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Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

Bifauxnen posted:

1984 doesn't offer any solution

FWIW, the book ends with an essay on Newspeak written in the past tense, implying that the IngSoc government somehow collapsed after Winston's time and was replaced by a free society.

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Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

I'm here


I don't even -need- AoT to show a solution. But if it's not going to show a solution, I feel that the consequences of what has played out should be very starkly shown. The manga ended showing background characters being merely uncomfortable or tired, and our main characters living in exile but also living a life of comfort being lauded as heroes. As has been mentioned many times, the ecological damage done is merely glossed over in a single sentence as if it was nothing more than a mild inconvenience. We are given numbers, but numbers are very easy for people to brush off or ignore. Hell, look at how much the goalposts have moved in the US since 9/11. We were collectively horrified at the death toll there, but many people aren't even blinking at the death toll of Covid which is far, far greater.

Show the effects of so many people dying. Show the effects of the ecological damage done.

McConnell
Feb 5, 2021


I suppose I'll ask this: do people in this thread think Attack on Titan has a happy ending?

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

I'm here


I think it has an ending.

Strawberry Pyramid
Dec 12, 2020


It ended. That made me happy. So sure?

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Is a saint not entitled to the skin of his foot?






99% of humanity gets genocided into orange soda but jpop starts playing and the screen pans to the jubilant protagonists sniffing handwriting

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011



The ending reads to me like it's supposed to make us feel relieved that all the characters we've bought merch of and written fanfics about survived and became "heroes". But also most of humanity is dead and the hitler party is in power and oh I guess the forests of the world are gone, wow, good thing no one addresses what that would actually entail! How convenient that neither the cast nor their families were part of that unlucky 80% of humanity that just died! Eren Yaeger was... The coolest guy!

It's either an incompetently told attempt at a happy ending or a deliberate middle finger at the idea that fiction must have happy endings whether its appropriate or not. If the authorial intent was clearer on which one happened, then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion right now.


These are good points. Thank you.

YF-23
Feb 17, 2011

My god, it's full of cat!




I get the impression that it's meant as a hopeful ending since the main cast is on a mission for peace and we are supposed to think that since the titans are gone the pressure to treat the Eldians as pariahs is also gone. The problem is just how blind that is to the insane damage and devastation that happened just prior to that as a motivating factor for distrust and hatred. I'm not sure there's any ground for peace between the remainder of the world and the "Eren did nothing wrong" Eldian government, even if Armin and co. manage to convince them to tone down the genocide-worship.

The fact is that the story isn't interested in recognising that something beyond redemption has occured, and having given the protagonist role broadly to the Eldians, is cutting them a tonne of slack that it refused to do for anyone else: the governments of Marley and its allied nations are usually not depicted at all, but we are to understand that they are committed to destroying Paradis to the point where they can only be stopped by force. But once Paradis under Eren and the Yeagerists does commit an act of genocidal attrocity against the rest of the world, we conclude with a mission for peace.

This is in part a consequence of the way the relationship between the Titans and the Eldians was written, and part of the reason why, even though the basement reveal was loving genius, I believe it wrecked the story going forward. Isayama wrote himself into a corner in which he had to world-build around a nonsensical racial dynamic. All the good parts of the story from then onward have to write themselves around the existence of an extremely powerful slave warrior caste that is both treated as subhuman with no chance for redemption (even for, as we are repeatedly shown, the titan warriors) and also completely docile.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




YF-23 posted:

This is in part a consequence of the way the relationship between the Titans and the Eldians was written, and part of the reason why, even though the basement reveal was loving genius, I believe it wrecked the story going forward. Isayama wrote himself into a corner in which he had to world-build around a nonsensical racial dynamic. All the good parts of the story from then onward have to write themselves around the existence of an extremely powerful slave warrior caste that is both treated as subhuman with no chance for redemption (even for, as we are repeatedly shown, the titan warriors) and also completely docile.

Yeah this is one of the main problems with any fantasy media that has super powered oppressed people. I'm kind of wondering how people in this thread would respond to the series The Broken Earth which has a similar dynamic and similar huge amounts of loss of life and environmental effects. All three books in the trilogy won Hugo awards though so people generally seem happy with the ending. Might be worth checking out if you want an idea of how AoT could have handled its complicated subjects in a more crowd pleasing way.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


McConnell posted:

I suppose I'll ask this: do people in this thread think Attack on Titan has a happy ending?

Tragic but hopeful.

GimmickMan posted:

Eren Yaeger was... The coolest guy!

If you're referencing Reiner's line, that's a mistranslation from the speedscan.

