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Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Pragmatic is probably a better word than reasonable.

My something I liked in this chapter- "If an organization only works if everyone in it is just, maybe the problem is the organization and not the people." Come to think of it there's a lot of pragmatism in this manga. That's one of the things that really set is apart from most other more emotional/idealistic manga and makes this one really something special.

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Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Simstim posted:

Finally in the last chapter she was talking about how she is a rotten person for just going with the flow instead of standing for something like Eren or that good-hearted police guy
Wow. I feel kind of dense now. I praised the interesting sentiment about how it was a sign of a bad organization if it couldn't handle normal/bad people in it without realizing that it was really talking about whatever conspiracy it is that Annie belonged to, and not the Military Police at all.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Zorak posted:

It's entirely possible that all the Titans are originally man made, and the experiment just went Horribly Bad somehow. Or they were man made as part of a giant eugenics "KILL THE POOR" type thing by the ruling class. They were happy when they lost that wall at the start of the series, after all, what with it reducing the "mouths to feed".
Wait, that's not quite how I remember it. It's been months since I read it, but I thought the issue was that, with all the refugees from the outer wall area in the middle wall, there were too many mouths to feed, so the ruling classes were happy to send them to their deaths with a hopeless attempt to drive back the titans.

I mean, I can't imagine anyone was happy to lose the outer wall. Even if they don't give a drat about the people out there, that's one less meatshield between you and death. Once they lost the wall, those people were superfluous, but the people in power would have been better off if they were alive and outside.

"Kill the poor" is a really silly comic book villain motivation. Real ruling classes don't want to kill the poor, they want to enslave and exploit them. They're not doing anyone any good if they're dead. It's just pointless dickishness.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Zorak posted:

And no, it's not really silly comic book villain motivation. Why do you think holocausts, mass-exterminations, and IMMIGRANTS GET OUT OF OUR COUNTRY stuff happens? Or any major political shift? It's less about "WE WANT MORE PEOPLE UNDER OUR CONTROL", and more "WE WANT CONTROL". And if a large swath of the population poses a potential risk to that control simply by being so expansive and over-populated that a reduction would simplify the rule without affecting the ruling class' quality of life, why wouldn't they take it assuming their focus is just on their control?
Xenophobia, nativism, ethnic cleansing, and holocausts all have to do with a group of "others" upsetting the balance/purity/rightful order of our society (to which they don't belong). And rather than a means of control, the whole concept is honestly really populist. Like religion, the passions it incites can be used to control people, but unless the poor have organized into some sort of unified rebel group, those in power don't have any interest in killing them. There are way more useful things to do with them.

What threat did the poor masses in the outer wall pose? Their labor made the economy larger, at little cost as they were rather neglected. Their presence made the higher/inner classes more secure. So what was so dangerous about them that they had to sacrifice all that?

Population control in a finite area makes some sense... but not only did they lose the population, they lost a fuckton of land to support the population. The population problem was made a whole lot worse by the loss of the outer wall.

It's also possible that they were trying to unify people through fear, as it seems like they'd been growing fairly complacent about the whole Titan threat, but from what we've seen of the inner wall, no one there is trying to drum up the fears for political gain- quite the opposite. They're trying their damnedest to make people feel safe and ignore the outside.


When you get right down to it, yes, I'm sure the origin of the Titans has something to do with some ideology of control- I'd bet a more idealistic origin rather than simply a pragmatic "control" motive- but as for what's been happening in the manga, that's in no way in the ruling class's interests. At all. I mean, even if the outer wall was a horrific population valve, the titans are now through the second wall. This fucks over the ruling class as much as anyone.

They may be selfish manipulative scum, but the ruling class is on the side of humanity at this point. The conspiracy's got to be external in some way.


