|
02-6611-0142-1 posted:Just finished Stonewielder. Enjoyed it a bunch, except for Kiska. loving hell. In the first book, you could at least say "oh, she's an inexperienced idiot, that's why she doesn't know anything". Kiska is just a terrible character all around. Kyle improved so much in Stonewielder that I had high hopes for her as well, but no such luck. Could have been worse, though- ICE could have brought Ghelel back.
|
#
¿
Mar 3, 2011 02:37
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 19, 2024 23:27 |
|
|
Grillad skinkmacka posted:Also, I finished a reread of TCG. (Spoiler is close to the ending)gently caress the part with Gesler and Bent at the spire, poor doggie. (TCG spoilers throughout!) But Kalyth adopts him at the end, and Hood "adopts" Roach (or maybe it's the other way around) so the doggies are happy! Yayyyyy!  I was very satisfied with the way that storyline turned out, as well as most of the others. Fiddler surviving, Crokus and Apsalar getting back together and Tool's family reuniting were all big moments for me.There weren't many deaths that really hit me hard. I expected most of the Bonehunters to be killed so it was nice to see many of my favourites survive, though of course I felt it when Stormy, Gesler, Cuttle and Corabb died. Poor, poor Mappo, though. I don't think there's a  big enough for him. The pairing of Ublala and Icarium, however, is just too perfect.The way the Perish went out seemed like a waste but I suppose that's one of the points Erikson was making about them- ultimately the gods they worship are bestial in nature and will gladly devour each other if given the chance. TCG had so much awesome stuff and massive setpieces that it's hard to pick favourites. Quick Ben and Kalam kicking rear end and taking names, the Jaghut, T'lan Imass, K'Chain and Toblakai all teaming up to fight the Assail, the Watch whupping dragon after dragon, Torrent killing Olar Ethil and Karsa loving CHOPPING FENER'S GIANT MANIFESTING SKY HEAD IN HALF HOLY gently caress were all moments that had me pumping my fist. One thing I find interesting is that TCG appears to set up the major opposition for ICE's future novels. Skinner and the Disavowed have apparently gone rogue and taken the piece of the CG they stole at the end of Stonewielder for themselves. The CG is not entirely whole when he is sent back to his home realm so I guess Skinner's piece is going to continue to function and give him power. It'll be interesting to see what kind of alliances he might try to forge- maybe the Disavowed will go to Assail?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 7, 2011 03:10
|
|
|
A Nice Boy posted:I thought it was that he was the weapon that no one dare uses...Like mutual nuclear annihilation today. Once his rage awakens, there's basically no stopping him. There was some Icarium suspense at the end when Calm went to use him...She probably could have won the day if not for Mappo and Ublala. I think you're right. In DoD (these are TCG spoilers) Feather Witch casts her tiles while Icarium's "ghosts" are trying to figure out how to use Kalse Rooted. One of the new tiles she comes up with is two-sided: Fury/Starwheel. Fury is what its name suggests, but Feather Witch says that Starwheel is "time unraveled," or something to that extent. This new tile is obviously Icarium, who has a pivotal role in the emerging pantheon. If we combine this little tidbit with what Calm says to Mappo about the true purpose of Icarium in the plans of the Nameless Ones, it seems like Icarium is more like a force of nature than anything else. Elsewhere in TCG someone describes his power as coming directly from Chaos; apparently when his self "shatters" he becomes a conduit of some sort. Since Kilmandaros is now dead I wonder if Icarium is going to now completely take her place as the God of rage and blind destruction. Or maybe he already had? In any case, he's very close to Icarias, which Mappo realized was what he had been seeking their entire time together. It's going to be very interesting if he does indeed find it in a future volume, especially since Badalle saw that the heart of Icarias was shattered in DoD. Juaguocio fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Mar 8, 2011 |
|
#
¿
Mar 8, 2011 03:02
|
|
|
Another great thing about TCG is that it actually made me interested in Erikson's Kharkanas series. I was kind of ambivalent about it before, but TCG introduces a lot of new information about the Tiste that really has me excited.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 9, 2011 00:39
|
|
|
