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OneSizeFitsAll
Sep 13, 2010

Du bist mein Sofa


Hellian absolutely rules.

Alhazred posted:

Reaper's Gale is, even by malazan standards, an endless slog of misery.

Think I mentioned this upthread, but I'm reading Deadhouse Gates to my wife at the moment, and while it may have more high points than Reapers Gale, I still think it's the most depressing - the amount of references to children and babies not just killed but tortured slowly to death is I think much higher than any other book and makes it pretty unpleasant at times. Still a great book, but yeah... I think the point about random cruelty and malice towards those "different" could have been made without quite so many babies on spits, children with multilated faces slowly dying on a cross and Jaghut children with their bones smashed then pinned under rocks, then their father stuck in unending, eternal, parental grief.

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denimgorilla
Jan 24, 2008

Like an arrow, I was only passing through.

Wolfsheim posted:

people love beak but hellian carries that book

easily a top three character imho

I love that one book that ends with her replacement back on Kartool who absolutely loves spiders

Huh, I donít remember that part!

Josh Christ
Dec 23, 2020


OneSizeFitsAll posted:

Hellian absolutely rules.


Think I mentioned this upthread, but I'm reading Deadhouse Gates to my wife at the moment, and while it may have more high points than Reapers Gale, I still think it's the most depressing - the amount of references to children and babies not just killed but tortured slowly to death is I think much higher than any other book and makes it pretty unpleasant at times. Still a great book, but yeah... I think the point about random cruelty and malice towards those "different" could have been made without quite so many babies on spits, children with multilated faces slowly dying on a cross and Jaghut children with their bones smashed then pinned under rocks, then their father stuck in unending, eternal, parental grief.

Deadhouse is a really grim book overall and I think all of that helps to make the fate of the Chain of Dogs not feel like this one off moment of galactic cruelty. The world is a loving lovely nightmare, and you let yourself get your hopes up for these people against all reason, all evidence to the contrary, and you get brought back down hard.

Shockeh
Feb 24, 2009

Now be a dear and
fuck the fuck off.


Worse, itís our world. Erikson didnít need to invent things, his background gave him plenty of examples of insane, and unnecessary cruelty weíve inflicted on one another.

OneSizeFitsAll
Sep 13, 2010

Du bist mein Sofa


Josh Christ posted:

Deadhouse is a really grim book overall and I think all of that helps to make the fate of the Chain of Dogs not feel like this one off moment of galactic cruelty. The world is a loving lovely nightmare, and you let yourself get your hopes up for these people against all reason, all evidence to the contrary, and you get brought back down hard.

True, and the way Coltaine etc are "rewarded" is one the of the grimmest things about it - not necessarily because it's gruesome (though of course it is), but particularly in the terms of the sheer injustice, in light of their insane heroics.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






Wolfsheim posted:

people love beak but hellian carries that book


Beak is pretty much ruined as a character because god forbid that there was one person in the malazan books that weren't sexually abused.

Jaxyon
Mar 6, 2016
boring as hell and also can be low-key racist

Alhazred posted:

Beak is pretty much ruined as a character because god forbid that there was one person in the malazan books that weren't sexually abused.

Yeah I agree that Erikson over-uses sexual assault in his books. It's one of the main things that make me hesitate in recommending them to people.

denimgorilla
Jan 24, 2008

Like an arrow, I was only passing through.

Jaxyon posted:

Yeah I agree that Erikson over-uses sexual assault in his books. It's one of the main things that make me hesitate in recommending them to people.

A lot of intensely unpleasant stuff happens in this series and it can make it a tough read at times. Iíve re-read these books several times now because Iím insane but it can be a challenge to make it through some stuff even though I get why itís in there and is valuable to the story.

CaptainRat
Apr 18, 2003

Smooth




(Midnight Tides) Seren Padac's is the one that stands out to me as unnecessary, I don't think you really need it to underline how much despair she's in after Buruk kills himself and the war begins, I don't think you need it in order to establish that she can use Mockra, and I really don't think you need to pump up how great and noble Iron Bars and Corlo are, especially because I don't think they show up again in the main series. (On the other hand, maybe that's why you need it.) I don't know that the trope is overused across the series compared to the other flavors of atrocity he uses (although I haven't done the math and could absolutely be convinced) but at least he doesn't use it in a prurient way.

I just finished MT, fittingly enough; this is my third time through the series and it really does read better when you have an idea of when things happen and what the overall structure of the books are, especially because MT is when I feel like the books get less self-contained and more plot threads feel like they're setting up stuff for future books.

CaptainRat fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 12, 2021

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



My favourite part of Beak's story is that of all the possible soldiers to help him come out of his shell, it's Faradan loving Sort.

