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Coxswain Balls
Jun 3, 2001

I'm not looking for your validation through this telescope, just planets boobies bullets


College Slice

Do scout optics with MRAD adjustments exist? I just picked up a Savage 110 Scout and and humming and hawing over putting on some glass instead of the red dot I've got on there right now. Being a metric loving Canadian and working on a mathematics-adjacent degree is making me want to do all my angular adjustments the correct way.

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Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


ZebraBlade posted:

As tight as they would go using my fingers and the included wrench. I dont think I have cranked any of my other mounts as tight as this.

I sent Aero an email asking hey whats up with this, so ill wait to hear what they say before going out and buying a lapping kit and torque wrench

It is so easy to over torque small screws for optics fasteners and the wheeler torque wrenches are all of $35 on Amazon. People will almost always over torque small screws when doing it by hand. Iíve seen some time and time again once fasteners get down to 3/16Ē (4mm) diameter or smaller people over torque by default.

If someone called customer service with scope damage from rings and couldnít tell me what they torqued the screws to I wouldnít say itís a legitimate manufacturing defect. They may do something for you as an act of goodwill but nothing seems blatantly wrong on the mounts. If you buy $450 worth of optics and mounts but arenít willing to spend $35 for the right tool to not destroy them thatís kind of on you.

Ceros_X
Aug 6, 2006

U.S. Marine


Flatland Crusoe posted:

It is so easy to over torque small screws for optics fasteners and the wheeler torque wrenches are all of $35 on Amazon. People will almost always over torque small screws when doing it by hand. I’ve seen some time and time again once fasteners get down to 3/16” (4mm) diameter or smaller people over torque by default.

If someone called customer service with scope damage from rings and couldn’t tell me what they torqued the screws to I wouldn’t say it’s a legitimate manufacturing defect. They may do something for you as an act of goodwill but nothing seems blatantly wrong on the mounts. If you buy $450 worth of optics and mounts but aren’t willing to spend $35 for the right tool to not destroy them that’s kind of on you.

Conversely, if you are overtorquing the poo poo out of a mount, it shouldn't move under recoil. It should leave ring marks or possibly dent the tube or strip out the screws. It shouldn't be loosey goosey on the scope.

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


Ceros_X posted:

Conversely, if you are overtorquing the poo poo out of a mount, it shouldn't move under recoil. It should leave ring marks or possibly dent the tube or strip out the screws. It shouldn't be loosey goosey on the scope.

A #6 screw with 15 in-lbs of torque generates over 500 lbs of clamping force.

http://edge.rit.edu/edge/P14471/pub...que%20Guide.pdf

Lots of rings have 4 of those fasteners per bolt. Torqued to spec you have 2,000 lbs of clamping force per ring. Hamfisting that little bolt over torque can easily have the same effect as parking a compact car on the scope tube.

Donít be a moron. Use a torque wrench on a precise instrument.

Akion
May 7, 2006


Grimey Drawer

I just ordered one of those wrenches, as well as a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x and a PEPR mount. I didn't want to go too fancy on my first AR optic cause I want to figure out if I like the variable power scope thing.

Also got the rings to finally mount the Bushnell AK scope to my CZ 527.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


If you're really picky you need 2 torque drivers to cover small fasteners and big ones. The more common torque drivers don't go down far enough. Having said that I'm pretty good doing it by feel at the low end. You just need to have the right grip and technique on the driver or key. Well, that just gets you consistency but not necessarily precise torque amount.

Ceros_X
Aug 6, 2006

U.S. Marine


Flatland Crusoe posted:

A #6 screw with 15 in-lbs of torque generates over 500 lbs of clamping force.

http://edge.rit.edu/edge/P14471/pub...que%20Guide.pdf

Lots of rings have 4 of those fasteners per bolt. Torqued to spec you have 2,000 lbs of clamping force per ring. Hamfisting that little bolt over torque can easily have the same effect as parking a compact car on the scope tube.

Don’t be a moron. Use a torque wrench on a precise instrument.

Cool story bro, why is his scope still walking if he's ham fisting it ffs.

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


Ceros_X posted:

Cool story bro, why is his scope still walking if he's ham fisting it ffs.

Likely because itís misaligned and needs to be lapped. I mentioned that in my first comment. The lapping kit is usually sold in conjunction with the torque wrench and alignment bars. If you check the alignment and then lap the rings if necessary you would avoid tearing up your scope in the first place or realize your scope mount is way out.

