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Bigwinnie101
Jan 26, 2020


So I saw this Video awhile ago that was the ending of attack on titan season 3's ending song from Linked Horizon's official video and I watched again last night after the chapter and it all kinda clicked to me about what is going on in it. The drat Video seems to be the ending of the manga from a different point of view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbV3Yr3KCyg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbV3Yr3KCyg

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Sub Harrison
May 2, 2013



Kreguer repeats the last words Grisha says to Eren in their flashback, which implies all the Attack Titans are subconsciously influenced with memories of the future holders. It's a bit of paths fuckery how Grisha and Eren actually got explicit visions of the future. Maybe it was a forgotten rule of the old Eldian empire: Whatever you do don't let the Attack Titan in the coordinate plane.

Terper
Jun 26, 2012




Bigwinnie101 posted:

So I saw this Video awhile ago that was the ending of attack on titan season 3's ending song from Linked Horizon's official video and I watched again last night after the chapter and it all kinda clicked to me about what is going on in it. The drat Video seems to be the ending of the manga from a different point of view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbV3Yr3KCyg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbV3Yr3KCyg

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Just like Eren, Isayama was showing us visions of the future. But we didn't understand what it meant until it arrived.

I really hope yams writes another manga after this, he's pretty good at this stuff

Terper
Jun 26, 2012




Write the drat romcom the people want.

Kild
Apr 24, 2010


Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


The visuals of the end of the season 2 ED obviously hinted at stuff that hadn't happened in the anime yet, but it also showed new stuff, like Ymir's daughters eating her corpse. Similarly, the first season 3 ED shows Historia mimicking Ymir's origin story well before it happened in the manga.
This series is wild.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Eren's going to lose his leg again? That's strong evidence for the end of the titan curse.

Do the superfriends survive, considering Eren is explicitly doing this for them?

hmmmmmmm

bees x1000 fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Aug 5, 2020

Terper
Jun 26, 2012




bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


I never buy manga but if this series gets some affordable complete set I may go for it.

Thoren
May 28, 2008


Wait so did Grisha know future Eren the whole time or did Eren gently caress with the past?

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Thoren posted:

Wait so did Grisha know future Eren the whole time or did Eren gently caress with the past?

Not that I think they'll go into this detail, but I personally believe it's linear rather than a time loop. Meaning, I think Eren's getting information and behavioral mods (from cannibalizing more Titans) as time goes on and creating new alternate dimensions with each action he takes. Mostly because I just don't think Grisha would've gone down his path had he truly known what Eren would do beforehand.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





iamsosmrt posted:

Not that I think they'll go into this detail, but I personally believe it's linear rather than a time loop. Meaning, I think Eren's getting information and behavioral mods (from cannibalizing more Titans) as time goes on and creating new alternate dimensions with each action he takes. Mostly because I just don't think Grisha would've gone down his path had he truly known what Eren would do beforehand.

Except he did. And he knew, from how he immediately told Zeke that Eren needed to be stopped.

...And that Eren wouldn't be stopped.

There's something Grisha saw at the end of this Hell that made him go along with Eren's plan despite his misgivings. Some future memory that convinced him to keep moving forward, despite knowing and hating the evil his younger son would do.

There's something beyond Hell, although I don't think Eren knows how he's getting there any better than the reader does. His power just gives him snatches of memory, letting him know what happened without knowing why or how.

(Funny thing is, the most optimistic thing about the cycle of hate prior to this comes from Kenny, of all people. His friendship with Uri was described as a miracle, and it even bore fruit, letting Mikasa and Levi live free of the persecution that hounded their families.

...Of course, Kenny also said that if Uri hadn't been strong enough to stop him, Kenny would have killed him and poo poo in his skull, so it's not like miracles come easy in Attack on Titan.)

One thing that's optimistic-given-the-circumstances about that video is that it suggests there's still people living in the outside world. The bird's lizard disguise wouldn't make much sense in a world without lizards.

Isamaya said that releasing the last panel early was inspired by Breaking Bad. The way the show told you something was going to happen at the start of the season and let you slowly piece things together as it went along. We have all these clues, all this information... but there's still the question of how it all fits.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



chiasaur11 posted:

Except he did. And he knew, from how he immediately told Zeke that Eren needed to be stopped.

...And that Eren wouldn't be stopped.

There's something Grisha saw at the end of this Hell that made him go along with Eren's plan despite his misgivings. Some future memory that convinced him to keep moving forward, despite knowing and hating the evil his younger son would do.

There's something beyond Hell, although I don't think Eren knows how he's getting there any better than the reader does. His power just gives him snatches of memory, letting him know what happened without knowing why or how.

(Funny thing is, the most optimistic thing about the cycle of hate prior to this comes from Kenny, of all people. His friendship with Uri was described as a miracle, and it even bore fruit, letting Mikasa and Levi live free of the persecution that hounded their families.

...Of course, Kenny also said that if Uri hadn't been strong enough to stop him, Kenny would have killed him and poo poo in his skull, so it's not like miracles come easy in Attack on Titan.)