He's actually calling him a fucker.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


McConnell posted:

I suppose I'll ask this: do people in this thread think Attack on Titan has a happy ending?

Delusional hopeful I guess, but not happy.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




McConnell posted:

I suppose I'll ask this: do people in this thread think Attack on Titan has a happy ending?

It's more like I'm witnessing something horrifying while a guy shouts "And then they lived happily ever after! Look at all those characters you like still alive! You'll buy the merch, won't you? Isn't it great that Annie and Armin get to be together? Isn't Mikasa cool? Won't you buy some merch?"

This is the best way I can sum up the experience of reading the final chapter.

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


It was jarring to me in the sense that the surviving cast is laser focused on peace with Marley and don't even mention the fact that there is a very high likelihood that humanity is loving screwed due to the damage the Rumbling did to the ecosystem.

Even a single line from Armin being like "we're trying to get the survivors to see past this petty bullshit because we will probably die off within a few generations if we don't pull it together now" would have been some kind of acknowledgement that if you look beyond Marley or Paradis stuff, the planet is in a super, super dire spot.

ChaseSP
Mar 25, 2013



To be fair, irs a case of most the world is hosed hard and the oceans world wide will go through their own mass extinction but there's pockets of land that enough should be enough for people to live off on in a desperate bid for survival and praying it doesn't gently caress up too badly.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


MechaX posted:

It was jarring to me in the sense that the surviving cast is laser focused on peace with Marley and don't even mention the fact that there is a very high likelihood that humanity is loving screwed due to the damage the Rumbling did to the ecosystem.

Even a single line from Armin being like "we're trying to get the survivors to see past this petty bullshit because we will probably die off within a few generations if we don't pull it together now" would have been some kind of acknowledgement that if you look beyond Marley or Paradis stuff, the planet is in a super, super dire spot.

Is it?

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012



I mean, yeah? The destruction of basically all the forests they stomped on alone means humanity is completely boned

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"



Eren wiped out most, if not likely all the forests outside of Paradis, and the act of having colossal titans trample over the Earth is going to make large swaths of land wastelands for many, many, many years. And this doesn't even account for plant and animal life it wrecked too. No matter how self-sufficient Paradis is, this eventually will come back to bite them in the rear end hard (either the planet is going to do it, or Marley is going to pop off pretty hard when the inevitable food crisis starts).

Plus, eighty percent of humanity gone is also a gigantic deal in of itself. The people outside of Marley and Paradis either have to migrate to Paradis/Marley (which they also won't know survived) or take their chances out there with limited support.

MechaX fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Apr 27, 2021

Casey Finnigan
Apr 29, 2009

Dumb ✔
So goddamn crazy ✔


Setting up for a sequel series where a kid whose mom dies in Eren's Rumbling ultimately goes on to kill off 80% of the remaining members of humanity.

Annointed
Mar 2, 2013



I think lacking the major devastation of the world was a major missed opportunity of the final ending. Or you know people living in the wastelands wanting to murder the Yeagerists for abetting global genocide of everything.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Asuron posted:

I mean, yeah? The destruction of basically all the forests they stomped on alone means humanity is completely boned

Shouldn't be.

I mean it's bad from a biodiversity standpoint, but it's not a biosphere death sentence.

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

I'm not sure Isayama or his editors thought through what crushing most of the planet's forests would actually mean for the environment.

I mean, they don't seem to have thought through a lot of other stuff.

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


Conspiratiorist posted:

Shouldn't be.

I mean it's bad from a biodiversity standpoint, but it's not a biosphere death sentence.

I mean... yeah, it is a death sentence

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190911-what-would-happen-if-all-the-worlds-trees-disappeared

And this could have been alleviated even in universe with the explanation of "Eren was never actually taught this but Armin is smart enough to realize how vital it is that what is left of humanity needs to work together"

MechaX fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Apr 28, 2021

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011



Conspiratiorist posted:

If you're referencing Reiner's line, that's a mistranslation from the speedscan.

He's actually calling him a fucker.

It's a naruto meme from when a major antagonist that killed tens of thousands because he was obsessed over a 12 year old girl is called a hero by the protagonist.

Frionnel
May 7, 2010

Friends are what make testing worth it.

Nevermind how all those colossal titans probably overheated the ocean and killed most of the aquatic fauna on the way to the continent.

hatty
Feb 28, 2011



Pork Pro

I want a sequel series following the thousands of naked eldians that woke up one day wondering what the gently caress just happened

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Pththya-lyi posted:

I'm not sure Isayama or his editors thought through what crushing most of the planet's forests would actually mean for the environment.


I mean, there's not thinking about it, and then there's actively bringing it up before ignoring it, even with a potential out set up earlier with the plants growing in a titan's footprints (something that never got followup.)

