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Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Well, there were mitigating factors. Both men involved had to be upper-class at least, so it at least wouldn't be bloodshed arising from every instance of an uncouth rando. Honor only required you to show up at the appointed place where the other guy has access to a weapon, not necessarily to actually use it. There were several opportunities to back out once the actual ritual was underway, and part of the role of the second was to offer deescalation. The goal was to convince the enemy that you were willing to risk your life, and in the cold, sober morning light, they might very well decide to say they believe you without personally being the one to put your life at risk.

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PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die
Grimey Drawer
Just gonna drop this in here because I could never make heads or tails of any of O'Brian's descriptions of rigging, and this does a good job of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nr1AgIfajI&t=1236s

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK
Cybernetic Crumb

PostNouveau posted:

Just gonna drop this in here because I could never make heads or tails of any of O'Brian's descriptions of rigging, and this does a good job of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nr1AgIfajI&t=1236s

I finally figured out where the knees are!

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

Torquemada posted:

I've just started reading these, they're excellent. I haven't read the thread in case of spoilers, and I apologise if these questions have (almost certainly) been asked and answered before.

Book 2: The duel that didn't happen. I'm mystified as to why Mr O'Brian felt the need to omit the resolution of the quarrel and have it happen offscreen, as it were. Demanding satisfaction, picking seconds, choosing the ground, then nothing happens and everything is back to normal? If I missed something, or this is answered later in the series, or this is just a stylistic affectation that everyone loves and I hate, let me know.

Book 3: I must have missed something, why on earth do they sail to Kampong via Brazil?

FWIW I found the resolution to the personal conflict in Post-Captain equally absent and mystifying on my first read-through, but it seemed much clearer on my second re-read; not just because I was alert to it but I think after having read the whole series I was more attuned to how O'Brian very subtly goes about things.

On my initial read of the series I think it probably wasn't until the fifth book that I felt really sure I was picking up on everything that was going on. (And I never did figure out the ship and naval battle stuff, but that's OK, because Stephen doesn't either.)

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









Bongo Bill posted:

Well, there were mitigating factors. Both men involved had to be upper-class at least, so it at least wouldn't be bloodshed arising from every instance of an uncouth rando. Honor only required you to show up at the appointed place where the other guy has access to a weapon, not necessarily to actually use it. There were several opportunities to back out once the actual ritual was underway, and part of the role of the second was to offer deescalation. The goal was to convince the enemy that you were willing to risk your life, and in the cold, sober morning light, they might very well decide to say they believe you without personally being the one to put your life at risk.

"Can we agree that duels are dumb and immature?" "Sure"

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013

Bongo Bill posted:

Well, there were mitigating factors. Both men involved had to be upper-class at least, so it at least wouldn't be bloodshed arising from every instance of an uncouth rando. Honor only required you to show up at the appointed place where the other guy has access to a weapon, not necessarily to actually use it. There were several opportunities to back out once the actual ritual was underway, and part of the role of the second was to offer deescalation. The goal was to convince the enemy that you were willing to risk your life, and in the cold, sober morning light, they might very well decide to say they believe you without personally being the one to put your life at risk.

Very good points, but it is interesting how much the lethality of duels varied. So did the generally accepted approach towards whether you were expected to do your best to actually kill your adversary.

In Britain at the time of the novels, duelling was definitely expected for the upper classes, but it was starting to become more uncommon, and it was starting to be more likely a managed affair by the seconds. I mean both parties were growing more likely to fire into the air, or just show up and agree honour was satisfied with some pre-agreed apology that saved face. I'm not saying gentlemen weren't killed in duels fairly often during this period, they absolutely were, and of course statistical analysis is impossible for lack of data. But there were anti-dueling sentiments, largely religious, and the law was starting to clamp down on them, despite the reluctance of juries to convict for murder in duels. But the slide in Britain through the 19th century, towards duels being outmoded, had begun.

In Ireland, as Stephen and John Dillon note in the first book, dueling was far more common and easily provoked; it was probably also more likely to result in death.

