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Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Finished The Crippled God last weekend, and while I enjoyed, there are a couple of things that prevent it from being a fantastic ending for this series. At least for me.

First off Erikson kinda forgets about Draconus and the Errant half way through. I was hoping that the Errant would get owned at some time. But no...he literally walks away from the book. Yeah there's that Oppon stuff but I wanted to see it!
Draconus the same thing, he just gets forgotten after he owns Kilmandaros and Knuckles.


The other annoying part was the Perish. What a huge waste of page really. They just go round and round. While it makes sense in some sort of thematic level, story wise it's just a bore. I think it would have a more strong emotion behind it, if it were the Toc Grey Swords. But that would mean re-writer everything since RG.

Also bringing Hetan back after that traumatic moment, was not the best of decisions.

Either way, I enjoyed it and in the end there's more good stuff than bad, it's just the bad stuff are really off for me in this point of the series. Now I eagerly wait for more Malazan books by both authors. Last I heard ICE is trying to get his new book out still this year.

Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Mar 4, 2011

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Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

the periodic fable posted:

i think it's intentional, too.

a question: i can't remember, do we ever learn who Cartographer is up to Dust of Dreams? if so can someone please remind me because i'm blanking hard.

I don't think we do and in the end it didn't matter. Kinda disappointing really.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Jalumibnkrayal posted:

This has been bugging me so I have to ask. I've just started book 8, but one thing I read significantly earlier in the series has always stuck with me:

A group of T'lan Imass come together for a meeting. One of them mentions almost offhand that hundreds of thousands of their kind are being slaughtered by a mortal on a different continent. Is this ever explained?

Not in Book of the Fallen no. Esslemont's last book will finally reveal what the hell is going on in that place, so it's still a long way to go.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Levitate posted:

Yeah, finished it, reading House of Chains now. It's got the "important poo poo got taken care of but at a high price, though I'm not sure Whiskeyjack is actually dead, what with him talking about faking his own death and all. Could have gotten Rake to help him out with that in some way, but regardless, it was a pretty rough spot for everyone else

I may have some bad news for you.

He died.

Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 11:19 on May 17, 2011

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Abalieno posted:

I was writing some comments on Tor re-read, so I thought about asking for opinions here. KEEP IT SPOILER FREE, as I'm not looking for plot details, but just for overall/thematic structure.

The line of thought is this: what is that drives the purpose and meaning of the series?

One of the central themes of the series is that history is continuous and doesn't have a beginning and end. But then to tell a story you have to divide it into discrete pieces, and the way you make this division is the way you decide to interpret it and give it meaning.

So why ten books? As each book tells a relatively self contained story, the whole series, as a collection of ten books, must have a central idea or theme that defines it. A beginning and an end. What is this central idea that drives the whole series and makes it something "finished"? What is the concept, idea, theme or character that unifies it?

The first answer a reader could have is: the Crippled God. The CG is what set the plot into movement, as its fate determines the conclusion of the series.

Is the "Malazan Book of the Fallen" the story of the Crippled God? My idea comes from those questions. I think that the central conflict in the series is another, and that the Crippled God is only one of the pieces involved in a bigger game. An important one, but not the central one. And if I wanted to choose another that is more "representative" then I would pick Paran.

The Crippled God? Hmm I don't think so. I think the series belongs to Shadowthrone and Cotillion, which ties to it's central theme(and consequential your question).

Old vs New.

Shadowthrone and Cotillion set off a chain of events(Even before Gardens of the Moon starts) that changes the world of Malazan and it's balance of power. Old ideas, old gods, old powers now must face change or get forgotten and useless.

So I guess that's it basically. Malazan Book of the Fallen is about Old vs New and the change that comes from that confrontation. You see it all the time during the series. Old creatures that are suppose to be all powerful, but fail to match the new breed of species and it's tactics.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Levitate posted:

Well, and they're talking about Holds instead of Houses and stuff like that and the impression you get from earlier books is that Holds were kind of the primitive version of Houses and all of that, and they talked about Holds all the time until Iron Bars suddenly shows up and you're like "wait, he knows about "modern" magic and poo poo how could that be the case if this took place a long time ago"

The answer is right at the prologue.