Jaxyon
Mar 6, 2016
boring as hell and also can be low-key racist

CaptainRat posted:

(Midnight Tides) Seren Padac's is the one that stands out to me as unnecessary, I don't think you really need it to underline how much despair she's in after Buruk kills himself and the war begins, I don't think you need it in order to establish that she can use Mockra, and I really don't think you need to pump up how great and noble Iron Bars and Corlo are, especially because I don't think they show up again in the main series. (On the other hand, maybe that's why you need it.) I don't know that the trope is overused across the series compared to the other flavors of atrocity he uses (although I haven't done the math and could absolutely be convinced) but at least he doesn't use it in a prurient way.

I think i'ts over-used as a means to add "depth and character" to female characters, even though SE is better talking about it than much of the genre...that's a really really low bar to get over.

He's one of the few who actually has male characters also be the victims of sexual assault but it's not nearly even and not given the same gravity.

denimgorilla
Jan 24, 2008

Like an arrow, I was only passing through.

CaptainRat posted:

(Midnight Tides) Seren Padac's is the one that stands out to me as unnecessary, I don't think you really need it to underline how much despair she's in after Buruk kills himself and the war begins, I don't think you need it in order to establish that she can use Mockra, and I really don't think you need to pump up how great and noble Iron Bars and Corlo are, especially because I don't think they show up again in the main series. (On the other hand, maybe that's why you need it.) I don't know that the trope is overused across the series compared to the other flavors of atrocity he uses (although I haven't done the math and could absolutely be convinced) but at least he doesn't use it in a prurient way.

I just finished MT, fittingly enough; this is my third time through the series and it really does read better when you have an idea of when things happen and what the overall structure of the books are, especially because MT is when I feel like the books get less self-contained and more plot threads feel like they're setting up stuff for future books.

To be honest, thatís the one that got me too and I donít think it really adds to that characterís story very much. Seemed tacked on.

CaptainRat
Apr 18, 2003

Smooth




Jaxyon posted:

I think i'ts over-used as a means to add "depth and character" to female characters, even though SE is better talking about it than much of the genre...that's a really really low bar to get over.

Yeah, absolutely, grading on a curve means Erikson stands out from the crowd. Even so, he's got a pattern with the trope where the victim is rarely the one who takes retribution. To be fair this fits with the rest of the series, where victims of all types of cruelty are rarely the ones who get to retaliate against the perpetrators, if the perpetrators even face consequences at all (Mallick Rel you motherfucker) but because that's already a pattern with sexual assault specifically in all types of media, where it's a tragic backstory for a woman but ultimately character development for a man, it grates more than, say, the end of the Chain of Dogs or (Reaper's Gale) Quick Ben taking out Sirryn Kanar).

Cardiac
Aug 28, 2012



Shockeh posted:

Worse, itís our world. Erikson didnít need to invent things, his background gave him plenty of examples of insane, and unnecessary cruelty weíve inflicted on one another.

For all the complaints about violence, including sexual, in Eriksons books, they are relatively tame compared to the last 100 years of human history (excluding Kallor destroying a continent).

Cardiac fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Apr 13, 2021

denimgorilla
Jan 24, 2008

Like an arrow, I was only passing through.

Cardiac posted:

For all the complaints about violence including sexual in eriksons boos, it is relatively tame compared to the last 100 years of human history (excluding Kallor destroying a continent).

No argument there.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012






Buglord

So that Ten Very Big Books podcast is pretty great.

I appreciate the pronunciation guide at the end of the first interview ... but steve, man, please decide between "tisst" and "tighst" b/c he's going long-I in this podcast but someone earlier here posted him going with short-I and no 'e' sound at the end.

OneSizeFitsAll
Sep 13, 2010

Du bist mein Sofa


My recollection is he generally goes with the latter (long "i" version) of those. Both are different from what I use, and by the time I learned this and some other correct pronunciations I had wrong, they were too embedded to really change, especially given I had also established them with my wife when reading to her.

Jaxyon
Mar 6, 2016
boring as hell and also can be low-key racist

Cardiac posted:

For all the complaints about violence, including sexual, in Eriksons books, they are relatively tame compared to the last 100 years of human history (excluding Kallor destroying a continent).

Not sure how this relates but if we're gonna do this, the past 100 years of human history is relatively tame in terms of Dragons compared to Erikson's books.

Spermy Smurf
Jul 2, 2004


dwarf74 posted:

So that Ten Very Big Books podcast is pretty great.

I appreciate the pronunciation guide at the end of the first interview ... but steve, man, please decide between "tisst" and "tighst" b/c he's going long-I in this podcast but someone earlier here posted him going with short-I and no 'e' sound at the end.

This is one reason I can't do audio books much.

I have every pronounciation from Wheel of Time wrong in my head. Malazan doesn't stand a chance.

I am so bad at it that I am not sure I am pronouncing Beak and Fiddler right.

CaptainRat
Apr 18, 2003

Smooth




Spermy Smurf posted:

I am so bad at it that I am not sure I am pronouncing Beak and Fiddler right.

Bee-ahk

Fithler

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Cardiac
Aug 28, 2012



Jaxyon posted:

Not sure how this relates but if we're gonna do this, the past 100 years of human history is relatively tame in terms of Dragons compared to Erikson's books.



Not if you count in Dragoons.

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