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I think part of the reason the earlier FF's get less complaints about their stories is specifically because they weren't as detailed. When it's just a few text boxes with explanations, your brain fills in the gaps in a way that makes sense. Or you might even straight up miss some of the inconsistencies/oddities, simply because they're not pushed in your face. The perfect example of this is actually the new version of Final Fantasy 3 (the NES game). Having played a fan-made translation of the old NES version way back multiple times, I already knew the story. However, as an NES game, the actual storyline was discussed in a minimalist fashion. When they remade it a few years ago, they added lots of additional storyline explanation and discussion. You know what? The additional information turned the story from "somewhat odd" into an absolute clusterfuck. The flaws in the storyline were there even in the NES version, but never really made an impact because they were so minimally discussed - The extra description and information spotlighted the flaws and made them wildly obvious.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:17
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Kanfy posted:There's more to atmosphere than just the events that happen though, and the overall atmosphere isn't particularly gloomy in IX. The music is usually cheerful, the colours are vibrant, etc. Consider the black mages for example, in practice their existence and purpose are pretty terrible but Black Mage Village has this theme playing in it and overall the place feels a lot more cheerful and fantasy-esque than almost any area in Final Fantasy VII except maybe the Golden Saucer. You have a point but now this puts the actual events of the game in such stark contrast to its atmosphere that it feels subversive in a way I never thought before.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:22
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Kajeesus posted:Man, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Zidane is the most emotionally mature FF lead, at the ripe old age of sixteen. Let's not discuss ff character ages. Take, for example, Cid in FFVII. He's got to be over 50 to be that pissed off with the world, right? Wrong - he's 32. And if Yuffie's 16, there's no way I'm accepting that Zidane is too. But maybe maturity works differently for monkeymen.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:30
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I think FFXII had a good story.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:31
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simplefish posted:Let's not discuss ff character ages. Take, for example, Cid in FFVII. He's got to be over 50 to be that pissed off with the world, right? Wrong - he's 32. And if Yuffie's 16, there's no way I'm accepting that Zidane is too. Zidane had to grow up quickly after being a war criminal.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:55
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The problem with final fantasy storylines is that most people forget these games are made for young teens. The majority of the fanbase is now older and has stuck with the series but that has not changed the approach of the game design. They are still designed for young teenagers and while the storylines may have seemed excellent or even comprehensible to us as children, looking back they are all pretty awful. I remember playing FF7 when I was roughly around 13 and thinking the plot was amazing. My brain simply skipped over the plot holes and the stuff that didn't make sense or generally accepted it. Replaying the game as an educated adult who reads literature and, oh man, EVERY final fantasy story is awful. I mean, a 13 year old may or may not pick up on the fact that all of the main protagonists in FFXIII should from the very beginning do the noble thing and sacrifice themselves in order to save humanity by simply not doing the task that has been asked of them by the gods. TommyGun85 fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 16:08
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TommyGun85 posted:The problem with final fantasy storylines is that most people forget these games are made for young teens. The majority of the fanbase is now older and has stuck with the series but that has not changed the approach of the game design. They are still designed for young teenagers and while the storylines may have seemed excellent or even comprehensible to us as children, looking back they are all pretty awful. I remember playing FF7 when I was roughly around 13 and thinking the plot was amazing. My brain simply skipped over the plot holes and the stuff that didn't make sense or generally accepted it. Replaying the game as an educated adult who reads literature and, oh man, EVERY final fantasy story is awful. Yeah cause the fal'Cie probably would have just given up at that. And Sazh was just gonna off himself and leave his kid to do whatever with the government that tried to kill him and none of the other characters had reasons to want to live. Feelings aren't a thing that exist in people at all. 
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Dec 1, 2014 16:22
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im speaking more about how barthandalus or whatever tells them to kill him and they all say no blah blah and then proceed to kill him. the same exists in lightning returns which I am currently playing. lightning finds boss who tells her they must fight, she says she wont and then she brutally kills them. ya the falcie could find someone else but thats like saying, ill destroy the world because if I dont someone else will. wouldnt their purpose be better served by trying to stop the other people the falcie pick.... anyway, whatever im not going to argue about the comprehensibility of ff13s story.
