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PhantomOfTheCopier
Aug 13, 2008

Pikabooze!


PlushCow posted:

A more humorous part I enjoyed was after a good great gun exercise that Jack tells Stephen about when they are in the captain's cabin afterwards, and Stephen is less than interested:

"I am happy you are pleased; and certainly the mariners seemed to ply their pieces with a wonderful dexterity; but you must allow me to inist that that note is not A."
"Ain't it?" cried Jack anxiously. "Is this better?"


Ha ha!


I claim to remember that, though perhaps it just sounds like O'Brian. On reflection I feel like some of that gets lost as the series progresses.

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xiansi
Jan 26, 2012

im judjing all goons cause they have bad leader, so a noral member is associated whith thoose crasy one

Personaly i would quit the goons if i was in cause of thoose crasy ppl

Clapping Larry

I stumbled across this earlier today:

https://rootsofprogress.org/navigating-the-high-seas

Now I understand sextants, and lunars!

The whole thing is really good in fact. And I want a print of that map at the end:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...2-dunn-1794.jpg

PhantomOfTheCopier
Aug 13, 2008

Pikabooze!


First, go get Pub 229, the volume appropriate for your latitude. The introduction contains a sample sight reduction to demonstrate the "basic" calculation. Next ask yourself how you intend to measure time accurately for your observations since every 4sec moves you 1mi.

Also realize that you can use an artificial horizon and that nice sextants are fairly inexpensive, so you can do this navigation thing on land where there's no shifting deck to worry about.

MeatwadIsGod
Sep 30, 2004

Behold! It is I! I bestow upon you...my dirty dipey!


The last chapter of The Ionian Mission is loving incredible

Bubbacub
Apr 17, 2001



Pishtaco posted:

Largely inspired by these books, I have been working on a frigate simulator.

I just released a build: https://thapen.itch.io/painted-ocean

It's fairly bare-bones, and I don't guarantee its realism, but it does give an idea how these ships function. You can maneuver in the wind; there is weather and terrain for the world for a year; there is time acceleration, if you want to sail across the Atlantic; and you can set up frigate actions. If you want to lose your foremast and shoot up into the wind, now you can.

Holy poo poo, this is amazing

Kylaer
Aug 3, 2007


Tiny thing I have a question on. The phrase "fighting over a chest" is used several times in the series, and from context it's clearly some kind of non-lethal duel, but does anyone know what it actually means? The only thing I can think of is that it could be a fistfight with a chest set on the deck between the fighters, to keep them from getting really close to each other.

Kaiser Schnitzel
Mar 28, 2006

Schnitzel mit uns






Kylaer posted:

Tiny thing I have a question on. The phrase "fighting over a chest" is used several times in the series, and from context it's clearly some kind of non-lethal duel, but does anyone know what it actually means? The only thing I can think of is that it could be a fistfight with a chest set on the deck between the fighters, to keep them from getting really close to each other.
I don’t think I have any justification for this, but for some reason I’ve always thought it meant arm wrestling.

yaffle
Sep 15, 2002

Flapdoodle

Kylaer posted:

Tiny thing I have a question on. The phrase "fighting over a chest" is used several times in the series, and from context it's clearly some kind of non-lethal duel, but does anyone know what it actually means? The only thing I can think of is that it could be a fistfight with a chest set on the deck between the fighters, to keep them from getting really close to each other.

I believe it is a fistfight, but seated on either end of a chest facing each other. I remember somewhere in the books a crewman failing to report for duty because he had fought somebody over a chest and couldn't stand anymore (maybe they had fought with improvised weapon of some sort?).

PlushCow
Oct 19, 2005

The cow eats the grass


Got a way through Post-Captain on my re-read the past few days, and one line I remembered and enjoyed was this part where Stephen is visiting Sophie, and asks about her family and a gentleman-caller:


'How is your mama, your sisters? May I ask after Mr. Bowles?'
'They are very well, thank you. As for him,' she said, with a flash of her eye, the calm grey growing fierce, 'I sent him about his business. He became impertinent - "Can it be that your affections are engaged elsewhere?" says he. "Yes, sir, they are," I replied. "Without your mother's consent?" he cried, and I desired him to leave the room at once. It was the boldest thing done this age.'

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



Isn't Sophie like 28 in that exchange? So messed up how women were infantilized.

Mr. Mambold
Feb 13, 2011

Aha. Nice post.




Kylaer posted:

Tiny thing I have a question on. The phrase "fighting over a chest" is used several times in the series, and from context it's clearly some kind of non-lethal duel, but does anyone know what it actually means? The only thing I can think of is that it could be a fistfight with a chest set on the deck between the fighters, to keep them from getting really close to each other.