There's a lot of fairly biased cultural commentary, both contemporary and modern, about why and how different places and times were more lethal than others wrt duels. It's crazy, but as weapons got better, parts of America still embraced duelling at a high rate. So, combined with a cultural imperative to actually try and kill the other party, you get practically a 50% chance of death. Like rifled six shooters at 20 paces, getting closer at each shot, then resorting to knives if neither party had been killed yet.

The other example of duelling lethality that always strikes me is the contrast between France and Germany pre-WW1. By the time you're in the 20th century, France still has the occasional duel, which were semi-public, with politicians and such worthies writing each other flourishing letters and challenges, sometimes for months, before meeting up in a field with a load of friends and often some journalists, doing a bit of fencing practice, maybe or maybe not wounding each other, and going off for coffee and croissants. The Prussian army, on the other hand, was all in, if another officer insulted you, you were expected to fight, modern military pistols were the norm, and likely one party would be killed.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?
19th-20th German university system also had this deeply insane dueling rule set where you just stood there in specialized protective gear and let the other guy stab you in the face while you try to stab him in the face, not necessarily because there was a real grievance between you but mostly so you can both get a scar like a cool guy would have. No flinching!

The Nazis banned this but it didn’t stick, I understand some fraternities still do it today.

Kylaer
Aug 3, 2007
I'm SURE walking around in a respirator at all times in an (even more) OPEN BIDENing society is definitely not a recipe for disaster and anyone that's not cool with getting harassed by CHUDs are cave dwellers. I've got good brain!
One of the last (maybe the last? I don't recall) legal sword duels in Italy was actually filmed. It was fought to first blood using what looked like some kind of rapier, and ended with one guy getting cut on the arm just above his hand. I can't find it on youtube because my searches are just returning modern sport fencing but I'm sure it's on there somewhere.

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe
Schmisse

Good times

Sinatrapod
Sep 24, 2007

The "Latin" is too dangerous, my queen!

skasion posted:

19th-20th German university system also had this deeply insane dueling rule set where you just stood there in specialized protective gear and let the other guy stab you in the face while you try to stab him in the face, not necessarily because there was a real grievance between you but mostly so you can both get a scar like a cool guy would have. No flinching!

The Nazis banned this but it didn’t stick, I understand some fraternities still do it today.

I really, really thought you had to be exaggerating this. Upon looking into it, you were not. Not even a little. drat.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Sinatrapod posted:

I really, really thought you had to be exaggerating this. Upon looking into it, you were not. Not even a little. drat.

I first learned about it from the Flashman books and also figured Flashman and/or Fraser was just bullshitting for comic effect. Yeah, nah

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013

skasion posted:

19th-20th German university system also had this deeply insane dueling rule set where you just stood there in specialized protective gear and let the other guy stab you in the face while you try to stab him in the face, not necessarily because there was a real grievance between you but mostly so you can both get a scar like a cool guy would have. No flinching!

The Nazis banned this but it didn’t stick, I understand some fraternities still do it today.

Yeah, this still exists. AFAIK the Nazis didn't try and ban it because they were anti dueling or anything, as you can imagine it was probably right on in their dumbfuck misconceptions about masculinity, strength, courage etc. But these schlager fencing clubs were explicitly part of old-school, academically or socially elite universities. Which obviously were institutions the Nazis wanted to rip up, since they had no established stake in them.

tactlessbastard
Feb 4, 2001

Godspeed, post
Fun Shoe

Genghis Cohen posted:

The Prussian army, on the other hand, was all in, if another officer insulted you, you were expected to fight, modern military pistols were the norm, and likely one party would be killed.

The film Night of the Generals was based on a book written by Hans Helmut Kirst, who also wrote a series of books about the daily life of a wehrmacht unit that starts in the 30s and goes up at least until Germany started losing the war, and one very common theme throughout them is that the Prussians are all officious pricks who are running Germany into the gutter.

Torquemada
Oct 21, 2010

Drei Gläser

tactlessbastard posted:

one very common theme throughout them is that the Prussians are all officious pricks who are running Germany into the gutter.