kazil posted:TCG gently caress the Tiste Andii. How many Shake had to sit there and die on the first shore before those fuckers show up at the last goddamn second with overwhelming force? And the whole time, Sand is sitting there crying about something or other on the throne. Anything that gets to be 100,000 years old should just go ahead and end it. I have a similar perspective about Nimander and Co., but they won't be the focus of the Kharkanas books (well, I imagine, anyway), and characters like Rake won't be so world-weary since the setting will be far in the past. The flashback part in TCG where Rake tells the Hust legion that they are going to their deaths to seal the gate was really cool, and I'd love to read more about what actually happened when Rake killed Tiam, Mother Dark turned away, Emurlahn was sundered and all that other weird stuff happened.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 9, 2011 11:33
|
|
|
Junk Science posted:Then don't do it. It is a step up from NoK, but it's still barely on par with a mediocre Forgotten Realms novelization, only less entertaining. You will likely regret the time wasted. That's massively underrating ICE's writing in my opinion. Even second-rate Malazan is superior to any of the garbage spewed out under the Forgotten Realms name, and ICE did a much better job with RotCG than NoK, so much so in fact that I would consider it his proper debut. It's akin to GotM in many ways, being pretty rough around the edges and a bit slow to get going, but once the action picks up you won't be able to tear yourself away. Ghelel is horrible though. Christ almighty, what was he thinking?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 16, 2011 06:23
|
|
|
the periodic fable posted:i disagree, i honestly think he's a pretty bad author by any standard. i gave RotCG an honest shot but 400 pages in and he still hasn't made me care one whit about anything. i'm going to spoil myself on the highlights of the rest of his books unless somebody comes along and says that a given book is actually on par with the rest of the series. Ah, but it takes ICE a very, very long time to get going. Too long, really, as most of the comments on RotCG indicate. The convergence at the end is something else, though. Another great Fid moment from TCG: Whiskeyjack tells Fid he's "always been the best of us." Sorry, I think there's something in my eye.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 17, 2011 00:54
|
|
|
Those are actually two distinct moments if I'm not mistaken. Fiddler is not present in the one you mentioned.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 17, 2011 03:51
|
|
|
Yeah, Picker went on a weird spirit quest after getting hurt by the assassins who attacked K'rul's Bar. Apparently the torcs she wore in MoI marked her as chosen by the gods of war, because they gave her the message to give to Karsa. Which raises the question of whether or not Fener willingly allowed himself to be sacrificed...
|
|
#
¿
Mar 19, 2011 03:23
|
|
|
Cervixalot posted:Also, i'm only about 1/3 to 1/2 through TCG, but don't they refer to him as Ryadd Eleiss throughout the book? I was confused about that at first, but then realized that its his eleint name, or something. Silchas gave him that name in DoD.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 22, 2011 22:20
|
|
|
Hero Pussy posted:Things: Hero Pussy posted:TCG What the gently caress Nefarious Bredd what is this what is he I've also heard a theory that he is actually Crump but that's been debunked (Crump is tall, Bredd is short, etc.) Hero Pussy posted:TCG Is Grub... somehow part Coltaine or not? Hero Pussy posted:I don't even remember what book Can someone remind me who Tulas Shorn is, again, and what the relationship is/was to Silchas?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 26, 2011 23:33
|
|
|
Here's my condensed take on ICE: I think we all agree that Night of Knives is bad. For completionists only. Return of the Crimson Guard is almost as good as Gardens of the Moon. The beginning can be a slog but I'd say the payoff is worth it. Stonewielder is better than GotM but not as good as Erikson's other books. As long as you don't go into it expecting an answer to every question and a connection to everything in Erikson's books you will enjoy it. Plus, it has Manask, and you wouldn't want to miss him, would you?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 1, 2011 01:42
|
|
|