Incidentally, I loving love how cynical this manga is. It's just such a wonderfully horrific setting. All that's left of humanity, cowering behind a few walls from unstoppable monsters. One by one the walls fall. Systems of power persist, and people use and manipulate each other as much as ever. Perhaps more than ever. And the goal is simply to delay the inevitable. Many people have explicitly lost hope for humanity, and just wish to personally live as long as they can. And heck, they're not wrong. As far as we know, this is the story of the sad death throes of humanity.

It's incredible.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Zorak posted:

Usually that's an excuse, yes. Justification does not equate to causa bella though. A lot of it has to do with redistribution of power and health, and reaffirmation of the power base by restricting the support to a select grouping.
That's not just the excuse at all. That's the real reason. I mean, Hitler didn't kill the Jews to consolidate power- he did it because he honestly thought that they were parasites on the German people and getting rid of them would make things better for the Germans. Right wing Americans aren't distrustful of Hispanic immigrants because some politician told them to be, they're distrustful because they honestly view them as a threat to their economic and cultural security (and the politicians capitalize on that). Ethnic groups in former Yugoslavia weren't pushed around at the behest of the economic elites, but by the honest belief by nationalists that Their Nation rightfully owned that land and it was stolen by [other ethnic group].

Those aren't smokescreens for the consolidation of power, those are fires.

... But I guess I'm straying from the point a bit here.

quote:

This conspiracy is way too big and important to the entire system of the walls for it not to be coming straight from the top to me. The highest officials have to be in on it.
The issue with the walls is an interesting one. We don't even know why it's being kept secret.

I mean, there is a conspiracy behind the ruling class, and the foundation of this world. I agree. The whole ruling structure's in on that too, I'm pretty sure.

I think that's a different conspiracy than the one Annie and the giant titan are part of. I think the Advance of the Giants is not part of the existing ruling class's plans. It's destroying everything that supports the ruling class... in fact, it makes more sense that the goal of these people isn't necessarily to wipe out humanity, but to wipe out the corrupt central establishment! Maybe. I'm not saying that's the case, but it makes more sense to me than the (undoubtedly selfish and corrupt) Saviors of Humanity, safe and in control behind their walls, wrecking their own perfect little sand castle society they've preserved.

Nilbop posted:

I know this manga is very dark but it's very far from the following the sad, whimpering end of humanity. We're following a bunch of kids get killed en masse as they wizz around on mechanical slingshots doing sonic spins with twin swords. There's friends and an awesome girl character and Eren is a stone's throw away from saying he just wants to protect his friends. Two things are guaranteed in the later life of this manga;
Well, yeah. I mean, I know things will get better and the good guys will win. Or at least, I think that's the case. This manga is dark enough that I can honestly believe it might Go There and end in defeat.

It's just painted such a wonderfully hopeless bleak picture- our protagonists rising from that depth and winning is going to be all the more incredible for how far down they were to begin with.

The setting isn't the story, and I'm sure the story will move along. But the setting man. The setting's just so loving terrible. I love it.

Sanguinia posted:

If there's one thing I never expect this story to do, its the expected thing. I think the secrets of the Titans aren't something we're able to predict yet, and most of the "clues" and "forshadowing," we've seen are red herrings.
On the other hand, anyone paying attention was pretty sure the female titan was Annie. And eventually it was revealed to be her, and not in a "Shock! It's her!" way, but a "Yeah, we know it's you," way.

Sometimes the obvious answer to a mystery is the right one.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Nilbop posted:

I don't know how anyone is getting the idea that there are factions of titans running around. Sasquatch was toying with Foreigner-kun because he is actually, get this, a sadistic giant monkey thing. He's that crazy monkey character manga authors love to throw in every now and then. None of the titans probably have any knowledge of what the 3d gear actually are considering they've really only begun their push back when the Colossal Titan kicked down the doors of whatever Wall that was, and perhaps this guy just thought he could gain points with Doctor Vegapunk by bringing the intel back.
Uh, there was a titan who knew a heck of a lot about 3D gear: Annie.