Gotos just iced the entire continent and everything just got frozen in time.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

gvibes posted:

Finally finished re-reading them all. Two questions:
1) Do we ever find out what quick ben actually is? He seems more than just a guy with a bunch of souls
2) I don't understand what happened when cotillion stabbed the crippled god at the end of TCG

1- Nope!
2- TCG needed to die so his soul could be released. I'm not sure why Erikson decided to show it as it is in the book though.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

savinhill posted:

Toll the Hounds is where he started going way overboard with all the philosophical inner musings of characters. I liked it better on a reread because I knew what parts I could skim without missing huge chunks of important info.

I thought Dust of Dreams suffered from the same thing plus the addition of the Snake and the Shake subplots. The shake story just took way too long to make sense, although I liked some of the characters involved. The Snake storyline made less sense than the Shake and it was just way too late in the series to introduce a whole new subset of brand new characters and their motivations, especially if they're not even going to be antagonists. I just couldn't get invested in either of those parts(the Snake moreso) and they took up too many pages.

I really liked the Crippled God though. I think it being the final volume helped a lot because he had to start tying up loose ends and couldn't start new side plots that wouldn't wrap up in this book. One of Erikson's strengths that a lot of fantasy books don't deliver on are his epic climaxes and he even made the payoff to the Shake storyline, which I was doubtful of leading to anything good, really kick-rear end.

I'm one of the few that actually liked Toll the Hounds. Not much, but I liked were Erikson was going with it's ideas and concepts. It was boring as gently caress, but interesting. From a weird point of view.

Dust of Dreams, at least for me, suffers from being the only book of the series that is left without a conclusion. The Shake and the Snake series only pay off in TCG. It can get a bit tiring to read, but I think it's worth for some badass fights and rapping mages later on.

My favorite is Midnight Tides, for me it's where the Erikson hit the right spot between worldbuilding, story, characters and pay off. It's also full of foreshadowing and you get to read Erikson raging at Capitalism.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011


"(...)and one thing Midnight Tides taught me was that once a certain system of human behaviour become entrenched, it acquires a power and will of its own, against which no single individual stands a chance."

Sounds like capitalism alright! :downsrim:

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

gvibes posted:

Re: Fener

So, Fener dies and his blood grant magical powers to everyone around/brings people back from the dead/etc. Is there some internally consistent reason why Fener's blood did this, but nothing similar happened when other gods were killed? Is there some master list of dead gods or something like that?

TCG ending spoilers:

This part still puzzles me. The conclusion I got was:

He was the God of War and countless people died in his name(In the name of war), him sacrificing/spilling his blood can be his way of attaining peace of mind. Now that he is in the mortal world he can see what he had "done" in the first hand. So instead of causing death and destruction he causes rebirth and regeneration.


Anyway, makes sense in my head.

zokie posted:

3. This will be better explained further in the book as well, but yes they are the same person which has been revealed. Why he actually became a god is revealed in TCG. It seems he exists at several places at once as different pieces of his being...

More TGC ending spoilers

They are indeed the same person, but at the same time they aren't. Dessembrae is the side of Dassem that accepted godhood, Traveler(Dassem Ultor) is the side that rejected it. So they are one, but split into two different identities. The one that roams Malazan world in search of vengeance and the other that hangs out at the god Hotel.

Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jun 11, 2011

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Leospeare posted:

Just finished TCG. Part of me wants to read anything but fantasy, while the other part wants to get GotM and start all over again.

I'm still digesting it all, but had one question from the epilogue:

When Fiddler is sitting on the dock fishing and the boy tells him there's no fish off that dock, but people say Shadowthrone's demon lives down there but Fiddler could never catch and kill that, and Fiddler says he doesn't want to kill it, just talk to it again... who or what are they talking about? Because I'm blanking.

I'm not sure they are talking about anything in particular. Just a legend kinda like the Loch Ness Monster.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Grammaton posted:

So Dassem was a god way before he ever started serving Kellanved?

I don't think he was.

