc, yet you feel confident enough make some of the most sweeping generalisations that can be made. But let's not make this thread into that infected discussion.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Xandu posted:

I'm not sure about AQI specifically, but in general al-Qaeda and its affiliates confirm their attacks. The fact that Zawahiri is mentioned as authorizing the attacks leads me to believe they'd claim responsibility if it was them. Zawahiri has previously praised the Syrian protesters, which makes sense given that Ba'athist Alawites (i.e. non-Sunni) are in charge.

If it is them, I don't think it's as a simple as saying it was just opportunism like the guy quoted in the article did.

I was going to say that what's going on in Syria is looking more and more like what happened in Algeria, but I didn't want to jump the gun, and I honestly don't know enough about what really went down in Algeria.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Dodoman posted:

The avatar shows the Persian Immortals. Not sure on the quote.

The quote is from a very influential Persian Sufi philosopher. One of the best poets in the world all time probably.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Xandu posted:

Well when you raise the stakes to Gandhi

Honestly, I'll have to think about it some more, my initial opinion was not very well articulated.

My opinion is very strongly in favour of foreigners travelling to other countries and participating in (non-violent) popular protests. It can really be helpful, especially if it's done in places that doesn't get a lot of attention otherwise. From what I've heard, this has really meant a lot in places like East Timor, South America, Palestine and for the situation of the Kurds in Turkey. Foreign nationals can be intimidating in that way, and can boost the morale a great deal. I know the American Occupy movement soaked up the encouraging message from the Egyptian trade union to the point of total exaggeration even if it wasn't much. Also I'm totally an internationalist.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


az jan jananam posted:

These protest movements don't need foreigners, they need their neighbors. If anything a foreign presence works directly against these homegrown and dynamic protest movements given pervasive paranoia towards foreign involvement, which is why protesters have generally been quick to deny any sort of foreign assistance. I would tell any foreigner that they are better off trying to raise awareness and build solidarity where they are rather than waste money flying off to an Arab country to play at being Che Guevara or Gandhi.

I can really appreciate this gesture at the celebration of the Libyan Revolution anniversary: "Get out Bashar, for the fulfillment of our joy"


Yeah of course, you have to exercise judgement. What works in one place or even generally isn't necessarily a good idea everywhere. The protest movements in the Middle East are not all that is in the world though, may I remind you that things are going on in other places, like in Tibet where the same stigma doesn't exist. And "foreigner" doesn't imply "Westerner" either, it can easily be Libyan or Maldivian or whatever.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Patter Song posted:

This is about as provocative as it gets. It would be sort of like naming an anti-Christian group "The Pontius Pilate Brigade" or something.

EDIT: Just so we're all on the same page: Muawiyah was the 7th century caliph that had Ali (founder of Shia Islam and the target of veneration by the Alawites) killed and his son and successor Yazid had Ali's sons Hussein and Hassan (the grandsons of Muhammad) put to death. It'd be pretty much impossible to find a pair of names more associated with Sunni violence against Shia.

Also he was the independent-minded governor of Syria at the time. It fits in.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Patter Song posted:

Quite right. And after the Umayyads (Muawiyah's family) took power, they moved the capital of the caliphate to...you guessed it...his seat of power, Damascus.

I just read the original post and I don't think this is the right Muawiyya. Let's move on....
*edit: I can't read, I am an utter failure. I don't exist. You read nothing.

Svartvit fucked around with this message at Feb 19, 2012 around 23:12

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


QuiteEasilyDone posted:

WillyFoReal just broadcasted from the Syrian border. Confirming that Assad forces are laying mines on the borders as an attempt to keep refugees inside the country.

Also, militias are using neighbouring countries to catch breath, heal and resupply.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Young Freud posted:

Sad, but not surprising. My guess is that most people have confabulated the Palestinian Authority with Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Also, not surprising is that the view of Palestinians flip-flops around 2001 (or, should I say, 9/11), because the Palestinians were viewed more favorably than Israel through the later part of the '90s.