Knowing your torque is important not to damage the scope but it also eliminates a variable if the base has issues. Most people also donít realize on those tiny bolts the leverage and force they are generating because of the huge mechanical advantage at play. They also canít accurately tell you if they put 4 lbs of force into that 3.5Ē torx key or 8 lbs and that the difference between 2000 and 4000 lbs of force being applied to a scope unevenly should you ignore the first steps in the process.

ZebraBlade
Mar 26, 2010

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

Maybe they should include some instructions instructions, any form of instructions at all really, that you need to lap their mount and torque to a specific spec instead of just throwing their mount and a wrench in a cardboard box and saying "here you go".

my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK


Hair Elf

I've always read that lapping is a thing of the past with modern machining. Sounds like you got a badly made mount.

Ceros_X
Aug 6, 2006

U.S. Marine


Yeah there isn't a requirement to lap modern machine made rings or scope mounts. Scope tube or the AP mount is out of spec, open an RMA on both.

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


You shouldnít have to lap a modern 1 piece mount but if your scope is slipping lapping is the likely remedy. Buying a less reputable mount always increases the chance the mount isnít aligned in the first place.

I donít remember that last time I needed to lap a set of rings after checking alignment bars but I do go through an alignment check before leveling the scope and torquing screws. I do lap if alignment wasnít good but I havenít needed to in years. Lapping is a bigger issue with 2 separate rings 2 separate sections of rail than it will be with a single rail or true one piece mount. The issue with cantilevered one piece mounts is that they cost more to make I think itís quite a bit easier to want to cheap out on them.

Maybe itís because I play musical chairs with rifle scopes but spending the money for a decent mounting kit has been more than worth it over a decade. Mounting a scope isnít rocket science but having the right tools and a process really helps. It also vets out errors like the time I went to the range with another goon and we couldnít get his rifle on paper and it turned out he had 2 completely different rings on his scope randomly pulled from the drawer.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Flatland Crusoe posted:

Mounting a scope isnít rocket science

Easy to talk until the feeler gauges are out checking scope ring gaps while still maintaining even torque on 6 screw caps and making sure the scope hasn't drifted from its level.

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.


Shaocaholica posted:

Easy to talk until the feeler gauges are out checking scope ring gaps while still maintaining even torque on 6 screw caps and making sure the scope hasn't drifted from its level.

And that's a problem with those Aero mounts too, start torquing them down and the scope rotates juuuuust slightly.

Liam Acerbus
Sep 17, 2007



Yep, I'll never buy an Aero mount again. Keeping the scope level while torquing is an exercise in frustration.

Android Apocalypse
Apr 28, 2009

The future is
AUTOMATED
and you are
OBSOLETE





Illegal Hen

Are there scope mounts better than the Scalarworks ones? I was looking at those and they got the leveling screw as well as the hinged ring, so I'm guessing it takes a lot of the guesswork out of getting a scope mounted correctly.

jwang
Mar 31, 2013


Spuhr is pretty well known as scope mount makers.

Ceros_X
Aug 6, 2006

U.S. Marine


Liam Acerbus posted:

Yep, I'll never buy an Aero mount again. Keeping the scope level while torquing is an exercise in frustration.

A cheap hack I use to keep the scope level is to take a deck of cards and turn them into a feeler gauge - put them between the bell of the scope and the mount once I've got everything level (hanging a plub line, using a level, etc). As long as you compress the card when you shim it'll tension everything and kept it from rotating when you tighten the screws. You can shim both sides this way. I really want a Scalarworks mount, just hard paying that much money whena good ADM one piece mount pops up used for $115 or so on arfcom pretty frequently and my glass only cost $450 lol. Maybe when I get a 5-25x for groups.

SinistralRifleman
Oct 9, 2007


Round 2
https://youtu.be/m5timDnYzQw

Kylaer
Aug 3, 2007


Is this thread where I can ask for a recommendation about lights or would another thread be more suitable? I'd like to buy a basic Keymod-compatible light for an AR, and a pistol light for a CZ75 SP01.

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.


Kylaer posted:

Is this thread where I can ask for a recommendation about lights or would another thread be more suitable? I'd like to buy a basic Keymod-compatible light for an AR, and a pistol light for a CZ75 SP01.

Here's what I'd get if I were in your shoes, these both have really cheap add to cart prices:

Rifle: https://www.armsunlimited.com/SureF...p/m600u-z68.htm (Add your choice of Keymod mount, like from Haley or Arisaka)
Pistol: https://www.armsunlimited.com/SureF...t-p/x300u-a.htm

Saint Celestine
Dec 17, 2008

Lay a fire within your soul and another between your hands, and let both be your weapons.
For one is faith and the other is victory and neither may ever be put out.

- Saint Sabbat, Lessons

Grimey Drawer

I had asked earlier in this thread about mounts.