He became a god during his tenure as Knight of High House Death. There was a line in some book(DG or MoI) that says that Dassem became bigger than the one he served.(Hood)

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Loving Life Partner posted:

I know Kyle is dumb, but what is this hostility against regular names in fantasy novels? I dun get it. Does it rip you out of the world? GRRM has Robb Stark and probably a few I'm forgetting, Sam is a main character in LOTR. Does anyone even notice if its spelled Kile? Or Kyill or something?

Sam is a short for Samwise. :eng101:

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

LtSmash posted:

Isn't his full name Ben Adaephon Delat? Thats how it's listed in both wikipedia and the malazan wiki. Does anyone happen to remember how his sister refers to him during the bit of their childhood we see?

On a similar subject I find Quick Ben suspicious during the forging of the bridgeburners. Whiskeyjack and one company of soldiers (who aren't yet the legendary bridgeburners) pursue 13 high mages across a wasteland and into Raraku. Despite the having knowledge of the land and probably the best assassin in their country as an infiltrator in the bridgeburners the mages never even try a confrontation. There's no mention of the bridgeburners having any mages with enough power to withstand a serious attack by the likes of Quick Ben (already noted to be a candidate for the Magi of High House Shadow). Even if there were a few who died before GotM Kalam would have been right next to them at the start of an ambush. Even if they expected heavy casualties it still seems like a better deal then all being soul shifted into Quick Ben. What did Quick Ben say or do to make them go along with it?

From Memories of Ice:

“ Whiskeyjack said nothing. He angled his mount past the assassin, approached the wizard.
‘One question,’ the wizard asked, his voice barely a whisper yet carrying clearly across the amphitheatre.
‘What?’
‘Who in Hood’s name are you?’
Whiskeyjack raised a brow. ‘Does it matter?’
‘We have crossed Raraku entire.’ the wizard said. ‘Other side of these cliffs is the trail leading down to G’danisban. You chased me across the Holy Desert…gods, no man is worth that, not even me!’

‘There were eleven others in your company, wizard.’
Adaephon Delat shrugged ‘I was the youngest – the healthiest – by far. Yet now, finally, even my body has given up. I can go no further.’ His dark eyes reached past Whiskeyjack ‘Commander, your soldiers…’
‘What of them?’
‘They are more…and less. No longer what they once were. Raraku, sir, has burned the bridges of their pasts, one and all – it’s all gone.’ He met Whiskeyjack’s eyes in wonder. ‘And they are yours. Heart and soul. They are yours.’ …
‘…The game we played Whiskeyjack? Only one of survival. At first. We didn’t think you’d make it, to be perfectly honest. We thought Raraku would come to claim you – I suppose she did, in a way, though not in a way I would have anticipated. What you and your soldiers have become…’ He shook his head.
‘What we have become,’ Whiskeyjack said ‘you have shared. You and Kalam...’

…Grimacing, Whiskeyjack twisted further to survey his soldiers. The array of faces could have been carved from stone. A company, culled from the army’s cast-offs, now a bright, hard core. ‘Gods,’ he whispered under his breath, ‘what have we made here?’

The first blood-letting engagement of the Bridgeburners was the retaking of G’danisban – a mage, an assassin, and seventy soldiers who swept into a rebel stronghold of four hundred desert warriors and crushed them in a single night.”


I think the mages were afraid of them, and opted to run than fight.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Meme Emulator posted:

Is this the series of books that literally has a main character named "Darkblade" or am I mistaken

You are mistaken and I think that's Warhammer.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Masonity posted:

I'm either misunderstanding your claim, or it's totally bogus from my perspective.

Are you telling me that Kruppe the character could have delivered Whiskeyjack's lines and led the bridgeburners? That Pust acts and speaks the way that Rake does, and would have been fine as the leader of the Andii rather than high magi / priest of shadow?

Ganoes Paran couldn't have led the bonehunters. Tavore would have been totally out of place in Whiskeyjack's place in book 3. No-one but Coltaine could have played out the Chain of Dogs storyline.

None of the major characters could have been shuffled. Some of the minor ones may have worked in different roles, but the stars of the series were distinct. The only swap I could see working would have been Pust and Shadowthrone.

I think by same voice he means, that the characters are all "saying" the same thing. They are all created from the same philosophical thought or theme that Erikson is writing about. After awhile some characters do feel the same, cause in a level they are the same.
Not that Wiskeyjack could say the lines of Kruppe, or that Pust acts the same way as Rake, but that most of them are based on the same idea.

