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Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


RobattoJesus posted:

If the government shuts down BitCoin before it can collapse under it's own weight I'm going to be pissed.

Sounds more like the first slip down the slippery slope to letting it collapse in on itself to me.

Everyone's going to try and unload their stock before The Man comes to stomp on their fun.

At least that's my speculation.

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Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


frobert blamble posted:

That news is days old and bitcoins have only gone up. They're back to 30 on Gox right now. The Senators are only grandstanding at this point. Shutting bitcoin down will prove difficult because the network is decentralized. Gox is based in another country and it's not the only place to trade bitcoins.

That's the amazing thing about speculation like this, who knows what the gently caress will happen to it in the next hour/day/month/year?

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


THE LUMMOX posted:

and you will get a cut of all future exchanges! AMAZING!

Bitcoins, totally not a pyramid scheme!

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


If anything it's being traded and treated like a commodity.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


trucutru posted:

If you mine gold you get gold, which is valuable as long as some other dude wants it. If some other guy wants your binary file it is the same freaking deal.

The other part is the reasons why people want gold.

People want gold because it has practical real world uses and that creates a demand for it and creates a much steadier price point for it because people won't buy it if it's going to cut into the profit margins of their finished product.

90% of the demand for BitCoins is being created by people speculating that the price will continue to increase over what they buy it for, the other 10% are the guys trading them for drugs and are the ones creating the actual real demand for BitCoins.

I just pulled the percentages out of the air, but I very much doubt the actual demand for BitCoins being created by drug trades is enough to push the value of BitCoins up 3000% in the last few days.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


nebby posted:

Just gonna leave this here and back away slowly

http://bitcoinbabes.com/

Haha, what the gently caress is this?

Is this just some guy trawling the internet for pics of pretty girls then charging 0.01 BC to view a full size image of it? Or are these girls who are getting 0.01 BC?

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Bolian Blues posted:

So... I'm kind of hesitant in posting this question, because I don't want people to get the wrong idea about what I'm saying. I think bitcoins are completely ludicrous and doomed to failure. But this whole thing has made me wonder: what exactly does it mean when economists talk about something having "value"? I've seen a lot of people on here saying things along the lines of "bitcoins are worthless", "bitcoins aren't real", "bitcoins will fail when everyone realizes they have no value" etc. But then I look at that mtgox site and I see that people are buying these things for around $20 each. How can something that's worthless be worth something to anyone? Isn't it more accurate to say that they only have value to a small group of people, and will only have that value for a short period of time?

Name the uses for any commodity (Gold, Iron ore, Silicon, Timber, Wheat, etc) and then name the uses for BitCoins.

A commodity (which is what a BitCoin is being traded like) has value because it can be used to produce something. The $/lb goes up because the demand for the commidity increases, or it goes goes down because demand decreases, where as the price of a BitCoin goes up because people buy them to try and sell off at a higher price, not because there's any demand for them to be used in a practical sense.

You can look at any commodity and see this demand vs price trend.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Uglycat posted:

Bitcoin investors are not misrepresenting their investment. You know exactly what you're getting - one bitcoin.

Which does what exactly?

You said it yourself, it's not a currency and more like a commodity, and for a commodity to be stable it needs people to buy it for reasons other than speculation which means it needs a use, Bitcoin has no use, even when it did (Silkroad) the demand was minuscule.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Uglycat posted:

They reply - 'Oh? What DOES it /mean/? The USD has no 'objective value', anymore than any other currency has. And it's not like we're paying you in wheat - if the USD becomes worthless, you have nothing. And we all know inflation is on the rise right now, what with gas prices...'

Chance that the USD inflates enough to devalue your USD paycheck by 1/2 in a day, next to none.

Chance of speculation bubble popping and causing your Bitcoins to devalue by 1/2 in one day, pretty loving likely, might not even take a day.

Not to mention as soon as the Bitcoin bubble spikes, the companies wage costs go through the roof and bankrupt them, or their operating costs significantly increase because of the massive amount of mining they need to do to pay the wages each week, and they go bankrupt.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Uglycat posted:

The USD could easily be described as a "Perpetual Ponzi Scheme." That's what the regulation is for - to keep it 'perpetual', so it doesn't crash. Now, in addition to being sustainable (which sets it apart from pyramid schemes), it ALSO has stability. Which is rooted in a number of things - like Trust in the US Gov't, confidence in the wisdom of bank regulators, and how ubiquitous USD is. Bitcoin does not (presently) have stability. It's not ubiquitous, but stability is a prerequisite for that. And it has no central government, so there's no entity for people to have Trust in (to give it that stability). IF it stabilizes, it will be 'Trust in the market' that does it. Because that's the only thing that /can/ do it. In truth, 'Trust in the market' is the only reason it has any value today. This is why Libertarians flock to it; but one needn't be a Randian to have that trust.

You know why no-one will ever trust the system as a currency?

Because it's anonymous as possible. Someone empties my bank account and there's a paper trail that can be followed at least part of the way to the perpetrator and help get my money back, someone empties my Bitcoin wallet and well gently caress.... guess I'm stuck out begging in the internet gutters.