I bought the same Aero one as you, got it, put it on, and during the install process, notice the same issues with scope rotation and what not, and their general design, I decided against it and went with ADM. Much more solid, would recommend that, as its a little over double of the Aero, but still not as much as the Sphurs and Geisseles, Scalarworks, etc.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Kylaer posted:

Is this thread where I can ask for a recommendation about lights or would another thread be more suitable? I'd like to buy a basic Keymod-compatible light for an AR, and a pistol light for a CZ75 SP01.

Here's what I use:
Rifle: https://www.impactweaponscomponents...ve-light-mount/ and https://inforce-mil.com/products/ri...hts/wmlx-white/
Pistol: https://www.streamlight.com/en/prod...ail/index/tlr-7

The Rat's recommendations are good too.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Midwest mounts are about the same as ADM and just as good if you want more options.

Akion
May 7, 2006


Grimey Drawer

I have a Midwest mount on my WASR and like it.

Coxswain Balls
Jun 3, 2001

I'm not looking for your validation through this telescope, just planets boobies bullets


College Slice

I'm looking for a scout optic for my new Savage 110 Scout and I think I've narrowed it down to these two options due to availability. Apologies for maybe going a little overboard with my spreadsheet madness, but I love me some Excel and number crunching.



The Nikon is cheaper and located in the same province so it'd be slightly more convenient in that respect. It's also capable of slightly higher magnification, but with the smaller objective lens that means the image will be much dimmer, correct?

What does the smaller exit pupil mean with a riflescope, exactly? Is that the amount of leeway you have for moving from side to side or up and down before you start getting black crescents in your field of view?

The Burris is a bit pricier, but it's specifically a scout scope rather than a big-bore handgun scope which is making me think it's not a bad idea to lean more in that direction. It's touch heavier, but the increased range of adjustment seems nice, and the warranty looks so impressive that alone might be worth the cost premium.

If there are other suggestions for what I should be looking at I'm all ears, it's just that stuff can be hard to come by up here in Canada.

my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK


Hair Elf

Nikon is getting out of the scope business so whether or not you'll be able to get your warranty honored or not in the future is kind of up in the air. On the other hand all their stuff is on clearance everywhere so you can get a good deal if you're not concerned about it breaking.

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


Coxswain Balls posted:

I'm looking for a scout optic for my new Savage 110 Scout and I think I've narrowed it down to these two options due to availability. Apologies for maybe going a little overboard with my spreadsheet madness, but I love me some Excel and number crunching.



The Nikon is cheaper and located in the same province so it'd be slightly more convenient in that respect. It's also capable of slightly higher magnification, but with the smaller objective lens that means the image will be much dimmer, correct?

What does the smaller exit pupil mean with a riflescope, exactly? Is that the amount of leeway you have for moving from side to side or up and down before you start getting black crescents in your field of view?

The Burris is a bit pricier, but it's specifically a scout scope rather than a big-bore handgun scope which is making me think it's not a bad idea to lean more in that direction. It's touch heavier, but the increased range of adjustment seems nice, and the warranty looks so impressive that alone might be worth the cost premium.

If there are other suggestions for what I should be looking at I'm all ears, it's just that stuff can be hard to come by up here in Canada.

Exit pupil means itís easier to find the crosshairs, but more critically once exit pupil gets below ~4mm light transmission degrades in low light. An adult eye pupil is around 4mm at dusk. Once the projection is smaller than the pupil it just doesnít work well. In day light your. pupil is typically 1-2mm. Itís worth noting having an exit pupil bigger than 4-5mm doesnít mean any improvement in light transmission.

I have that Nikon circle drop BDC reticle on a different scope and I donít like it compared to the hash mark BDCís. Itís distracting and doesnít work well for distances between the BDC positions IMO. The Burris reticle is better and itís purpose built for the application. That would very much push me that way plus knowing Nikon is getting out of scopes.

JRay88
Jan 4, 2013


You have almost twice the FOV on the Burris than the Nikon. That going to make it easier to acquire and maintain your target. If this is for hunting that means less searching for the animal and more shot opportunity.

Coxswain Balls
Jun 3, 2001

I'm not looking for your validation through this telescope, just planets boobies bullets


College Slice

Thanks fellas, looks like I'll be going with the Burris then. I found a 1.5-4x28 Leupold VX-Freedom scout for twenty bucks more, and while it's 105g lighter and slightly clearer, I'm thinking I'll appreciate the extra bit of versatility the 2-7x32 the Burris provides when tagging along with my friends for longer range stuff.