An example and probably the one that stands out the most: The soldiers in the series are identical. You can say that Smiles and Bottle have a different characterization, but their cores are the same and they are there to just repeat what an already existing character was saying. This gets tiring after awhile cause there are so many, and Erikson wants you to like every single one and have some emotional response to them when they die or survive, but for most readers they find themselves in trouble to care about, as they can't distinguish them.

Being a Malazan fan, I will agree that characters are Erikson's biggest weakness. Most of them feel like clones and a lot are walking philosophical ramblings.(Especially characters introduced later on) In many occasions I have the impression that Erikson is more worried in creating a concept and developing an idea than real characters. For example in Toll the Hounds.

I forgot the child's name, but it's the kid that gets lost in the mines.

The reason that this child character exists is purely on allegory levels. His story mimics the story of Anomander Rake and his brothers, and on a whole, the story of the Tiste Andii.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Juaguocio posted:

Ugh, Harllo. His story was basically one big red herring. He meets the busted-up T'lan Imass miner and it seems like something interesting is going to happen, and then the Imass gets eaten by the Azath without us even seeing it occur. The allegorical aspect of the Harllo plotline hadn't occurred to me, because it seems completely pointless. The Tiste Andii story has enough metaphorical depth on its own that I don't understand why Erikson felt the need to complicate it further with goofy connections like that.

I suppose Harllo does tie in with Murillio's storyline, but I'm ambivalent about that whole part as well. It provides some heartwrenching moments, certainly, but I also feel that it could have been completely excised without harming TtH at all.


One big allegory:

Harllo abandoned by his mother. The Tiste Andii feel abandoned by Mother Dark.

Harllo has to learn to live with his half brother, Snell, in an environment not his own.(His aunts house, if I'm not mistaken)
The Andii are forced to adapt to the life in Malazan plane, more specifically they see themselves drawn into conflicts not their own.(The Tiste Edur and the K'Chain Che'Malle.

Harllo is "back stabbed" by Snell a person he though he could trust. Silchas Ruin is back stabbed by Scabandari Bloodeye, his Allie.

During his stay in mines when he talks to the dumb worker he says wonders about Darujistan, but it's nostalgia, in the end he even tries to tell him that it's not wonderful. Endest(Was it him?) talking to Caladan about the wonders of Kharkanas, though he deep down he knows it's all nostalgia talking and he can't remember the horrible times.

Harllo in the end is accepted by his mother. Anomander Rake at the end of Toll the Hounds reunites with Mother Dark and opens the way back to Kharkanas.

Both Scabandari and the child whose name I forgot, end up in "Houses. Scabandari in an Azath, the child in the Butcher's House.


There are other points in Harllo's story that reinforce this train logic, but I seem to have forgotten a lot about TtH. Toll the Hounds is about family, and a prevailing theme in the series, motherhood. Lot's of the plotlines are mirrors to one another, and most of the characters in it, to some degree feel lost cause they didn't had a family, or a mother as a presence in their life, or they no longer feel part of their old family.

Like Cutter no longer being recognized by his old "family", Envy and Spite daddy issues, Nimander and his Tiste Andii and so on.

I find Toll the Hounds the most interesting book in the series thematically, but by the heavens, it's very boring, dry and long. The ending is amazing though.

Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jul 5, 2011

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Hondo82 posted:


I don't know what ICE's next book is supposed to be about but I hope it focuses more on the Crimson Guard.

It will be in Darujhistan.

Karsa and the Tyrant basically

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Sir Bruce posted:

Man, Night of Knives sucks.

In Lore chat, how on earth were people ignorant of Kellanved and Dancer ascending into Shadow? There was a huge fight in the middle of Malaz city but everyone believed the official line for several years.

In a related issue, one big problem I have with Erickson so far (through Midnight Tides) is that he falls into the fantasy pitfall that once a secret has been revealed to one character (and therefore us), it is no longer a real secret in the world and therefore any random new character will likely know the secret for no reason. This happened in the above spoiler, we were in the dark for a book or two about Shadowthrone and Cotillion, but after we discover that they are Kellanved/Dancer, then every new God, Claw, ascendant, mage, Tiste Andii, or whatever also happen to know this crucial fact. A related issue is that Quick Ben is a Mary Sue of random historical knowledge.