Idk, but I found this amazing work of antique British and American slang https://publicdomainreview.org/coll...an-slang-1909/, which, although a slightly later era, contains quite a bit of earlier verbiage, and may deserve its own separate thread of Victorian slang talkers.

Examples from an article: ARFARFAN'ARF
A figure of speech used to describe drunken men. “He’s very arf’arf’an’arf," Forrester writes, "meaning he has had many ‘arfs,’” or half-pints of booze


...and from this lovely work https://www.google.com/books/editio...tsec=frontcover, nothing about fighting over a chest, but there's this



and this astonishing bit: To feague a horse-

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE


Mr. Mambold posted:

and this astonishing bit: To feague a horse-

It gets better.

1. The modern word is gingering, which is unsurprisingly banned in horse shows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gingering

2. There's a BDSM practice now called "figging" which is, well, gingering / feaguing, but a person: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figging

Mr. Mambold
Feb 13, 2011

Aha. Nice post.




ulmont posted:

It gets better.

1. The modern word is gingering, which is unsurprisingly banned in horse shows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gingering

2. There's a BDSM practice now called "figging" which is, well, gingering / feaguing, but a person: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figging

Tis a hanging offense if practiced upon a Man o War.

Kylaer
Aug 3, 2007


^^^ That gets referenced in some Terry Pratchett book, I recall. There's a punchline about how you have to buy two of them, because after all, you gotta catch the horse after you've livened it up.

Also, a fistfight sitting on the ends of a chest makes perfect sense, thanks, it's exactly the kind of handicap you'd put on your people to make it less likely (although of course not impossible) that someone gets beaten too badly to keep up their work. Although if it was arm wrestling, that makes it even more hilarious that youngster Jack and Heneage Dundas decided that since they were forbidden to fight over a chest, they had no choice but to duel with cutlasses ashore

Arglebargle III posted:

Isn't Sophie like 28 in that exchange? So messed up how women were infantilized.

Women in the series in general certainly don't seem to be, it's specifically Sophie's mother who is such a tyrant, and Sophie is dutiful to a fault.

Kylaer fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Oct 31, 2019

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013


So, fighting over a chest is definitely just a punch-up with the opponents facing each other separated by a sea-chest. I'm not sure if they were standing/kneeling/seated, or secured in any way. But I gather it was partly to restrict their ability to fight (no kicking, limited grappling) to methods and effects which were considered acceptable. Also just for lack of space. You have to have this fight to settle a dispute in a small space, possibly without being noticed by your officers. So the two square up and get it done relatively quickly.

But I believe the most important reason is a function of violence as a social display. Men don't just fight because they are angry or aggrieved. They are doing it to retain their status and deter others from accosting them. So by facing each other within fighting distance and staying there until one is incapacitated they are showing courage and steadfastness, to their shipmates as well as their adversary. This might be a bit analogous to how fights are provoked and carried out in prison.

yaffle posted:

I believe it is a fistfight, but seated on either end of a chest facing each other. I remember somewhere in the books a crewman failing to report for duty because he had fought somebody over a chest and couldn't stand anymore (maybe they had fought with improvised weapon of some sort?).

Now I think you're referring to a bit when Stephen is treating two seamen who have injured each other playing at 'loggerheads', which are iron balls on long iron handles, used to heat pitch without carrying open flames back and forth. In that case the two had been play-fighting and miscalculated, but seamen could fight a proper bout (similar in intent to duelling or the fighting over a chest discussed above) if they had a score to settle.

This is the origin of the modern phrase 'at loggerheads with' someone.

Sax Solo
Feb 17, 2011



Sophie is also especially sheltered and detached from reality, sort of by choice/temperament.

Mr. Mambold
Feb 13, 2011

Aha. Nice post.




I had an Aubreyan moment of clarity re: fighting on a chest. It is literally King of the Chest, where 2 combatants try to force one another off an unspecified size chest. Rules and rounds established prior to match.

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

AUSTRALIA
NEEDS
TURNBULL


This might be a dumb question, but I've looked around... has nobody ever, in this over-saturated age, done an Aubrey-Maturin podcast? I've done some googling around and have only found the occasional episode of film review podcasts that will talk about the movie. I'd really love something that would do like an in-depth recap of a book per episode (ideally spoiler free since I'm only halfway through the series), but it looks like there's nothing whatsoever.