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Dec 1, 2014 16:40
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TommyGun85 posted:im speaking more about how barthandalus or whatever tells them to kill him and they all say no blah blah and then proceed to kill him. Their goal was never to destroy the world. Barthandelus wanted them to kill Orphan. They wanted to save it, originally, and then it turns out Orphan was a dick and wanted to kill humanity and destroy Cocoon too. So they decided to take Orphan out and try and save Cocoon while freeing it from the fal'Cie. And then they did. It's seriously not that complicated.
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Dec 1, 2014 16:51
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Yes, the FFXIII protagonists had very little in the way of options but that doesn't change the fact they made Barthandalus' plan easier. All they did was continually go along with everything he wanted. Oh sure, they kept saying "we have to SAVE Cocoon, not destroy it!" but they kept trying to kill Barthandalus and eventually they willingly ran right to Orphan's Cradle. You know, where Barthandalus wanted them. Then Orphan shows up and they kill it, just like Barthandalus wanted. Hell, even killing Barthandalus was what Barthandalus wanted! The only thing that saved the XIII party was some goddess nobody knew about and nobody talked about deciding to intervene at the last second. Final Fantasy parties have a long and proud tradition of helping the villains achieve their goals but you know what? Most of the time they are tricked into this. The villain doesn't say "this is precisely what I want you to do!" and then they go and do it anyway.
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Dec 1, 2014 17:02
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ugh. it is explained that killing orphan will also destroy cocoon and the millions living in it. so they choose to do everything he wants and then when the get to orphan they decide to destroy him with no plan of how doing so might actually free cocoon from the falcie. just because it all works out for them does not mean it was reasonably or comprehensibly plotted. if you are serious about trying to say that ff13s plot make sense then good on you,.....
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Dec 1, 2014 17:02
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NikkolasKing posted:Yes, the FFXIII protagonists had very little in the way of options but that doesn't change the fact they made Barthandalus' plan easier. All they did was continually go along with everything he wanted. Oh sure, they kept saying "we have to SAVE Cocoon, not destroy it!" but they kept trying to kill Barthandalus and eventually they willingly ran right to Orphan's Cradle. You know, where Barthandalus wanted them. Then Orphan shows up and they kill it, just like Barthandalus wanted. Hell, even killing Barthandalus was what Barthandalus wanted! Etro is what saved Cocoon the first time, in the War of Transgression, not after. Vanille and Fang saved Cocoon in the end by turning into Ragnarok and using the power to save Cocoon with the crystal pillar instead of destroying it. The Cavalry or whatever were waging war to destroy Orphan anyway, so it's not like Cocoon was safe anyway. They were either going to wipe themselves out or destroy Orphan. Look it is clearly not the best plot ever written, but it's not as incomprehensible as either of you make it out to be. It's a Final Fantasy-level plot right up there with "Let's stop Shinra from trying to destroy Meteor because we are the Heroes despite being ecoterrorists and...  "
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Dec 1, 2014 17:10
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morallyobjected posted:Etro is what saved Cocoon the first time, in the War of Transgression, not after. Vanille and Fang saved Cocoon in the end by turning into Ragnarok and using the power to save Cocoon with the crystal pillar instead of destroying it. The Cavalry or whatever were waging war to destroy Orphan anyway, so it's not like Cocoon was safe anyway. They were either going to wipe themselves out or destroy Orphan. I didnt mean to get into an argument with you but that was my point all along...that all ff plots are pretty juvenile including FF7s which seemed like a masterpiece to me as a child but is actually pretty dumb.
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Dec 1, 2014 17:13
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What's up with the garbage dick avs?
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Dec 1, 2014 17:14
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I'm pretty sure Etro is what saved the heroes in the end. From what I remember, they were all Crystalized or turned into the monster things and then it was Etro who changed them back to normal. Without that, there'd be no Ragnarok to keep Cocoon from going boom. Granted I only played through XIII once and it was a few years ago but I could have swore I read Etro was instrumental in the ending, because I didn't understand the ending at all and had to read an explanation online. Also being "juvenile" does not make something "bad." Or are you saying all the books we read in middle school are poo poo just because we're adults now? I still think The Outsiders is held as a classic, whatever your age.