Interesting note about Jhistals (I think this is from DoD but I could be mistaken): Jhistal is the First Empire name for the god of the sea. The Tiste Edur name for that god, which translates to Bloodmane, is Mael. Kind of funny that he's always referred to by that name... I mostly agree with the negative comments about the overall scope of the series. There are such powerful, fully-built-up, emotional climaxes in books 2 and 3 that the climax of TCG seems a bit flat by comparison. I felt that the overall Crippled God arc worked out fine, but the Liosan, Forkrul Assail and Kolansii were not developed nearly enough to be the opponents that the finale needed, and as a result many of the battle scenes lacked the intensity of others earlier in the series. I think my largest criticism of the Malazan series as a whole is that it seems as though Erikson and ICE felt the need to include as much of their source material as possible when they could have done a better job with less.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 1, 2011 23:07
|
|
|
zokie posted:I think this is wrong, regarding what a Jhistal is. A Jhistal priest is the title of a priest performing blood sacrifices, and could apply to any (elder) god that wants blood for sacrifice DoD posted:Felash tapped the amber tube against her teeth, thinking. "Why is the sea so thirsty?" coyo7e posted:I guess I was mistaken in thinking that he just had a thing against jhistal and that there was some back-story to it. And also, how was Duiker aware of the priest being a jhistal and/or the priest's intention to sacrifice the entire army, in essence? Hmm.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 2, 2011 02:21
|
|
|
1554 posted:A quick reassurance that I have this correct in my head and a little help. I am currently 3/4 the way through, Book Four: House of Chains. Fiddler never died. You're confusing a few different characters here, and I'm honestly not sure which ones. TheBeardedCrazy posted:It could also bethe Edur that gets sacrificed by Hannan Mosag who then travels the ocean floor and talks to Knuckles and Kilimandaros. This. It's Bruthen Trana, who we last saw trying to find his way back to Killy and Setch's Azath house in RG.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 2, 2011 23:52
|
|
|
Fuzzy Mammal posted:Recent Q&A with ICE, on his upcoming novels and other stuff: http://elitistbookreviews.blogspot.com/2011/03/interview-with-ian-c-esslemont.html Good stuff indeed, though I hope ICE comes up with some better titles for his upcoming books.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 6, 2011 03:12
|
|
|
HeroOfTheRevolution posted:I do like the maybe not so big reveal that Shadowthrone was ICE's character and Cotillion is Erikson's. I think phrasing it as 'post-modern fantasy' is a little much, though. Cotillion is a perfect fit for Erikson. They both seem to dwell overmuch on the negative side of life and the consequences of their own actions, and both could use some cheering up. I was kind of confused by that interview too- Erikson seems to ignore several questions in order to make grandiose statements (which I must confess I skipped over- sorry Steve, but I've had just about enough of your verbosity at this point), and he seems to have a pretty lofty opinion of himself and his writing. "Post-modern fantasy?" Give me a break. Malazan is good, but it's not that good. Juaguocio fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Apr 9, 2011 |
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2011 23:35
|
|
|
quote != edit
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2011 23:37
|
|
|
Azure_Horizon posted:while I'd say that postmodern literature is pretty much the best you could read of the Western canon of literature, I think he meant that Malazan is good, but it's not good enough to create a whole new genre or anything. Pretty much this. There are parts of the series that are obviously influenced by postmodernism, but there are also parts that are clearly taken straight from the author's GURPS campaigns, with no subtext beyond "here's some cool fantasy stuff." I'm not trying to put down Malazan excessively here because I do think Erikson has accomplished something extraordinary with the series, but he ain't exactly Thomas Pynchon.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 10, 2011 10:00
|
|
|
HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Only if you have no appreciation for its contribution to feminism and as a harsh criticism of the rigid class structure of the 19th century. Or if you haven't read Middlemarch.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 10, 2011 21:22
|
|
|
Abalieno posted:As I said the meta-narrative is not limited to two RPG characters, but it is thematic, about structure, use of point of view and so on. It's done on multiple levels and has a number of layers. When Erikson is able to pull this sort of thing off it can be nothing short of breathtaking (see Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice), but the problem as I see it is that he falls short of achieving that kind of unity more often than not. Hieronymous Alloy pointed out that Erikson's style sometimes feels like a disjointed combination of a number of other authors, and I agree; he simply tries to capture too many different styles, too many different tones, and the result is a mess in many cases. As many reviewers and posters have mentioned, the massive scope of Malazan is its greatest strength and its greatest weakness.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 12, 2011 22:13