This was also a theme in the books of notorious lying Nazi-fetish weirdo Sven Hassel

Drunkboxer
Jun 30, 2007

loving nuts. But somehow it still makes more sense to me than one guy firing a pistol at you why you just stand there, then if you’re not dead or horribly wounded you return fire.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011
Yeah, schlager clubs are bugfuck insane but even their contemporaries thought so too.

Mulaney Power Move
Dec 30, 2004

I thought that they simply had to let someone slash their face to join the face slash club or fraternity or whatever and it wasn't even about insult and retaliation, it was just a hazing ritual.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

Mulaney Power Move posted:

I thought that they simply had to let someone slash their face to join the face slash club or fraternity or whatever and it wasn't even about insult and retaliation, it was just a hazing ritual.

yeah, if someone was too well liked, they fake insulted him so he could get his scars

ZekeNY
Jun 13, 2013

Probably AFK

Genghis Cohen posted:

Yeah, this still exists. AFAIK the Nazis didn't try and ban it because they were anti dueling or anything, as you can imagine it was probably right on in their dumbfuck misconceptions about masculinity, strength, courage etc. But these schlager fencing clubs were explicitly part of old-school, academically or socially elite universities. Which obviously were institutions the Nazis wanted to rip up, since they had no established stake in them.

I've read somewhere that the clubs also refused to expel their Jewish members when the Nazis told them to, but can't recall whether that was really a thing or a bit of a self-serving retcon after the war

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

ZekeNY posted:

I've read somewhere that the clubs also refused to expel their Jewish members when the Nazis told them to, but can't recall whether that was really a thing or a bit of a self-serving retcon after the war

some few organizations might have refused to expel their jewish members because they sneered at low class nazis, but on the whole the organizations turned quite antisemitic even before nazis gained power

Phy
Jun 27, 2008



Fun Shoe

Nektu posted:

I finally figured out where the knees are!

If you ever have a few days worth of time to kill, check out the rebuild of Tally Ho on YouTube. Dude buys a decrepit traditionally built sailboat (single mast and gaff-rigged, but I won't hold it against him for not tracking down an entire frigate) and ends up replacing almost every single atom of it. It's a great look into how wooden ships were designed and built.

Though I'm still foggy on what the hell the cross-catharpins do.

3 Action Economist
May 22, 2002

Educate. Agitate. Liberate.

Phy posted:

If you ever have a few days worth of time to kill, check out the rebuild of Tally Ho on YouTube. Dude buys a decrepit traditionally built sailboat (single mast and gaff-rigged, but I won't hold it against him for not tracking down an entire frigate) and ends up replacing almost every single atom of it. It's a great look into how wooden ships were designed and built.

Though I'm still foggy on what the hell the cross-catharpins do.

If he didn't name it the Theseus after all that I'll be disappointed.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011

ChubbyChecker posted:

some few organizations might have refused to expel their jewish members because they sneered at low class nazis, but on the whole the organizations turned quite antisemitic even before nazis gained power

Or "these are the good ones" because they successfully joined their snobby-rear end facecutting club.

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013

3 Action Economist posted:

If he didn't name it the Theseus after all that I'll be disappointed.

Ho ho ho (I smoked it)

tactlessbastard posted:

The film Night of the Generals was based on a book written by Hans Helmut Kirst, who also wrote a series of books about the daily life of a wehrmacht unit that starts in the 30s and goes up at least until Germany started losing the war, and one very common theme throughout them is that the Prussians are all officious pricks who are running Germany into the gutter.

I think I was shown a bit of that film during a course once - it's about an attempted coup against the Nazis? Good book recommendation anyway, thanks. Yeah the Prussians are one of the best examples of an efficient, but culturally toxic, military system.

Awkward Davies
Sep 3, 2009
Grimey Drawer

3 Action Economist posted:

If he didn't name it the Theseus after all that I'll be disappointed.

IIRC that argument happened in the comments section of his videos constantly. Like every video.

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe
His argument is basically that as long as it looks like a boat at every stage of the restoration then it is still the same boat.

tactlessbastard
Feb 4, 2001

Godspeed, post
Fun Shoe

Genghis Cohen posted:

Ho ho ho (I smoked it)

I think I was shown a bit of that film during a course once - it's about an attempted coup against the Nazis? Good book recommendation anyway, thanks. Yeah the Prussians are one of the best examples of an efficient, but culturally toxic, military system.