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Dec 1, 2014 17:15
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm pretty sure Etro is what saved the heroes in the end. From what I remember, they were all Crystalized or turned into the monster things and then it was Etro who changed them back to normal. Without that, there'd be no Ragnarok to keep Cocoon from going boom. If you mean when they were turned into 'Cieth right before the fight with Orphan, they did that themselves through the power of Friendship or whatever. Etro might have turned them back after they crystalised at the VERY end, when they had already saved it, but I don't remember the story of XIII-2 that much, and that part isn't explained in XIII.
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Dec 1, 2014 17:20
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm pretty sure Etro is what saved the heroes in the end. From what I remember, they were all Crystalized or turned into the monster things and then it was Etro who changed them back to normal. Without that, there'd be no Ragnarok to keep Cocoon from going boom. I am saying 2 separate things. 1. Final Fantasy plots are juvenile and this should be remembered while playing them. To teens they may be fantastic, to adults, less so. Kind of like Twilight or other juvenile teen literature. Still enjoyable but maybe not as deep or solid as they may seem to children, who they are designed for 2. Final Fantasy plots are bad. I find most to be enjoyable but as I get older the series had not matured with me. Doesnt stop me from liking them. btw I also think the outsiders is a classic as well as other juvenile stories like the little prince, but none of the finsl fantasies are these things.
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Dec 1, 2014 17:25
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Booties posted:What's up with the garbage dick avs? It's the new Stupid Newbie default, I believe. Also it makes it look like one person is arguing with themselves about Final Fantasy, which makes this entire chain a lot funnier. seriously though, this isn't the thread for arguing about whether or not FF13 is dumb or not.
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Dec 1, 2014 17:42
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TommyGun85 posted:I am saying 2 separate things. I will agree with you on some of #1, but not #2. They are not The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, but there's nothing that offensive about most of them. The characters make stupid choices sometimes, but so do all characters and people. The Lord of the Rings would have been over before it started if Isildur had just thrown the goddamn ring into the fires of Mount Doom, but he didn't. XII had a good, nuanced plot, even if you hated the gameplay, which many people seem to. X was also not particularly juvenile, overall. They are often not overly complex, but there isn't much that's specifically juvenile about existentialist crises of faith and the burden of creating peace in a society dominated by a giant gently caress-off monster and mass genocide of an entire race.
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Dec 1, 2014 17:49
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Psion posted:seriously though, this isn't the thread for arguing about whether or not FF13 is dumb or not. Heeeeyyyy  So to slightly tone up the story/narrative complexity discussion a little, given that the various members of our party are about to return to Midgar, informed and empowered by their experiences, do you think it is appropriate to describe FF7 as a Hero's Journey?
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Dec 1, 2014 17:58
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Indeterminacy posted:This thread are sick, though. So this chapter is the Scourging of the Shire or rescuing Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt of FFVII?
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Dec 1, 2014 18:00
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Patter Song posted:So this chapter is the Scourging of the Shire or rescuing Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt of FFVII?
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Dec 1, 2014 18:18
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simplefish posted:Let's not discuss ff character ages. Take, for example, Cid in FFVII. He's got to be over 50 to be that pissed off with the world, right? Wrong - he's 32. And if Yuffie's 16, there's no way I'm accepting that Zidane is too.
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Dec 1, 2014 18:26
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Hey, I dunno about the rest of you sheeple in this thread about enjoying FF7's story, but I've read actual, heh... literature. Compared to the likes of Naruto and other literary masterpieces Final Fantasy plots are like a bad pre-teen novel! Seriously, FF7's plot is a pretty fun pot-boiler. It's got fun twists and a messed up love triangle (square?). Most of its plot holes could be repaired without having to change the broader narrative. Get over yourself.
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Dec 1, 2014 18:29
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George posted:a messed up love triangle (square?) I play this game for the Red XIII-Yuffie-Barret-Vincent arc.