Same with scams, someone scams someone out of Bitcoins and well gently caress......

I'm surprised there aren't people scamming other people out of Bitcoins left and right, the nature of the currency is just begging for it.

You might be able to get some libertarians to adopt it, but no way in hell is an actual business going to take a risk like that.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Devian666 posted:

I need to correct this right here. People are scamming other people out of bitcoins. There are even dodgy investments set up to purchase bitcoin mining hardware. They're all classic scams that I've seen before.

Guess I need to hang around bitcoin forums more, hopefully it won't kill all my brain cells if I do.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Ziir posted:

I don't get it. You mean to say that this wallet doesn't even have a password or anything? So that if I somehow copied someone's wallet.dat file or whatever I could just open it and send myself all the coins in their wallet?

Something like that, I think it's just a plain text file.

Bitcoins, not only stable, but ultra secure!

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Reptoid Democracy posted:

Yep, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. It is funny watching the people in that thread trying to get the thief's wallet on the exchange cancelled. I can't believe people are so stupid.
If they get it cancelled Bitcoins won't even be anonymous currency any more, since you need a receipt to prove you didn't steal them.

This is where the whole thing gets hilarious, they want fraud protection like any currency backed by a government, but at the same time want every transaction to be completely 100% anonymous and free of any form of authoritative oversight.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Devian666 posted:

I'm thinking about offering a wallet protection service. You see they pay me 0.1 BTC so that they can safely upload wallet.dat to my database.

http://bitprotection.info/

Coming soon!

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


evilweasel posted:

It would be illegal, if they could prove it is another matter.

As soon as a law any law is enforced as a result of someone stealing the whole "no regulation" thing evaporates and the point of the currency existing becomes moot.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Uglycat posted:

*past performance is not an indicator of future performance, and it's conceivable the market could stabilize.

We've gone over this a thousand loving times, for it to stabalise it needs a use or people using it to trade for goods and services.

The only reason Bitcoins are changing hand right now are because of crazies hoarding them for when the space aliens come to liberate them, and people who are trying to buy low and sell high on the back of the crazies thinking they're worth something.

No-one is using them to purchase goods or services therefor they have zero worth as a currency.

No-one is using them to produce goods or services therefor they have zero worth as a commodity.

It's a pure 100% speculation bubble.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


XboxPants posted:

Yes, I realize it's a small part of the bitcoin market (although how much is pretty much impossible to know) but the fact is, people are making $100+ purchases on Amazon, a reputable site, for everyday products... using bitcoins.

Not that I think bitcoins are a wise investment (I certainly haven't invested anything into them) but what you say is patently untrue.

They're trading Bitcoins for USD then trading that for goods/services, they're not trading Bitcoins for goods.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


You missed the best bit.

quote:

Take steps to secure you computer: most probably put this off. For the record, I think anything requiring "Updates" (Including Windows and certain GNU/Linux distros, most graphical browsers) is inherently insecure. Undocumented hardware like those GPUs you use for mining are also a security risk.

I wouldn't mind knowing what this perfect program is that is 100% secure for eternity without ever needing an update is.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Ripoff posted:

I'll bet you that right now there's some sperglord pounding away at the keyboard, creating a dedicated BitCoin OS out of a Linux kernel for "true security". When they do, you'll see 5 identical releases sent out simultaneously that exist to steal said BitCoins.

the Linux kernel gets patched though

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Devian666 posted:

Ok. Which one of you is buttcoin on the official forum. Also, you web site is hilarious http://buttcoin.org/

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12948.0

We are not amused

EDIT: This forums is loving great, http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=4752.0 , no money, no job and 200 Bitcoins in my e-wallet, TIME FOR A ROAD TRIP!

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


blugu64 posted:

I saw this linked in one of their sigs
http://fxnet.bitlex.org/
How is this not the literal definition of a ponzi scheme?

http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=854.0

quote:

Warning: the randomizer has been hacked!
don't send any coins, check your account and withdraw what's left.
i'm trying to figure out what happened.

Even the ponzi schemes aren't safe in the world of tomorrow.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


odiv posted:

Who would distribute the coins? The idea is there's no central authority.

Make it pull out random accounts from previous transactions?

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Sii posted:

This might sound a bit , but maybe the creators of bitcoin has their hands in some of the companies selling these computers.

Of course they did, obviously the system was designed by AMD to shift old stock.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Everyday Potato posted:

But of course. I wish I had an intangible good I could sell like customised essays for people looking to cheat :3

This guy is loving hilarious, he has employees and has done market research for his essay writing "business"? I don't think so......

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


evilweasel posted:

Ok in all seriousness, why are you asking for help using the mining software in a 100 page thread mocking the entire concept? There are not a lot of people actually running the software.

At least can't hurt himself too much if he's just mining for Bitcoins and not buying them.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Imapanda posted:

I can still buy poo poo if I actually build up these internet coins over time though, right?