|
|
|
Abalieno posted:No one said that Bakker writes stuff as widely appreciated and accessible as Abercrombie. In fact I said he's far more vicious and brutal compared to Erikson. I guess if you like to read books that are "uncompromising" then Bakker is a good bet, but I like books that are "enjoyable to read," and I hated The Darkness That Comes Before. I have no problem with violence, rape and philosophical masturbation, but I also like having some excitement or some levity to break up the grimness, and I found none of that in Bakker's writing. I'm sure he's a nice guy in person, but on the page he comes across as a cold, humourless academic. I thought about reading the rest of the series, but after I saw the ridiculous language-tree appendix at the back of the first volume I realized what his priorities were and moved on. I'll take Erikson or Abercrombie any day, because they seem like they know how to laugh.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 15, 2011 04:04
|
|
|
I doubt Erikson will ever give a concrete answer about the origins of his universe, though he drops some pretty big hints. At the very beginning of DoD when Heboric is considering the patterns that appear to him as he returns to life at the bottom of the sea, he has a vision of an immense star field in deep space and realizes that each star is a sun like the one he knows. This classic "eye-opening" vision makes me think that Erikson ultimately has a "scientific" view of the universe in mind, and that Warrens are simply other worlds or the connections between them. The Tiste peoples are not native to Malazworld so we cannot assume that any of their mythology represents the literal truth of the universe's origins. It may be that Mother Dark has been around longer than most other deities, but the fundamental forces that she and her ilk represent exist regardless of the worship of sentient beings, so I think she is merely a powerful, persistent cultural creation of the Tiste Andii. I don't think she existed in Malazworld until the Tiste invasions, but we will no doubt find out the real answer once Erikson writes the Kharkanas books. As for Burn, my feeling is that she is the most recent and persistent manifestation of the Malazworld "mother earth" character, who has had as many names as there are languages. In RotCG Ereko calls her the Sorceress, and suggests that she is the power behind all things. EDIT: While I'm at it I might as well respond to this: Abalieno posted:Bakker as I said is the eye-opener. Someone who suddenly awakened and saw the terror of reality. There's no way back: It's funny to me that you see this as Bakker's strong point, because I feel that Erikson addresses many of the same themes, and does a better job of it. It comes down to a fundamental difference of opinion, really- do you see Bakker's focusing on misery at the expense of fun as a good thing, or a bad thing? For me personally, fantasy still needs to have elements of wonder, romance and fairy tale for me to enjoy it. It may sound odd to praise Erikson for including these elements when he most often seems preoccupied with horror, death, rape and suffering, but he is also able to write the kind of stirring, romantic stuff that got me into fantasy in the first place (I am using "romantic" in the sense of Romanticism if you're wondering). Erikson's strength is that he is able to evoke the kind of cosmic horror that you describe, and also write stuff that's just plain fun. As for your recommended reading list, there are a few names there I'll have to look into, though I would hesitate to describe Rothfuss as "mature." Juaguocio fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Apr 16, 2011 |
|
#
¿
Apr 16, 2011 01:43
|
|
|
adamarama posted:I'm about 1/3 way through Stonewielder and some of the characters know the Queen of Dreams as the Sorceress. She is apparently just a living mortal, who has acquired immense power. The Queen of Dreams may be linked to Burn in some ways though, as Burn is sleeping. Pure speculation, of course My bad, you're right. What Ereko calls Burn (or whoever) is the Enchantress.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2011 06:08
|
|
|
qbert posted:I just finished Dust of Dreams and am about to start The Crippled God. Something does happen at the end of Stonewielder that ties into the end of TCG. It's nothing huge, but it will make you go "oh, cool!" when you read about it in TCG. Or, at least, it did for me.