I don't get what's so hard to understand, or why so many words have to be said to get to the pretty simple conclusion that Orangutitan and whoever he represents, and Annie and whoever she represents, haven't had much contact. Two different factions. Not necessarily with conflicting goals, as we don't know any Titan's goal yet, but different factions.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Oh, right, I was also going to respond to this:

Nilbop posted:

I'm also getting slightly weary of it being the worst day in human history, ever, ever ever, again.
There's a very simple and well defined definition of "Worst Day for Humanity" and that is a wall being breached.

Humanity had three walls, and three potential "worst days," the third also being their last day. We're on worst day number two.


I've actually been struck by how well the story's been pacing itself with catastrophes. We're not just getting a series of horrible things to make us feel bad because they're freaky, we're getting a series of consequential things, that make us feel bad because of the dreadful implications.

It's pretty horrible/great.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Sarcophallus posted:

They're not entirely weightless, it's just that their composite density is incredibly low, giving a sense of "weightlessness" for their size.
And that's just for the big ones- to make them physically possible. For all we know the little ones are just as dense as humans are.


Really wonderful chapter. It's one of the clearest examples of the visceral and immediate feeling emotional roller coaster that makes this manga so good. It makes you feel very worried, then relieved, then pulls the rug out and leaves you panicking again, in a very convincing way. Over and over.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Urdnot Fire posted:

There are apparently factions among the Titans, or so has been hinted at in previous chapters. Said Titan was probably aligned with either Bigfoot or Annie's faction.
"Aligned" is a funny word for something as mindless as a (normal) titan. I don't think they're really capable of... politics. It's got to be something more primal. A recently converted titan "smelling of humans" or something is a good guess. Or it might be something else. These are a strange group of titans. Could be any number of things "off" about them.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Serious Frolicking posted:

Bittersweet? I wouldn't put it past this manga to end with the extinction of the human race.
Why not both? Eren has somehow saved humanity at last, but lost Mikasa. It's hard, and Eren is sad, but he looks at a world for the first time at peace, and for the first time safe... and he thinks, maybe the sacrifice was worth it. He resolves to live on, honoring her memory.

Then it turns out Eren hasn't actually won, and titans show up again and kill everyone.


The only thing I think we can count on in this manga is for things to swing wildly back and forth from absolute despair to a glimmer of hope against the odds... and back again.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




That anime trailer. My god. This is going to be something special.

davidHalestorm posted:

In a future anime thread, there's bound to be people who never read the manga before,I really want to read their reaction when Eren got "killed" by a random, scrub Titan he tried to fight, after pages of him swearing to be the best Titan killer ever. That scene sets the tone of the manga for me.
The great thing about that, for me at least, was that I bought it. I got the nihilistic unconventional tone right from the start, so when Eren got graphically eaten I thought his whole character was a fake out, and his friends were the real main characters.

So the manga successfully made me think the main character was dead in the middle of the story. That's pretty much never happened to me before.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Crazy theory for the sake of a crazy theory: Ymir is actually a Titan who transformed into a human, rather than the other way around. Ymir is a common Titan name.

Anime talk:
If we're going to get a "filler ending" there's an obvious and kind of awesome potential for a very thematically appropriate one: Humanity loses.

We get through this arc, perhaps, with the Titans winning and humanity retreating once again, and then they break through the last wall. Everyone dies, plot threads go unresolved, the mysteries are never answered, everything's hosed up and pointless, The End.

If there's any story where that kind of ending would work, it's this one.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Man, this is such a good manga. I just reread the whole thing, which helped a lot. I'd forgotten a lot of details in the long gaps between chapters. I mean heck, I had basically no idea who Ymir was until the last couple of chapters, so it was nice to go back to the training arc and see her and Christa and Sasha forming their group and actually knowing where all their stuff was going.

As of this last chapter, I think we finally have some real distinctive moments for each and every one of the training squad. Connie and Sasha found their villages, Christa and Ymir had their flashback, Reiner and Bertholt are about to have a flashback of their own... after all these years and one reread, I finally understand who the heck everyone actually is.