One thing that's optimistic-given-the-circumstances about that video is that it suggests there's still people living in the outside world. The bird's lizard disguise wouldn't make much sense in a world without lizards.

Isamaya said that releasing the last panel early was inspired by Breaking Bad. The way the show told you something was going to happen at the start of the season and let you slowly piece things together as it went along. We have all these clues, all this information... but there's still the question of how it all fits.

Hmm, I'm not convinced that's evidence against a linear path. By my theory, by the time Zeke visited Grisha with Eren, this would be the alternate reality Grisha that was already visited by a version of Paths/Apocalypse Eren.

Like whether the other things that have happened were unchangeable (like Mikasa's scarf), there's no argument that would convince me that Grisha knowingly enacted the sequence of actions that turned Eren into the Attack Titan if he knew what would happen and was strongly against it. He seemed like a man full of regret by the time he speaks to Zeke. If it turns out Eren more or less willed him to do it, I guess I'll stand corrected.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Perhaps Grisha did what he had to do, just like Eren. Eren's a man full of regret as well.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


I like this graph for understanding the future-past stuff.

Sub Harrison
May 2, 2013



It's interesting that Ymir is staring at the kid before he's crushed. Eren knew he was about to kill everyone in the city, but he specifically showed remorse to that kid. Is Eren's vision of the future seen through his own eyes or through Ymir? I get the feeling the attack titan represents a vessel for Ymir's rage against the world moreso than freedom for the Eldians.

e: That infographic above is great.

Sub Harrison fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Aug 6, 2020

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


I think it's clear now that there's not some extra layer to Eren's plan (at least, not the Eren that we're dealing with at PRESENT). So no Leto II poo poo from him. But I'm still highly suspicious of Ymir, and think she might have her own greater game in mind. And I think Zeke still has a part to play.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Multiple twitter sources saying season 4 is still slated to start in October. Hype.

Ethiser
Dec 31, 2011



Beefstew posted:

But I'm still highly suspicious of Ymir, and think she might have her own greater game in mind.

That would be pretty weird. Sheís an uneducated peasant who lived her life before and after death in crushing slavery, not really a lifestyle the creates a secret puppet master. She seems to just want to, understandably, rage against the world for the horrible life sheís lived.

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


chiasaur11 posted:

It's... complicated.

Eren's seen these memories for years, and every time he's tried to go off script, things keep going forward like they always were going to. (It's likely that a lot of his odd Mikasa moments were trying to keep things from being what he knew they'd be.) He's had years of dealing with the almost certain knowledge that, one day, he'd start the Rumbling, that he'd have friends (Sasha at minimum, probably more) die due to his actions, and that he'd have freely chosen his path.

(His yelling at Hange is relevant here. He wanted an out, something to say in bold "Good news, Eren! We'll all be fine if you don't kill millions of innocent people!" and she didn't come through.)

As the deadline got closer, and the world seemed to lean more and more towards genocide, he was more and more convinced this was inevitable us-or-them, because he knew he'd decide to wipe everyone out in the future. Basically, it's precognition reinforcing existing reasoning.

And it's even worse, because before he knew all the reasons he'd do it, he knew he'd go on a killing rampage, which meant he had to fill in every reason he might, had to admit every other possible motive... which lead to his telling the kid this chapter that one of his motives was probably just a childish wish to have an empty world to explore. This unforgivably petty thing, as bad as Reiner's desire to be a hero, with even worse results. He knows that that isn't worth killing over. But... he saw it happen anyway.

(There's also some major Historia related motives in the mix somewhere. Making it so she wouldn't have to become a titan, trapped in the cycle of child eating parent, was his reason for being sure the 50 year plan wasn't even an option for avoiding the rumbling.)

This is a good summary of how itís all going. The worst part mustíve been having to finally accept it and thatís why we get the cold , detached Eren we saw. He gave in to the inevitability, that in the end heíll never be free the way he wanted to be and is why he reacts so angrily when Armin calls him a slave.

He tried to break the loop, but it kept going on no matter what he did and he knows now that he was always a slave to the events now occurring. Much like Reiner , now he has regressed into another personality (his child years) because in the end he simply couldnít handle what heís done.

New Super Metis
Aug 1, 2014




These last two pages have really helped me to understand what's been going on in the story. I haven't been thinking about it too hard, and the schedule led me to forget a lot about paths and the causality loop.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


It adds some more weight to the final panel. Talking to the baby, "you are free", not "we are free" Eren will never be free. A slave to fate, and then shackled with immeasurable guilt.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Asuron posted:

This is a good summary of how itís all going. The worst part mustíve been having to finally accept it and thatís why we get the cold , detached Eren we saw. He gave in to the inevitability, that in the end heíll never be free the way he wanted to be and is why he reacts so angrily when Armin calls him a slave.

He tried to break the loop, but it kept going on no matter what he did and he knows now that he was always a slave to the events now occurring. Much like Reiner , now he has regressed into another personality (his child years) because in the end he simply couldnít handle what heís done.

Want an extra layer of kicker to that one?