PlushCow
Oct 19, 2005

The cow eats the grass


I'm on book 3 HMS Surprise in my re-read but some things from book 2 Post-Captain I enjoyed:

When Stephen first arrives aboard the HMS Lively, with Jack as temporary captain:

"...Stephen, by way of being amiable, said, 'What a splendid vessel, to be sure - vast spacious decks: one might almost imagine oneself aboard an Indiaman,' there was a wild shriek of childish laughter - a quickly smothered shriek, followed by a howl that vanished sobbing down the companion-ladder."


And after Stephen arranges for Sophie and her sister to take a trip aboard the Lively and Jack endlessly adjusts the decorations and furnishings on the ship making the crew crazy, has to tell Stephen it's time to remove the bees he brought aboard:

[Jack says] "By the bye, you will not object to the bees going ashore, just for a while?" "They did not go ashore for Mrs Miller. There were none of these tyrranical caprices for Mrs Miller, I believe. They are just growing used to their surroundings - they have started a queen-cell!'" "Brother, I insist. I should send my bees ashore for you, upon my sacred honor."


I also picked up this fun children's book https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Bies...r/dp/146548471X A nice thing to share with my nieces and nephews when they graduate from Where's Waldo and they can help me find the hidden stowaway character and also learn about maggot infested ship's biscuit.

PlushCow
Oct 19, 2005

The cow eats the grass


Kylaer posted:

Tiny thing I have a question on. The phrase "fighting over a chest" is used several times in the series, and from context it's clearly some kind of non-lethal duel, but does anyone know what it actually means? The only thing I can think of is that it could be a fistfight with a chest set on the deck between the fighters, to keep them from getting really close to each other.

Genghis Cohen posted:

So, fighting over a chest is definitely just a punch-up with the opponents facing each other separated by a sea-chest. I'm not sure if they were standing/kneeling/seated, or secured in any way. But I gather it was partly to restrict their ability to fight (no kicking, limited grappling) to methods and effects which were considered acceptable. Also just for lack of space. You have to have this fight to settle a dispute in a small space, possibly without being noticed by your officers. So the two square up and get it done relatively quickly.

But I believe the most important reason is a function of violence as a social display. Men don't just fight because they are angry or aggrieved. They are doing it to retain their status and deter others from accosting them. So by facing each other within fighting distance and staying there until one is incapacitated they are showing courage and steadfastness, to their shipmates as well as their adversary. This might be a bit analogous to how fights are provoked and carried out in prison.


Now I think you're referring to a bit when Stephen is treating two seamen who have injured each other playing at 'loggerheads', which are iron balls on long iron handles, used to heat pitch without carrying open flames back and forth. In that case the two had been play-fighting and miscalculated, but seamen could fight a proper bout (similar in intent to duelling or the fighting over a chest discussed above) if they had a score to settle.

This is the origin of the modern phrase 'at loggerheads with' someone.

In my funny cross-section book I noticed this:



The black line going to it was about "Gambling" on a ship, betting on dice or fights etc.

Molybdenum
Jun 24, 2007
Melting Point ~2622C

has anyone read the Alan Lewrie series by Dewey Lambdin?

I'm on the third book and the writing is... not great. They almost read like D&D books, but there's like 20 of em. I guess there's probably 20 drizzt books though.

not that i mind d&d books but they're not Aubrey/Maturin and the back cover draws that direct comparison.

Grendel
Jul 21, 2001

Heh, heh, heh...bueno

Molybdenum posted:

has anyone read the Alan Lewrie series by Dewey Lambdin?

I've read all of'em once or twice. They're fun, but definitely not up to the standard of Aubrey/Maturin, or even George MacDonald Fraser. They're more on a level with the Bolitho books, or maybe Sharpe. Enjoyable, but not outstanding. They're also not quite as subversive or scandalous as you might think.

PlushCow
Oct 19, 2005

The cow eats the grass


Finally finished my series re-read book 3, HMS Surprise. Lots of highs in this one (Jack and the sloth a favorite) and some real lows (the child Dil, Stephen granting her wishes, and the conclusion of that plotline got me teary-eyed again). Not to mention Stephen and Diana

Jack trying to raise Stephen's spirits by showing him where he carved his initials (bracketed by a couple of manatees or beer-drinking mermaids) by the topmast head as a boy on the Surprise:

'Does not that raise your heart?' he asked.
'Why,' said Stephen, 'I am obliged to you for the sight of it, sure.'
'But it does raise your heart you know, whatever you may say,' said Jack. 'It raises it a hundred feet above the deck. Ha, ha – I can get out a good thing now and then, given time – oh ha, ha ha! You never smoked it – you was not aware of my motions.'
When Jack was as amused as this, so intensely amused throughout his whole massive being, belly and all, with his scarlet face glorious and shining and his blue eyes darting mirth from their narrowed slits, it was impossible to resist. Stephen felt his mouth widen involuntarily, his diaphragm contract, and his breath beginning to come in short thick pants.