I think Erikson was making the reveal that Shadowthrone and Cotillion are Kellanved and Dancer right in Gardens of the Moon. If you go back there's a bunch of clues and lines about it. The book even opens with a poem that says this.
But nobody picked that up, so you have a character telling it out in cold in the second book, making it sound like a major plot twist instead of something natural.Something that a lesser character would not be clued in, but ascendants, gods, powerful mages and the reader was already aware.


But yes it's a bit weird.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Vanilla Mint Ice posted:

When you think about it, there really are some people with silly amount of power that could've single handily influenced the story if they had decided to act...

Gothos freezes the world, stopping the Crippled God and the Malazan Empire dead in their tracks. Book ends on page one, and page two is a sight of Karsa sitting cross-legged on the frozen wasteland with his chin on his hands.

To bad he is locked inside an Azath.

Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jul 24, 2011

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Juaguocio posted:

I don't know about that. The end of DG suggests that he inhabits the Azath willingly, and in TtH he holds the builder of the Azath captive, and seems to be able to travel between the different Houses.

Nah. He is stuck. But because he is Gothos he managed to find a way to cheat the system. That's why he can move between houses, and visit the dead azath in TtH. He wanted to discover the power of the Azath and use it for himself, but in the process he got trapped inside of it. It's part of his folly.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

A Nice Boy posted:

The problem for me is that this all sounds like poo poo directly lifted from Erikson's books. Jaghut Tyrant! Check. Some sort of Throne that bestows power! Double check. Ragtag Malazan army? Got that!

Seriously, I know they created the world together and all, but it sounds like I'm reading a synopsis from some bizarro "What if?" version of GOTM.

Well the problem with your problem, is that stuff is what Erikson left for ICE to write about. His books probably suffer from having to follow up storylines from Malazan Book of the Fallen directly. Like the Tyrant. That poo poo was in GotM and TtH but Erikson didn't get around to it, so his friend has to finish it up.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

A Nice Boy posted:

Yeah, that ONE aspect (which, honestly didn't need to be readdressed. Raest getting his kitty was a fine ending to his story). Where do the talk about this other throne in Erikson's books?

Actually the Tyrants they are speaking is another Tyrant not Raest. The old ruler of Darujhistan which was called...the Tyrant. Blame Erikson for deciding to name him exactly like Raest. Thought it seems that he is another Jaghut. Which sounds a repeat of GotM.
As for the other part, it is mentioned in Toll the Hounds, but they just talk about pilgrims coming to see the wreckage, no mention for thrones or new islands.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

A Nice Boy posted:

Hrm, I didn't get the impression from that blurb that the "new throne" was Itkovian's grave but that'd make it more interesting.

The actual pieces that fell from Moon Spawn. There's a brief mention, of people looking around for parts that fell during the attack, and trying to find where it sank to see if it has treasure, but they never mention islands and thrones. It was a just one passage in TtH, to flesh out the setting.

The blurb really sounds pretty poor, especially this throne business. These ICE's novels should be really about Iron Bars and his chums kicking rear end all over the place. Not a dude named Grift trying to find something. :(

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Daric posted:

Yeah, I was going to read that and then I scrolled down and realize too many words

Anyway, I made it up to Toll The Hounds before but only got to about 120 pages in before I stopped. I think reading all the books one after the other burned me out. But I finished A Dance With Dragons and Ghost Story so now I'm back on this.

Just made it to the start of "Book Two" and OH MY GOD KARSA ORLONG MOTHERFUCKERS

If the books were less Anomander Rake brooding and more Karsa Orlong and his Malazan friends, I would be so happy.

There's more brooding. A lot of it.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

The reason Rake took Dragnipur is quite simple. He hated Draconus, so for Rake the ultimate irony was to kill Draconus with his own creation. The actual purpose of Dragnipur was oblivious to him when he took it. He just thought Dragnipur was a funky sword.

The sword was created to save Kurald Galain from getting eaten by Chaos. Draconus was just one big nastie and he tended to kill everyone who crossed him, so the ultimate fate of those killed by the sword fitted his persona and his goal. He didn't expect Rake to take it.

