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Wow, I had no idea about all that extra dialogue about Bugenhagen and Aeris. That's really cool. Him working for ShinRa was previously totally unmentioned, right?
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Apr 21, 2014 15:02
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Chapter 90 - Secrets of the Deep   No poo poo.   Oh man, I have a feeling we all know where Holy is. Anyway, time for some exposition. This is one of those chapters.   Buggenhagen: "Ho Ho Hooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear." Buggenhagen: "Perhaps, even ourselves." Cloud: "Even us!?" Buggenhagen: "What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear. That is all. Ho Ho Hoo." Buggenhagen: "I wonder which we humans are?" Buggenhagen: "Speak to the planet." Yep. This is some bad news.  Cloud: "This is the end."  Cloud: "But when Aeris died, it fell from the altar..." Cloud: "That's why this is the end." Bugenhagen: "Look at this!" Cloud: "Can you read it?" Bugenhagen: "I can't even make it out!" Cloud: "This is no time for jokes..." Bugenhagen: "I may be old, but my eyes aren't completely bad yet. Look closely below the writing." We have our clues. A key where sunlight can't reach.  I wonder who it was. Gast?  Bugenhagen: "Use these words as clues and go find the key." This is similar to the Chocobo Sage's tip. We can keep coming in here from time to time to read the updated clue.  Like this  . Well the clues seem obvious enough - It's underwater. We need to go underwater, hence why even if you fail the submarine mission the game gives you the (much cooler) red submarine. Let's go.  Oh ffs go away  Going north seems natural - we see this small passage leading right beneath the city of ancients.  And this underwater cave...  There we go.  "exact date of origin cannot be determined..." "estimated to be several thousand years old..."  Hoozah!  Weird. To the southwest we find another cave.  A much longer cave.  Which leads us to a dead end. With nowhere else to go but the surface above us.  The passage leads us to this small lake in the mountains, between Nibelheim and Corel. We've seen this place before, but there's not enough space for us to land the airship.  We need the submarine (or a Green+ Chocobo) to get here. We can finally find out what's inside the cave.  For this next part, we need Vincent in our party. Since we're so close to Nibelheim let's go with Team Traumatized - Cloud, Tifa and Vince. So, without further ado - another secret flashback.    Vincent: "Lucrecia...?"                     Vincent: "And Lucrecia... I was unable to stop them." Vincent: "All I was able to do was watch... that is my punishment."  This is some nightmarish stuff.   And this is just sad. Either way, Sephiroth was doomed from the start. Jenova's influence upon an infected body is clearly extremely high.   Vincent: "What?" "I heard that he died five years ago. But I see him in my dreams so often..." "And I know that physically, like me, he can't die so easily."       Next Time: We find out about the Key's purpose. 
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Apr 21, 2014 15:07
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So at this point with these late game flashbacks and plot expositions, FF7 has gotten a bit too FF7 meta for me. A game that has very important plot points about characters not sure if their memories are their own or even correct has me doing the same. Some plot moments I don't remember at all and some like this latest one, I don't know if I saw before or if the mention of it in the LP caused me to fill in the blanks and make make false memories. drat it.
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Apr 21, 2014 15:33
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I forgot how generic-JRPG this part got, with the return to the Forgotten City and finding the Key. You actually have to go all the way round to the back of the Forgotten City to that little area, right? Does the game prompt you at all? EDIT: oh and in case it was unclear to anyone, that was Hojo holding Lucrecia while Young Vincent despaired in his cool Turks suit. And it was Hojo that shot him and experimented on him.
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Apr 21, 2014 15:40
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Elentor posted:Chapter 90 - Secrets of the Deep But...Vincent not only knew Hojo but ALSO Professor Gast? He was a part of that experiment too?! ...and to think that his first experiment goes and kills his daughter who was actually the only one who knew how to stop him. What a loving mess.  AndwhatIseeisme posted:Thanks for the Easter update, Elentor. I...never realised that and yet it's so obvious to me now. That's kind of incredible, hell even Aeris has her connections since she was not only captured at one point but she also seemed to know Tseng quite well, plus she had a relationship presumably with Zack. You also forget Yuffie who was born in the aftermath of the great war of Wutai which Shinra managed to more or less industrialise into a tourist spot...was that Shinra or just the Midgar army as it is, because Shinra seem to pretty much be EVERYTHING about Midgar.
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Apr 21, 2014 15:42
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FinalGamer posted:she also seemed to know Tseng quite well, plus she had a relationship presumably with Zack.
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Apr 21, 2014 15:57
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Haha, are the Shinra troops in the submarines still being held hostage?
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Apr 21, 2014 15:58
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BioMe posted:Haha, are the Shinra troops in the submarines still being held hostage? I'd like to think they're getting a mix of Stockholm Syndrome and spontaneous desertion complex, which is typical if you get spared by AVALANCHE.
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Apr 21, 2014 16:43
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BioMe posted:Haha, are the Shinra troops in the submarines still being held hostage? Well, they can't go back to the company now, failures that they are. They might as well join Cloud and the crew as undersea valets.