There's a lot that's weird about the last chapter.

Frionnel
May 7, 2010

Friends are what make testing worth it.

YF-23 posted:

All the good parts of the story from then onward have to write themselves around the existence of an extremely powerful slave warrior caste that is both treated as subhuman with no chance for redemption (even for, as we are repeatedly shown, the titan warriors) and also completely docile.

Except they aren't extremely powerful, because they have no way of becoming titans by themselves. Any eldian who isn't a shifter is just a completely normal human being, until their free will and humanity is taken away by someone else, through titan serum and/or Zeke's scream. And once titanized not only they can only act on basic titan instinct, the process is completely irreversible unless they eat a shifter or a mystical ancient worm is killed through convoluted means.

They also aren't completely docile. A lot of them have internalized the prejudice against them, yes, but Grisha's Restorationist Movement shows that Marley has to actively crack down on Eldian dissent. But they can't use their superpowers to rise up in revolution.

The only thing that classifies as a "powerful slave warrior caste" is the shifters, and there's a grand total of 9 at the beginning of the series. Out of them, one is loyal to the head of Marley, one is the head of Paradis who is bound by a vow of non agression, and five who are brainwashed child soldiers, which leaves only two who are actually able to scheme against the system.

Frionnel fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Apr 28, 2021

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


MechaX posted:

I mean... yeah, it is a death sentence

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190911-what-would-happen-if-all-the-worlds-trees-disappeared

And this could have been alleviated even in universe with the explanation of "Eren was never actually taught this but Armin is smart enough to realize how vital it is that what is left of humanity needs to work together"

Still not a biosphere death sentence. If anything, it got staved off by a few centuries that with the massive depopulation.

Actual mass extinctions begin in the oceans, by altering ocean biochemistry. The one time carbon release from the Rumbling would be a blip absent a global industrial civilization pumping deeply sequestered carbon back into the cycle.

Expect a few weird weather years, and massive dustbowls in some regions until the ravaged biomes transition into grasslands, but the long-term consequences wouldn't be anywhere near close to as apocalyptic as the Rumbling in the first place.

Frionnel posted:

Nevermind how all those colossal titans probably overheated the ocean and killed most of the aquatic fauna on the way to the continent.

You should take a look at ocean traffic maps. The scale of what we're currently doing to our planet, in the real world, is on an entirely different level.

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011



I'm no climatologist but my understanding of the Great Oxidation Event was that it was caused by an excess growth of plants on land.

It's a nitpick at best because the atmosphere of AoT is not remotely like the early atmosphere of the time before animals existed and the rumbling is causing the opposite scenario. But, like, it could happen, I guess. There's a nonzero chance Isayama is going for a different kind of anthropocene mass extinction event only he isn't making it explicit because no one is even aware it could happen???

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


Conspiratiorist posted:

Still not a biosphere death sentence. If anything, it got staved off by a few centuries that with the massive depopulation.

Actual mass extinctions begin in the oceans, by altering ocean biochemistry. The one time carbon release from the Rumbling would be a blip absent a global industrial civilization pumping deeply sequestered carbon back into the cycle.

Expect a few weird weather years, and massive dustbowls in some regions until the ravaged biomes transition into grasslands, but the long-term consequences wouldn't be anywhere near close to as apocalyptic as the Rumbling in the first place.

I mean, especially based on the article I cited I think you are vastly underestimating how bad eliminating the forests, let alone how much damage to the planet Eren must have done to eliminate 4/5ths of human society, really is, because by all accounts this really isn't just a biodiversity problem. Carbon gets released even by cutting down trees alone, but that's also not even accounting for stuff like land gradually being lost to the ocean if rain occurs by drought, or if it doesn't occur, mass soil erosion making a lot of land uninhabitable, oxygen and air pollution issues, etc, etc.

And the only real nations left are the ones with a 1000+ year old history and grudge.

Nah, that's not something you just walk off and deal with the inconvenience of weird weather for a bit. And unlike the Rumbling which somehow did catastrophic damage in a matter of days, this will be a very long, arduous, and drawn out suffering.

And I would say that Isayama at least considered this for a bit, because it really seems like a weirdly specific thing to just kind of throw in when what we end up seeing doesn't really match the tone of what must of happened.

MechaX fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Apr 28, 2021

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

GimmickMan posted:

I'm no climatologist but my understanding of the Great Oxidation Event was that it was caused by an excess growth of plants on land.

Wanst it caused primarly by cyanobacteria?