That very scene has Eren fighting against fate as hard as humanly possible. He's lying to his closest childhood friends, hurting them, in a last desperate attempt to change something, anything. If Mikasa just ditches the scarf, the future would be different. And, for a moment, she did.

...And then she took it back.

Eren's losing to fate, but he's still trying to fight it. Which makes the accusation he's enslaved hit even harder.

Lamebot
Sep 8, 2005

ロボ顔菌~♡


Grisha never learned his lesson and sure did pay for it. First child he used as a tool betrays him to Marley for his own path to Eldian restoration and the second one goes even worse and gets most of the world genocided. Great Dad #1 would sire a child again a+++++

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Lamebot posted:

Grisha never learned his lesson and sure did pay for it. First child he used as a tool betrays him to Marley for his own path to Eldian restoration and the second one goes even worse and gets most of the world genocided. Great Dad #1 would sire a child again a+++++

To be fair, his own dad's response to his daughter getting fed to dogs by nazis was, "Thank you sir, may I have another?"

Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

If Ymir has been playing any angle other than what we have been shown then I also wouldn't be surprised if she actually was the one who let those pigs go, either of her own will or through some impossible paths fuckery it's somehow Eren that is responsible (Isayama would have to do a major asspull to explain how that could possibly work, though).

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Lamebot posted:

Grisha never learned his lesson and sure did pay for it. First child he used as a tool betrays him to Marley for his own path to Eldian restoration and the second one goes even worse and gets most of the world genocided. Great Dad #1 would sire a child again a+++++

Hey, Eren hasn't destroyed most of the world... yet. He might not even cross the fifty percent mark!

Really, it's hard to blame Grisha for trying again. Sure, his first attempt went incredibly bad, but he was a terrible father that time, using his son as a tool and letting someone else take the all important role of teaching Zeke how to play baseball.

It's understandable that he assumed raising Eren like a normal kid would go better. And by the time he started to realize just what he had on his hands, Eren was already teaching the neighbor kids about the cool crime of manslaughter.

Adopting Mikasa, though? That one's a clear lack of pattern recognition.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


Too bad we already know what the final panel will be because Isayama could have delivered the twist of the millenium by making the last shot of the story be one of the pigs making shifty eyes.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


...nevermind on season 4?

https://mobile.twitter.com/AoTWiki/status/1291238869795389440

bummer, yes, but it's good to not rush this

Kritzkrieg Kop
Nov 4, 2009


Freedom panel is so chilling....can't wait for it to be animated.

hatty
Feb 28, 2011




Pork Pro

Itíll be interesting to see how theyíre going animate the memory shards. Will it just be flashes and fades like Evangelion?

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


It'll probably be like the anime has been doing them already with the green neurons effect.

Tenzarin
Jul 24, 2007
.

Taco Defender

Was rereading the chapter and did anyone get some evangelion vibes from this.



Omg his hand!

bees x1000 posted:

It adds some more weight to the final panel. Talking to the baby, "you are free", not "we are free" Eren will never be free. A slave to fate, and then shackled with immeasurable guilt.

You make a really good point with this.

Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Aug 6, 2020

change my name
Aug 27, 2007

Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.



Yeah I'm confused, did Eren's decision to not intervene after seeing the kid would get flattened end up with his hand getting cut off, therefore altering the timeline and proving change is possible, but he just didn't notice?

AradoBalanga
Jan 3, 2013



hatty posted:

Itíll be interesting to see how theyíre going animate the memory shards. Will it just be flashes and fades like Evangelion?
Personally, I want them to be full throttle David Lynch. Go all in with the trippy nonsense.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


change my name posted:

Yeah I'm confused, did Eren's decision to not intervene after seeing the kid would get flattened end up with his hand getting cut off, therefore altering the timeline and proving change is possible, but he just didn't notice?

I think Eren did intervene? There's a shot of him beating the dudes up then carrying the kid back to his camp, which is where Mikasa finds him.

Terper
Jun 26, 2012




change my name posted:

Yeah I'm confused, did Eren's decision to not intervene after seeing the kid would get flattened end up with his hand getting cut off, therefore altering the timeline and proving change is possible, but he just didn't notice?
He did intervene, the kid just had his hand taken later.

change my name
Aug 27, 2007

Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.



Terper posted:

He did intervene, the kid just had his hand taken later.

Yeah I think I misread the first time

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Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


change my name posted:

Yeah I'm confused, did Eren's decision to not intervene after seeing the kid would get flattened end up with his hand getting cut off, therefore altering the timeline and proving change is possible, but he just didn't notice?

Eren intervened. The point of the scene is that in the future he saw he'd help the kid - but helping him would be hypocritical since he's going to kill them all, so what's the point?

So he tries to walk away, but he can't bring himself to do so. He compares himself to Reiner, a "half-assing piece of poo poo" for caring and getting involved despite having resolved himself to massacring them.

I've said it before, but I believe the theme here is that it's impossible to change the future Eren has seen - not because of some immutable order to the universe, but because every vision he's seen is a consequence of the decisions he's made leading up to them, and given the same circumstances he'll always make the same choices. It's just who he is.

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