Rake on the other hand had troubles with it(Draconus comments this right on the first book! That he is too merciful), and chaos was finally catching up with the wagon. This then leads Rake to strike a deal with Hood, wait for Dassem to show up, get himself killed with his own sword, end up inside Dragnipur and sacrificing himself to open the way.

Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Aug 24, 2011

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Wallet posted:

Every time I peek into this thread I'm re-convinced that letting Esslemont's books rot on a shelf is better than actually reading them. Maybe I'll build up the courage to find out some day.

Speaking of spin-off Malazan books, though, has anyone read the Bauchelain and Korbal Broach stuff? Is it worth reading?

If you liked the two characters in Memories of Ice and SE's deadpan humour, than yeah they worth it.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Though Memories of Ice spoils a major plotline of Deadhouse Gates, not even half way.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Pokeylope posted:

Deadhouse Gates is one of the best books in the series I've read so far, and while you may be able to read MoI and understand it without reading DG, I can't say for certain that the plot of DG won't be spoiled for you. I don't know what Electronico is refering to, but I'll take his word for it and assume DG is spoiled in MoI.

I'm talking about that it's revealed fairly early in MoI, that the Empress is behind it all. In Deadhouse Gates it'sthe conclusion of the journey of Kalam and Fiddler and the book. Not to mention the actual Chain of Dogs.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Abalieno posted:

Also another aspect I was thinking about and that it was important for me to understand certain things.

Without going into spoiler territory: the Azath, Mother Dark, K'rul and Burn are each considered to be some kind of "origin of the universe".

So how do they fit together? How can they be coherent with each other, or who of them came before the others? How is possible that Burn's Sleep started in the middle of the history of men, instead of being its origin?

I'm half sure none of those guys are actually part of the "Origin of the Universe". Except for maybe the Azath, but that's not really an entity.(Or is it? DUNN DUNNN DUNNN!) A character in GotM calls Burn younger than him. Raest With MD and K'rull it gets weird, but K'rull came after her.

Also most likely spoilers for the entire series I think Hood is one of the oldest creatures in the series. Probably more so than K'rull.

Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Sep 23, 2011

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Vanilla Mint Ice posted:

No he's not, he was just a king of their people before he settled into that role. There were other people who can even recall their war.

Now that you mention yeah, I forgot about the soletaken dude and a host of other dudes. There's just a bunch of events and characters that are as old as gently caress that it's hard to try to wrap your mind around it.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Popular Human posted:

To add a perspective to the discussion, I read GotM about a year ago, and while I liked it somewhat, enough things rubbed me the wrong way about it (mostly how the last hundred pages felt like a protracted DBZ battle) that I didn't pick up Deadhouse Gates until two weeks ago, and just finished it today.

Goddamn does it ever get better.

I don't think i've ever read a fantasy novel with an ending that made me so angry, and so looking forward to the next book. I'm in love with series and i'm definitely looking forward to reading through it and figuring out what the gently caress is going on. A couple spoiler-y questions:

1. What was the whole deal with Panek's backstory, the T'lan Imass were crucifying children or something? Or did it go back to that clutch of magic Duiker stumbled across where he got caught up in the one tribe murdering the other one?

2. What the gently caress are Forkrul Assail? Don't answer if it's a giant, multi-book spoiler.

3. In the epilogue, were those gremlin things collecting Duiker's body, and are they going to resurrect him? Just a yes/no - I just would hate for that to be the last we see of him. He deserves awesome revenge.

1- I actually don't remember anything about that character. :v:

2- You will have to wait for that one. :ssh:

3- You really want to know? Yes

4- They were T'lan Imass and they were hunting someone. Who that someone is will become apparent books later. And so is the ship they were on. The guy that sacrifices himself, closes the wound the crazy mage made in the Warren. Then Kulp uses his powers to get them out, and wake up an undead dragon in the process.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Popular Human posted:

That makes a lot more sense, thanks. I guess part of my confusion stems from the fact that I don't really understand what the T'lan Imass are, but I figure that's part of the fun and will be explained later.