Palestinians have never been viewed more favourably by Americans than the Israelis. The judgement on Israel has always been in the stratosphere compared with the judgement on the PA/PLO. It's even in there in the link. Views on Palestinians didn't really flip-flop after 9/11, they dipped.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


I've been keeping an eye on Yemen just a short while now and it is really messed up. Just this Saturday, militants destroyed several buildings in a southern city, and yesterday al-Qaida showed up at the outskirts of a southern province they control with more than 40 "military vehicles" and fought off the Yemeni army which apparently ran out of ammunition before al-Qaida did. Another militia was reported to have "surrounded" an entire mechanised division of the Yemeni army in the same province. It's all hosed up. A new southern commander has been appointed and I think that the Yemeni army is planning to invade said province (Abyan) soon which could lead to anything.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


The al-Qaida accusation has made a full circle i think. Soon it will lose all weight and meaning.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


ISAF's own Anders Behring Breivik.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Golbez posted:

An unfortunate word choice on my part (in both instances) made for speed. I think the Afghans were uneducated and/or being manipulated. This does not justify their behavior in the least, it is an attempt to explain it. And yes, any American who would riot over such a thing is in exactly the same boat; my comment about 'sane' was to the fact that I can't picture anyone ever rioting over someone desecrating a copy of the Constitution, at all. The mere concept is laughable, so either it was a poor equivalence to desecrating a Quran, or we're dealing with two different mindsets.

If you cannot fathom why there were riots after the Quran burnings (as the word were) then you do not fathom much at all about the reality of the occupation. Of course Afghanistan is "backwards" in so many ways, but as a rich and spoiled citizen of the comfortable West, you come off as incredibly arrogant and self-centered when you make such a high-handed analysis of an extremely downtrodden people while only exposing a shallow understanding of their situation.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Do Hadeed and al-Dude have an affair or what?

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Don't listen to him. In this new economic climate one cannot afford to take vacations. This thread commands you to get to work!

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


az jan jananam posted:

How on earth did she manage to say that?

Also, how can she answer "how much do you cost" to a question where the obvious answer is ﻻ? Odd story.

On another note, an acquaintance of mine is Syrian, born here, and has been pretty active politically in general and especially when it comes to the uprising in Syria. He and his brother has been forwarding videos and stuff from inside Syria and has been doing it in an organised way. Now he and his entire family has received death threats from the Syrian government, and they've been showing pictures of him and his family on Syrian state TV together with the encouragement to help catch the "traitors". Seven of his relatives in Syria has been jailed and tortured and forced to give up information about their family in Sweden. Sucks big time!

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


As an F1 fan I fully endorse this. Bahrain is the most boring race on the calendar. The only reason they have a spot is because they can pay ridiculous sums for it, but I have a feeling it's more of a royal family stunt than an actual boon to the Bahraini economy.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Yes, the government still has to pay the enormous fees and compensate sponsors to the tune of several hundreds of millions of euro, but not even the popular races with lots of attendees expect the event to generate black numbers in the books. That's even less likely for such a small country as Bahrain. The sport has seen a price hike in GP arrangements so big that France can't take it any more, and the legendary Belgian GP is halfway pulling out because it's so fiscally unsound. I'd take the assessments by the Khalifas and the F1 industry with a huge pinch of salt.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Tunisia is on the same longitude as Germany, Switzerland, Denmark and Norway. True story.

*edit: rly makes u think

Svartvit fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2012 around 08:53

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


For those interested, here's a rough update on what I've been reading about Mali lately. Tuareg secessionist Azawad National Liberation Movement, joined by Maghrebi al-Qaida fighters apparently, has taken control of most of the north eastern Kidal province. They're outgunning Mali's army thanks to the flux of weapons from Libya. The coup governments focus is on crushing the rebels and may or may not actually have support from the people in doing this. Right now they're holed up in Gao and fear that the ANLM will make a move on that city which is a big and important city along the river Niger.

Meanwhile the Western African regional organisation ECOWAS is currently awaiting an end to their ultimatum directed to the coup regime, set to expire tomorrow (depending on where you live). If power isn't transferred back to the democratic government tough sanctions will be imposed (they will probably hit Mali real hard). ECOWAS has promised that they'll aid Mali's army if they comply. The inability of Mali's regime to beat back the rebellion was the cause for the coup d'état in the first place. This may all spin out of control.

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Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


MothraAttack posted:

There are reports that Islamists took down the MNLA flags in Kidal and have been de-Westernizing the town, indicating some discord between the two rebel movements.

edit: Malian forces have also abandoned Gao, leaving it wide open.

Wow, that went down quickly.

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