MechaX posted:

I mean, especially based on the article I cited I think you are vastly underestimating how bad eliminating the forests, let alone how much damage to the planet Eren must have done to eliminate 4/5ths of human society, really is, because by all accounts this really isn't just a biodiversity problem. Carbon gets released even by cutting down trees alone, but that's also not even accounting for stuff like land gradually being lost to the ocean if rain occurs by drought, or if it doesn't occur, mass soil erosion making a lot of land uninhabitable, oxygen and air pollution issues, etc, etc.

And the only real nations left are the ones with a 1000+ year old history and grudge.

Nah, that's not something you just walk off and deal with the inconvenience of weird weather for a bit.

And I would say that Isayama at least considered this for a bit, because it really seems like a weirdly specific thing to just kind of throw in when what we end up seeing doesn't really match the tone of what must of happened.

It inst just forests: the rumbling would have flattened most ecosystem on earth. I do believe Paradis could survive, but they would also face some kind of climatic backlash too

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


Elias_Maluco posted:

It inst just forests: the rumbling would have flattened most ecosystem on earth. I do believe Paradis could survive, but they would also face some kind of climatic backlash too

I think Paradis could hold on (at least for awhile) given that's been mostly self-sufficient up to now, but yeah, in a few generations I could see things getting real rough once the climate implications start to show. Plus I guess some of Paradis had to be rumbled for the wall titans to even get out of there too, so that might suck in the short term too.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Nah, there's a shot of them walking single-file down roads and pathways to get out before spreading out.

Also I don't think isayama even considered the ecological implications beyond "I broke all the forests too lol"

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Captain Invictus posted:

Nah, there's a shot of them walking single-file down roads and pathways to get out before spreading out.

Also I don't think isayama even considered the ecological implications beyond "I broke all the forests too lol"

Like people said: if he didint, why even mention it?

This final chapter is so bad is really hard to understand how or why

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Why didn’t anyone tell me there was a Jean version of the opening?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fqyAXOdWUsA

If he was the main character none of this would’ve happened.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


GimmickMan posted:

I'm no climatologist but my understanding of the Great Oxidation Event was that it was caused by an excess growth of plants on land.

Nah, land plants came much later. Like 2 billion years later.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


Long term the planet recovers, but not before the existing biodiversity is largely pushed into extinction including the humans. We're talking cosmic scale it might recover, there is no feasible path to saving the planet for the life that exists there now without them literally banding together to replant huge swaths of greenery. That probably wouldn't even do it because all the animal mechanisms required to support those greenery surviving and spreading are gone too.

If in fact he destroyed 80% of the trees, the world is hosed for a long long time and all anyone really has to look forward to is a slow wasting away especially for the ensuing generations. The rumbling given the consequences that were thrown out in the final chapter looks REALLY loving dumb since it cannot accomplish what he wants it to "setting his people free". He's just doomed them and the rest of humanity to extinction in a few generations barring massive technological advancement beyond anything shown as possible in the story.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




It's super weird cause apparently part of Marley is okay at the end? Wasn't Marley the closest nation to Paradis? How could the Rumbling take out 80 percent of the planet and not even finish destroying Marley?

It could have just been 20%, Isayama. That's already a huge loss of life. It didn't need to be planet destroying consequences which has no bearing on the themes of the story.

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

Elias_Maluco posted:

Like people said: if he didint, why even mention it?

Because it sounds dramatic.

Isayama wouldn't be the first spec-fic writer to lack a sense of scale. I mean, take another grim and gritty franchise that AoT gets compared to a lot: Game of Thrones. How are all these lords able to keep thousands of soldiers in the field for months at a time without modern supply lines? How does humanity survive years of winter? How can the Night's Watch properly target attackers at the Wall from 700 feet up? How can huge dragons walk and fly under their own power?

Or take other famous franchises: How can mechas even walk around, let alone fight? Why can't Star Trek keep its warp speeds consistent? Shouldn't the wreckage of the second Death Star have rained down on the forest moon of Endor, devastating the Ewoks? (Thinking about this makes the final scene of Return of the Jedi ghoulish. Why are the Rebels kicking back and partying when they should be scrambling to save their allies from fiery death?)

Even within this franchise, there's a lot of scientific hand-waving. How can the Titans maintain their massive body weights and heal grievous wounds within minutes simply through...I don't know, photosynthesis? How do shifters make crystal instantly? How come everybody doesn't snap their spines every time they use ODM gear? We can accept these narrative facts without questioning them, even though they don't make scientific sense. Why are we assuming scientific realism for this one plot point?

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iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



What I'm gathering is the ending should have included more educated members of the gang talking poo poo to Eren about his ignorance of geo-science and the fact that he's doomed the entire planet including Eldians.

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