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Apr 21, 2014 17:07
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It's too bad Vincent didn't get to be part of the main plot at all. He could have been a good mentor type character towards the others, and known about Shinra's inner workings enough to plan some effective attacks.
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Apr 21, 2014 17:13
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Yep, this is how lost I got at this part. I actually found the Key to the Ancients before knowing I needed it. And for some reason that still didn't clue me in that I had to go to the Forgotten City. I think I was so traumatized by that place I blocked its very existence from my memory. It is a Bad Place where Bad Stuff happens. To this day I can't even listen to the music there without flinching.
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Apr 21, 2014 20:51
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The City of the Ancients is one of the first places I went with an airship, because the landmark didn't look familiar (because you don't actually see it from above the first time you go there) and it looked super suspicious. Or at least I never saw it the first time. You might have been able to see it with the straight-above world map camera.
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Apr 21, 2014 20:57
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I will never forget this bit of the game if only because on my first time I didn't think the Key was in a random cave underwater. No, I somehow had the bright idea that to get it I had to beat up Emerald Weapon. I have no idea how or why I came to that conclusion, but I did. 
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Apr 21, 2014 21:00
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Dragonatrix posted:I will never forget this bit of the game if only because on my first time I didn't think the Key was in a random cave underwater. Your poor sanity....But yeah, as above, I found the key BEFORE going back, because I decided to explore underwater first.
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Apr 21, 2014 21:16
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I was terrified of going underwater to look for the key. I honestly thought they were gonna dick move me and have Emerald Weapon just sitting outside that little crevasse waiting for me once I picked it up. I was so scared, in fact, that my first time playing, I never found any of the optional submarine stuff.
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Apr 21, 2014 22:02
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This part of FF7 gets quite confusing. Also, my 14 year old self made jokes about the key being placed where the sun don't shine. butts
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Apr 21, 2014 23:03
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Phantasium posted:The City of the Ancients is one of the first places I went with an airship, because the landmark didn't look familiar (because you don't actually see it from above the first time you go there) and it looked super suspicious. You can see it with any kind of camera, but maybe you forgot about seeing it because you're only on the world map for about a second between Sleeping Forest and the city.
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Apr 21, 2014 23:05
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When exiting the Sleeping Forest to the north, you don't actually hit the world map at all, it transitions directly into City of the Ancients. It was several playthroughs of the game before I realized you could land the Highwind outside the ancient city, I assumed you had to walk from Bone Village every time. And that was only because I actually flew over it once and thought "wait, what's that doing there". If memory serves you CAN twist the camera around to see it from the exit on the other side (towards Icicle Inn), but I could be wrong. Been a while.
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Apr 21, 2014 23:09
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Ak Gara posted:This part of FF7 gets quite confusing.  You can actually wear women's clothing as Cloud in Dissidia as armour. Lots of people love to note this.
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Apr 21, 2014 23:15
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He also got most of the female only equipment in FFT.
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Apr 21, 2014 23:31
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CmdrKing posted:When exiting the Sleeping Forest to the north, you don't actually hit the world map at all, it transitions directly into City of the Ancients. Incorrect!
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Apr 22, 2014 00:25
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I don't quite remember, is this the first time it's mentioned that the girl Vincent was into liked Hojo instead? What does everyone see in that guy, god drat.
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Apr 22, 2014 01:06
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darealkooky posted:I don't quite remember, is this the first time it's mentioned that the girl Vincent was into liked Hojo instead?  Also, the 2nd and last images of the Sephiroth With Golden Saucer Tickets fan art in the OP are showing a TinyPic error.
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Apr 22, 2014 01:10
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Didn't this place just kind of open for Aeris? Or was that a different place in the city?
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Apr 22, 2014 04:40
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darealkooky posted:I don't quite remember, is this the first time it's mentioned that the girl Vincent was into liked Hojo instead? Remember the beach at Costa Del Sol. You can never forget the beach.
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Apr 22, 2014 04:59
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This is something I want to share with the thread:
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Apr 22, 2014 05:05
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FinalGamer posted:...god dammit. She was nothing but a surrogate puppet, not even given the chance to be a real mother before everything else happened. If you're feeling sympathetic towards Lucrecia, consider reading TDI's Dirge of Cerberus LP after Elentor finishes.
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Apr 22, 2014 05:52
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BlitzBlast posted:If you're feeling sympathetic towards Lucrecia, consider reading TDI's Dirge of Cerberus LP after Elentor finishes.
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Apr 22, 2014 06:33
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AndwhatIseeisme posted:Thanks for the Easter update, Elentor. I kinda view it more as everyone who works closely enough with Shinra and has any capacity for self-reflection sees that Shinra is kinda loving everything up. I mean, even the execs at the top know they're just in it for money. However, if you're near the top, you can just smother your conscience under a giant pile of money. Well, except for Hojo, but the words Hojo and self-reflection don't belong in the same sentence.