One interesting character detail I just picked up on is how in Sasha's flashback to her time training, she was being made fun of for the way she spoke. Ymir was pissed at her for denying her background basically, and said that she wasn't being herself unless she spoke naturally. Christa disagreed, denying that there was any "true self" or whatever to begin with.

Of course, now we know that Ymir started a new life and kept her old name, while Christa seems to have done the same, but left her old name behind.

I thought it was a neat detail.


Thinking Ymir's case over more as I read all this again, particularly considering the whole religion thing and the living titans in the walls and Ymir's ability to read the can Reiner couldn't, and the fact that she was apparently mindlessly killing people five years ago, I think there's not much doubt about the general gist of her story.

Long ago, before humanity retreated to the walls, titans were people who sacrificed themselves "to save a great many people," (somehow). Once they transformed they lost their minds, but they also lived forever, so 100 years later the titans invading through wall Maria were all once people before the fall. One of them managed to transform back into a human, in a way that we might end up learning (or getting hints about) in Reiner and Bertholt's upcoming flashback.


Thinking about the origin of the titans more broadly, if even the mindless killing machines were originally trying to save a great many people, then mightn't their purpose not be to kill all humans? I mean, for some reason that's what they do, but maybe they were made to kill something else, or maybe a different hostile group of people... like some sort of biological equivalent of nuclear weapons developed as a Strangelove style doomsday device to prevent a war, as a war where titans were employed would destroy everything.

Maybe, if that's the case, the development of the walls (using the same magic/technology/medicine that developed the titans) ruined everything. Once the leadership of one side had a reliably nuke-proof bunker, a first strike was possible, as there was no fear of retaliation, or the indiscriminate nature of the weapon in this case.

Though... if that's how it was, and the priests knew it, I don't see why they'd keep the nature of the walls a secret. Maybe it's because the fact that the walls are titans is kind of proof that the people who made the walls and the people who made the titans were one and the same?

But even then, as things are going horribly wrong here, the priest is sure that, "There's something more important than preventing the destruction of humanity" at stake. Maybe there's an even more important role the titans are playing, maybe there's something even more dangerous than titans out there in the wider world... and maybe there's something out there worth protecting- worth sacrificing all of humanity for out there. Something important that the people inside the walls could harm somehow, so the Titans are there to keep them inside and away from the Precious Thing.

Maybe there's something out there that can save all the people in the walls. After all, the priests have a religious objection to sealing the gates- perhaps that's because they know they'll have to let something in eventually. Or out. Or something.

So many mysteries! And the great bit is that this manga's been coherent and logical enough in the past that you feel like there really is some way to make reasonable assumptions and narrow down the possibilities. I don't really expect any of this speculation is true, but it feels like it could be, which makes it fun to speculate.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Dr_Amazing posted:

Still not really clear how the titans in the wall tie in.
Yeah, that's the sticky part. It makes it pretty clear that Titans aren't a force of nature, but a force of humanity.

Titans didn't just suddenly happen. The amount of organization and skill with regards to titans and titan transformations to make all the massive walls couldn't reasonably have been developed while humanity was being eradicated. And keep in mind the titans in the walls are more advanced than the wild ones- they're the 50 meter class titans- and not just a few of them. The people who made the walls knew their stuff very well, and had a very advanced organization (that probably lives on through the Church).

I'm pretty sure the bodies are burned for normal sanitary reasons. It's easier and cleaner than digging a bunch of mass graves.

The way Conny's village was transformed is indeed really interesting though. Once we know how that trick was pulled off, we'll know a lot more about the original nature of the titans.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Dr_Amazing posted:

I'm pretty sure that's the first time we've seen it happen. It's always possible the titans were a deliberate creation to advance humanity before it all went out of control.