Maybe, if you can convert them to USD at a rate that covers your increased electricy bill and gives you a profit on top of it.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Devian666 posted:



Do you have a direct link for this? (I'm lazy)

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3066.0



There's this gem though

Atlas posted:

As an attractive 17-year old, I get this service for free on a daily basis. : P

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


The Bible posted:

20 bitcoins. At the right time of day, that could be worth 600 dollars. For an hour of dubiously legal phone sex.

yeah that's the other part I didn't get.

Even at the recent low points around $10-15, it's still $200-$300 USD/hour.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Though I find it amusing in a very macabre way that human trafficking is beginning to dabble in bitcoins.

Is there a use yet that isn't completely shady or straight up illegal?

And yes whatever your name is, the spendbitcoins.com thing, thanks, but it's shady as hell, the guy on the other end can easy just take your Bitcoins and disappear.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Lolie posted:

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16946.0

While we already guessed that people were giving up their jobs and poo poo to focus on BTC, it's another thing to see them openly admitting it.

Most of those posts sound exactly like people who get involved in MLM's.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Pizer posted:

As much as the internet loves to hate these things i'm pretty sure it's silently eating away at everyone that if they clicked one click, read one forum post, or news article a year ago they could literally have been tens-hundreds of thousands of dollars richer right now simply by mining when nobody was.

It was just as likely to tank and never be worth anything, but hindsight is always 20/20.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Pizer posted:

As far as i know this is the only bubble that actually has an essentially zero(electricity) cost of entry. Obviously buying bitcoins is usually dumb as poo poo, but mining has never been a bad idea.

Electricity isn't free, and like my previous post, they were just as likely to tank and be worth nothing resulting in a net negative amount.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Pizer posted:

It costs $1.20 to mine a bitcoin here

http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricit...table5_6_b.html

5830 gets 270MHash/sec and draws 200 watts (rounded up).

that's ~18x what you get on the market at the moment.

That's over an order of magnitude. It's very profitable right now. Anyone who can do basic math would realize if you have the hardware you'd be an idiot not to be taking advantage of the bubble while it's there. Worst case you're out maybe 20$ in electricity (thats assuming you cash out every 2 weeks or so.) but you run the odds of making ~300$.

And they could be worth zero tomorrow, because it's a bubble.

Not to mention you're forgetting as all these new miners coming into the game push up that cost to mine pretty fast.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Pizer posted:

I've posted this before but i would not be suprised in the slightest if the whole thing was either designed as as pyramid scheme to make the creator/early adapters a lot of money, or if people who found out about it hijacked it into that. The whole system seems perfectly engineered for a pump and dump. It appeals to technonerds, anonymity advocates, drug dealers, child pornographers, internet libertarians and speculators. Get a critical mass of bitcoins then pump news articles and forum posts, spread word about the silk road so you get people in it for drugs, the value shoots through the roof.

Add in the fact there's a huge darkpool movement and the system is very vulernable to faking liquidity by making trades at fixed value

Good old hindsight, it never fails, all of your points don't guarantee poo poo about where we'd be today if you're talking about knowing all this a year ago.

I also have some morals and would rather not support a system that's basically designed around facilitating illegal activities.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Pizer posted:

First quote of the post

You don't know what a ninja edit is.

Lets get pedantic up in here!

Pizer posted:

Yup, then i turn my fake currency into real currency!

How do you feel about helping facilitate what is essential child porn in just about every developed country?

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


evensevenone posted:

So is using a Visa card facilitating child porn? Because that's about the degree of connection you're pushing here.

Except if someone used a Visa to buy child porn, even if it was a stolen card, there'd be paper trails to track the buyer and possibly seller.

With Bitcoins there's blissful anonymity.

I'm fine with all the drug trade and whatever, I wasn't too concerned about it until the post before with the 16 year olds basically getting whored out over skype.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Aleksei Vasiliev posted:

Yes, because we all know governments are excellent at that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ore

It's better than the complete brick wall Bitcoins is designed around trying to create.

Pizer posted:

That's what anonymous things can be used for. It's also what makes up a large portion of TOR traffic. Is that grounds for shutting it down / making it illegal to use at all?

Well considering the main use (ignoring speculation, because that's not a use) of the "currency" seems to be 97% for illegal purposes, yes.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


v2.spengler posted:

there will no doubt be a couple people loony enough to have nostalgia for bitcoins, but they will have no problem cornering the market at that point.

I dunno, you can show off your MTG cards to friends and fellow collectors, a Bitcoin is just a number in a plain text file on your computer, it's not quite as interesting or flashy.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Welp, at least I can look forward to mountains of cheap second hand hardware in a few weeks/months.

Actually I'd like to meet these people who think investing that kind of money in Bitcoin mining is a more sound investment than investing in a decent Blue Chip or just collecting interest in a bank account.

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Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Midorka posted:

Either way how can you even boast about $300 a month?

Midorka posted:

Funnily enough he has no idea how much the electricity costs since he's 16 and doesn't pay for it.

I think you answered your own question there.

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