I've got a Ruger .44 Carbine for hunting, but I'm hoping to use the scout at some point too. Should give me a little bit more breathing room with range compared to the 300gr XTPs I reload with for my carbine.

ThinkFear
Sep 14, 2007



I'd rather have a fixed 2.5x. Higher mag is like looking through a straw on a scout scope. The FOV on the Nikon is comically bad.

Coxswain Balls
Jun 3, 2001

I'm not looking for your validation through this telescope, just planets boobies bullets


College Slice

Because I'm completely neurotic, I cut a 1" chunk of barstock to the exact weight of the Burris to see if I wouldn't mind having that much weight up front. Obviously because of the density the length is different (3.67" vs a real scope's 9.7"), but that lets me play around with center of gravity a bit.



I only have a spare set of low 30mm rings kicking around right now, but was able to shim them for this test at least. I'm gonna try to borrow a proper set of 1" rings to do some detailed measurements, but I think I can get away with low rings.

Even pushed all the way forward it didn't feel awful, but obviously I'm looking at the center of a chunk of metal and can't tell how much I might be swaying. All the way back the balance point was just ahead of the magazine, so I'm thinking with an optic that has its eyepiece further back it'll be perfect if the eye relief plays nice.

ThinkFear posted:

I'd rather have a fixed 2.5x. Higher mag is like looking through a straw on a scout scope. The FOV on the Nikon is comically bad.

How's the FoV on that Burris I'm looking at? I appreciate the utility of a fixed sight for simplicity and definitely weight, but I'd still like to have something I can bring with me when my friends are setting up for prone shooting at 500 yards. The Burris looked fine on the video here, but maybe I'm missing something? They also show the Leupold I talked about earlier.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-scout-scopes/

Coxswain Balls
Jun 3, 2001

I'm not looking for your validation through this telescope, just planets boobies bullets


College Slice

So since I'm not a crazy person, I added some features to my high-tech scope testing rig that should help with measuring position, center of mass and eye relief. Right now it's the same weight as the Burris Scout (plus a few grams for spacers and cardboard), and the length is the same.



Also added the Leupold to the table, although I'm surprised at how much lower the eye relief is.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Scout scope vs red dot?

New Concept Hole
Oct 10, 2012

東方動的


Stick a couple needles through the cardboard to make a crosshair imo. Max weight savings.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Or just use a pistol or micro dot.

Coxswain Balls
Jun 3, 2001

I'm not looking for your validation through this telescope, just planets boobies bullets


College Slice

New Concept Hole posted:

Stick a couple needles through the cardboard to make a crosshair imo. Max weight savings.



Exactly what I did to attach the string used to measure eye relief. When mounted all the way back with a comfortable cheek weld I get 10.5", which is right in the middle of the 9.2" - 12" eye relief they give in the specs. That should help with making it less front heavy. With the Leupold it seems like I'd have to move it back to the point where it interferes with the peep sight, since I'm already on the second shortest stock spacer.



Shaocaholica posted:

Scout scope vs red dot?

I started with an RDS and really liked it, but started thinking about glass more and more on the last few range trips with my friends. Snap shots up to 150ish yards are easy peasy, but god drat did I waste a whole lot of ammo trying to hit a 4x6" target at 350 yards, especially when stuck with 1MOA increment clicks. With my buddy's scoped Ruger American Ranch I nailed it first shot.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Coxswain Balls posted:

I started with an RDS and really liked it, but started thinking about glass more and more on the last few range trips with my friends. Snap shots up to 150ish yards are easy peasy, but god drat did I waste a whole lot of ammo trying to hit a 4x6" target at 350 yards, especially when stuck with 1MOA increment clicks. With my buddy's scoped Ruger American Ranch I nailed it first shot.

I guess in theory you could have a scout scope AND a red dot

Coxswain Balls
Jun 3, 2001

I'm not looking for your validation through this telescope, just planets boobies bullets


College Slice

Shaocaholica posted:

I guess in theory you could have a scout scope AND a red dot

Buddy don't tempt me, and don't think that hasn't crossed my mind. The plan right now is to sell my red dots to fund all these purchases, since this new rifle was an incredibly financially irresponsible impulse purchase driven by the legislation changes that just happened up here.

Already sold some of my .223 reloading supplies... but I have a feeling that's going to mysteriously end up paying for .308 supplies.

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charliebravo77
Jun 11, 2003



Even though it's the heaviest option, I would lean towards the Burris based on the magnification range, reticle, eye relief and FOV. I have their Fullfield E1 2-7x35mm on my Tikka T1x and it's a great scope for the money so far - I can only imagine that at ~2x the price the scout version would perform well, too.

Tikka T1X Hunting by charliebravo77, on Flickr

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