It's important to note that the wall titan appears to be alive and conscious (looked like it's eye moved). Presumably sunlight hitting it would cause it to freak out or something. I imagine getting that many volunteers would be pretty hard so they must have had some way of controlling titans and forcing them into the walls.
I'm not sure, I think if the goal was saving humanity, maybe you could get that many volunteers. Especially if volunteering got your family promised a place within the new walls or something. In fact, with the number of people in the walls, and the number of people needed to make the walls, I wouldn't be surprised if the only way to get in would be to sacrifice a family member or something. (Outside the predictably corrupt ruling classes.)

Remember how the Church worship goes? People lock arms in three concentric circles. I wouldn't be surprised if the 50m titans in the wall all have their arms locked together the same way.

miscellaneous14 posted:

I'm gonna go with the theory that the wall-creating titans can't last forever and need to be replaced with new ones every so often, so they pick certain people that are or can be turned into the mega-titans to maintain the wall. Eren's dad was going to be one of these, but he decided to break the cycle and bust open the wall.

It's likely that people just turn into titans eventually for whatever reason, explaining why they couldn't just use the titans under their control to kill the rest. Anyone who's going to turn into one is probably sent out of the city or killed and burned by the church.
Eren's dad, or rather the 50m titan (probably Eren's dad), wasn't actually the one that broke a hole in the wall down the "armored titan" was the one that burst through the gate. It's not as obvious, as the armored titan isn't nearly so distinct looking, and I forgot about it until I reread it, but it's almost the more important of the two titans that attacked at the beginning.

That also gives us two very special human controlled titans to account for, so someone else in addition to (probably) Eren's dad is a Major Enemy.

As for the other bit, I imagine if people just spontaneously turned to titans, and they threw out people who would turn somehow, we'd have heard about people being disappeared all the time or something. And plus we know it can be controlled to some degree, as Conny's village got turned intentionally.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Dr_Amazing posted:

The big one kicked in the first wall inti the city. The armored Titan smashed the second wall to get into the big area behind it.
Oh, right. Just reread that part again. I was confused as I distinctly remembered that it had burst into an urban area, but I'd forgotten that there was a city on both sides of the wall.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Yeah, it really sounds like they're the only two ever captured. The sequence explaining all the experiments was about those two specifically, not past experiments.

They came from a very unique situation after all. That battle was the only time in all of history that the humans took territory from the titans. In other words they were stragglers that the humans could deal with at leisure. It's not exactly a simple matter to capture and transport titans in titan controlled territory.

Though I guess that was the plan with titan-Annie, and they came close to pulling it off.

Speaking of Annie, I'm pretty sure she just didn't want humans learning more about titans. Maybe how titans deal with human-titans like Eren specifically (wasn't he supposed to help her with the experiments the day they were killed?)

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Gyges posted:

They evacuated behind the second wall along with everyone else.
I don't recall them addressing those cities specifically, though I bet they did.

The cities themselves were probably safe, which is kind of interesting. I wonder if there might be some people out there who didn't evacuate, living in their own little oases in titan territory.

Also, I wonder if it might be easier (or at least safer) to get to one of those cities, scale the walls there and take the walls to Eren's hometown. Should be safe on top of the walls, right?

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Darth Walrus posted:

The big problem is that the main area of Wall Maria (the bit surrounded by the small 'blister' cities) is mainly used for food production. So you'd theoretically be safe from Titans if you stayed put, but... well, hope you like starvation.
That's why I figured only a few people could have stayed, not the whole population of the city.

Even in the cities there seem to be open areas that a small group of people might be able to cultivate. And if canned food is a thing that's not just in ancient ruins, a small group of people might be able to live off that for quite a while.

They've got rivers too- presumably fish.

It's just as likely that they all left and we'll never hear anything about them, but I think it's an interesting thought.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Eej posted:

It seems implied that the more intelligent Titans are actually human-Titans (the Colossal one, the Armoured one and Annie) while the stupid ones are weird conglomerations of regenerating flesh. They don't even digest what they eat.
Well, the couple panels of flashback we've gotten on Reiner/Bertholt's backstory, it looks like Ymir was a typical mindless man-eating titan. And she's a human now.