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2011 01:16
|
|
|
CrazedLlama posted:Also, I really want to learn more about the Seguleh. Anyone know if Esslemont or Erikson plan on writing more about them in future novels? I'm guessing they'll figure into ICE's Darujhistan novel at the very least. I don't imagine they'll have any part to play in Erikson's Kharkanas trilogy but maybe they'll eventually show up in his Toblakai books. They do appear in RotCG as well, if you haven't read that already.
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2011 06:39
|
|
|
Loving Life Partner posted:You don't know anybody's real name, aside from Kalam, WJ and Quick. I don't think we know Whiskeyjack's real name. Iskar Jarak was given to him by the Anibar. Loving Life Partner posted:Aside from the marines, I'd say Erikson is like 1 for 2 on names. I can forgive generic fantasy names, Trull, Rhulad, et al, then there are dumb ones, like Fear, Rake, Bugg, every Watered/Pure etc., then there are a host of decent names, Karsa, Gothos, Fisher Kel Tath, etc. So whatever. I'm with you on Fear, but Bugg is a perfect name for that character. Tehol even says he likes it better than his real name. Rake is kind of goofy on its own, but Anomandaris Dragnipurake is pretty cool. I generally like the marines' names, though some of them are kind of stupid. I think the most successful names (can a name be said to be successful?) are the really ancient ones like Kilmandaros, Icarium and Dessimbelackis, because there's just something about them that evokes antiquity to me. One of the most annoying things about this series is that a lot of characters have very similar sounding names, which only adds to the general confusion.
|
|
#
¿
May 11, 2011 23:45
|
|
|
On a similar note, I noticed that there's a Tattersall Drive in Victoria, BC, where Erikson lived for a while.
|
|
#
¿
May 19, 2011 07:06
|
|
|
angerbeet posted:Or read a real book to offset the terrible fantasy balance in my life. Might want to steer clear of RotCG then, as it definitely veers into "terrible fantasy" territory a number of times. It's worth reading if you like the Malazan world and want to hear more about some of your favourite characters, but ICE's writing leaves a lot to be desired.
|
|
#
¿
May 25, 2011 07:44
|
|
|
qbert posted:Finally finished TCG last night. Just starting to hit me what a ridiculously massive series this was that just came to an end. qbert posted:Did not really understand Karsa's role at the end there. How could anyone have possibly known Gessler and Stormy would inadvertently call Fener down during the Spire battle, and instruct Karsa on what to do to kill the god? Even I don't buy that Shadowthrone and Cotillion could have predicted that. I guess I don't mind Karsa's tiny role since I know Erikson's gonna write a whole other trilogy wrapping up his storyline. qbert posted:Kinda wish Trull Sengar would've made an appearance, what with so many dead folk popping back up. Or was he supposed to be the lantern guide at the end there with Mael and K'rul? qbert posted:Where did Draconus go? What about his daughters? qbert posted:Why did Gruntle and Tool's sister fight? Didn't really understand that whole thing. qbert posted:Why did Cotillion stab TCG in the back? It was from Koryk's POV and meant to look like some sort of betrayal, but I guess it was to help him actually go home? If someone could clarify this that'd be great.
|
|
#
¿
May 25, 2011 22:56
|
|
|
Abalieno posted:What is this central idea that drives the whole series and makes it something "finished"? What is the concept, idea, theme or character that unifies it? Archaeology. The entire Malazan series is fantasy, history, comedy, tragedy, poetry and whatever else filtered through Erikson's archaeological/anthropological lens. This is one of the series' greatest strengths, but is also its greatest weakness in my opinion.