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Dec 1, 2014 18:40
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simplefish posted:Let's not discuss ff character ages. Take, for example, Cid in FFVII. He's got to be over 50 to be that pissed off with the world, right? Wrong - he's 32. And if Yuffie's 16, there's no way I'm accepting that Zidane is too. Nah, Cid being 32 in age is just about right. I know lots of people around this age who have had their dreams shattered who become that bitter. Maybe you arent at that point, or maybe you have gotten lucky with the game of life, but it seems a lot of serious conversations I had with people lately revolve around the fact that a lot of those grandiose dreams they used to have probably wont happen if they havent already. Maybe they always wanted to be an officer, but they couldnt get into OCS and now they are too old. Maybe they wanted to be an artist, but years of failure cause them to realize they arent good enough. Remmeber, Cid is a step beyond that. He was literally minutes away from his lifelong dream before eveyrthing went wrong. He knew the right thing to do was to abort the launch even though he could have just said "gently caress you you stupid ho, I am going to space. Peace." Then as time went on he realized that he had squandered his only opportunity because he had a conscience and had to see the results of his conscience and his failure all day everyday. Whether it be thr giant fuckoff rocket in town, or his wife who loved him enough to sacrifice for his dream, and he loved her enough to not make her extra crispy. His level of bitterness sounds just about right for his age given those ircumstances and if not given the opportunity to join up with Cloud and the others dude probably would have written a 50,000 page manifesto and gone on a homicidal rampage by 45.
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Dec 1, 2014 18:50
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Indeterminacy posted:Maybe! I mean, I don't want to spoil things that may be upcoming, but Barret has had his reflective moment calling back to the motives of the party at the start and how they're still all trying to do the right thing, and now here they are returning to the spot where it all began and dealing with their original enemies (Shinra/Bounty hunters/evil wizards) as ties in to their experiences in the wider world (Jenoveroth/the Force/the subtlety of corruption). Sadly, this is a video game. It's like Matrix: Path of Neo where the Wachawski Brothers (er, Siblings now) said "oh sure, we had Neo go all Jesus and lose to Smith but that really wouldn't work in a video game so instead we have a Giganto Smith final boss you have to beat up." So, while Frodo also might have become Jesus (or, well, Jesus-like, so as not to offend Mr. Tolkien) and turned the other cheek against Saruman, I don't see Cloud and co. just letting Hojo and the rest go free. It doesn't work in a video game..
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Dec 1, 2014 18:58
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waah posted:Nah, Cid being 32 in age is just about right. I know lots of people around this age who have had their dreams shattered who become that bitter. Maybe you arent at that point, or maybe you have gotten lucky with the game of life, but it seems a lot of serious conversations I had with people lately revolve around the fact that a lot of those grandiose dreams they used to have probably wont happen if they havent already. Shera isn't his wife. She's just a Shinra scientist who has OCD about checking oxygen tanks (good thing, too, since one was faulty and would have probably destroyed the rocket had it launched) and felt guilty about causing Cid to stop the rocket launch.
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Dec 1, 2014 18:59
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waah posted:Nah, Cid being 32 in age is just about right. I know lots of people around this age who have had their dreams shattered who become that bitter. Maybe you arent at that point, or maybe you have gotten lucky with the game of life, but it seems a lot of serious conversations I had with people lately revolve around the fact that a lot of those grandiose dreams they used to have probably wont happen if they havent already. He also Smokes constantly and drinks like a fish. Of course the Dude looks old and rough as hell. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 19:00
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:He aklso Smokes constantly and drinks like a fish. Of course the Dude looks old and rough as hell.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:13
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:He aklso Smokes constantly and drinks like a fish. Of course the Dude looks old and rough as hell. drinks like a fish? what exactly is in THE GODDAMN TEA
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Dec 1, 2014 19:20
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LEGO Genetics posted:drinks like a fish? what exactly is in THE GODDAMN TEA
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Dec 1, 2014 20:03
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NikkolasKing posted:Sadly, this is a video game. It's like Matrix: Path of Neo where the Wachawski Brothers (er, Siblings now) said "oh sure, we had Neo go all Jesus and lose to Smith but that really wouldn't work in a video game so instead we have a Giganto Smith final boss you have to beat up." On the other hand, it's worth noting that in the Star Wars and Lord of the Rings examples, while the heroes offered the villains a chance to go and sin no more, they refused and ended up very dead anyway (and in the Star Wars example is lead to a bitchin' fight sequence too). So it's not like fight-y resolutions are specific to games or anything.