Took me a long time to read this one as I got massively distracted by other things for weeks and weeks (thanks Total War Warhammer 2).

PhantomOfTheCopier
Aug 13, 2008

Pikabooze!


PlushCow posted:

Took me a long time to read this one as I got massively distracted by other things for weeks and weeks (thanks Total War Warhammer 2).
Like a poor navigator, you just couldn't make it off the island. Other journeys later in the series will mirror your distraction.

Sax Solo
Feb 17, 2011



PlushCow posted:

Stephen felt his mouth widen involuntarily, his diaphragm contract, and his breath beginning to come in short thick pants.

Even in narrator voice, it can't quite be called laughter.

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

AUSTRALIA
NEEDS
TURNBULL


PlushCow posted:

Finally finished my series re-read book 3, HMS Surprise. Lots of highs in this one (Jack and the sloth a favorite) and some real lows (the child Dil, Stephen granting her wishes, and the conclusion of that plotline got me teary-eyed again). Not to mention Stephen and Diana

What exactly is the deal with the child in India? I was still coming to grips with O'Brian's prose when I read book 3 and never really grasped this, though I distinctly remember the imagery of Stephen standing at the shore after her funeral pyre. The other fantastic piece of imagery I remember is towards the end when he feels the outline the ring in the letter he received from Diana, and walks allll the way up the volcano slope to sit in a patch of snow and cry.

Also the other really heartbreaking thing in that book, and a mark of how subtle he can be, is when that officer Nicholls (or whatever his name was) rows Stephen out to an islet and is talking about how his marriage has broken down and he got no post at their last stop, and Stephen reassures him they probably just outsailed the mail ships, and there'll be post waiting for him in Rio. Then the storm breaks and he gets killed and weeks later they're in Rio and Jack gives Stephen his letters and Stephen says "Was there any post for Nicholls?" and Jack just says "Nicholls? No, I don't think so" and the conversation immediately moves on. The poor bastard

builds character
Jan 16, 2008

Keep at it.

freebooter posted:

What exactly is the deal with the child in India? I was still coming to grips with O'Brian's prose when I read book 3 and never really grasped this, though I distinctly remember the imagery of Stephen standing at the shore after her funeral pyre. The other fantastic piece of imagery I remember is towards the end when he feels the outline the ring in the letter he received from Diana, and walks allll the way up the volcano slope to sit in a patch of snow and cry.

Also the other really heartbreaking thing in that book, and a mark of how subtle he can be, is when that officer Nicholls (or whatever his name was) rows Stephen out to an islet and is talking about how his marriage has broken down and he got no post at their last stop, and Stephen reassures him they probably just outsailed the mail ships, and there'll be post waiting for him in Rio. Then the storm breaks and he gets killed and weeks later they're in Rio and Jack gives Stephen his letters and Stephen says "Was there any post for Nicholls?" and Jack just says "Nicholls? No, I don't think so" and the conversation immediately moves on. The poor bastard

He gives her silver bracelets and she's super happy about it but then gets murdered for them.

Kylaer
Aug 3, 2007


builds character posted:

He gives her silver bracelets and she's super happy about it but then gets murdered for them.

Yes, that's what happens, but I think freebooter is asking why it happens, why O'Brian thought that would be a good story arc to include, what it's supposed to illustrate.

And my own sort-of-answer is that I don't think this is looking at the books the right way. I don't think O'Brian tended to write things with a "why" in mind, he just penned whatever scenes came into his thoughts. There's no moral to the story, any more than there is to real life.

Sax Solo
Feb 17, 2011



freebooter posted:

What exactly is the deal with the child in India?

I'm still wondering what was the deal with the child "bed companion" in Pulo Prabang in the Thirteen Gun Salute.

edit: The most generous reading I can come up with is that it's part of a cover, and/or some kind of weird daughter attenuation training.

Sax Solo fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jan 21, 2020

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



I think that reads as more sinister to a modern person than someone in the 18th century when sharing beds platonically was more common. It is of course suspect because Stephen is living in a brothel at the time... but I think O'Brian would have told us if Stephen was supposed to be a pedophile.

What a strange person.