|
|
#
¿
May 29, 2011 00:48
|
|
|
angerbeet posted:Y'know, Gothos is kind of a dick. Gothos is the best. Minor TCG spoiler: I was disappointed that he didn't figure into DoD/TCG at all, especially since he seems to be connected to the Azath just like Shadowthrone and Cotillion.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 6, 2011 04:15
|
|
|
Levitate posted:I'm only on book six Let us know how you feel when you're done with it all. I personally feel that the series starts to get weaker with Reaper's Gale.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 8, 2011 06:19
|
|
|
I can accept names like Sam and Will in a fantasy setting because they sound fairly old-timey, and can be abbreviations of longer names that don't come from our world (in the LotR example, Sam is short for Samwise and not Samuel), but Kyle just sounds really goofy for some reason. It's like having a Knight of a High House named Mike.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 2, 2011 02:58
|
|
|
LtSmash posted:Quick Ben's name kinda sticks out, but so does a lot else about him so that could well be intentional. I haven't heard anything about Kyle that mentions the oddness of Ben so the name is kinda strange. It is pretty odd that the short form of his name is "Ben," since his full name, Adaephon Ben Delat, seems to suggest a Hebrew or Arabic type of patronymic system. If that were the case, his name would mean something like "Adaephon, son of Delat," but since he uses different parts of that name as aliases throughout the series I don't know if that's what Erikson intended. Juaguocio fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Jul 4, 2011 |
|
#
¿
Jul 3, 2011 23:52
|
|
|
Electronico6 posted:Being a Malazan fan, I will agree that characters are Erikson's biggest weakness. Most of them feel like clones and a lot are walking philosophical ramblings.(Especially characters introduced later on) In many occasions I have the impression that Erikson is more worried in creating a concept and developing an idea than real characters. For example in Toll the Hounds. Ugh, Harllo. His story was basically one big red herring. He meets the busted-up T'lan Imass miner and it seems like something interesting is going to happen, and then the Imass gets eaten by the Azath without us even seeing it occur. The allegorical aspect of the Harllo plotline hadn't occurred to me, because it seems completely pointless. The Tiste Andii story has enough metaphorical depth on its own that I don't understand why Erikson felt the need to complicate it further with goofy connections like that. I suppose Harllo does tie in with Murillio's storyline, but I'm ambivalent about that whole part as well. It provides some heartwrenching moments, certainly, but I also feel that it could have been completely excised without harming TtH at all.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 5, 2011 00:37
|
|
|
A Nice Boy posted:Oh shiiiit...I smell a new thread title. I can't see anything topping the current one. It perfectly describes both Erikson's writing and our discussion of his writing, and also happens to be one of the best quotes from one of his best characters. Speaking of his characters, I think they follow the same pattern as his writing as a whole. There are many unique, distinctive, well-written and memorable characters, but there are also a lot of fairly bland ones that retread the same thematic ground, and I think the same can be said of Erikson's battle scenes, philosophical tangents and poetry. Especially the poetry, as most of it is pretty awful.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 5, 2011 07:41
|
|
|
Electronico6 posted:To bad he is locked inside an Azath. I don't know about that. The end of DG suggests that he inhabits the Azath willingly, and in TtH he holds the builder of the Azath captive, and seems to be able to travel between the different Houses.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 24, 2011 23:47
|
|
|
Boogle posted:She should have asian features then. Erikson is literally the only fiction author I've ever seen use the phrase "epicanthic folds," though the same can be said about many of his stock words. User posted:Medieval? Rape and war have gone together longer than peanut butter and jelly, and that's never going to change. "Rape. Rape never changes." Oh sorry, I thought this was the GRRM thread for a second. Those limited edition covers look pretty bad to me. Apart from the Coltaine spoiler thing, that font is really lame.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 7, 2011 05:23
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 19, 2024 23:27 |
|
|
Habibi posted:Or sometimes they have no reasons and they've just been swept up and away by circumstance, which is an equally rare perspective in fantasy novels. I'll probably be in the minority here again, but I thought that ICE did an excellent job portraying this sort of perspective in Stonewielder through Suth's POV chapters. Suth and the other recruits with him were attracted to the Malazan army because of the stories they heard about the battles on Quon Tali during the events of RotCG. The brief mentions of Li Heng and the Crimson Guard that ICE inserts in these sections are very effective world building in my opinion- far more effective than anything he attempted previously, anyway. I still have doubts about Orb, Sceptre, Throne, though. I think SW was such a massive improvement over RotCG partly because ICE had a smaller canvas to work with, and kept things fairly tight as a result. With Darujhistan, however, Erikson set so many different plots in motion that have yet to be resolved, that I worry ICE may not be able to handle them all.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 30, 2011 00:23
|
|