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Dec 1, 2014 20:52
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Great Joe posted:heidegger puts lard in his No, that was Palmer.
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Dec 1, 2014 20:57
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Maybe the planet just takes longer to orbit the sun, or peoples metabolisms may be faster, or they don't sleep for 1/3 of their lives. Anyway you have to remember to apply the double then take 7 rule from converting from japanese to american age, it's because its in a different timezone. I guess when it comes to stories in all video games, to some extent you are hamstrung by the mechanics of the game, if all you can do as a player is shoot guns then the climax of the story either has to be shooting something with a gun or there's gonna be a massive disconnect between gameplay and narrative. I don't believe video games need great or elaborate plots, mere cohesion with maybe a twist in the second act is all I really want. I think world building in terms of the environments, mythos and societies are where video games can truly shine when it comes to story telling.
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Dec 1, 2014 21:33
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CmdrKing posted:On the other hand, it's worth noting that in the Star Wars and Lord of the Rings examples, while the heroes offered the villains a chance to go and sin no more, they refused and ended up very dead anyway (and in the Star Wars example is lead to a bitchin' fight sequence too). So it's not like fight-y resolutions are specific to games or anything. Also in the seminal work of fiction "dragon ball z" goku offers freiza some of his ki after he has been cut in half by his own foolishness. He refuses to repent his evil ways and is exploded, only to later come back as a robot. Undoubtedly an influence on George Lucas's magnum opus the prequal trilogy with the battle between anakin skywalker and obi wan kenobi. Proof that some stories are timeless.
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Dec 1, 2014 21:42
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Chapter 96 - Bungee Oogie Oogie The next part of the game is triggered when we fly over Midgar with the Highwind. If you're playing the game and using the LP as a guide, keep this in mind if you want to finish off those sidequests - you might wanna avoid passing by Midgar not to trigger the event.   Barret: "There'll be no way we could slip into the slums." This is a problem. Somehow the only way to get to Midgar is through the slums (through the train which is obviously not working right now). I wonder how people get in and out of the city since the doors are usually closed?   Cid: "If land's no go... we'll go by air!" Hell yea.  I like how they just roll with the plan.  Like, no second thoughts or anything. We're storming this city from above. Everyone just wanted an excuse to do it.  Wheeeeeeee!  They see me rollin'  They hatin'   I don't envy the people who had to sync the cinematics with the real-time models.  Tryin' to catch me fallin dirty.  This is how we roll. Now to actually start the mission.  Subtle isn't the exact word to describe our grand entry. So yes, let's go underground.  This is a pretty good background.  You can see some of the posters back from the opening cinematic all over the place. I like Tifa's remark.  Well, I sure don't know this underground. I mean, this is no Temple of Ancients, but still manages to be pretty annoying.  This place would have a much different feeling in 3D. I mean - we're floating in the air. This place with an Oculus Rift would make people vomit. We don't get to see "dangerous angles" because we already know Cloud can survive a pretty long fall, so this is just routine.  Overall this place is just a huge test of patience to see whether you can endure all the different screens to get the chest items. The reason is because the encounter rate in this area is incredibly annoying. I equipped two [Enemy Away] materias to deal with it.  The [Aegis Armlet] is very unique.  It gives you 50% Magic Evasion, which is pretty good when you're stacking defenses. Too bad most of the really powerful attacks you'll take are physical.  A very average, down-to-earth attack.  Now this is just cruel. It gives me I Wanna Be The Guy flashbacks.  This entire section is basically a bunch of backtracking in order to pick up the chests. They aren't even that good.  This area contains the Behemoth, a very famous Final Fantasy enemy. It's surprisingly strong compared to the other enemies, but it has such low HP that even with its powerful attacks it's not much of a challenge.  The Max Ray is an incredibly powerful weapon for Barret.   With 97 Attack it has one of the biggest attack damages in the game. It's almost an Ultimate Weapon in that regard, even better in some cases.  Oh cmon now you're just messing with me.  Let's get out of this place, towards the Plate sewers.  We can go up or down. Let's go down first.  