Plus I think we can kind of assume that the Sasquatch titan didn't breach the walls, but just crossed over itself and transformed a bunch of people on the other side. And all these titans are pretty mindless.

For a while I assumed what you did about the different types of titans, because the only ones we know have humans in them are the controlled ones, naturally the non-controlled ones are non-human, right? Well, that doesn't necessarily follow.

My guess is that they've all got people in them, but most of them were made in a way that gave them no control at all over their titan bodies. Even Eren had trouble with control at first.

Though it's far from a sure thing. For one thing, when titans are killed they just evaporate, and don't leave a human corpse behind. Some of them also seem a bit small to fit a whole person in their neck.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




That... was possibly the best way to reveal that. A tiny speech bubble out of nowhere in the background of another panel. It really drives home how totally insane the whole situation is.

I have to say, I'm not sure how I feel about the attack being the work of a few meddling kids. On the one hand, that probably explains why they hadn't thought through the consequences. But on the other hand, it's probably still just a plot by a larger organization. I'd guess that they only recently figured out how to make human titans, from birth, which is why they're all the same age. Including Eren.

I still badly want to know their motive... what could excuse killing off half of humanity. Or all of it, eventually. What else is there?

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Wow.

I like that the emotional climax of this chapter was Eren understanding the absolute enormity of what horrible evil people Ryner and Bertholdt really are, even as they pretended to be his honorable friends... rising with a righteous fury to oppose that unthinkable monster... and getting loving smashed in the face, falling impotently to the ground.

That's this manga in a nutshell. Understanding the horror of the world, being overwhelmed by a desire to oppose it, and getting loving punched in the face.

That said, I'm really loving curious as to the motives of these people who thought it was a good idea to kill a majority of humanity. I mean, not knowing the origin of the Titans, they are literally the most evil people in history. Even Hitler wasn't this ruthless or effective.

I badly want to know why.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




GoldenNugget posted:

I have the feeling that there's going to be some sort of twist where they are actually the good guys... Eren's not a bad guy but he's a titan. We still don't quite know their motive just yet so we'll have to see. Though they do appear as huge assholes at this point in the manga.
This isn't possible. I mean there's got to be more to them than we know, of course... as we don't have the faintest idea as to their motives. Sure we'll end up more sympathetic to them, but they can't be good guys. Too many people died thanks to them. This is as unambiguously evil as you can get, no matter the reason behind it.

And if I'm somehow wrong, it'll be incredible.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Sanguinia posted:

I think maybe you're going a little too far here. Even completely ignoring the possible "child soldier" angle, these two were under orders from a superior. This isn't a case of them being Hitler and masterminding a genocide. Your position is that we should hold the bomber pilot responsible for dropping a nuke rather than the president or general or whatever who directed it be dropped.

Obviously I WAS ONLY FOLLOWING ORDERS has limits as a justification and doesn't cover truly heinous/immoral acts which is why it doesn't apply to things like prison guards who execute POWs or people who intentionally target medics and whatnot, but "number of people who died from the act" isn't a reasonable metric for judging that. All these two did was break down a wall.
You're misinterpreting my point a bit. I was responding to, "They might be good guys". "They" in that case might have been talking about the kids we know specifically, but was referring to the alignment of their faction.

Yeah, it's true that they might be misguided child soldiers just following orders- a good deal less evil than Hitler- but their faction is pretty drat no-doubt-about-it bad. (Though I'm sure they'll have a relatively compelling motive, that I'm greatly looking forward to because I am utterly at a loss to imagine it.)

Also, they still seem to be working for their faction, even now. Considering they have a very good understanding of the magnitude of their crime, as they've seen the effects ripple through the remnants of humanity first hand in their years of being undercover, the fact that they're still loyal to their people makes them knowing accomplices at best now.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Excelsiortothemax posted:

You never now. The other titans learned how to modify their forms. It is entirely possible that he gets a mid battle upgrade. Not too out of genre for anime.