RE: #1, he's the creepy kid who rides around on Apt, and apparently can see Cotillion even when he's shrouded in his shadow warren or whatever. Cote asks him where he came from, and he tells him about how he was crucified and Cotillion actually acts a little bummed out, which was surprising.

Well the T'lan Imass have been explained, not well though. You had Tool in the first book. The basic gist is that there was this race formerly known as the Imass, and they used to be slaves to the Jaghut, and one day the Imass said "gently caress you assholes!" and started a war with the Jaghut. At the end of the war the Imass formed a pact between themselves, they would never rest again until the world was rid of Tyrants(Jaghut). OF course this did not go according to plan.

As for the child Well Habbi already answer. But does the Child actually see Cotillion when he's shrouded or is Cotillion not shrouded at all. :tinfoil:

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Habibi posted:

Didn't the Imass only start poo poo when the Jaghut tyrants arose in the first place, though?

Yes the story is that the Jaghut Tyrants came to them and acted as gods and enslaved them all, after some time some of the Imass started to realize that the Jaghut tyrants were kinda of a fraud. But for the T'lan Imass every Jaghut is a Tyrant.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Abalieno posted:

I don't know if anyone is interested here, but I'm going through some ABSURD mind bending theories by linking some of Erikson's ideas in the series (in particular the last lines of House of Chains), with Constructionism, Kabbalah, Castaneda's work, "Gödel, Escher, Bach", von Foerster and Niklas Luhmann.

It's crazy because you come out with theories that "explain" what goes on in the Malazan world, only that these theories are actually theories made to explain "ours".

It's as if I'm saying: Malazan mythology is well alive and REAL.

(think a bit of David Foster Wallace + Wittgenstein, The Broom of The System, where Lenore Beadsman, a character, was "aware" of being a fictional character in the book. And where DFW core purpose was to examine if it was actually possible to make a factual distinction between fictional and real world, which also is essentially Wittgenstein pushed to extreme radicalism)


Geez mate I only came for the zombie dinosaurs with swords for arms.

Either way Kruppe would be a character that seems(or is) aware that it's life is part of a story of fiction. So much that he gets to narrate a part of it, in a very omnipresent way.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

33rd Degree Idiot posted:

Speaking of which, this brings up a good question: Outside of the Malazan series, which novels or series (of any genre) would you say are (even) better on a re-read?

Any book by Gene Wolfe. Especially Book of the New Sun.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Metonymy posted:

I get who Shadowthrone is. Being "Shadowthrone" in "High House Shadow" with dressed-up hellhounds and a bestbuddy who is the Patron of Assassins isn't "death aspected"? Every single thing about that connotes death.

Not really no as there is already a House of Death. And a god of death.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Metonymy posted:

Your username notwithstanding, I don't get the feeling you've hung out with many marines or soldiers or anyone in a position of martial authority. People in those positions rarely says twee trite poo poo like "It's so hard to find good help these days". Characters in anime do.

It's hard to imagine an "ascendant" god-like being speaking like that, which is what I mean by "bad" characterization. It's not that there is literally nothing expository in the books, it's that it has the arbitrary tenor of pulp fiction and cartoons for children.

Who says Shadowthrone is a character of true authority? He is a scoundrel and a liar, he is the true personification of what he represents, shadows and illusions.

Aren't you projecting your own ideas of what a god should act out?

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Habibi posted:

Veering completely and wildly off-topic, but what notable lines does early WoT have?

"I'll ask Perrin/Rand/Matt about girls. He knows how to deal with them!"

Unforgettable stuff.

(Though Erikson is also guilty of repetition of phrases. Wave of magic and whatever.)

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Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

dmccaff posted:

I'm almost finished the first book, quick question regarding Oponn: I'm a bit puzzled at why they 'control' people and items. Like they have control or whatever over Parans sword - what's the big deal? What does it matter to Paran if they have his sword? I realise he was able to injure Gear with it because of Oponn pushing good luck or whatever, and the same with Crokus. I just don't get why they're doing it, and why everyone is so afraid of them. Have I missed something or will it be revealed later? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I think I'm just spoiled after coming from ASoIaF where I'm fed paragraphs of infodumps.

They doing it because they are jerks. There's more to it, but that's the basic.

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