As Red points out, going down isn't the proper way, but it's still really important. There are multiple Sources among the way, and a very special materia at the end.  The enemies are all very reminiscent of the mechs we see in the early areas of the game, which is nice. The encounter rate here isn't all that annoying since we're pretty much going on a straight line.  Lots of Sources, pretty much one of each.   Minor detail, but I like how the tunnels have small variations so not to look too repetitive.  And our final reward. [W-Item] can only be found here. As the name implies, it allows you to use two items in the same turn. It's also a super important materia as it opens up a game-breaking bug that allows you to duplicate combat items. This may not seem much but it actually is - it can be extended to duplicate some sources and duplicating Elixirs is super useful for the endgame, due to one of the biggest sources of AP being a monster that requires you to feed it an Elixir first. Seriously. Let's head back since this is a dead-end.   Of course! Would you look at that?  It's our friends the Turks! And Elena really wants not to fight with us.   Elena: "Yes, sir. You're right." Reno: "Come on, we've got work to do." Elena: "Our orders were to seek you out and... kill." Oh man.  Oooooh man.  Yea, there's really nothing to say. I think at this point Cloud just can't believe the guts.  Which gives us the funniest option that becomes available if you've done the Wutai sidequest before.  I mean, at this point we're just pitying them, which is hilarious from a gameplay standpoint. This is a downright acknowledgment that the Turks are worthless, and there's nothing they can do about it because they sure as hell can't defeat us and they know it. Reno: "Wait, Elena." Elena: "Reno! You're not violating the order... are you!?" Yea, this is most definitely the final nail in the coffin.  Oh now you're just screwing with her.  I'm almost dropping a tear here. I hate long goodbyes.  Farewell you beautiful bastards.  Just kidding. There's no way I'm letting these clowns go.  Yea, it's the relationship between Lemmings and a cliff. Get dunked.  This battle has all the marks of a traditional Turks fight - it's easy, it has very important items which can be stolen, Rude will never attack Tifa, it's heavily scripted, etc.  Also - the moment you defeat one Turk, the other two run away - but you only gain the Experience and AP from the one you defeated. Which means the optimal way to defeat them is to kill them all at the same time.  This battle is also unique in that no matter what happens, Elena will always start with the first action. Other than that the main challenge is to steal from all of them while keeping track of their HP so you can finish them off at the same time.  While we have stolen their Tough Ring and Ziedrich before, the unique [Minerva Band] Elena wears is special because it's the equivalent of the [Escort Guard] armor exclusive for female characters.  We shall do that Tifa. Right on! NEXT TIME: We get sidetracked and don't go to the cannon. Chapter 96 Bugs & Bytes Doubling your Items So. [W-Item] is a pretty ridiculous materia. It allows you to duplicate any of your combat items. And it's not even hard - I mean, at some point someone using W-Item is bound to find it out by him/herself. Whenever you use an item with W-Item you immediately get the prompt to use an item again. However if you select an item then cancel it you'll return to the previous prompt - except this time the first item you used will duplicate. The bug probably occurs because when you use an item the game reduces the value of that item by 1, so if you cancel the command it has to give you +1 of that item back in the case of W-Item. However the script is only called when you're using the second item, not the first, which allows you to cancel it infinitely many times (and so, get 99 of a single item). In fact, what not a lot of people know is that if you use an item, then cancel without picking an item, then cancel again, you'll lose that item permanently even though you didn't use it! They call the (+1 item) function at the worst possible time. Ambushed! NO U This Turks fight is the last fight that allows you to ambush the boss, by being a boss battle in an area where random battles are possible. However, since Elena has a scripted first attack, even if you ambush the Turks she'll still attack first, making it a very confusing first turn. 
Elentor fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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Dec 2, 2014 01:32
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I know that the item duping is technically a bug, but I've always thought of it as a really great feature.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:45
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The parachuting sequence is my favorite in the whole game.
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Dec 2, 2014 02:34
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The Turks don't even warrant boss music. Poor guys.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:04
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