Otherwise he gets curb stomped.
You're totally missing the tone of this manga.

He's not going to pull out a mid fight upgrade and save the day. That's silly.

He's going to pull out a mid fight upgrade and get curb stomped anyway.

Crushing despair punctuated by ephemeral glimmers of hope that quickly fade back into crushing despair: That's the tone of this manga.

(The alternative of simply getting curb stomped without any upgrade is indeed a likely scenario as well.)

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Darth Walrus posted:

So, a two-cour anime. I'd say Annie's defeat seems like a logical endpoint, yes?
Well, that's probably as far as they could possibly go, considering the next arc still isn't really done and probably won't really be before the anime ends. Don't know if they could do it in 26 episodes though.

Though if they somehow do get as far as the manga currently is and then do an anime only ending, I'd hope it'd be along the lines of the walls being broken down and humanity being wiped out. The end. No answers to anything. I mean, it'd fit the tone of the story at least.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Dr_Amazing posted:

Attack OF the Titans makes way more sense.
Also what the Japanese title actually means. Personally I like Advance of the Titans. Seems more ruthless and unstoppable, while being less deliberate than "attack". Like the Titans are a force of nature or something.

But I guess it's going to be known as Attack on Titan. I guess that's not too bad. I mean, if you expect an attack and get... that guard in the first episode/chapter facing his first titan and deciding to take the kids and run out of sheer terror... an expectation of an attack subverted into pure despair, rather than a brave strike against the foe you were waiting for, you get a titan's foot stomping on a human face forever... I guess that's pretty cool too.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Schwarzwald posted:

No. It really, really isn't.
It's about the dream of attacking Titans.

And it's also about dreams being ground into a fine powder under the weight of cruel reality.

AnonSpore posted:

Or he could just be a sentient titan who has always been a titan, no human in his neck.
I get the impression that even mindless titans have humans in their neck. The people of Connie's village were transformed into mindless titans after all.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Serious Frolicking posted:

The thing is, they have captured titans before. The back of the neck is the only weak point, so why wouldn't they dissect the titans while focusing on that part? That scouting legion researcher is far from stupid, so I can't believe she never tried a dissection.

Perhaps if someone spends long enough in titan form their human body is absorbed into the titan. Considering how Eren gets fused with his titan body it wouldn't be surprising. Assuming this is true, then Eren isn't exceptional because he can turn into a titan, but rather because he can change back.

Couldn't disect them because they evaporate as soon as they die. You'd have to carefully vivisect them, which I can believe they haven't gotten around to yet.

And even if they did... mindless titans might not have very well preserved humans left in them. Just bits that used to be human or something.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




I legitimately thought that this manga was cruel and nihilistic enough that this 2 dimensional shounen protagonist full of burning passion and ~dreams~ could have been killed off, with Mikasa and Armin being the real main characters. I was so impressed that they'd do that that I was kind of disappointed when it turned out he was alive. It all ended up awesome though, so no complaints.

of bees posted:

Eren has all the markings of a decoy protagonist, so for at least an episode (maybe two) I bet it's gonna look like one of Mikasa and Armin is the real protagonist. Reading the anime thread is going to be so much fun.
The reactions are going to be fun, all the "just you wait " from the folks who've read the manga is going to be insufferable for me though... I'm going to have to make a point of just not posting, or I'll almost certainly make an rear end of myself bitching about oblique spoilers.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Nilbop posted:

I'm still not sold with the idea of Reiner and Bertholdt being sent in with the most important jobs in the Titan nation at the tender age of, what, 12? It's just nudging the manga away from the survival-mystery-horror niche and more into the mainstream. Which I'm not saying it wouldn't have had to do to keep going, but it just doesn't gel for me right now.
It does seem really weird. The only way I could imagine it is if the technology to turn people into controlled titans was only 12 years old at the time, and the process had to be started at birth.