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Apr 22, 2014 06:50
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Tupperwarez posted:Dirge of Cerberus takes the straightforward melodrama between Vincent, Lucrecia, and Hojo that we see in the flashback, and makes a complete mess of it with a series of unnecessary and asinine retcons surprise reveals. It was an almost perfect encapsulation of terrible videogame writing. It's kind of hard to use your own kid as a test subject for an extremely unpredictable procedure and come out of it looking like a good person. Of course Dirge really goes out of it's way to unintentionally highlight how ridiculous it is Vincent blames everything on himself while Seeing Lucy as this Madonna-like perfect woman. BioMe fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 07:46
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So what that a ghost in the cave? Or is she still around being mopey, living in a cave alone for years? Why is that cave so massive, with like, pillars and poo poo?
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Apr 22, 2014 08:57
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BioMe posted:It's kind of hard to use your own kid as a test subject for an extremely unpredictable procedure and come out of it looking like a good person. Of course Dirge really goes out of it's way to unintentionally highlight how ridiculous it is Vincent blames everything on himself while Seeing Lucy as this Madonna-like perfect woman.
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Apr 22, 2014 09:10
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Tupperwarez posted:Pretty much, yeah. Again, in FF7 they started with a serviceable overwrought melodrama between just those three characters. Not great material, but you could get a decent plot out of it. But then Dirge just kept adding all this horseshit on top. It was just... why? Because it's the FF7 EU, that's why.  It's a land where people's wrong fanfic interpretations are made canon.
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Apr 22, 2014 09:17
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counterfeitsaint posted:So what that a ghost in the cave? Or is she still around being mopey, living in a cave alone for years? Why is that cave so massive, with like, pillars and poo poo? The only explanation we're going to get is the explanation we've already got, and I honestly wouldn't want any explanation more. It combines weird alien bio-horror with the classic notion of ghosts as spirits who can't yet move on. It gives us just enough about Lucrecia to make us care, but without making her a 100% victim. It does its thing in the span of a couple of minutes and then it's done. Also the music is really good and not heard all that often.
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Apr 22, 2014 11:14
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Speaking of which, could you add in a link for the music that plays during the Cave Flashback for when it comes to be archived, perhaps?
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Apr 22, 2014 11:52
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counterfeitsaint posted:So what that a ghost in the cave? Or is she still around being mopey, living in a cave alone for years? Why is that cave so massive, with like, pillars and poo poo? I'm not saying that it was Ancients. But it was Ancients.
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Apr 22, 2014 11:57
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counterfeitsaint posted:So what that a ghost in the cave? Or is she still around being mopey, living in a cave alone for years? Why is that cave so massive, with like, pillars and poo poo? My own interpretation is that it was just an illusion that she was creating. Illusion seem to be a theme of Jenova cells, and from the dialogue saying Jenova cells didn't let her die, for all intents and purposes she might be physically dead, in a "I have no mouth and I must scream" situation, or have her body in a state that she doesn't want anyone else to see. I assume she just can't live normally anymore. One of the few parts I like about FFVII AC is when (AC Spoiler) it's revealed that Jenova's head is just a bunch of cells in a liquid. The Jenova body we see is just an illusion all along, probably the remnant of the body she used to reveal herself to the Ancients. Elentor fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 12:05
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Elentor posted:One of the few parts I like about FFVII AC is when (AC Spoiler) it's revealed that Jenova's head is just a bunch of cells in a liquid. The Jenova body we see is just an illusion all along, probably the remnant of the body she used to reveal herself to the Ancients. I don't know about that. Jenova does do stuff, physically. Having some liquid blob running around that just projects an image of Sephiroth/whatever, that still manages to somehow massacre a few floors in a skyscraper. Like maybe you are thinking she's scarier and more mysterious that way, but all I can think of is a psychic Flubber. It's just a silly mental image. EDIT: I literally can't write anymore. BioMe fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 14:52
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BioMe posted:It's kind of hard to use your own kid as a test subject for an extremely unpredictable procedure and come out of it looking like a good person. Of course Dirge really goes out of it's way to unintentionally highlight how ridiculous it is Vincent blames everything on himself while Seeing Lucy as this Madonna-like perfect woman. I could see having sympathy for her if she was not a scientist and the Shin-ra guys were like, if you don't do this experiment your kid might not have legs. Heck, even if there was something about the results being manipulated so that Lucretia would have had to make a terrible choice, she would come out okay. But I guess that whole FF7 theme of everyone messed up and everyone is guilty (other than Aeris) makes her screwed.
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Apr 22, 2014 14:57
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waah posted:I could see having sympathy for her if she was not a scientist and the Shin-ra guys were like, if you don't do this experiment your kid might not have legs. Heck, even if there was something about the results being manipulated so that Lucretia would have had to make a terrible choice, she would come out okay. It's been so long since I played FF7 that I remember nothing of this scene more than what was presented in the LP, but to me it looks like when Vincent is objecting to the procedure and Hojo says "She and I are both scientists!", Lucretia seems to be hanging her head in shame or despondancy. Aside from the fact that Expanded Universe materials make her out to be entirely complicit in the whole thing, it strikes me that when you work at Shinra and your husband is Hojo who is also your boss, then unless you are willing to rebel and risk death, you don't get to say no.
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Apr 22, 2014 15:47
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