No, it's murder mystery set in occupied Nazi territory where someone from the nazi intelligence services is trying to figure which of the nazi generals in town that day murdered a prostitute.


E: in more thread relevant news I have managed to get Mrs. Bastard and one of the little bastards into San Diego, now I must bribe them enough to consent to go check out the Rose.

tactlessbastard fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Sep 19, 2024

tactlessbastard
Feb 4, 2001

Godspeed, post
Fun Shoe
loving hell, in The Yellow Admiral, in which O'Brian creates the perfect Midshipman (Geoghegan), and then kills him.

Drunkboxer
Jun 30, 2007

tactlessbastard posted:

loving hell, in The Yellow Admiral, in which O'Brian creates the perfect Midshipman (Geoghegan), and then kills him.

After that and what happened to Forshaw in The Fortune of War, I was so sure that Horatio Hanson was doomed in Blue at the Mizzen.

Raskolnikov2089
Nov 3, 2006

Alright, gently caress it, yall convinced me, I'll start my 8th reread

tactlessbastard
Feb 4, 2001

Godspeed, post
Fun Shoe

Raskolnikov2089 posted:

Alright, gently caress it, yall convinced me, I'll start my 8th reread

Strike while the sun is shining!

Cassian of Imola
Feb 9, 2011

Keeping her memory alive!
The poetry contest in The Ionian Mission is so good man

Phenotype
Jul 24, 2007

You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance.



Drunkboxer posted:

After that and what happened to Forshaw in The Fortune of War, I was so sure that Horatio Hanson was doomed in Blue at the Mizzen.

Oof. "Blasted over the side." He'd been such a commonly-heard-from side character over the course of multiple books at that point, and followed Jack between two or three different commands if I remember correctly. He's the one who goes from being totally green to smugly telling the new midshipman how he likes to chew a quid of tobacco before he goes into combat, isn't he? And then you hear "Gone, sir. Blasted over the side" after the confusion of battle, and that's the last you hear from him. Rough one.

Drunkboxer
Jun 30, 2007
It’s so wild that these well to do families would send their 7 years olds to serve on warships, during wartime, that were filled with men that were pressed into service out of prison. Doesn’t seem like such a great idea to me.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

I think they mostly just pretended to be aboard until they were 11 or 12.

tactlessbastard
Feb 4, 2001

Godspeed, post
Fun Shoe

Drunkboxer posted:

It’s so wild that these well to do families would send their 7 years olds to serve on warships, during wartime, that were filled with men that were pressed into service out of prison. Doesn’t seem like such a great idea to me.

Well, one kid you keep to run then family business, you can send one to the seminary, you can't keep any extras at home because of all the plotting, and army commissions cost money up front.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011

Drunkboxer posted:

It’s so wild that these well to do families would send their 7 years olds to serve on warships, during wartime, that were filled with men that were pressed into service out of prison. Doesn’t seem like such a great idea to me.

Well you have a lot of them and only one can inherit so what else are you going to do?

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe
You can probably afford to have a younger son or two blown over the side.

InediblePenguin
Sep 27, 2004

I'm strong. And a giant penguin. Please don't eat me. No, really. Don't try.

if you let them stay home then when they're teenagers they're going to start spending the family money and doing things that endanger the family reputation. plus they might die anyway from a horse rolling over on them or a crowd disease or something. this way they're out of your hair and might become a hero or something

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Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011

InediblePenguin posted:

if you let them stay home then when they're teenagers they're going to start spending the family money and doing things that endanger the family reputation. plus they might die anyway from a horse rolling over on them or a crowd disease or something. this way they're out of your hair and might become a hero or something

And you get to show up at parties talking about your son in the war! And yell in Parliament about all your sacrifices for the country, what with your sons off and away and all.

E: the Army is good too but everyone already got on that grift before you did. Through the series we see the Navy shifting to also have that "pass as a gentleman" concept in the Navy board.

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