Which would make sense actually, as all the controlled titans we've seen have been more or less the same age.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




The Devil Tesla posted:

Post from the anime thread:
I would guess that guy's read or heard about the manga and he's being a troll. I would guess.

Though it would be hilarious otherwise.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Dr_Amazing posted:

We don't really know when that happened. They could have been undercover and couldn't give away the fact that titans can transform to possible witnesses.
It's an interesting scenario... especially if the third guy was a human titan too. And if Ymir knew who they were and attacked them deliberately. Or something. Who knows why she would, though.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Dan7el posted:

The larger Titans wouldn't be able to follow people at all, and I doubt they'd have the ability to dig through the solid rock with any kind of ease at all. They didn't penetrate the wall, right?
The wall was, umm... reinforced. With Titans.

Also, people need to eat. So they need farms. So they need to live on the surface. If you're asking why they didn't have military grade bunkers underneath their farms... no one thought the walls could ever fall, so they weren't going to bother. And honestly, if their walls did fall, and there were titans in the fields... you couldn't farm anyway, so you'd be just as hosed.

Not to mention carving out tunnels for however many tens of thousands of people to live in is... really god drat hard. You can't just do that at a whim.

It's a kind of silly idea, to be honest. Not that miles and miles of giant loving walls aren't silly in their own way, engineering-wise, but it does look like there's a good excuse for them at least.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Jackard posted:

The camera focuses on Reiner in episode three when the kids ask Eren if he saw the Armored titan.
I had to make an effort not to laugh or react to that, as I was watching it with someone who hadn't read the manga.

Somehow that made it even funnier to me.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




I don't think Titans are necessarily a reference to myth at all, at least not to the point where we can use myth to guess plot points, but I'm pretty drat sure that painting was an inspiration for the visual horror.

My mother saw the first episode and her first reaction was, "It reminds me of that creepy Goya painting."

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Breaky posted:

Yeah but all of those titans had no problem attacking them at night.
A fact that the explicitly said to be strange, if I remember right. They were pretty sure they'd be safe there for the night.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Pensive posted:

The best part is going to be next week. Assuming they don't switch events around at all, Erin is going to appear to be unceremoniously and with little warning killed off about half way through the episode. We're then going to have about 3 or 4 episodes until the reveal/confirmation of Erin-titan's identity, where it appears as if Mikasa is the new protagonist.
I love that the end credits is so Mikasa centered. People will see that and think how much sense it makes, especially when she sees that wistful looking Erin at the end. It'll be so obvious to the anime viewers that Mikasa was the protagonist the whole time, and Erin was just her important motivation, and a symbol of dreams being crushed.

I have no idea how I'm going to get through the next few episodes, as I'm watching with a couple other people who haven't read the manga. They're going to ask me, "Wait, did that really just happen? He's dead?" and... I'll have to be really careful.

I mean, just this latest episode, at the start, I had to pause to answer a question, "Wait, it's been like 5 years... where's the colossal titan been all that time?" As it happens I'd paused on Bertoldt's introduction still, where the instructor says a couple words about him. It was really hard not to laugh.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




An amusingly accurate prediction from the anime thread:

Fingers of Fury posted:

I think they become uncertain about Ahab's mental state but he offers up such a large bounty for Mr. Dick that they kind of just ignore the crazy. We only need the colossal titan to bite of Eren's leg for this discussion to become relevant. He only needs the top half of his legs to work the cord thingies right?

For about a minute or so before Eren gets eaten, at least.

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Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Dr_Amazing posted:

Couldn't she have just straight up murdered him? Stab him and push him off the wall? No one would be doing forensics on the sea of bodies as they're bringing them to be burned.
That'd be quite a stab wound...

Actually... that is kind of curious. In Trost there was the first chaotic battle to help the civilians evacuate, and then there was a second battle to lure the titans into the corner, and apparently lot of people died (off screen) during that, but once they were up on the walls, they should have been safe. The battles were over then. It was just canons and scouting legion after that.

So how did Marco die?

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