InediblePenguin
Sep 27, 2004


"I think O'Brian just wrote whatever came into mind without a plan or meaning" is a pretty severe underselling of his skills as an author imo and also imo the "nobody gives any poo poo whatsoever that maturin's sleeping in a brothel with a literal child" being in the same book as "people get sentenced to death for male/male sexual behavior" probably wasn't just a weird accident that the author never thought about

Kylaer
Aug 3, 2007


I may have worded that more harshly than I should have, but surely you have to agree with me that there's a great deal in these books that happens without any "reason." I think this was intentional and that it was meant to echo the way lots of things happen in real life without a reason - people dying in random accidents, that sort of thing.

Sax Solo posted:

I'm still wondering what was the deal with the child "bed companion" in Pulo Prabang in the Thirteen Gun Salute.

I didn't pick up on her being described as a child, I thought she was an adult prostitute and it was just another example of what an oddball Maturin is (and maybe a bit of intentional misdirection on his part to make people misjudge him). Maturin may have referred to her as a child (although I don't remember him doing so) but he routinely does that to women who are adults.

PhantomOfTheCopier
Aug 13, 2008

Pikabooze!


These are historical fiction and O'Brian did a ton of research. "Woman murdered for silver bracelets" seems an easy thing to stumble upon in a news archive, and it probably really happened to newlyweds excepting their actual positions/authority/jobs. He may have adapted many such stories.

Remember also that the series maintains that feeling throughout; for many things there are no reasons and no answers. I have the fortune of not "knowing" war, but I suspect it's similar to your friends that just disappear. Consider the Waakzaamheid's Captain, source of the line "we killed some relative of his? His boy, perhaps, God forbid?".

Or... Bonden.

Kylaer
Aug 3, 2007


PhantomOfTheCopier posted:


Remember also that the series maintains that feeling throughout; for many things there are no reasons and no answers. I have the fortune of not "knowing" war, but I suspect it's similar to your friends that just disappear. Consider the Waakzaamheid's Captain, source of the line "we killed some relative of his? His boy, perhaps, God forbid?".

Or... Bonden.

Or the biggest example, Diana and Mrs Williams.

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

AUSTRALIA
NEEDS
TURNBULL


Kylaer posted:

Yes, that's what happens, but I think freebooter is asking why it happens, why O'Brian thought that would be a good story arc to include, what it's supposed to illustrate.

And my own sort-of-answer is that I don't think this is looking at the books the right way. I don't think O'Brian tended to write things with a "why" in mind, he just penned whatever scenes came into his thoughts. There's no moral to the story, any more than there is to real life.

Yeah I got the impression it was involved in his espionage work and he was trying to recruit her as an informant? It's been ages since I've read it and like I said I was still getting to grips with his very dense writing style, so I may be way off.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



Oh I always got the sense that Dil was low-caste and friendless, and therefore at higher risk for violent crime in the first place. Add in a ludicrous display of wealth for someone in her position and yeah she was jumped almost immediately. British officers not understanding the caste system and making life worse for people they interacted with when attempting to be kind is a pretty common theme in literature about the Raj.

I think I will stand firm saying that O'Brian would have told us if Stephen was supposed to be a pedophile. Also he did get a lot of poo poo for living in a brothel. He carefully cultivated his image as a womanizer to make sure his frequent unscheduled excursions to shore passed without comment.

Kaiser Schnitzel
Mar 28, 2006

Schnitzel mit uns






Arglebargle III posted:

I think I will stand firm saying that O'Brian would have told us if Stephen was supposed to be a pedophile. Also he did get a lot of poo poo for living in a brothel. He carefully cultivated his image as a womanizer to make sure his frequent unscheduled excursions to shore passed without comment.
I think it's definitely this, building cover and contacts. As Jack always says, Stephen's a deep old file.

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

AUSTRALIA
NEEDS
TURNBULL


On my first-time readthrough, up to The Reverse of The Medal, and you know what, is there anything illegal or immoral about insider trading if the tip-off is that the stock's going to rise, not crash? (I presume there will turn out to be more to it than this).

PlushCow
Oct 19, 2005

The cow eats the grass


freebooter posted:

On my first-time readthrough, up to The Reverse of The Medal, and you know what, is there anything illegal or immoral about insider trading if the tip-off is that the stock's going to rise, not crash? (I presume there will turn out to be more to it than this).

Here's one of the real life influences on the novels and his involvement in the scandal that can probably explain it well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoma..._Exchange_Fraud

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Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



freebooter posted:

On my first-time readthrough, up to The Reverse of The Medal, and you know what, is there anything illegal or immoral about insider trading if the tip-off is that the stock's going to rise, not crash? (I presume there will turn out to be more to it than this).

Of course, yeah. If you put it around that smart money thinks a stock is gonna rise you can make money off both the rise and the fall.

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